I am mathematically illiterate

[fonograph]

I have to admit one embarrasing fact about myself,my math and particulary my equation skills are extremly bad.I didnt study after I got 15 years old,whats even worse,I failed to learn math past about second grade.I only got through elementary school by cheating and my teachers being too merciful.I only went to engineering unrelated middle school one year,dropped out and never did any official education after that.

I realized some time later in my life I have big passion for electronics and my goal is to become electronic engineer.For past two years I have been reading and watching videos about electronics alot but my math skill deficiency is becoming limiting factor.I went around my weakness by seeking material that is light on math and explains stuff with words but this cant go on forever.

In my antenna thread someone suggested learning Maxwell equations and I was sad becose I knew there is no way in hell with my current math skill to ever be able to understand them.I also bought metric funkton of EE books and while the noob oriented ones I can diggest,the advanced ones are like just pages and pages covered in equations.The authors of these books are skilled in math,explain everything with math,if you dont know math,its like you cant even read that book.

I realized I must get my shit together and learn math.So I ask you,people of eevblog forum,can you give me some guidence on how to learn equations? I know math is huge and I would rather only spend time learning whats important from EE perspective,but I dont know what is so thats why I am asking you for help.I prefer learning from internet, youtube,Khan academy etc

[xrunner]

I didnt study after I got 15 years old,whats even worse,I failed to learn math past about second grade.

...

I realized I must get my shit together and learn math.So I ask you,people of eevblog forum,can you give me some guidence on how to learn equations? I know math is huge and I would rather only spend time learning whats important from EE perspective,but I dont know what is so thats why I am asking you for help.I prefer learning from internet, youtube,Khan academy etc

Hello.

Well I would have to say that if you are that far behind in math it would be best to either try free courses on the Internets (I haven't looked but I would bet there are quite a few). Either that or go take some basic algebra or perhaps even more basic than that, in your local community if you need the motivation of an instructor. If you really mean that you "failed to learn math past about second grade" you certainly have a lot of work to do. But I'm sure there are more suggestions coming.

Good Luck. 

[Mr. Scram]

The beauty of the internet is not only its depth, but also its width. Traditional schools present material in one or a few ways and if that's not right for you, that's it. The internet allows you to look around and find someone who can explain things in a way that you understand. It really pays to look around, rather than looking at a source that's not right for you and getting discouraged.

When you've done that, it's a matter of doing it and doing it a lot. I always remind myself of Brian Cox, a reasonably famous physicist. He once said that he really was terrible at maths too and only got good by doing it a lot. Even the people we look up at have had to work to acquire the skills. The trick is to go at it and to keep going at it until you get better.

That being said, it seems you've already found Khan Academy. What's stopping you from progressing through the years there and learning ever more advanced maths?

[tggzzz]

Become a software developer.

There innumeracy won't be noticed and might even be regarded as a badge of honour

[IanB]

I realized I must get my shit together and learn math.So I ask you,people of eevblog forum,can you give me some guidence on how to learn equations? I know math is huge and I would rather only spend time learning whats important from EE perspective,but I dont know what is so thats why I am asking you for help.I prefer learning from internet, youtube,Khan academy etc

It's really difficult learn without starting from the foundations and building up. If you try to skip steps and jump straight to more advanced things you will have tremendous difficulty understanding them.

So I would say you really need to start with high school textbooks and work through the things you missed early on.

[IanB]

I always remind myself of Brian Cox, a reasonably famous physicist. He once said that he really was terrible at maths too and only got good by doing it a lot.

When a physicist says they are "really terrible at maths" it may not mean what you think it means. It may mean they feel they are not quite up there with the super-geniuses of the world, but they may still be vastly better than you or I.

[fonograph]

Become a software developer.

There innumeracy won't be noticed and might even be regarded as a badge of honour

 










 

[fonograph]

The type of math that is about equations is called algebra?

[Mr. Scram]

When a physicist says they are "really terrible at maths" it may not mean what you think it means. It may mean they feel they are not quite up there with the super-geniuses of the world, but they may still be vastly better than you or I.

This was before he was a physicist: "He said on The Jonathan Ross Show that he performed poorly on his maths A-level exam: "I got a D ... I was really not very good ... I found out you need to practise."

I think he elaborated more on another occasion, but the gist was that maths skills aren't given even to scientists. You need to put the work in to get better. It's easy to get discouraged when you see people who are seemingly naturals, but almost all have had to struggle through being bad before getting better.

[xrunner]

The type of math that is about equations is called algebra?

Yup - you study the symbols of basic math like + - / * = and also the substitution of unknowns with symbols like x such as x + 4 = 10. Then you learn basic rules for solving these equations. It's really kind of fun if you start out basic and work your way up.

[fonograph]

Thank you xrunner!  I think my problem is not so much that I cant do the calculations,I think the actual calculating part is easy,the problem that kills me is knowing what do the symbols mean.I cant calculate something when I dont even know what the symbols mean.What stops me from being to able to solve them is that instead of numbers,these equations use letters and some weird hieroglyph looking things and it looks like wall of alien/chinese text.

[Mr. Scram]

Thank you xrunner!  I think my problem is not so much that I cant do the calculations,I think the actual calculating part is easy,the problem that kills me is knowing what do the symbols mean.I cant calculate something when I dont even know what the symbols mean.What stops me from being to able to solve them is that instead of numbers,these equations use letters and some weird hieroglyph looking things and it looks like wall of alien/chinese text.

That too sounds like a matter of familiarizing yourself with ever more complex maths. Sooner rather than later plugging numbers in stops working. You need to familiarize yourself with both what the symbols mean and how you solve the resulting equation. It doesn't help knowing a symbol means the integral of something if you don't know what to do with it. That's what exercises are for.

I see you've found Khan Academy. What's stopping you from progressing through the years and learning ever more complex maths?

[xrunner]

Thank you xrunner!  I think my problem is not so much that I cant do the calculations,I think the actual calculating part is easy,the problem that kills me is knowing what do the symbols mean.I cant calculate something when I dont even know what the symbols mean.What stops me from being to able to solve them is that instead of numbers,these equations use letters and some weird hieroglyph looking things and it looks like wall of alien/chinese text.

Well I don't think we want to start a math class here but yea the symbols are just telling you to do an operation. Like () parenthesis means "do this shit in here and find the value then work on the stuff outside", ... just learn what the symbols tell you to do and it's not that bad.

It's just a bunch of rules, which if followed lead to a correct answer. That why they say artificial intelligence can do math really well because it's just a bunch of rules. 

[Mr. Scram]

Well I don't think we want to start a math class here but yea the symbols are just telling you to do an operation. Like () parenthesis means "do this shit in here and find the value then work on the stuff outside", ... just learn what the symbols tell you to do and it's not that bad.

It's just a bunch of rules, which if followed lead to a correct answer. That why they say artificial intelligence can do math really well because it just a bunch of rules. 

Wolfram Alpha is already pretty good at doing rather complicated things. If you get it to understand your question, it tends to have the right answer.

[xrunner]

Wolfram Alpha is already pretty good at doing rather complicated things. If you get it to understand your question, it tends to have the right answer.

Oh yea I haven't played with that in a while I'll have to check it out again.

Say I was just thinking, does somebody have an equation solver on the web that actually shows how the equation is solved for the student? Like if they type in any equation it shows them step-by-step how the equation is solved and not just the answer? Let's them enter any equation and it shows the steps done in order? I bet somebody has done that and it would be a good teaching tool for people like fonograph.

[JS]

Algebra does work a lot on equations but so does calculus, which is more the kind of tools you need for maxwell equations if that's why you asked.

Being said that, learning calculus without understanding algebra is tricky if not impossible, I had parallel courses of both but advanced(ish) algebra with basic calculus. You need some basic algebra tools to go for the rest of the cake.

Now, you need to build up in math, in my degree I was talking to a teacher after I gave my final test of the class, known as one of the harder of the career, signals and systems, and I said him I prepared for the test in 3 days, that the class didn't appear to be that hard to me or have that many new concepts, but my math formation was in a different university, which had much better math classes. He agreed with me that the math department of the university was kind of falling apart and he was paying for that, in a class that was supposed to use a lot of mathematical tools to learn applications instead of teaching mathematics to be able to do the applications.
  What I mean with this, expend as much time in your math as you can, do simpler electronics in the mean while, or at least things where you don't need the math or was already done by somebody else, so you don't get bored of the journey. Once you get the math fluid all other stuff will come together pretty quickly.

The path is starting with all the high school math, then the university level my way was real function understanding, algebra, real calculus with single variable, then multiple variables, then complex variables and discrete math to finish, also some statistics.
  After that as I said signals and systems, which takes tools from all the others and puts them together in useful ways. Control theory also uses a lot of math and is very useful for EE.
  All that goes together with physics, and the electronics courses, I say this because if you get a good way to go meshing all together would be much more rewarding than waiting to have all the math tools available to start with the next step, which will be quite frustrating and you are likely to quit math again (let's hope you don't) before learning enough.

JS

[Mr. Scram]

Oh yea I haven't played with that in a while I'll have to check it out again.

Say I was just thinking, does somebody have an equation solver on the web that actually shows how the equation is solved for the student? Like if they type in any equation it shows them step-by-step how the equation is solved and not just the answer? Let's them enter any equation and it shows the steps done in order? I bet somebody has done that and it would be a good teaching tool for people like fonograph.

I think the paid app for Wolfram Alpha does or did that. They change things occasionally and I haven't used it recently, so I'm not sure it still does that. It was popular amongst students for this reason.

[CatalinaWOW]

The basic math curriculum used in school is appropriate.  Pick it up where you feel you dropped out.  Start with arithmetic.  The algebra.  Somewhere in those two make sure you pick up number systems and logarithms.  Traditionally geometry comes next, but you might be able to skip that.  Next trigonometry and basic calculus.  That takes you through what a good high school used to do.  For engineering you will need additional calculus including vector calculus, differential equations and linear algebra at a minimum.  The differential equations course will be the single most important key to understanding Maxwell's equations.  More math beyond that is good to have but it branches many directions and you will be able to pick for yourself at that point.  None of these is deadly difficult to understand, but as with anything else practice is required to make them into tools you can apply readily.

[rx8pilot]

Sign up on Khan Academy.

You can take aptitude tests to determine the level you are currently at. Then do the videos and lessons starting from that point. It is an amazing resource and can get you to some rather advanced topics. If you get stuck on a certain thing, just watch the videos once more, take the test again and/or look for alternate explanations on the web.

The key for me is practice and some repetition to the point where it 'clicks'. That is the point where I feel like I understand the concepts, not just memorized the steps. Mastery of the concepts is important because math is like a pyramid, it just keeps building on itself. 

[rstofer]

It was Satan himself that added letters to mathematics!

Literally everybody has trouble with first semester Algebra.  "Find X"  "Well, it's right here on the diagram, how far can it go!"

Enough levity, this is a serious situation because engineering is ALL math.  And I'll let you in on a secret:  Many practicing EEs don't understand Maxwell's Equations either.  Curl?  Divergence?  I struggled with that course!

Khan Academy is great!  Literally, it starts at Pre-School and works up through Differential Equations, Laplace Transforms and Fourier Series.  This is about the end of the line for EEs except those who take Field Theory (Maxwell's Equations).

CalcWorkshop.com is excellent.  It starts with Algebra and works up through Differential Equations.  It costs money but I gladly pay it to help my grandson through Calculus.  He got an 'A' in Calc I last semester so the program is worth every dime it costs.

Here's the thing:  You aren't going to learn math without thousands of hours of practice.  Why should you get to the level required for engineering any faster than we did?

Now, for a hobbyist, elementary Algebra is about all it takes.  Plus a little matrix math - just to the level of Gauss-Jordan Elimination.  It is nice to understand the differential equations behind RC, RL and RLC circuits but it might not be necessary.  That's why you take 4 semesters of Calculus and Linear Algebra before you get to Circuit Analysis.  It just takes a ton of math.

So, get started!  Pick a place to start in the Khan Academy series and go for it.  Set aside an hour or so each night and work at it.

There's a problem with YouTube tutorials and that is that you have a tendency to just watch.  That is not the same as 'learn'.  You need to solve problems for yourself.  Khan Academy has quizzes throughout the program.  Be sure to work them all.  Maybe even find text books at Alibris.com - something cheap.  Almost every book will have problems and answers for some.

Desmos.com for plotting equations
Symbolab.com for solving more complex problems  (like pre-calc and Calculus problems).

[rstofer]

Oh yea I haven't played with that in a while I'll have to check it out again.

Say I was just thinking, does somebody have an equation solver on the web that actually shows how the equation is solved for the student? Like if they type in any equation it shows them step-by-step how the equation is solved and not just the answer? Let's them enter any equation and it shows the steps done in order? I bet somebody has done that and it would be a good teaching tool for people like fonograph.

I think the paid app for Wolfram Alpha does or did that. They change things occasionally and I haven't used it recently, so I'm not sure it still does that. It was popular amongst students for this reason.

Try symbolab.com  If you subscribe you get a more detailed explanation but you get the big picture even with the cheap seats.  I subscribe!

I think symbolab is focused on Calculus.

[TerraHertz]

You could look online and in 2nd hand bookstores for high school maths textbook sets. Maybe try abebooks.com
Pretty sure old HS math texts will be really cheap. Avoid anything from the modern 'common core' curriculum, it's brain-poison.
It's a lot more convenient reading physical paper books, than on screen. Also you can jot notes, work examples etc.

Another possibly good idea would be to ask around (local schools/Uni?) for someone willing to give you free or cheap math tutoring. Having someone who can evaluate your math state of knowledge and focus on advancing that, would help a lot. Since you 'don't know what you don't know' so to speak. Also they can make you do the necessary exercises. Sort of like a maths gym trainer.
This is actually what I need. If I had the motivation.

https://www.google.com/search?q=find+x+here+it+is+math+jokes

[fonograph]

Thank you all for the avalanche of great tips! 

[xrunner]

Try symbolab.com  If you subscribe you get a more detailed explanation but you get the big picture even with the cheap seats.  I subscribe!

I think symbolab is focused on Calculus.

Yea that's really nice for learners. We had nothing like that in 1985 at university we just got together in a study group. Like Bob Dylan says the times they are a changin'. 

[vk6zgo]

It is a lot easier to learn maths as an adult, than as a child.
For a start, you are not as likely to be distracted by just about anything.

One thing that happens ( happened to me), is that if, when first being introduced to Algebra, you miss one
class due to illness, by the time the next one comes around, everybody has moved on, & you are still bobbing in their wake.
Teachers love to refer to "transferring" part of an equation from one side of the equation to the other, assuming the kids understand the basic rule of equations --"whatever you do to one side, you have to do to the other".

You can't do maths?
Well, just by functioning in society, you are using it all the time.
Here's one:-

How many cents in  $10?

                         in.  $100?
You will say - that's easy, just multiply the dollar amount by 100---------  (1)

OK, how many cents in $n?

Obviously the same rules apply, so Number of cents in $n = 100n----------(2)

We can now select any numerical value for n & always be able to determine this information for any value of n

But wait, isn't that what you already did in (1) above?

By the way, (2) is a bit long winded, so if we can represent "Number of cents in"  as a letter, we can write it as , maybe "c" for cents, so  we can say. c=100n ------(3)
(for the specific case of converting dollars into cents.)

But wait, there's more!


Maybe you have a lot of cents & want to convert them to dollars.
Can we use (3). In a different way?

As c=100n is an equation, we can do the same thing to each side.

If we divide both sides by 100, we  get c/100= 100n/100 ----(4)

Obviously, 100 goes into 100n, "n" times so:-  c/100 =n, which, as we want to
find out n, we would normally write it as---------------------------------n=c/100-----(5)
                             
From the original discussion,we know that n represents the number of dollars, so for, say, 455cents you would end up with $4.55.

All stuff you do in your head whenever you sort out your change!