Author Topic: How Important Is Math In Electrical Engineering Technology Degree?/job  (Read 35631 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline tggzzz

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 19281
  • Country: gb
  • Numbers, not adjectives
    • Having fun doing more, with less
My only regret about getting my degrees is that I did not take even more courses and get my Ph.D. My 75 year old former boss is retired but still studies math and engineering.  In fact, everyone I respect in engineering is a perpetual student. There is no "piece of paper" and done in our field.

Very true.

However I'll observe that in the opinion of myself and many colleagues who have recruited many PhDs and non-PhDs into commercial companies, there is one good reason for doing a PhD: because you want to.

Having said that, advancement in acadaemia (and maybe some civil service careers) requires a PhD, and it will tend to open doors when giving advice to people outside the profession.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline tggzzz

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 19281
  • Country: gb
  • Numbers, not adjectives
    • Having fun doing more, with less
Going back to your first post in this thread, you say...

I basically want to know do I really need to fully understand these concepts (like Calc and differential equations) or will a basic knowledge just enough to pass the class with some good notes be enough?

In all but one of the companies that I've worked in, the interview process has been structured to discover if the candidate has such an attitude to any part of their subject. No direct question is asked, of course, but it isn't difficult to determine - and then to not offer them a job.

The exception turned out to be a thoroughly unpleasant company to work in.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2016, 09:11:52 am by tggzzz »
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 
The following users thanked this post: mtdoc

Offline Galenbo

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1469
  • Country: be
...
Now how important is all this advanced graphing, matrices, factoring, simplifying, and systems of equations going to be on the job? I have never seen any of the EE's at my current job do any complex math. Just basic stuff calculated of datsheets...

... off the shelf libraries and simulation software. A lot of stuff is being replaced by computer simulation.

It's important to understand what's behind those off the shelf solutions and simulations.

For example, in feedback diff equitations often the "reasonable assumption" sin(a)=a is made.

It is not possible to expain to someone that never understood diff equitations, why this limits the max. angle that will be controlled.
Or: He will be unable to understand: Help, the library/simulation doesn't work, or: witch library is the "best" one.
If you try and take a cat apart to see how it works, the first thing you have on your hands is a nonworking cat.
 

Offline ROBOTTopic starter

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 40
  • Country: us
However to get the 2x increase in pay I need the piece of paper.

It is revealing that you consider a degree to be a "piece of paper". That indicates you very deeply misunderstand what a degree is.

If you want more money, change profession. Sorted.

It is not what I consider to be a piece of a paper. But what many companies consider to be a piece of paper. If you shop around some basic jobs now require advanced degrees that someone with 10 years of experience could perform just well.

I am not sure of many professions that without a degree make you over $60k a year.
 

Offline coppice

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8605
  • Country: gb
However to get the 2x increase in pay I need the piece of paper.

It is revealing that you consider a degree to be a "piece of paper". That indicates you very deeply misunderstand what a degree is.

If you want more money, change profession. Sorted.

It is not what I consider to be a piece of a paper. But what many companies consider to be a piece of paper. If you shop around some basic jobs now require advanced degrees that someone with 10 years of experience could perform just well.

I am not sure of many professions that without a degree make you over $60k a year.
You sound like someone who is very determined to be unemployable.
 

Offline tggzzz

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 19281
  • Country: gb
  • Numbers, not adjectives
    • Having fun doing more, with less
However to get the 2x increase in pay I need the piece of paper.

It is revealing that you consider a degree to be a "piece of paper". That indicates you very deeply misunderstand what a degree is.

If you want more money, change profession. Sorted.

It is not what I consider to be a piece of a paper. But what many companies consider to be a piece of paper. If you shop around some basic jobs now require advanced degrees that someone with 10 years of experience could perform just well.

I am not sure of many professions that without a degree make you over $60k a year.
You sound like someone who is very determined to be unemployable.

Hmmm. I don't understand what ROBOT is saying, and you might well be right.

On reflection I'd say "not very determined to be employable". The end result is the same, but the route is different, and different techniques are needed to avoid that end result :)
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline coppice

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8605
  • Country: gb
However to get the 2x increase in pay I need the piece of paper.

It is revealing that you consider a degree to be a "piece of paper". That indicates you very deeply misunderstand what a degree is.

If you want more money, change profession. Sorted.

It is not what I consider to be a piece of a paper. But what many companies consider to be a piece of paper. If you shop around some basic jobs now require advanced degrees that someone with 10 years of experience could perform just well.

I am not sure of many professions that without a degree make you over $60k a year.
You sound like someone who is very determined to be unemployable.

Hmmm. I don't understand what ROBOT is saying, and you might well be right.

On reflection I'd say "not very determined to be employable". The end result is the same, but the route is different, and different techniques are needed to avoid that end result :)
seems appropriate.
 

Offline Kalvin

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2145
  • Country: fi
  • Embedded SW/HW.
There are many engineering positions in which math is not needed at all or very little math is required. If you really hate math or you just do not get it, it is not the end of your engineering career. Most probably you will end up into some small- or middle-sized company and get eventually a position in the lower management, in the sales or systems installation/design.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2016, 01:03:20 pm by Kalvin »
 

Offline ebclr

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2328
  • Country: 00
Will be very hard to get out of the university with a engineering degree without a reasonable math study
 

Offline tggzzz

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 19281
  • Country: gb
  • Numbers, not adjectives
    • Having fun doing more, with less
There are many engineering positions in which math is not needed at all or very little math is required. If you really hate math or you just do not get it, it is not the end of your engineering career. Most probably you will end up into some small- or middle-sized company and get eventually a position in the lower management, in the sales or systems installation/design.
Plausible.

Often sales people are paid more than engineers, which seems important to the OP.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline ROBOTTopic starter

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 40
  • Country: us
However to get the 2x increase in pay I need the piece of paper.

It is revealing that you consider a degree to be a "piece of paper". That indicates you very deeply misunderstand what a degree is.

If you want more money, change profession. Sorted.

It is not what I consider to be a piece of a paper. But what many companies consider to be a piece of paper. If you shop around some basic jobs now require advanced degrees that someone with 10 years of experience could perform just well.

I am not sure of many professions that without a degree make you over $60k a year.
You sound like someone who is very determined to be unemployable.

Hmmm. I don't understand what ROBOT is saying, and you might well be right.

On reflection I'd say "not very determined to be employable". The end result is the same, but the route is different, and different techniques are needed to avoid that end result :)

I am talking about a purchasing generalist job that requires a masters degree in business and 5 years of experience. Many companies now require way more than necessary.

Calling up a vendor and trying to pull in a delivery date is not hard... Creating a purchase order in an ERP system is not hard. In fact a business degree will hardly help you with either of these.
 

Offline LabSpokane

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1899
  • Country: us
Quote
I am talking about a purchasing generalist job that requires a masters degree in business and 5 years of experience. Many companies now require way more than necessary.
In your opinion, not the hiring manager's.  They are looking for professionals and are paying accordingly. Perhaps the job entails more responsibility than you think.

Lastly, a bachelor's degree is the new high school diploma. It is merely a minimum standard for employment as a professional.
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5172
  • Country: us
Lastly, a bachelor's degree is the new high school diploma. It is merely a minimum standard for employment as a professional.

Translation:  In the minefield of discrimination claims in the US a bachelors degree is one of the few defensible criteria on an employment application.  A human resource department can use this to screen applicants without fear that they will be sued for race, sex, age, religious or other bias.  Regardless of whether it has any impact on suitability for the job.  This may change when a clever lawyer recognises that there are income barriers to higher education in this country.  While I have great disdain for the ambulance chasing profession in general, I would welcome this development as it might force more attention to actual suitability for a position rather than some arbitrary checkbox.

As a final thought - are you a professional if your job is defined by hours a week rather than jobs per dollar? 

Large businesses don't like this question.  They are quick to play the professional card when more hours are required to finish a job (long days or weekends), but don't think that it applies when a job is done early and an attempt is made to take the rest of the week off.
 

Offline Cerebus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 10576
  • Country: gb
It is revealing that you consider a degree to be a "piece of paper". That indicates you very deeply misunderstand what a degree is.

Or he has encountered too many people with degrees who demonstrate no more competence than the unlettered. There's plenty of those about and I can see how that kind of graduate might influence one to think that a degree is just "a piece of paper".

To be balanced there are also a lot of "experienced" folks whose experience isn't worth the paper it's not written on. As I apparently once said of a co-worker, "Oh yes, he's got 10 years experience but unfortunately it's the same year's experience repeated 10 times". ('Apparently' as I didn't remember saying it but a friend quoted me in print about 15 years later.)
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Offline LabSpokane

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1899
  • Country: us
Lastly, a bachelor's degree is the new high school diploma. It is merely a minimum standard for employment as a professional.

Translation:  In the minefield of discrimination claims in the US a bachelors degree is one of the few defensible criteria on an employment application.  A human resource department can use this to screen applicants without fear that they will be sued for race, sex, age, religious or other bias.  Regardless of whether it has any impact on suitability for the job.  This may change when a clever lawyer recognises that there are income barriers to higher education in this country.  While I have great disdain for the ambulance chasing profession in general, I would welcome this development as it might force more attention to actual suitability for a position rather than some arbitrary checkbox.

As a final thought - are you a professional if your job is defined by hours a week rather than jobs per dollar? 

Large businesses don't like this question.  They are quick to play the professional card when more hours are required to finish a job (long days or weekends), but don't think that it applies when a job is done early and an attempt is made to take the rest of the week off.

I have actually spent a fair bit of time talking about the degreed vs non-degreed employee with people I respect. We all have observed the same thing. A degree is no guarantee of competence. However, the lack of a degree can allow competence in a very narrow area, but once the questions become larger, the non-degreed generally fail.

This is not discrimination. It is a simple reality observed by many professionals in business over decades.

The question of the income barrier to higher education is valid. Something must change drastically to fix that. It's worth noting that one of the things that must change is the attitudes of those attending. Many of the costs universities are incurring have nothing to do with the actual education of students. Sports programs and lavish facilities are the focal points rather than a quality education. It's time to cut all the fluff and focus on the academics.
 

Offline tggzzz

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 19281
  • Country: gb
  • Numbers, not adjectives
    • Having fun doing more, with less
I am talking about a purchasing generalist job that requires a masters degree in business and 5 years of experience. Many companies now require way more than necessary.

Most of us were discussing engineering jobs and engineering qualifications. It seems you aren't thinking of that, in which case this whole thread has been misdirected.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline ROBOTTopic starter

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 40
  • Country: us
I am talking about a purchasing generalist job that requires a masters degree in business and 5 years of experience. Many companies now require way more than necessary.

Most of us were discussing engineering jobs and engineering qualifications. It seems you aren't thinking of that, in which case this whole thread has been misdirected.

It was an example I saw on a posting recently I am sure I could find one that is engineering related. All you have to do is look at large engineering companies that are publicly traded on the NYSE
 

Offline LabSpokane

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1899
  • Country: us
I am talking about a purchasing generalist job that requires a masters degree in business and 5 years of experience. Many companies now require way more than necessary.

Most of us were discussing engineering jobs and engineering qualifications. It seems you aren't thinking of that, in which case this whole thread has been misdirected.

It was an example I saw on a posting recently I am sure I could find one that is engineering related. All you have to do is look at large engineering companies that are publicly traded on the NYSE

Not only do you not want to go to the effort of obtaining a higher education, now you demand that we do your homework for you. 

 :palm:
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5172
  • Country: us

I have actually spent a fair bit of time talking about the degreed vs non-degreed employee with people I respect. We all have observed the same thing. A degree is no guarantee of competence. However, the lack of a degree can allow competence in a very narrow area, but once the questions become larger, the non-degreed generally fail.

This is not discrimination. It is a simple reality observed by many professionals in business over decades.

The question of the income barrier to higher education is valid. Something must change drastically to fix that. It's worth noting that one of the things that must change is the attitudes of those attending. Many of the costs universities are incurring have nothing to do with the actual education of students. Sports programs and lavish facilities are the focal points rather than a quality education. It's time to cut all the fluff and focus on the academics.

My remarks may sound resentful, but they were in fact a lamentation about the talent that large companies miss.  I personally have advanced degrees from well regarded universities, and am quite satisfied with the professional opportunities and remuneration I have received.  You will find my comments in this thread and others advocating as much learning as possible.

But I noticed that much of the best talent I worked with could not make it through the front door based on current HR requirements.  They didn't have a degree, or they didn't have a degree from one of the "right" universities, or they didn't have a top GPA.   What they did have was a keen intelligence, an ability to learn deeply and rapidly, and deep focus on meaningful problems.   These attributes can be useful in a university setting, but do not assure success in that environment.  Boredom with the pace of structured learning, disinterest in artificial problems and simple geographic or financial barriers preventing attendance of the "best" schools can all lead an outstanding person to have an unimpressive resume.

The HR gates "may" provide a higher average result, but it frequently weeds out the outstanding performers.  And as you say it does not guarantee a good result.  The HR gates are an established and documented "best" process.  The problem with "best" processes is that if everyone follows them, then everyone comes in first.  Clearly there is a logical flaw here.  In actuality, "best" processes are suited to preventing below average results.  Achieving superior results in hiring, as in virtually every other human endeavor, requires hard work and intense thought.  Some of that thought should sort those who are deep, but narrow from the non-degreed folk who are deep and broad, and achieved their knowledge through unstructured means.

As a corollary to this general problem, the engineer whose knowledge goes no further than what he had upon receipt of his degree may be a valuable employee, but he is very unlikely to be one of the top talents that are so desirable.
 
The following users thanked this post: EmmanuelFaure

Offline tggzzz

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 19281
  • Country: gb
  • Numbers, not adjectives
    • Having fun doing more, with less
I have actually spent a fair bit of time talking about the degreed vs non-degreed employee with people I respect. We all have observed the same thing. A degree is no guarantee of competence. However, the lack of a degree can allow competence in a very narrow area, but once the questions become larger, the non-degreed generally fail.

Very true; nicely put. Nonetheless Bill and Dave would also have been on the lookout for the rare exceptions.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline ROBOTTopic starter

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 40
  • Country: us
I am talking about a purchasing generalist job that requires a masters degree in business and 5 years of experience. Many companies now require way more than necessary.

Most of us were discussing engineering jobs and engineering qualifications. It seems you aren't thinking of that, in which case this whole thread has been misdirected.

It was an example I saw on a posting recently I am sure I could find one that is engineering related. All you have to do is look at large engineering companies that are publicly traded on the NYSE

Not only do you not want to go to the effort of obtaining a higher education, now you demand that we do your homework for you. 

 :palm:


If I had the time I would surely look it up for you. But after a long weekend of real "homework" it's time to watch some YouTube. Before my watch later list gets to 1200 videos again  :palm:
 

Offline tggzzz

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 19281
  • Country: gb
  • Numbers, not adjectives
    • Having fun doing more, with less

I have actually spent a fair bit of time talking about the degreed vs non-degreed employee with people I respect. We all have observed the same thing. A degree is no guarantee of competence. However, the lack of a degree can allow competence in a very narrow area, but once the questions become larger, the non-degreed generally fail.

This is not discrimination. It is a simple reality observed by many professionals in business over decades.

The question of the income barrier to higher education is valid. Something must change drastically to fix that. It's worth noting that one of the things that must change is the attitudes of those attending. Many of the costs universities are incurring have nothing to do with the actual education of students. Sports programs and lavish facilities are the focal points rather than a quality education. It's time to cut all the fluff and focus on the academics.

My remarks may sound resentful, but they were in fact a lamentation about the talent that large companies miss.  I personally have advanced degrees from well regarded universities, and am quite satisfied with the professional opportunities and remuneration I have received.  You will find my comments in this thread and others advocating as much learning as possible.

But I noticed that much of the best talent I worked with could not make it through the front door based on current HR requirements.  They didn't have a degree, or they didn't have a degree from one of the "right" universities, or they didn't have a top GPA.   What they did have was a keen intelligence, an ability to learn deeply and rapidly, and deep focus on meaningful problems.   These attributes can be useful in a university setting, but do not assure success in that environment.  Boredom with the pace of structured learning, disinterest in artificial problems and simple geographic or financial barriers preventing attendance of the "best" schools can all lead an outstanding person to have an unimpressive resume.

The HR gates "may" provide a higher average result, but it frequently weeds out the outstanding performers.  And as you say it does not guarantee a good result.  The HR gates are an established and documented "best" process.  The problem with "best" processes is that if everyone follows them, then everyone comes in first.  Clearly there is a logical flaw here.  In actuality, "best" processes are suited to preventing below average results.  Achieving superior results in hiring, as in virtually every other human endeavor, requires hard work and intense thought.  Some of that thought should sort those who are deep, but narrow from the non-degreed folk who are deep and broad, and achieved their knowledge through unstructured means.

As a corollary to this general problem, the engineer whose knowledge goes no further than what he had upon receipt of his degree may be a valuable employee, but he is very unlikely to be one of the top talents that are so desirable.

There is a lot of truth in what you say, but associating it with degreed vs non-degreed engineers is missing the root cause: the HR droids.

In large companies HR droids tend to want to
  • get warm bodies that don't cause division within departments (=> yes-men corporate drones)
  • armour-plate their back against getting blamed if someone turns out to be "inappropriate" (=> filter out people with non-traditional qualifications / career paths, use dubious selection techniques such as graphology)
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline LabSpokane

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1899
  • Country: us

I have actually spent a fair bit of time talking about the degreed vs non-degreed employee with people I respect. We all have observed the same thing. A degree is no guarantee of competence. However, the lack of a degree can allow competence in a very narrow area, but once the questions become larger, the non-degreed generally fail.

This is not discrimination. It is a simple reality observed by many professionals in business over decades.

The question of the income barrier to higher education is valid. Something must change drastically to fix that. It's worth noting that one of the things that must change is the attitudes of those attending. Many of the costs universities are incurring have nothing to do with the actual education of students. Sports programs and lavish facilities are the focal points rather than a quality education. It's time to cut all the fluff and focus on the academics.

My remarks may sound resentful, but they were in fact a lamentation about the talent that large companies miss.  I personally have advanced degrees from well regarded universities, and am quite satisfied with the professional opportunities and remuneration I have received.  You will find my comments in this thread and others advocating as much learning as possible.

But I noticed that much of the best talent I worked with could not make it through the front door based on current HR requirements.  They didn't have a degree, or they didn't have a degree from one of the "right" universities, or they didn't have a top GPA.   What they did have was a keen intelligence, an ability to learn deeply and rapidly, and deep focus on meaningful problems.   These attributes can be useful in a university setting, but do not assure success in that environment.  Boredom with the pace of structured learning, disinterest in artificial problems and simple geographic or financial barriers preventing attendance of the "best" schools can all lead an outstanding person to have an unimpressive resume.

The HR gates "may" provide a higher average result, but it frequently weeds out the outstanding performers.  And as you say it does not guarantee a good result.  The HR gates are an established and documented "best" process.  The problem with "best" processes is that if everyone follows them, then everyone comes in first.  Clearly there is a logical flaw here.  In actuality, "best" processes are suited to preventing below average results.  Achieving superior results in hiring, as in virtually every other human endeavor, requires hard work and intense thought.  Some of that thought should sort those who are deep, but narrow from the non-degreed folk who are deep and broad, and achieved their knowledge through unstructured means.

As a corollary to this general problem, the engineer whose knowledge goes no further than what he had upon receipt of his degree may be a valuable employee, but he is very unlikely to be one of the top talents that are so desirable.

The HR barrier is a different discussion that this one.  This discussion is "do I need to know how to do math to be an engineer?"  The answer is yes.  And the typical processes to obtain the math skills required to be an engineer are addressed in most competent college programs. Some prodigies will obtain these skills on their own.  They are the rare exception, not the rule. 

Hiring the right people for the right job is a topic for another thread and is a source of frustration for all.

As already has been addressed, but is worth repeating, a college degree provides three useful things:

- A common language by which to communicate to others in one's field
- An understanding of how to learn - which is a process that never ends for a true professional in a technical field
- A concept of the boundaries of one's knowledge.  i.e. Knowing what we don't know. 
« Last Edit: May 30, 2016, 11:21:41 pm by LabSpokane »
 

Online IanB

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11790
  • Country: us
If I had the time I would surely look it up for you.

That's not quite right. You see, we are not the ones who want or need the information; you are. If you look it up for anyone, you should look it up for yourself. This is what learning is all about. Curiosity, finding things out that might be to your advantage.
 

Offline LabSpokane

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1899
  • Country: us
I have actually spent a fair bit of time talking about the degreed vs non-degreed employee with people I respect. We all have observed the same thing. A degree is no guarantee of competence. However, the lack of a degree can allow competence in a very narrow area, but once the questions become larger, the non-degreed generally fail.

Very true; nicely put. Nonetheless Bill and Dave would also have been on the lookout for the rare exceptions.

Agreed.  :-+
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf