Hiring Freelance Engineer. Experience?

[iampoor]

I have a pretty specific project in mind that is wayyyyy out of my design expierence/comfort zone. Naturally the topic of hiring a freelance engineer has arose. I am looking to do the project in 3 stages (dsp pcb design, sigma studio design, control microprocessor design)

Im looking to create a mulitap delay effects processor, with 8 seconds of maximum delay at 96khz, with 8 individual taps. Individual control over  the delay time of each tap, and feedback would be done within the dsp. The dsp board would have exernal inputs for a control voltage to modify the delay time/feedback of each tap. The Analog devices Sharc processor along with sigmastudio seem to provide a very good platform. Of course, he stock sigma studio multitap module will have to be edited to provide 8 seconds of delay, haha


Ive been looking at websites like elancer.com, and the number of engineers and freelancers is mind bogling. Im not sure how to ensure a reasonable quality design, since I would have to pay them, build a prototype, and then hope it works.

What have your expierences been with freelance engineers?

I have a gut feeling Im going to have to save up alot of money, and hire a real pro, and not take so many risks.... 

Sorry if this post is vague, is been a long day, and Ive already written enough essays for today. 

[nctnico]

The best thing to do is outsource the entire design but demand you get copyright of the sourcecode and diagrams. Secondly don't push a particular solution ahead. Chances are someone has a much better solution on the shelf. If I take on a project I start the design from scratch so I'm not designing someone else's errors in.

[Someone]

Secondly don't push a particular solution ahead.

Great advice. The above requirements could be met with any of DSP/CPU/FPGA implementations with/without various types of external RAM. Ideally the chosen engineer could develop on the optimal solution but their experience may strongly bias the choice of solution (purely from time needed in learning an unfamiliar platform for instance), so there may need to be a bit of back and forth discussing proposals with different contractors to select the right match.

To the OP, good luck meeting your power budget!

[iampoor]

The best thing to do is outsource the entire design but demand you get copyright of the sourcecode and diagrams. Secondly don't push a particular solution ahead. Chances are someone has a much better solution on the shelf. If I take on a project I start the design from scratch so I'm not designing someone else's errors in.

Interesting. I was planning on doing alot of the basic hardware. Maybe Ill finish that, and then outsource the rest of the design. My original idea of using Sigmastudio comes down to easily being able to customize the software side. I suppose most of it will come down to he engineers preference, after all, if they can deliver, I wont complain!   
Thanks for the pointers!

Secondly don't push a particular solution ahead.

Great advice. The above requirements could be met with any of DSP/CPU/FPGA implementations with/without various types of external RAM. Ideally the chosen engineer could develop on the optimal solution but their experience may strongly bias the choice of solution (purely from time needed in learning an unfamiliar platform for instance), so there may need to be a bit of back and forth discussing proposals with different contractors to select the right match.

To the OP, good luck meeting your power budget!

True, Im slowly learning that! Ive already had an offer for an FPGA solution. I guess we will see what offers come in, already go a reeeeaaaaallllyyy cheap one from China. That scares me haha

Thanks!

[AndyC_772]

Speaking as a consulting engineer...

- Define exactly what it is you need the product to do, as clearly and thoroughly as you possibly can. Be specific. A good engineer will help you by asking relevant questions, and will produce the initial design specification document if necessary, but won't know what it is you actually want.

- There's a lot to go in that specification: physical form factor, power, environmental conditions, regulatory requirements, product lifespan, serviceability, production volumes, type of end user, customer expectations, and of course, the actual feature set you want. Think about all of these things; they can have a dramatic effect on the finished product.

- What do you need the engineer to provide? Schematics? PCB layout? Physical prototypes? Mechanical enclosure? What documentation will you need? Software / firmware / configuration? Do you need a manufacturing test process developing as well?

- How will both parties determine whether or not the finished project is acceptable? Think about this early on, it's something you'll need to have already agreed on *before* handover.

- If you have an idea of how a project might be implemented then that's great, but don't insist on it unless you have to. I'll be much more able to provide you with a design that's robust, reliable and delivered in a reasonable time scale if it's actually my design, using a majority of components I already know, rather than one I've 'inherited'.

- Only once you've agreed that specification, will you be likely to get an accurate estimate of cost. You an ask any engineer's hourly rate, of course, but that tells you nothing about the overall project cost until the scope of the project and its time scale are known.

- Asking for a quote before approving a week's work is fine. Asking for a quote before approving a two hour job is not. Quotes take time to prepare, and that time will get paid for.

- It's tempting to insist on outright ownership of the finished design, but think very carefully about the implications. If all the hardware and software will be completely yours to do what you like with, then they have to be developed completely from scratch for you and only for you, and guess who is paying for that!

- On the other hand, if you can still make and sell your product with a licensed design from the engineer, then that engineer is free to use their own pre-existing libraries of schematics and code, which makes your design quicker, cheaper and lower risk. Unless you have a good business reason why you *need* complete ownership of the IP, you're probably better off without.

- That said: Do not, ever, allow yourself to be held to ransom over CAD data. If you're ever refused a copy of the original schematics, PCB files and source code, then an alarm bell should start ringing. If an engineer does a good job, you'll go back next time you need something doing anyway. If the only reason you use an engineer for a second time is because they're holding your design hostage, then that's a recipe for a bad relationship. Walk away before that happens.

- You mention concern that you have to "hope" it works. You're paying a professional to do a job, and responsibility to make sure it works is theirs, so don't be afraid to make this point if you have any doubt about it.

- Important exceptions to this are: if you're agreed in advance that the work is experimental in nature, or if part of the design is yours. If you give an engineer a part of the design, then that part is your responsibility, and so is anything else that doesn't work as a result of problems with that part.

[iampoor]

Speaking as a consulting engineer...

- Define exactly what it is you need the product to do, as clearly and thoroughly as you possibly can. Be specific. A good engineer will help you by asking relevant questions, and will produce the initial design specification document if necessary, but won't know what it is you actually want.

Hey, thanks for posting such a detailed reply. I really appreciate it!!

Right. Can never be too specific right? Im thinking I will build a pdf of specifications. I will list the current objectives, and then also have a category of things that I would like to implement in the future (software wise), that way the hardware can be designed to accommodate.

- There's a lot to go in that specification: physical form factor, power, environmental conditions, regulatory requirements, product lifespan, serviceability, production volumes, type of end user, customer expectations, and of course, the actual feature set you want. Think about all of these things; they can have a dramatic effect on the finished product.

Right. I already have the form factor and mechnical aspects designed. I will have to drill down many ore of these before development tho. Thanks for the list!

- What do you need the engineer to provide? Schematics? PCB layout? Physical prototypes? Mechanical enclosure? What documentation will you need? Software / firmware / configuration? Do you need a manufacturing test process developing as well?

I will need schematics, PCB layout, firmware/configuration, and possibly software (depending on he final platform etc.)

- How will both parties determine whether or not the finished project is acceptable? Think about this early on, it's something you'll need to have already agreed on *before* handover.

This seems like something that would be good to get legal advice on? Ultimately, I wan a working product without bugs. Again, this seems like something where I would need to clearly define each feature, how it will work (within the product, not on an engineering level), and what it is expected to do.

- If you have an idea of how a project might be implemented then that's great, but don't insist on it unless you have to. I'll be much more able to provide you with a design that's robust, reliable and delivered in a reasonable time scale if it's actually my design, using a majority of components I already know, rather than one I've 'inherited'.


- Only once you've agreed that specification, will you be likely to get an accurate estimate of cost. You an ask any engineer's hourly rate, of course, but that tells you nothing about the overall project cost until the scope of the project and its time scale are known.

- Asking for a quote before approving a week's work is fine. Asking for a quote before approving a two hour job is not. Quotes take time to prepare, and that time will get paid for.

Good point. My original idea came from having lots of simple software flexibility, but I dont want to force a square through a round hole! I will list that seperatly, more like "here was my initial thought, please share your view"?

Thanks for he heads up. Is it standard to ask for a quote and then pay exactly that, regardless of the actual development time, or in this industry is a quote more of an estimate? Im sure its done both ways, depending on the job, and skills of the negotiator. 

- It's tempting to insist on outright ownership of the finished design, but think very carefully about the implications. If all the hardware and software will be completely yours to do what you like with, then they have to be developed completely from scratch for you and only for you, and guess who is paying for that!

- On the other hand, if you can still make and sell your product with a licensed design from the engineer, then that engineer is free to use their own pre-existing libraries of schematics and code, which makes your design quicker, cheaper and lower risk. Unless you have a good business reason why you *need* complete ownership of the IP, you're probably better off without.

This is where it gets interesting. As far as I know, my product will be the only of its kind on the marketplace. Of course, its a pretty small market, and many devices have similar functionality, but not to the extent I want to implement it.

Is there a "standard" way of doing this? I dont want the designer to sell or market a very similar product to other companies. Would I license it "conditionally"? IE: XXX or a certain percentage of he design has to be modified if licensed to another company?  Again this seems like another good place to get legal council, to protect both parties. Nothing about the product is 100% unique (from an engineering point of view), just a new way of presenting it, if that makes sense. So it will appear like a "novel" idea o he consumer.

 

- That said: Do not, ever, allow yourself to be held to ransom over CAD data. If you're ever refused a copy of the original schematics, PCB files and source code, then an alarm bell should start ringing. If an engineer does a good job, you'll go back next time you need something doing anyway. If the only reason you use an engineer for a second time is because they're holding your design hostage, then that's a recipe for a bad relationship. Walk away before that happens.

This seems like something that should be discussed and agreed upon before he project even starts. Otherwise, that could be a nightmare! Wonder how many people have gotten burned this way.....

Ultimately I want to have a working relationship with a true professional, so I can have someone to outsource other projects to. 

- You mention concern that you have to "hope" it works. You're paying a professional to do a job, and responsibility to make sure it works is theirs, so don't be afraid to make this point if you have any doubt about it.

- Important exceptions to this are: if you're agreed in advance that the work is experimental in nature, or if part of the design is yours. If you give an engineer a part of the design, then that part is your responsibility, and so is anything else that doesn't work as a result of problems with that part.

True. Im thinking I will only do the basic mechanical layout of he PCB's (encoder locations In/Out jacks etc.)

Thanks so much for the detailed reply! Extremely helpful! Are you a full-time consultant? 

[nctnico]

You could work together with the engineer you hire. If the persone tells you which parts need to be used you can design a PCB using those. I have done several projects where I designed the hardware on a 'conceptual level' and wrote the firmware.

[AndyC_772]

This seems like something that would be good to get legal advice on? Ultimately, I wan a working product without bugs. Again, this seems like something where I would need to clearly define each feature, how it will work (within the product, not on an engineering level), and what it is expected to do.

You don't need legal advice for this, but you may need some technical help. Defining acceptability criteria can be hard in some instances, but in others, it's obvious by inspection.

The key thing is to be realistic about what's achievable. I once did an audio project which required the ability to mute an output under certain conditions, and my customer was adamant that it had to be "silent" - which, of course, is just not technically possible.

You won't get a product that's "without bugs". What you should get, though, is one in which there are no major defects which detract from the essential purpose and utility of the product. Nothing of any complexity is ever bug-free, though the more debugging time you're prepared to pay for, the fewer bugs there are likely to be.

Normally I'd fix any significant bugs that turn out to be my fault free of charge, for some reasonable period after the design has been deemed complete and handed over. Any bug that's not my fault will also still get fixed if at all possible, though I'll charge for my time in this case.

Is it standard to ask for a quote and then pay exactly that, regardless of the actual development time, or in this industry is a quote more of an estimate? Im sure its done both ways, depending on the job, and skills of the negotiator. 

The more specific you can be about what you want, the more likely it is you'll be able to get a firm quote for it. The more vague your specification, the less accurate the estimate.

What you can't do, is ask for a firm quote based on a vague spec - and if you do manage to get one, don't expect it to remain valid if you then start adding requirements.

The golden rule, is to decide what you want, and then don't change your mind once development has begun. Changes cost money, and the later in the process they're made, the more expensive they become. This is especially true of any request that's of the form "can you just...", or "can you allow for...".

Is there a "standard" way of doing this? I dont want the designer to sell or market a very similar product to other companies. Would I license it "conditionally"? IE: XXX or a certain percentage of he design has to be modified if licensed to another company?  Again this seems like another good place to get legal council, to protect both parties. Nothing about the product is 100% unique (from an engineering point of view), just a new way of presenting it, if that makes sense.

Pragmatically, there has to be a degree of trust involved, and if you instinctively don't trust the engineer you're working with, then walk away.

Most of my business comes from word-of-mouth recommendations and repeat business from existing customers - and I wouldn't get either of those if I were in the habit of competing with them. It's bad for business.

Wonder how many people have gotten burned this way.....

More than you'd think - though never twice by the same company.

Are you a full-time consultant?

Yes.

[nctnico]

One of the things I learned is never to take on a project with a seemingly blank check. That never works out well for both parties because in most cases it takes more time and money to develop than the client expected due to endless change requests. A proper specification is the only way to ensure you get what you want for the price that was quoted.

[Kohanbash]

- It's tempting to insist on outright ownership of the finished design, but think very carefully about the implications. If all the hardware and software will be completely yours to do what you like with, then they have to be developed completely from scratch for you and only for you, and guess who is paying for that!

- On the other hand, if you can still make and sell your product with a licensed design from the engineer, then that engineer is free to use their own pre-existing libraries of schematics and code, which makes your design quicker, cheaper and lower risk. Unless you have a good business reason why you *need* complete ownership of the IP, you're probably better off without.

This is where it gets interesting. As far as I know, my product will be the only of its kind on the marketplace. Of course, its a pretty small market, and many devices have similar functionality, but not to the extent I want to implement it.

Is there a "standard" way of doing this? I dont want the designer to sell or market a very similar product to other companies. Would I license it "conditionally"? IE: XXX or a certain percentage of he design has to be modified if licensed to another company?  Again this seems like another good place to get legal council, to protect both parties. Nothing about the product is 100% unique (from an engineering point of view), just a new way of presenting it, if that makes sense. So it will appear like a "novel" idea o he consumer.

 

I have been in contracts where it specifies that each party has rights to the IP and that I can not use the IP I developed for competing applications. I have also seen where a second clause is added that the client can only re-use this IP within the domain of the product.