Author Topic: Hopeless engineering graduates fail grade school electrical problem  (Read 3704 times)

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Online rstofer

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Re: Hopeless engineering graduates fail grade school electrical problem
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2017, 02:12:06 AM »

Fair Go,guys---Either ask them:- "Why the bulb doesn't illuminate?"( which would be a more serious test),or use the correct bulb for the circuit voltage.

This is classic TV show crap--I remember a programme which purported to show that TV Repair Shops were ripping off their customers.

They found some so-called "Engineer" to put a fault on a TV.
He did this by tweaking a trimmer pot.
The Station had dozens of Techs & several EEs who could have made a more convincing fault,(Hell,even the old "drawing pin in a capacitor" would have been better),but no,they got this dope.

The TV was sent out to various Repair shops.
Naturally,they assumed the trimmers were all correctly set,& looked everywhere else,before ultimately readjusting the trimpot & returning the TV with a note that they had adjusted it to work,but asking the owners to return it if it failed again.

The "Engineer" pontificated at length on how they should have found the maladjusted pot in a couple of minutes.
All the Techs & EEs at our Studio called BS on this,but we only had decades of "hands on " experience--what did we know?

Back in the days of Muscle Cars, Plymouth used to sponsor a Troubleshooting Contest which included parts deliberately manufactured as defective.  Stuff you wouldn't immediately think about.

https://books.google.com/books?id=TtQDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA168&lpg=PA168#v=onepage&q&f=false

One thing about those days, we kids certainly knew how to make cars go fast!  Turning wasn't nearly as advanced.  And, no, I wasn't a participant in the contests but we did have a couple of Dodges and a Plymouth that were pretty quick.  Seven liter engines tend to pump out gobs of horsepower!
 

Offline vodka

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Re: Hopeless engineering graduates fail grade school electrical problem
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2017, 02:44:22 AM »
OK, I'm sure this has been edited to make it look bad, but really, nobody, nobody entering engineering school should be able to fail this, let alone anyone graduating from one. Sadly, however, I think this situation is all too real:



We are doomed, I tell you. Doomed!

Lucky, that she don't ask them  how  does work the pacifier's mechanism?  :-DD


For every competent engineer, there will be 40 people whos job is button mashing. They go home, to their wifes, and they have 0 interest for electronics, and the most difficult task in their professional life will be choosing the wine for their bosses birthday.
That is what the university prepares people for.

So ,you are saying :One works and the rest (40 man) stay to see to other  how  works.
 Simply , i result very familiar
 

Offline Roy Batty

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Re: Hopeless engineering graduates fail grade school electrical problem
« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2017, 04:52:40 AM »
My school had a lounge and microwave for the physics TA's. They used to heat food in plastic containers.

To keep the lids on the food in the microwave, they weighted them down.

With lead sinkers.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2017, 04:56:05 AM by Roy Batty »
 

Offline hans

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Re: Hopeless engineering graduates fail grade school electrical problem
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2017, 05:00:08 AM »
Over half of MIT and Harvard students get this question wrong the first time:
Quote
A bat and ball cost $1.10.

The bat costs one dollar more than the ball.

How much does the ball cost?

If you rewrite this question as with any calculus test like x + (1+x) = 11/10 (no - not 1.10), solve for x, they would laugh at you.

You don't go to university for practical problem solving capabilities. You should have the 'knack' by your own interests. I've had an intern who studied computer science because he said it leads to well paid jobs for a nice house and car. Sure, a good engineer (or any profession actually) will be paid very well, but that does not mean university is the only ingredient that accomplishes this. He couldn't even get some of the basics down in computer programming, and he was a 3rd year Bsc student. In his spare time he did not program or anything like engineering. Well it's obvious you will be outperformed by engineers that do occasionally do some tinkering at home.

University teaches more about abstract thinking than anything else. These courses are packed in such a tight schedule as well. It's a test if you're capable and willing to spend so much time on theoretical subjects with little direct application. It can prove that you're quick in picking up new information.
However most of the nifty details will be gone in about 6 weeks, which sucks if you have an exam in 7 weeks time. Yet there is not enough time to slack things off the first 4 weeks and then go full autistic on the homework. The trick is to learn yourself the broad concepts and be able to dive into them when needed.

There are many subjects that are only taught well at university. Sure you can self teach a lot of things, and everyone should to keep the knack going, but not all subjects are easy to get into. Like semiconductor design for example.
 

Online rfeecs

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Re: Hopeless engineering graduates fail grade school electrical problem
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2017, 05:44:38 AM »
It looks like only two of the graduates are possibly from MIT.  The others with the "crow's feet" symbol on their gowns are from Harvard.

Interesting the Harvard folks say "sure", "definitely" and then can't do it.

The MIT guys seem to be thinking "Is this a trick question?", "Maybe..".

 

Online helius

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Re: Hopeless engineering graduates fail grade school electrical problem
« Reply #30 on: January 10, 2017, 05:53:36 AM »
Oh, that video. Why doesn't this site have a filter to hide "fake news"?
 
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Offline Rick Law

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Re: Hopeless engineering graduates fail grade school electrical problem
« Reply #31 on: January 10, 2017, 06:21:36 AM »
To be honest I probably would have asked if it was a 1 1/2 V bulb.

That's exactly the response I would expect from an MIT graduate!
And it's a good response asking such questions first, it shows you know the basics and are actually thinking.

That is why I gave them the benefit of the doubt and that the excitement of graduation might have frozen their brain for the moment.  But if I am an employer, I would certainly press the "monitor" button and monitor this guy carefully to validate.

But I believe that practice comes before theory.
The issue with universities is the perfection. Look at the, saying they are the best of the best, and they actually believe it. If you are doing practice, something is going to go wrong. You connect things the other way around, blow up stuff, fail, sometimes succeed. Universities discourage failure. The entire thing is built up to punish failure. You fail a test, you get "punished" the more you fail, the worse the punishment is.
...
...
I don't think there is any thing wrong with "universities is the perfection ... punish failure..."  In fact, I think there is not enough that around.

When one fails, one learns from it during the learning phase.  The learning phase is where one should be able to have failure without consequences.  That failure benefits learning.  During the validation phase (test), failure should have consequences which would be the grades.  Test grades should reflect the degree of success and low grades is uncomfortable and upsetting.

That is why I poke fun at "safe space."   It is not compatible with discovery of failure and consequences of failure.  Shielding the student from the consequence of failure (discomfort, shame, whatever) will end up lowering the quality of their student.

Merit appears to be a forgotten word at way too many universities these days.
 
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Offline NANDBlog

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Re: Hopeless engineering graduates fail grade school electrical problem
« Reply #32 on: January 10, 2017, 09:36:28 AM »
I don't think there is any thing wrong with "universities is the perfection ... punish failure..."  In fact, I think there is not enough that around.

When one fails, one learns from it during the learning phase.  The learning phase is where one should be able to have failure without consequences.  That failure benefits learning.  During the validation phase (test), failure should have consequences which would be the grades.  Test grades should reflect the degree of success and low grades is uncomfortable and upsetting.

That is why I poke fun at "safe space."   It is not compatible with discovery of failure and consequences of failure.  Shielding the student from the consequence of failure (discomfort, shame, whatever) will end up lowering the quality of their student.

Merit appears to be a forgotten word at way too many universities these days.
Oh, no, I'm not talking about the "everyone is a winner" attitude. Obviously not. But there are people finishing the uni without failing a single test, yet they are complete morons. They know how to pass tests, and they are awful engineers.
If you dont fail, you dont learn how to correct it. Think about quality control in engineering. There is of course the DFM and DFT principles, which make sure, that the yield will be high. Yet some parts are going to be wrong. Now, the quality team doesnt start punishing the workers on the production line.
They ask the question: Why did it fail? What can we do to avoid it in the future? What did we learn from the failure?
Theory is always fine, because you are just replicating a textbook. If you start doing practice, stuff is going to go wrong. Problem solving is definitely not a skill being taught today. Find X is not problem solving as far as I'm concerned.
 

Online cdev

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Re: Hopeless engineering graduates fail grade school electrical problem
« Reply #33 on: January 10, 2017, 09:41:13 AM »
I doubt if any of the "engineers" they spoke to were EEs or even in any other electronics related disciplines.  How could they be?
 

Online Someone

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Re: Hopeless engineering graduates fail grade school electrical problem
« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2017, 11:05:24 AM »
I don't think there is any thing wrong with "universities is the perfection ... punish failure..."  In fact, I think there is not enough that around.

When one fails, one learns from it during the learning phase.  The learning phase is where one should be able to have failure without consequences.  That failure benefits learning.  During the validation phase (test), failure should have consequences which would be the grades.  Test grades should reflect the degree of success and low grades is uncomfortable and upsetting.

That is why I poke fun at "safe space."   It is not compatible with discovery of failure and consequences of failure.  Shielding the student from the consequence of failure (discomfort, shame, whatever) will end up lowering the quality of their student.

Merit appears to be a forgotten word at way too many universities these days.
Oh, no, I'm not talking about the "everyone is a winner" attitude. Obviously not. But there are people finishing the uni without failing a single test, yet they are complete morons. They know how to pass tests, and they are awful engineers.
The expectation that everyone can get good grades and pass is ever growing, students having ridiculous claims such as "I put in a lot of effort so I deserve a good grade" or "I get good marks in other courses so I should get a good mark here" or "this course is too hard so you need to make it easier" all for courses which had not changed in 10 years while those around them had dropped their standards. Its a negative feedback where the degrees are becoming worth less and less each year as their standards are eroded. As you say, they have been built up to pass tests, not to learn. So you end up with final year electronic engineering students who can't measure a current in circuit because the assessment of those skills have been pushed into irrelevance.

But there are common problems for students coming out of the technical institutions too, expecting that all problems will have a procedure to follow to solve them. Asking open ended questions to students coming out of modern education is usually going to end up with blank stares and a request for the instructions, even when its something you know they've been taught specifically. So you can understand why companies will only hire people with prior experience to avoid being shouldered with the can't do attitude of the new generation.
 

Offline TechnicalBen

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Re: Hopeless engineering graduates fail grade school electrical problem
« Reply #35 on: January 10, 2017, 11:24:29 AM »
What is more surprising to me that they never became interested in building (obviously they cannot built anything).
It is obvious why so many times we get answers like "it cannot be done", "not worth the mess", not to mention the "you will never get the degree of commercial stuff" religion.

To know what is impossible and what is possible, is a really really good skill to have. I use to have a hobby of posting images/products of things claimed "impossible" in posts. Like, really basic maths/gadgets/constructions. But the experts considered it an impossible task to hard to do (with no claims of "too expensive" or "not worth the time", just "impossible").

Programming has lots of examples of this.

The real impossibilities still stand, FTL, free energy, AI. But the "too difficult" ones keep getting beaten one by one.
 

Online xrunner

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Re: Hopeless engineering graduates fail grade school electrical problem
« Reply #36 on: January 10, 2017, 11:45:28 AM »
LOL the one girl said "Don't you need two wires?"

Should have given them three wires and see them try to use them all.  :popcorn:
 
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Online batteksystem

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Re: Hopeless engineering graduates fail grade school electrical problem
« Reply #37 on: January 10, 2017, 01:48:41 PM »
The video didn't really surprise me. There are bound to be people that don't know how to put theory into practice or end up needlessly making a situation more complicated than what it really is.

I remember during the first half of my Circuits Analysis class in undergrad the professor blew everyone's minds that a line drawn across a schematic connecting several components together could mean they were connected to a single node. Electrical Engineering students, that were seniors, didn't even know that other op-amps besides the 741 existed as that was all that was in the lab and what they had ran their experiments on during their time in school. The majority couldn't even make sense of a datasheet if presented with it.

That being said, almost everyone there at the end knew how to do things that the majority of electronics hobbyists would not even know about such as perform steady state analysis of RL, RC, and RLC circuits. Calculate and derive feedback loops used in PID controllers and switching converters, perform convolution related to continuous LTI systems, solve multi-parameter systems using linear algebra and differential equations, and so on and so forth.

I think the point of teaching just theory in college is to make sure everyone is well equipped to be critical thinkers and be able to use varying concepts to achieve a goal given a set of restrictions. The applicability can be easily taught on the job. If you want someone to build or repair something, hire a technician. If you want someone to design something, hire an engineer.

On the other hands, you have engineers in the field who only know the existing practices, and estimation is based on experience and testing rather than calculations. Somebody who can do both, or willing to do both, is actually rare.

Offline raptor1956

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Re: Hopeless engineering graduates fail grade school electrical problem
« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2017, 07:15:54 AM »
Decades ago, while working at IBM East Fishkill, I and a couple other guys were working in the lab when the new engineer came in to see what was going on.  He was fresh out of school with a Phd in electrical engineering, and he walked over to the bench, picked up a resistor, and asked -- what's this?  We laughed thinking he was joking but he wasn't, he didn't know what it was.  I found that impossible to believe.  I was going to school part time back then and if I ever had a problem with Calculus Ali was brilliant at it and would always be able to get me back on track quickly -- he was very smart.  But, had zero practical knowledge.

Around about that time we were installing some automated equipment on our diffusion/oxidation furnaces and we contracted with a company to design the controller for it.  The guy that lead that work was an MIT graduate and when we fired up the system it didn't work.  I traced the problem to grounding -- they'd grounded multiple components with ground loops and we had to redo them to make the system work.  The MIT engineer didn't understand the problem and he was the one that designed it.


Brian
 

Offline XynxNet

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Re: Hopeless engineering graduates fail grade school electrical problem
« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2017, 09:05:18 AM »
Well grab 100 engineers from their company christmas party and ask them some basic chemistry questions.
I think you could easily cut your footage to an equally hilarious seeming video.
Though that doesn't necessarily represent their competence in chemistry.
 

Online xrunner

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Re: Hopeless engineering graduates fail grade school electrical problem
« Reply #40 on: January 12, 2017, 09:30:20 AM »
Well grab 100 engineers from their company christmas party and ask them some basic chemistry questions.
I think you could easily cut your footage to an equally hilarious seeming video.

Like - are you aware of the dangers of Dihydrogen Monoxide?

http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: Hopeless engineering graduates fail grade school electrical problem
« Reply #41 on: January 12, 2017, 09:40:13 AM »
Several decades ago, on my Electronic Engineering BSc course, the majority of students completed successfully without ever having lifted a soldering iron in their lives, and 95% wouldn't know where to start with a scope. They could, however, solve most calculus problems in at least three different ways.

While I don't want to denigrate the value of maths, the balance wasn't right, and the university I attended advertised and prided itself on being vocational.

So I am not surprised that the video shows supposedly bright students being unable to achieve an apparently simple task. But equally I am sure we didn't see the whole picture.
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: Hopeless engineering graduates fail grade school electrical problem
« Reply #42 on: January 12, 2017, 09:45:45 AM »
LOL! I just tried it with the wife.

"Where do you put the bulb? Ouch, it's getting hot!"
 

Offline VK3DRB

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Re: Hopeless engineering graduates fail grade school electrical problem
« Reply #43 on: January 12, 2017, 11:21:36 PM »
I once worked with a bloke who boasted his MBA (Master of Bullshit Artistry) ad-nauseum. (I will call him the MBA.)

When five of us made up a technical committee to introduce new technology to a local school as a trial project, at the project kick-off we all introduced ourselves to various external parties. The MBA was the only one who said "I have an MBA and two other degrees in engineering and my skills will be critical to the project." None of the rest of us who had degrees even mentioned our qualifications. It turned out the MBA never lifted a finger or even got involved in the project. The rest of us did all the work, much of it in our own time. When the accolades came, the MBA positioned himself to outshine the rest of us by acting as if he lead the project.

The MBA once asked me how a picture tube and video drive circuitry worked in a TV. A few hours later, I found out from another colleague that the MBA discretely had gone to a senior manager and told him that he was the right person to run a new monitor manufacturing project because he was the only engineer in the company that knew anything about monitor technology, as he explained to the manager how picture tubes worked.

The MBA once came to me with a problem of an audio amp with excessive hum, but had no idea what could have caused it. The cause of the problem was obvious and I gave him a junk box 2200uF cap 35VW to replace a 2200uF 25VW cap that had spilled its guts. He said something like, "Can you get a 25 volt capacitor instead? The 35 volt one might blow up the amplifier because it could make too many volts."  :-DD

But unlike any of the skilled engineers, our MBA was successful. He played politics like a sly fox. He even rescheduled a flight from the US to ensure he was on the same flight as an exec, so he could have the MBA's ear. Within a week the MBA was promoted to a senior management position. The MBA would not associate with anyone who was not useful to him or had an MBA. He subsequently made terrible business decisions and failed to employ common sense, costing the company millions of dollars, destroying some people and contributing for company's downfall.
 

Offline VK3DRB

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Re: Hopeless engineering graduates fail grade school electrical problem
« Reply #44 on: January 12, 2017, 11:36:34 PM »
A bloke who reported to me once who boasted two degrees -one in engineering and the other computer science - was a know-it-all. Working with him was like walking on eggshells. He once warned me, "You can't run too much data through the Bluetooth dongle, else the chip inside the can melt." :palm: I let him go not long after.

A woman who had an electrical engineering degree was responsible for a test system. Her technical skill was very poor. But she was promoted because her test system had great first pass yields and she was seen as a shining star. The reason she did so well was because she had commented out 3/4 of the tests to make them pass. No wonder the subsequent test system down the line had poor yields. After her promotion, a fresh grad discovered the issue and he spent many months putting the tests back in and fixing the original problems. She was clueless with electronics. Fortunately, in her promotion, she became one of the best project managers I have ever worked with.

That fresh grad was pretty bright. He loved numbers. He went on to quit electronics saying it was a dead-end job, and he did an accounting degree and then did his CPA. He is now the CFO of a several large car dealers and owns 10% of the conglomerate. He said the best move he ever made was getting out of electronics.
 

Offline vodka

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Re: Hopeless engineering graduates fail grade school electrical problem
« Reply #45 on: January 13, 2017, 03:14:36 AM »
I once worked with a bloke who boasted his MBA (Master of Bullshit Artistry) ad-nauseum. (I will call him the MBA.)

When five of us made up a technical committee to introduce new technology to a local school as a trial project, at the project kick-off we all introduced ourselves to various external parties. The MBA was the only one who said "I have an MBA and two other degrees in engineering and my skills will be critical to the project." None of the rest of us who had degrees even mentioned our qualifications. It turned out the MBA never lifted a finger or even got involved in the project. The rest of us did all the work, much of it in our own time. When the accolades came, the MBA positioned himself to outshine the rest of us by acting as if he lead the project.

The MBA once asked me how a picture tube and video drive circuitry worked in a TV. A few hours later, I found out from another colleague that the MBA discretely had gone to a senior manager and told him that he was the right person to run a new monitor manufacturing project because he was the only engineer in the company that knew anything about monitor technology, as he explained to the manager how picture tubes worked.

The MBA once came to me with a problem of an audio amp with excessive hum, but had no idea what could have caused it. The cause of the problem was obvious and I gave him a junk box 2200uF cap 35VW to replace a 2200uF 25VW cap that had spilled its guts. He said something like, "Can you get a 25 volt capacitor instead? The 35 volt one might blow up the amplifier because it could make too many volts."  :-DD

But unlike any of the skilled engineers, our MBA was successful. He played politics like a sly fox. He even rescheduled a flight from the US to ensure he was on the same flight as an exec, so he could have the MBA's ear. Within a week the MBA was promoted to a senior management position. The MBA would not associate with anyone who was not useful to him or had an MBA. He subsequently made terrible business decisions and failed to employ common sense, costing the company millions of dollars, destroying some people and contributing for company's downfall.

Here  we name to  these kind of people like "The Plum Teacher that he doesn't know to  read but he puts school" and they always are promotionated to boss.
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: Hopeless engineering graduates fail grade school electrical problem
« Reply #46 on: January 13, 2017, 03:24:12 AM »
It was funny when the mechanical engineering student said she's not an electrical engineer  :palm:
That's like me saying I can't assemble Ikea furniture.

you can assemble ikea furniture ? stop the press. :)

i know people that don;t buy anything from ikea because 'you have to self assemble them and 'they dont have the tools to do that' .. :palm:

ikea even provides you with the little allen wrenches you need ..
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Offline TerraHertz

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Re: Hopeless engineering graduates fail grade school electrical problem
« Reply #47 on: January 13, 2017, 11:43:43 AM »
The clip was obviously set up for students to fail. To be honest I probably would have asked if it was a 1 1/2 V bulb. I'd be surprised if any light bulb lit up one battery.

Well yes, but that is the point. Anyone with basic knowledge of electricity AND a functioning brain should have immediately realized that bulb was not going to light with a 1.5V battery. Before even trying it. They should have known the voltage rating is always written on the bulb, read it, and asked for a correct bulb. That's called problem solving ability, and without it no amount of theoretical knowledge is going to help in real life.

Quote
Same sort of thing really for the TV. You can make anything out of anything these days and this is one of the reasons why I don't own a TV or watch any form of TV because I know it's all manufactured nonsense. I also don't read any of the tabloids or get time to read any newspapers for that matter because they all have a pretty much declared bias so what is the point in reading something with the aim of finding facts when there is a declared bias. The TV programme was the same there was a declared bias they were going to prove that the TV shops were no good. When I've taken TVs into repair to people that I do know on behalf of other people when I lived in Italy the guy was always quite honest with me and often will tell me about how many hours he had spent chasing down a dry joint for example. It is simple stuff that takes hours in repair but of course Joe public seem to think that the simpler the fault of the easier to find.

I share your views of the media, and also watch no TV and ignore newspapers. There are plenty of real-time uncensored online news sources. Which can be very entertaining; eg yesterday's 'piss-gate' comedy, in which senator John McCain, CNN and a slew of other MSM 'we-are-not-fake-news' serious clowns, published a juicy 'leaked intelligence dossier' as factual. It turned out to have been totally made up by a 4chan joker back in Oct-Nov last year. Ha ha ha... CNN got rickrolled.
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Offline vk6zgo

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Re: Hopeless engineering graduates fail grade school electrical problem
« Reply #48 on: January 13, 2017, 11:42:47 PM »
What those of us who are a bit older fail to realise,is that a  generation has arisen to whom incandescent bulbs are unfamiliar.
For many of us,our first experience with electric circuits was the electric "torch",or flashlight.

They were often quite grotty,& somewhere along the line,would fail,& kids would try to "fix" them.
We would usually find that we could make the "torch globe" illuminate,& that bit of information was squirreled away in the back of our minds.

Modern LED flashlights just keep on working,so you don't get to play with them.

Another thing we learnt about was candles---they were regarded as dangerous things,& our Mothers warned us about the fire risk.
Kerosene lamps were commonly available or emergency use,so candles were a lamp of last resort.

Modern Electricity supplies are very reliable,so most modern young people have never seen a kero" lamp,& their only associations with candles are pleasant ones.
When there is a  power failure,out come the candles,which because of the lack of knowledge of their dangers,are left unattended near curtains,drapes.etc.

The result:- another of the spate of house fires which often follow power outages.
 

Online gnif

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Re: Hopeless engineering graduates fail grade school electrical problem
« Reply #49 on: January 14, 2017, 04:01:03 AM »
And how many people did they ask that knew off the bat that they cut from the production?

The only one that got it was the black fellow, and note that he said 'The small globe works', which implies he had previously been given a 'big' globe, ie > 1.5V.

I hate the news, 'reality tv', in fact, I hate TV, today it is just a lie machine designed to enrage people.
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