huge vending machine replaces village shop

[Stigaard]

Just as a comparison when talking about minimum wage, in Denmark the minimum is around $20USD, and currently have an unemployment rate of 6.3% compared to the US of 5.4% (both for April 2015). Holland is 7.0% where they have a minimum wage of ~$10USD.
To make a full comparison requires a lot more factors, however the point is that a $20 minimum wage does not necessarily result in outrageously high unemployment rates.

[mtdoc]

Just as a comparison when talking about minimum wage, in Denmark the minimum is around $20USD, and currently have an unemployment rate of 6.3% compared to the US of 5.4% (both for April 2015). Holland is 7.0% where they have a minimum wage of ~$10USD.
To make a full comparison requires a lot more factors, however the point is that a $20 minimum wage does not necessarily result in outrageously high unemployment rates.

Good points. I do not think there is much, if any correlation between minimum wages and unemployment.  That said, I don't think increasing minimum wages really solves much, though it probably does provide some short term relief. The problems go much deeper than that.

BTW,  official unemployment rates, at least as they are calculated here in the U.S., are close to meaningless IMO since they do not take into account the long term unemployed.  A look at the historical labor force participation rate is more meaningful.  It has been declining for over 15 years.  There's been a very sharp decline in the last 6 years despite the fall in the "unemployment rate" and despite no change  in the minimum wage.

[zapta]

I just stated a few very simple facts - but your response seems to indicate they are threatening to you.

Catastrophic predictions are dime a dozen. Stand in line and take a number.

[mtdoc]

I just stated a few very simple facts - but your response seems to indicate they are threatening to you.

Catastrophic predictions are dime a dozen. Stand in line and take a number.

I made no predictions. Another strawman.

[miguelvp]

Funny thing is that humans are behind that vending machine. Make sure the products are not expired and fill them up.

But if you open a 7-11 next to that machine I will bet the 7-11 will have more revenue just because the machine doesn't offer enough product.

[rx8pilot]

There is no question that the details of making this thing profitable and have some consumer acceptance is nuts. One limit switch will shut your store down until a $150/hr technician is flown in from another city to fix it.

Lots and lots of challenges to make it work.

[zapta]

But if you open a 7-11 next to that machine I will bet the 7-11 will have more revenue just because the machine doesn't offer enough product.

"Electrical engineer Peter Fox invented it after the village shop closed down."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2585171/The-future-village-shop-Giant-VENDING-MACHINE-pub-car-park-dispenses-everyday-essentials-rural-community-lost-local-store.html


http://villagevending.com/


http://villagevending.com/live-stock?machine=00004

[rx8pilot]

well.....I guess it did not displace any jobs.

[lewis]

There is no question that the details of making this thing profitable and have some consumer acceptance is nuts. One limit switch will shut your store down until a $150/hr technician is flown in from another city to fix it.

Lots and lots of challenges to make it work.

Very true, but I think it can be designed to be extremely reliable. I would guess most faults would be due to produce jamming in the dispensing mechanism, a fault which would only put one product out of action and could be corrected by the guy who restocks the machine.

Making it profitable might be difficult, although other vending machines exist which make a profit. For example, my local gym has three vending machines and the gym is literally next to a major supermarket.

I still think it's an absolutely excellent idea.

[Marco]

Our economic system is based on continual expansion of debt which must be paid back with interest. This means that our economies (and hence civilization) requires continual growth.

Fiscal redistribution in the long term and monetization in the short term can keep this in check.

The fact that the long term solution has become an alien thought due to neo-liberalism is unfortunate, the short term solution dominates now. People in government still universally believe that redistribution is only necessary to smooth the waves. Eventually democracy will be where the rock meets the hard place, unfortunately the people who it will put in power probably won't be the brightest so that's going to be a rough transition. This is why TPTB are so desperate for TTP/TTIP in my opinion, they see the rising tide and are trying to put up sandbags. They are only going to make the whole thing messier. Society needs full employment, especially multicultural society.

[Mechanical Menace]

One limit switch will shut your store down until a $150/hr technician is flown in from another city to fix it.

This is about as far from civilisation as you can get on this silly little island. The nearest city probably isn't more than half an hours bus ride away. This has been put there so they don't have to travel a mile to the next town and the shops there. So nobody will have to be flown in lol. And there's absolutely no chance a vending machine technician is going to be paid even half that. That technicians boss might earn $50/hr at a push. When called out at 2 in the morning. When they aren't actually on call. Including any expenses.

[rx8pilot]

This is about as far from civilisation as you can get on this silly little island. The nearest city probably isn't more than half an hours bus ride away. This has been put there so they don't have to travel a mile to the next town and the shops there. So nobody will have to be flown in lol. And there's absolutely no chance a vending machine technician is going to be paid even half that. That technicians boss might earn $50/hr at a push. When called out at 2 in the morning. When they aren't actually on call. Including any expenses.

It is only a guess, but based on lots and lots of real world experience owning and maintaining unique and complicated pieces of commercial equipment. Recently I had my AC and refrigerator serviced at my house - they were $75/hr and it took them days to fit me in. On the commercial side, my CNC machines are a $175/hr minimum and those are for the very common machines with local service. For a Kitamura CNC, technicians have to be flown in from another city to diagnose the problem and then they have to paid while they wait for a part to arrive from Japan so they can install and test it. Almost nothing in the CNC shop can be repaired in less than two days with traditional service - generally it takes longer. This vending machine will likely have all kinds of unique parts and software all blended together in a way that is probably much more complicated than a CNC mill. $150/hr seems like a very low guess.

I would guess there are VERY VERY few people that are qualified to diagnose and repair a problem on this vending machine and therefore the cost goes up. They probably don't live down the road and they they have to be far more specialized than a typical appliance repair-person. Hopefully the design is forgiving of problems and can keep running with multiple faults.

[Mechanical Menace]

It is only a guess, but based on lots and lots of real world experience owning and maintaining unique and complicated pieces of commercial equipment.

And all I can say to that is when it comes to skilled work America is much happier to pay for those skills than the UK is. I've known people with much better qualifications and skills than I give up good sounding jobs to do things like night shifts at abattoirs because they paid much, much better. Just so they could afford to live and pay back their student loans at the same time.

I would guess there are VERY VERY few people that are qualified to diagnose and repair a problem on this vending machine and therefore the cost goes up.

It's a vending machine. The only difference between this and one at any train station is it's twice the width. I know for a fact most people who work on them earn at most £15 (about $24) an hour*. The technicians are also the same people who stock them up etc. They aren't as complicated as a CNC machine. I'd go as far to say they aren't as complicated as a dishwasher. My local hackspace manages to keep an ancient one running (full of Arduinos and stuff) no problem too.

They probably don't live down the road and they they have to be far more specialized than a typical appliance repair-person. Hopefully the design is forgiving of problems and can keep running with multiple faults.

In this case the fella who made it does live just up the street


*And this isn't going to be like your case where you get a technician employed by the CNC company so 60%+ of what you pay per hour is that companies mark up. The people who own the vending machines will directly employ those technicians.

[lewis]

It is only a guess, but based on lots and lots of real world experience owning and maintaining unique and complicated pieces of commercial equipment. Recently I had my AC and refrigerator serviced at my house - they were $75/hr and it took them days to fit me in. On the commercial side, my CNC machines are a $175/hr minimum and those are for the very common machines with local service. For a Kitamura CNC, technicians have to be flown in from another city to diagnose the problem and then they have to paid while they wait for a part to arrive from Japan so they can install and test it. Almost nothing in the CNC shop can be repaired in less than two days with traditional service - generally it takes longer. This vending machine will likely have all kinds of unique parts and software all blended together in a way that is probably much more complicated than a CNC mill. $150/hr seems like a very low guess.

I would guess there are VERY VERY few people that are qualified to diagnose and repair a problem on this vending machine and therefore the cost goes up. They probably don't live down the road and they they have to be far more specialized than a typical appliance repair-person. Hopefully the design is forgiving of problems and can keep running with multiple faults.

Servicing CNC machines in the UK is very expensive too. My pick and place machine costs about £1500 for a guy to open the lid and blow out the dust. Reflow oven is similar.

But this is a vending machine, like many millions of others around the world which get serviced economically just fine. Almost ANYONE could be trained to maintain it.

[pickle9000]

Vending machines are "designed for service" on board testing for limit and drop switches, boards on plugs, large easy access covers. Techs carry replacement boards and will often swap out everything and get the pcbs tested back home.

[rx8pilot]

This is a one-off (so far) machine that seems to be far more specialized than the typical drink machine. I doubt the local candy machine tech would know where to start. In my experience, the more obscure a machine is the more it costs to service and the more time it takes. This machine is not exactly common with service centers and toll-free service hotlines.

It's one thing for the designer to service his own machine, and another for it to be deployed in a place where he does not live. The goal of my post was to point out the practical challenges of making this a viable automation solution. Since it appears to target tiny remote towns/villages, it has to be designed and manufactured very well. At some point it is going to start smashing eggs or get a machine stopping error that will need  help. This thing has much more motion control than a 3 axis CNC. There is really not much to a CNC, it is just intimidating because its huge and can kill you.

Also, companies charge 3x-4x the hourly rate of the technician. When I am paying $175/hr for service, I know for a fact that he is only making $30/hr because he told me - nearly 6x! Non-factory freelancers can be found for $100/hr but it voids any warranty and they will possibly refuse even paid service if the machine has been "tampered" with. Liability I guess. 

When this thing breaks, call the local appliance/vending machine repair guy and see how far you get.

[AF6LJ]

When the cost of having a sales clerk exceeds the cost of a machine, automation is the way to go.

I don't know if there is a minimum wage law in the UK.  In the USA, we have a trend going in raising the minimum wage.  So here in the USA, we would expect more automation and less employment as well.

So I have to ask; What do you do when all the low wage workers are unemployed?

Exactly what we did with the chimney sweepers and watchmakers of the past, nothing. It's up to them to adapt and be marketable.

Well that doesn't always work, besides chimney sweepers and watch maters are still in demand, just not as much. As things are now we here in Southern Kalifornia (California to the rest of the world) are the dumping ground for the country's unemployable. At some point in the future if you don't have some art skill you will not have a job, the software and hardware engineering will all be done by computers and robots. That time is closer than a lot of folk think.

Sooner or later we will have to scrap the old economic paradigm in favor of ether giving away goods and services or paying people to do nothing.
(more than we already do here in the US.)

[AF6LJ]

So I have to ask; What do you do when all the low wage workers are unemployed?

They go on welfare. That's one of the problems with a minimum wage.

The minimum wage issue is a problem, because from the Git-Go it is inflationary.
People on fixed incomes will suffer and within a year or so those who got their raise in the minimum wage will be back where they started economically speaking.

[AF6LJ]

The future is one where humans need not apply.

But technological development throughout history has always destroyed jobs but created others.

When the motor car came along I'm sure it put a lot of blacksmiths, carriage makers and stablehands out of work.

But no-one could have foreseen the huge (and not so huge) industries created in roadbuilding, vehicle mechanics, oil refinement, bridge-building, traffic wardens, parking meter manufacturers, speed camera maintainers, delivery drivers, traffic officers, white line painters, raw materials miners, automotive electronics designers, race track engineers, and so on, not to mention car manufacturing itself.

Don't be scared of change, for change creates opportunity. Wachowskian dystopia aside, the technological revolution has not produced the society of leisure we all feared/dreamed of for the past 200 years.

There is a strong argument to be made for the advancement of technology being more of a ball and chain on the leg of the average worker than even fifty years ago when the American Dream was a house and a small business for every family, now it is just a house you hope will be paid off before you are forced out of work due to age and you will have a chance to reverse montage the house to provide a bit of income in your non-productive years. Yes people still have small businesses, it is just not as common as it use to be. Not here anyway....

[AF6LJ]

Let me guess, that notion of 'libertarian paradise' is something you made up, even though you are not libertarian yourself.

Are Ayn Rand's views still the gold standard? <-Serious question btw.

To me? No.

My understanding is that she promoted individualism and objectivism.

I care about freedom and it's up to each individual what the do with it, including charity, religion and co-ops if they choose so. It's not my business to tell others how to live their lives.

Watch out; you are starting to make too much sense.
/From one Libertarian to another.

[AF6LJ]

I don't know if there is a minimum wage law in the UK.  In the USA, we have a trend going in raising the minimum wage.  So here in the USA, we would expect more automation and less employment as well.

Minimum Wage Mythbusters
http://www.dol.gov/minwage/mythbuster.htm

Myth: Increasing the minimum wage will cause people to lose their jobs.

Not true: A review of 64 studies on minimum wage increases found no discernable effect on employment. Additionally, more than 600 economists, seven of them Nobel Prize winners in economics, have signed onto a letter in support of raising the minimum wage to $10.10 by 2016.

Come now, did you look at what site that came from?  DOL and you believe that?

Funny in Washington state where the new minimum wage went into effect the workers are asking for fewer hours to retain their welfare benefits.

[zapta]

Funny in Washington state where the new minimum wage went into effect the workers are asking for fewer hours to retain their welfare benefits.

And is Kalifornia, the unions ask for a special waiver  ;-)

http://www.latimes.com/local/cityhall/la-me-union-exemption-20150726-story.html#page=1

[Mechanical Menace]

Funny in Washington state where the new minimum wage went into effect the workers are asking for fewer hours to retain their welfare benefits.

Here we have a lot of problems with people not getting enough hours to get tax credits etc so end up on the dole. Companies will take people promising 30+ hours then only give people 16ish so they don't have to pay their share of the national insurance and tax for "full time" staff.

[zapta]

Here we have a lot of problems with people not getting enough hours to get tax credits etc so end up on the dole. Companies will take people promising 30+ hours then only give people 16ish so they don't have to pay their share of the national insurance and tax for "full time" staff.

Complain to the geniuses that made 30+ hours disproportionally expensive.

[Deathwish]

It's not just another Vending machine though is it really, what it really is is an indictment of our ever growing insular societies, as such things become more popular and easy to get hold of people become less interested in socializing, look at the internet,it has it's place but it is also creating a generation of people who sit in and play games, abuse each other on facebook etc and ultimately not go out of their door !.

In fact we used to have a mobile shop and chippy where I used to live until some prat complained and so the council stopped them trading. Nice one for the village idiot who complained