Hilarious email from my assembly subcontractor

[mikeselectricstuff]

Hi Mike,
I need your help if you can?
We have a customer who has reverse engineered an LED board which is used as a fire effect, the original board was made up with conventional LED's and they have redesigned using surface mount RGB LED's.
The boards have been assembled however we now have a problem in the fact that they did not think about how to program the board to give it the effect they need. Is this something you could help us out with or guide us to what we would need to do? I have attached some pictures of the board.

(pics of a board with a PIC, a load of LEDs and a couple of ULN2003 drivers)

 

[daqq]

  By program do they mean upload the firmware, or program the firmware? I've seen a beautifully designed PCB where the designer somehow forgot about the ISP signals...

[BravoV]

The main question is how much they're willing to spend or pay you Mike ?

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

Define help.

[NivagSwerdna]

Sounds like a fun project. Ask them for a video of the original in action.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Theye didn't realise that the PIC needed code. There is an ISP header - they obviously just copied another product and expected it to work. Guessing their normal products are dumb LED lighting strips.
 

I'm too busy, and don't want clueless customers - pointed them towards the Microchip consultant list. Suspect they may get a surprise when they get a quote for writing the code...

[CJay]

(pics of a board with a PIC, a load of LEDs and a couple of ULN2003 drivers)

 

Well that sounds fun, I've had similar conversations with garage owners who have decided they're going to copy things like chassis dynos, brake testers and wheel balancers, they see the pile of bits and don't think about the software that sticks them all together.

[Zucca]

Definitely something for your muppet alert area Mike...

I think here they can help your customer:

www.youhavenoideawecanhelp.com

[medical-nerd]

Hiya

Theye didn't realise that the PIC needed code. There is an ISP header - they obviously just copied another product and expected it to work. Guessing their normal products are dumb LED lighting strips.
 

I'm too busy, and don't want clueless customers - pointed them towards the Microchip consultant list. Suspect they may get a surprise when they get a quote for writing the code...

Just out of interest since I've absolutely no idea - what's the ballpark quote for doing such a coding project?

Cheers

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

Just out of interest since I've absolutely no idea - what's the ballpark quote for doing such a coding project?

Where?

[sokoloff]

Sounds like a fun project. Ask them for a video of the original in action.

Would be a fun project for a customer who knew they needed code.

A customer who gets to the point where there's a pile of physical boards already assembled and only then discovers that their project plan is missing a five-figure, 5-8 week item? A lot less fun, not because the customer is necessarily terrible to work with, but because they're now in a super-grumpy mood. (Sure, it's from their own doing, but still it sucks to be the guy who comes in trying to help someone who thought they were going to be profiting X now and instead will be profiting X/2 and not for a while.)

I'd love to do the coding for the first customer.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Depends a lot on the spec. If they have a file of the animation they want ( and it fits in the flash) it's a couple of hours work, however I rather suspect this customer hasn't, and has no clue what they mean by "fire effect". If they have the original fitting you could capture the data and hope the data is short enough to fit, but even that's probably 4-6x the work.
if the original has some clever generative algorithm, then unless you pull their code it could be a lot of work.
I wouldn't touch a job like this with a long pole.

[Brumby]

Unless you had a video clip that clearly demonstrates the effect, I wouldn't touch it either.  There's no guarantee the "effect" you came up with would be what they want.  That would turn into a very painful exercise.

Even if they did - it's not the sort of project that would appeal to me.

[CJay]

Sounds like a fun project. Ask them for a video of the original in action.

Would be a fun project for a customer who knew they needed code.

A customer who gets to the point where there's a pile of physical boards already assembled and only then discovers that their project plan is missing a five-figure, 5-8 week item? A lot less fun, not because the customer is necessarily terrible to work with, but because they're now in a super-grumpy mood. (Sure, it's from their own doing, but still it sucks to be the guy who comes in trying to help someone who thought they were going to be profiting X now and instead will be profiting X/2 and not for a while.)

I'd love to do the coding for the first customer.

Plus they've already ripped off the design which means they're cheap, have limited understanding of the product and won't have a clue about software development so getting anything like a reasonable payment out of them is going to be like squeezing blood out of a stone.

I feel for the assemblers because they're stuck in the middle and it's possible they may not get paid but I would not want to go anywhere near it either.

[Berni]

Hah nice one! 

Yeah people who have a little clue about a subject are the most confident. They know enough to recognize components and wire them together by a photo or diagram, yet still have no idea how any of it works.

Reminds me of a guy who asked me about modifying the code in some automatic cat litter box that was run by a PIC. Not only was the chip most likely read protected, but even if code could be read it would need hefty reverse engineering of that horrible assembler

[X]

I have this terrible feeling of déjà vu...

[mikeselectricstuff]

Plus they've already ripped off the design which means they're cheap, have limited understanding of the product and won't have a clue about software development so getting anything like a reasonable payment out of them is going to be like squeezing blood out of a stone.

Well as regards actual payment, when I used to do this sort of job I sent code-protected parts in the protos, and only released the code when my invoice was paid.

[T3sl4co1l]

Wow!  It's a cargo cult, refined slightly!

Tim

[schmitt trigger]

Most likely the "redesign" no only involved replacing thru LEDs with SMT ones, but also involved some "Muntzing" and replacement of components to remove some cost from the original board

[NivagSwerdna]

Depends a lot on the spec. If they have a file of the animation they want ( and it fits in the flash) it's a couple of hours work, however I rather suspect this customer hasn't, and has no clue what they mean by "fire effect".

Agreed.  It might be a bit subjective as to the acceptability of the end result.
I wonder how many they have assembled. 

[CJay]

Plus they've already ripped off the design which means they're cheap, have limited understanding of the product and won't have a clue about software development so getting anything like a reasonable payment out of them is going to be like squeezing blood out of a stone.

Well as regards actual payment, when I used to do this sort of job I sent code-protected parts in the protos, and only released the code when my invoice was paid.

I would do the exact same, I meant that they'd balk in the face of a reasonable quote/estimate for the work, I could have phrased it better.

[BrianHG]

My price, 1k$ to just look at the thing they have built and read the spec for only 10 minutes max.
500$/hour, including travel time, snack and lunch, payed in 1 day increments of 10 hours blocks.
Any post help incurs a new additional 10 hour block day charge or 5k$

Then, I would take the minimum 6k$-11k$ and enjoy a weekend out...

However, I happen to have a little time on my hands right now, otherwise, I would say no.

Though I already done a 1 day 6k$ job in the past, it was a motor controller PCB with USB and microcontroller.  The guy was in a fix and paid, however, at least he knew what he was doing.  He was happy with the end product and now has me on his 'Ohhhh shit, this must be done in 1-2 day, and work properly out of the box emergency problem solver...'  He also fired his main engineer after seeing how I patched up and caught something like over 20 errors in his original design during that 1 day.

[tszaboo]

What, you mean electronics is different than cogs? Like you put it together and it doesnt just magically work?

My suggestion would be to scrap the boards, and order new ones where the supplier programmed the micros before they go on PCB.
If they take the suggestion, they have money enough money to pay you as consultant.

[Berni]

Oh and on the topic of well defined specs. There was a guy who wanted a thing that blinks a led light with a pattern and the only "documentation" that he would give on the blinking pattern was him gesturing with his hands while saying "Blip....blip.blip". When asked about timings for each blip he would just show it again.

[chris_leyson]

You can't make this stuff up can you, absolutely brilliant. I hope the production run wasn't too big 

[Rick Law]

Hi Mike,
I need your help if you can?
We have a customer who has reverse engineered an LED board which is used as a fire effect, the original board was made up with conventional LED's and they have redesigned using surface mount RGB LED's.
The boards have been assembled however we now have a problem in the fact that they did not think about how to program the board to give it the effect they need. Is this something you could help us out with or guide us to what we would need to do? I have attached some pictures of the board.

(pics of a board with a PIC, a load of LEDs and a couple of ULN2003 drivers)

 

This is eye-opening.

I didn't think someone with the capability of replicating a PCB could be dumb enough not to know that an MCU requires code to work.  I am amazed.

[sokoloff]

This is eye-opening.

I didn't think someone with the capability of replicating a PCB could be dumb enough not to know that an MCU requires code to work.  I am amazed.

I suspect this isn't the first device they've ripped off reverse engineered. "Just match the little white numbers on the little black things and you're good" has worked up until now...

[schmitt trigger]

Unfortunately, they not only reverse engineer a working product, but cost reduce it as well.

Those transient voltage suppressors, don't need them. Why the premium opamp, we have plenty of LM358s. Those film capacitors sure are expensive, substitute them by 'lytics....and so forth.

[sokoloff]

Why the premium opamp, we have plenty of LM358s.

Best of both worlds: get an LM358 with little white markings that match the original part...

[AndyC_772]

You can't make this stuff up can you, absolutely brilliant. I hope the production run wasn't too big 

I hope it was huge. I'd happily write some code that will save a massive pile of kit from landfill, and it's not like it's safety critical or liable to infringe anyone's IP.

I get a pay day, the boards don't have to be scrapped after all, customers get their blinky-blinky light things, and the OEM gets a suitably costly lesson in engineering that they won't forget.

Everybody wins.

[nctnico]

You can't make this stuff up can you, absolutely brilliant. I hope the production run wasn't too big 

I hope it was huge. I'd happily write some code that will save a massive pile of kit from landfill, and it's not like it's safety critical or liable to infringe anyone's IP.

I get a pay day, the boards don't have to be scrapped after all, customers get their blinky-blinky light things, and the OEM gets a suitably costly lesson in engineering that they won't forget.

Everybody wins.

I agree. Sounds like a fun project to me. Every once in 10 times it gets powered on it does the knight rider effect ofcourse 

[Rick Law]

This is eye-opening.

I didn't think someone with the capability of replicating a PCB could be dumb enough not to know that an MCU requires code to work.  I am amazed.

I suspect this isn't the first device they've ripped off reverse engineered. "Just match the little white numbers on the little black things and you're good" has worked up until now...

That people "ripped off reverse engineered" wasn't the surprise to me.  What did surprise me was that the folks who did that was too didn't realize that an MCU needs code to function.

I suppose, it is silly of me to expect thief to be intelligent.

I recall a TV show on dumb things: two or three thugs who tried to rob a car repair shop and was told the manager with the key wouldn't be there till 10am (forgot what time, so I made the 10am part) , so come back later.  The thugs did came back at the suggested time, and the police was waiting...

This is the intelligence of the level of a chicken...

[schmitt trigger]

Poor chickens, it’s not fair to insult them like that.

YouTube is full of dumb crook videos.

[amyk]

My first thought was those bigclivedotcom videos too... and if I remember correctly, he even posted a link to the software for one of them.

Also, you can find plenty of code online for the flame effect already...

[NiHaoMike]

I hope it was huge. I'd happily write some code that will save a massive pile of kit from landfill, and it's not like it's safety critical or liable to infringe anyone's IP.

I get a pay day, the boards don't have to be scrapped after all, customers get their blinky-blinky light things, and the OEM gets a suitably costly lesson in engineering that they won't forget.

Everybody wins.

To add a twist, offer a massively discounted rate if they agree for the code to be open source.

[ttelectronic]

 

[AndyC_772]

To add a twist, offer a massively discounted rate if they agree for the code to be open source.

Why would I do that?

[bson]

Plus they've already ripped off the design which means they're cheap, have limited understanding of the product and won't have a clue about software development so getting anything like a reasonable payment out of them is going to be like squeezing blood out of a stone.

^ this

Plus they ripped off someone else's hardware.  What would make anyone think they'd ever get actually paid for firmware?  Dump 'em.

[sokoloff]

Wire transfer up front before delivery of code solves that problem.

[james_s]

Seems like a potentially fairly easy problem to solve. There's probably some teenager out there who would be happy to write the code for a few hundred bucks. I have friends whose kids are coding by the time they're 5 years old, in the not too distant future consumer level software development could end up being a minimum wage starter gig like flipping burgers as much larger portions of the population learn to do it at a young age and it becomes nothing special.

[StillTrying]

I can't help wondering if they kept calling the PCB assembler complaining that the things don't work.

[Nusa]

Tell them to contact the people who made the original version of the board and negotiate rights to the original software with any modifications necessary.

[Monkeh]

Is the customer treez?

[Berni]

Seems like a potentially fairly easy problem to solve. There's probably some teenager out there who would be happy to write the code for a few hundred bucks. I have friends whose kids are coding by the time they're 5 years old, in the not too distant future consumer level software development could end up being a minimum wage starter gig like flipping burgers as much larger portions of the population learn to do it at a young age and it becomes nothing special.

If the software that's already shipping with some rushd electronics devices today is so bad how bad is it gonna get when a bunch of teenagers write it.

Tho I don't se it happening anytime soon. All the times they tried to teach my schoolmates programming in high school and then university it never worked. Seams like you have to be interested in it to really learn it. With how kids these days seam to have shorter and shorter attention spans I'm guessing it's going to be even more difficult to get them to be interested in programming.

[james_s]

I don't know about that. When I was in school it was only the dweebs who were into computers and did any programming, I knew only a small handful of people even as late as highschool. Now like I mentioned I have several friends with young kids who are already coding, everyone uses computers now and it has lost its stigma. Sure not everyone is going to go on to be a brilliant software developer but with so many more people getting their feet wet at a young age along with a huge push for people to go into STEM education later on there are bound to be a lot of programmers. On top of that look at the software development process these days, so much of it is mobile apps and web pages, various forms of Agile and DevOps have taken over, nobody cares about quality anymore, just ship it now, fix it "later" with frequent or even continuous releases. It's set up for a race to the bottom where combined with increasingly powerful hardware writing good code is seen as less and less important.

Now there are areas that are still going to require skilled developers - medical devices, avionics, safety critical stuff, but that's a relatively small portion of the jobs.