I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning

[Richard Crowley]

The auidophools value the number of zeros on the price tag.

Now I will openly confess that I am not a "Golden Ear" who can tell the difference between ordinary cable and premium, botique snake-oil cable.

HOWEVER, the "Golden Ears" audiophools can't tell the difference either, unless they can SEE the cable.  That is why you will never see any of them actually proving it by participating in double-blind listening tests.  They have rushed right past objective and even subjective and landed in imaginary-land.  They squandered whatever credibility they may have had several decades ago.  They earned their moniker "audiophool" the hard way, by actually working for it.

[miguelvp]

Professional gamers (yup there is such a thing) can tell if a game frame dropped at 60Hz (16.666ms) I couldn't but I'm not going to negate that they can't because I can't.

Same applies to professional racers, they can be on the edge of grip vs sliding out of control.

Just because we can't perceive the extra sound quality it doesn't mean others can perceive it. Still it does sound silly to me to purchase those very expensive cables, it has to have some placebo aspect to it, but so what, it's their money.

They probably spend more on the right arrangement of furniture and sound dampening items situated at the perfect location than on the stupid cables to begin with.

One thing that irks me is how restaurants don't use a professional sound engineers to design a public place where the echos of a crowded place just doesn't make your stay a better experience, you'll think that the right acoustics designed in a place that is going to be crowded will help. I know there are specialists in that area, but businesses never think about it so most places are just loud due to poor acoustic design (if any).

[TheBorg]

One thing that irks me is how restaurants don't use a professional sound engineers to design a public place where the echos of a crowded place just doesn't make your stay a better experience, you'll think that the right acoustics designed in a place that is going to be crowded will help. I know there are specialists in that area, but businesses never think about it so most places are just loud due to poor acoustic design (if any).

Where do I sign the petition? 

I honestly do think audiophiles have a point, and I do believe that better sound can be had through better equipment. For me, I personally hate the sound of the included white Apple earbuds. They sound tinny and crappy and cheap. Put them next to even a $25 pair of IEMs and you'll hear loads of difference (mostly due to isolation, but still). But you can go too far and be caught up in tubes and amps and dirty electrons distorting your sound.

Basically, the cost of most every hobby increases exponentially the better equipment you try to get. With EE's, this is usually high precision meters, etc, audiophiles the perfect setup and 24k gold cables, etc. What's important is trying to stay content somewhere in the middle of the curve where you know your equipment is as good as you are realistically going to need/use. Alternatively there is point C on the graph, representing the point at which your wallet is empty.

[FrankBuss]

I've programmed audio monitoring software for some years and I can see too if there are for example some dropped frames with a 60 Hz framerate in the fallback of a (simulated) audio bargraph. But you can measure this as well. Once I even used a photodiode to display the delay from signal input to visual output with an oscilloscope and to measure the drops (easy with advanced triggering on pulse length). But ridiculous expensive speaker cables don't have a measurable difference (except in the filling level of your wallet ).

[Richard Crowley]

Just because we can't perceive the extra sound quality it doesn't mean others can perceive it.

Yes it does. Because they are unable to actually demonstrate that they can perceive it.  They never participate in double-blind tests because they can't tell premium from ordinary any better than you or I can. 

Now I truly believe they THINK they can perceive the difference, and they are willing to pay $$$$ for that delusion.  I suppose that is more socially respectable than spending the $$$$ on mind-altering chemistry. 

[zapta]

Just because we can't perceive the extra sound quality it doesn't mean others can perceive it

It's possible that there are aspects of reality that we cannot measure yet, however the audiophiles claims be tested with a simple blind experiment. Take a few audiophiles, have then listening in exact some conditions except for one variable selected randomly (e.g. a new wire vs broken in wire) and let then guess which is which. If their success or failure rate differs significantly from the statistical expectation then they may be on something. Than you can look for explanations.

Similar to James Randy's experiment with the Australians:

[dannyf]

Because they are unable to actually demonstrate that they can perceive it.

Two things:

1) (minor) the fact that no one can detect the difference doesn't by itself mean that the difference doesn't exist. Absence of proof is not the same as proof of absence.

2) (more importantly) nor could the voltnuts, or scopenuts perceive a difference between 1v vs. 1.000001v or 1.5v/us rise vs. 1.500001v/us rise, without equipment.

With even a <$5 in equipment, I can demonstrate to anyone the difference between a high quality cable vs. a poor quality cable. With a $2million scope, I am sure I can show a few more differences,

[calexanian]

I am currently the on call technician for Alan Parsons.. You know what brand cables we use in his studio? Whatever is laying around!! Most of it is old RS electronics stuff he bought closeout before he moved to the US. Basically Radio Shack quality stuff. We joke from time to time about all this nonsense.  Also every couple of years i have dinner with a group of grey beards, one of which is Laurie Fincham president of engineering at THX. Same conversation. What snake oil! We joked about making a audio cable with polarity markings running both ways and seeing if you could sell it as special Bi Polar wire. 10 foot bi polar speaker wire sets. only $1259 a set! All we need to sell is one pair a week or so. hahahahahaha... Or like the jokers selling hemp cone speakers and saying they invented it. Hemp was always used in speakers up until polyfiber took over in the 70's and 80's What marketing jerks....

[Kremmen]

Because they are unable to actually demonstrate that they can perceive it.

Two things:

1) (minor) the fact that no one can detect the difference doesn't by itself mean that the difference doesn't exist. Absence of proof is not the same as proof of absence.

True, but a difference that is undetectable is not a difference that matters. If you cannot detect the improvement an audiophool accessory (or any other kind of accessory) brings, why bother?

2) (more importantly) nor could the voltnuts, or scopenuts perceive a difference between 1v vs. 1.000001v or 1.5v/us rise vs. 1.500001v/us rise, without equipment.

Ditto.

With even a <$5 in equipment, I can demonstrate to anyone the difference between a high quality cable vs. a poor quality cable. With a $2million scope, I am sure I can show a few more differences,

A difference that matters? I bet you can't, actually. Or only if the poor quality cable is in fact broken or grossly unfit for purpose.

[miguelvp]

Surely Royalty can be more sensitive to stimuli:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Princess_and_the_Pea

[dannyf]

We joked about making a audio cable...

Why just joke about it? Go make one. You will be richer and someone somewhere will be happier.

A win-win situation to me.

[tom66]

There ARE differences between bargain basement amplifiers and premium/prosumer amps. They do sound better - typically lower noise floor, better frequency response and lower THD.

There is little or no difference beyond most premium gear like $20k audiophile amps.

However, once you get past a point - about 0.1% THD or lower - I don't think any audiophile would be able to blindly separate them.

[German_EE]

I agree with the basis of your statement however there is still a little mystery here. Go along to your local Hi-Fi showroom and arrange a listening test of premium equipment using your favorite piece of music. The salesman will switch between amplifiers and almost everyone will be able to hear subtle differences in the sound. The amplifier SHOULD have a flat frequency response from (say) 20 Hz to 30 KHz yet one amplifier will sound different to another.

Why is this?

There are hundreds of possible answers from the output impedance of the power supply to the characteristics of the power transistors under load and all of these variables work together. Get an audio spectrum analyzer and a good scope and it's possible that you might see a difference in the waveforms between amplifier A and amplifier B but I wouldn't like to guarantee it.

Polarity sensitive speaker cables, rocks on your connectors, wooden knobs instead of metal ones, these differences cannot be measured and I will put good money against a blind test that they cannot be heard. There are however differences in output 'tone' when considering one high-end amplifier against another because we can hear it.

[calexanian]

There ARE differences between bargain basement amplifiers and premium/prosumer amps. They do sound better - typically lower noise floor, better frequency response and lower THD.

There is little or no difference beyond most premium gear like $20k audiophile amps.

However, once you get past a point - about 0.1% THD or lower - I don't think any audiophile would be able to blindly separate them.

Whats sad is that even the plain Jane LM3886 can produce sub 0.1% THD and is all of 3.50 each in quantity and can use standard 1/4 watt resistors and standard electrolytic caps around it. I guarantee you is i set up a blind A/B comparison. between a just ad water instant oats 3886 circuit and a 5K plus fancy amp with all else being equal, the comments would be a 50/50 average of each. I think we should do this test as a the EEVblog community. Yes you could make a convincing argument for added features, integrated preamps, number of inputs and outputs, build quality, aesthetics,  etc... Ok. Fine. A Nissan Versa will deliver me to my destination in the same safe manner as lets say an Aston Martin. But the Aston is way more fun... That concept I understand. The difference is where the two cars do not handle anywhere near each other in performance, two 50 watt sub 0.1% THD amplifiers over the the same response range can be proven to be identical. Everything else is psychosomatic. I personally like the look of McIntosh amplifiers. I understand why they cost more than a Sony integrated amp. I just hate when the bullshit marketing people get involved. I will stick with my $5 swap meet found radio shack 10 watt per channel integrated receiver thank you very much and save my money.

[FrankBuss]

Such a test would be interesting. But you can't convince people who believe in cable polarity. If they were right in 50% of the tests for the orientation, I guess such people would say "that's not bad, I could identify it sometimes, so there must be a difference"

[Richard Crowley]

Highly recommended viewing for anyone who puts any stock in listening tests...

"A Different Take on Blind Audio Tests" - Jon Iverson of stereophile.com
http://twit.tv/show/home-theater-geeks/221

[dannyf]

all else being equal

Depending on what's in that "all".

It is actually quite easy to tell amps apart, especially if you are allowed to drive them into clipping and they have different clipping points - a 70w LM3886 vs. a 1w tube amp for example.

If you were to keep the amps within their performance envelope, it is incredibly difficult to tell amps apart - that's essentially the stunt that Carver pulled back then. Prof. Leach (rip) has a link on his site to a research report where "audiophiles" were pitted between a SS and valve amp and other than a couple, none of them could tell the two apart statistically. The couple who did did so by honing in the 50hz hum from the valve amp.

[dannyf]

Highly recommended viewing for anyone who puts any stock in listening tests...

"A Different Take on Blind Audio Tests" - Jon Iverson of stereophile.com
http://twit.tv/show/home-theater-geeks/221

Jon explains how results these tests depend not only on hardware and engineering but *********more so the ability of the individuals ear*********.

Dude, isn't that the whole point of a dbx?

[Excavatoree]

all else being equal

D Prof. Leach (rip) has a link on his site to a research report where "audiophiles" were pitted between a SS and valve amp and other than a couple, none of them could tell the two apart statistically. The couple who did did so by honing in the 50hz hum from the valve amp.

I had no idea Dr. Leach had passed away almost 4 years ago.  He was one of my favorite professors.   He went to the lab and helped me with my Gilbert Gain cell multiplier that I was having problems with.   I couldn't believe a professor was taking the time to help an undergrad with a lab exercise.

In his office, he had an open frame amplifier that he used to play background music.   It wasn't much to look at, but worked beautifully.  My greatest regret is that I never took his audio engineering class.

Apologies to all for the OT post.

[G0HZU]

A lot of it still boils down to what motivates us as humans. I'm sure the audiophiles don't just buy the cables for the (imaginary) performance gains. They are also status symbols within their community no matter how misguided they all are.

Women will happily spend $$$ on needless status symbols like designer handbags or shoes and men/women will spend a fortune on watches or jewellery. In electronics, you will get some people needlessly spending silly money on numerous megadigit DMMs and calibration tools because these are status symbols within that part of the electronics community.

However, if the focus is on hifi then you will get people spending stupid money on needless hifi accessories. The snake oil salesmen simply exploit this vulnerability and come up with dafter and dafter products to make the punters part with their cash.

Obviously a decent watch or diamond ring will usually hold its value (or even go up in value) and the hifi products (and handbags and shoes) are grossly overpriced for what they are but that doesn't stop the enthusiast wanting the blingy cables or fuses or the pretty  $$$ granite slabs.

[dannyf]

he had an open frame amplifier

Likely the low TIM "Leach" amp.

That discussion really started the revolution in audio philosophy over the last 20 or so years, of migrating from a focus on low-THD from high gain to low gain + low/no negative feedback. Difficult for the "chip amp" guys to comprehend,

[Richard Crowley]

Jon explains how results these tests depend not only on hardware and engineering but *********more so the ability of the individuals ear*********.

Dude, isn't that the whole point of a dbx?

Are you willing to spend a pile of cash on something (a cable or whatever) that MAYBE sounds SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT to SOME people? 
Not "better", simply "different". In MY world, THAT distinction isn't worth the electrons it took to display this sentence on your screen.

[dannyf]

On "golden ear types": most of golden ear types don't have superior hearing - put them to a dbx and they will fail.

That doesn't mean that there doesn't exist people who may have superior or even superb hearing. You just need to keep an open mind for such people / possibilities.

[dannyf]

In MY world...

Then more power to you.

The point is that whether it is worth it to you or me or somebody else is highly subjective and none of anybody else's business. You have no right to impose your judgment on others, nor do others have the right to impose their judgment on you.

You just need to be more tolerant to others who share a different view / value system.

[miguelvp]

On my guitar if I have one string off by a little bit it changes drastically the sound of a chord and makes it sound bad. But if I play the individual note that is off, I can't tell that it's out of tune.

Maybe it's more a matter of being able to appreciate the whole than the particular frequencies.

Just playing a bit devil's advocate.