I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning

[Richard Crowley]

I agree with @calexanian.  If "golden-ears" people want to squander large amounts of money on premium goods because it shows how rich or elite or whatever they fancy themselves to be, then go for it.

But don't bother trying to justify it with psuedo-science mumbo-jumbo gobbeldygook arguments full of impressive sounding terms but meaning nothing.

Yes, I am impressed with the superior imaginations possessed by "golden ears" people.  I will concede that they ACTUALLY CAN HEAR the differences when they can PROVE it in statistically-valid tests.  Meanwhile, I can only conclude that they are inflating their imagination with cash.

[Rufus]

You just need to be more tolerant to others who share a different view / value system.

You mean we should treat and respect audiophoolery like a religion?

[dannyf]

If "golden-ears" people want to squander large amounts of money on premium goods because it shows how rich or elite or whatever they fancy themselves to be, then go for it.

If ***anyone*** wants to squander ***any*** amounts of money on ***anything*** for ***any reason*** or ***no reason at all***, then go for it.

That's the beauty of living in a free society,

[Richard Crowley]

If ***anyone*** wants to squander ***any*** amounts of money on ***anything*** for ***any reason*** or ***no reason at all***, then go for it.

Right. But that is not what the issue is here, is it? 
As I understand it, the issue here is the attempt to justify charging high prices by deception and puffery.

Nobody who is selling a wristwatch that costs 1000x more than your average commodity quartz mass-market thing is claiming that the premium watch is 1000x BETTER.
It just costs 1000x more because that is what people want to pay to get that brand name on their wrist.

Same with audiophool gear.  The "difference" can't be measured because there is no difference.
And the "difference" can't be demonstrated to be perceived by the Golden Eears because they are either unable or unwilling to prove it.

Could they make a watch that is accurate to 0.0001 second per year?  Possibly.
Would it be worth the huge extra cost?  Not to anybody in the Real World.
People who need high-precision timing don't rely on wrist-watches.

[dannyf]

As I understand it, the issue here is the attempt to justify charging high prices by deception and puffery.

That may not be the right understanding. From where I sit, it is people claiming that it is unjustified because they couldn't hear the difference so no one could hear the difference so it mus be deception and "puffery".

Just as every buyer of anything is entitled to pay as much as s/he wants for it, any seller of anything is entitled to ask as much (or as little) as s/he wants for it.

It is none of our business if that price, however high or low, is justified or not.

What I take real objection to is people's insistence that other free people shouldn't have the right to do things in certain ways that some of us disapprove of. They seem to think that they are entitled to project their views onto the rest of the society.

That's just so wrong on so many levels.

[c4757p]

What I take real objection to is people's insistence that other free people shouldn't have the right to do things in certain ways that some of us disapprove of.

Why does it always have to come down to an argument about rights? The general consensus here seems to be that the sellers of these items are wrong for lying about the item's benefits. I don't see very many people advocating removing their right to do that, though you always seem to swoop in to insist we have. I for one fully support the seller's right to be a horrid twat, but I also support my own right to then point out that he is a horrid twat. Likewise, I fully support the buyer's right to flush his money down the crapper, but I also support my own right to claim that's what he is doing.

Rights for everyone! Not just sellers and the loose-walleted.

[NiHaoMike]

Then there are the audiofools who claim two separate runs for the highs and lows coming off the same amp make a difference. It's nonsense like many other audiofool beliefs, but it does get them ready for something that could in fact increase audio quality which is separate amps for the highs and lows. Use a high supply voltage, (relatively) low carrier frequency amp for the lows and a low supply voltage, very high carrier frequency amp for the highs. Perform the crossover in DSP and you have it! Better yet, put the amp assemblies right next to the speakers and send the audio by optical fiber, with a switch on the amps selecting whether to use the left or right channel. And design the amps to automatically power on and off with the signal (easily done with only a few mW use in the "off" state) so you don't have to manually do that. With a little more effort, it could be designed such that the volume setting can be sent over the fiber, though that might not be possible sticking to the S/PDIF standard.

[Corporate666]

In MY world...

Then more power to you.

The point is that whether it is worth it to you or me or somebody else is highly subjective and none of anybody else's business. You have no right to impose your judgment on others, nor do others have the right to impose their judgment on you.

You just need to be more tolerant to others who share a different view / value system.

It's more than that though.... the hucksters selling the audiophoolery junk are making claims that are factually false, whether it be representing things incorrectly or whether it be simply making insinuations and spouting out buzzwords.   As the link earlier stated, if it was simply companies saying "we made these really cool cables out of high-cost parts", that would be one thing.  But to them represent them as having effects they don't have, like "deepening the sound stage" or "adding significant robustness to the notes", they are lying for the sake of money.  And that's tantamount to fraud.

[Zero999]

Just as every buyer of anything is entitled to pay as much as s/he wants for it, any seller of anything is entitled to ask as much (or as little) as s/he wants for it.

It is none of our business if that price, however high or low, is justified or not.

What I take real objection to is people's insistence that other free people shouldn't have the right to do things in certain ways that some of us disapprove of. They seem to think that they are entitled to project their views onto the rest of the society.

No one should have the right to sell something under completely false pretences because they're committing fraud. It's fair enough if a seller markets their product on specifications or even brand and aesthetics and charge what they like for it but claiming it can achieve things it can't is deceiving the buyer and therefore fraud.

If someone wants to sell an amplifier with that extra order of magnitude lower distortion and wider bandwidth than anyone can hear, that's fair enough but making false claims about their products such as it requires special magic cable is completely wrong and they deserve to get done for it.

[dannyf]

completely false pretences

What "completely false pretences" do you think they have commited, in their words?

claiming it can achieve things it can't

What claims have they made, in their words, that in your view it achieved?

[bob808]

Oh, I need to get some popcorn for this 

[c4757p]

Oh, I need to get some popcorn for this 

Don't bother, it's completely predictable. Have a good movie with your popcorn instead.

[bob808]

You may be right, but I am still astounded by the fact that "believers" are trying to debate this on an Electronics Engineering forum.
That stuff may work on diyaudio or audiokarma or forums that are more audio related. Here you'll just get your head bashed by facts and measurement procedures and pure physics.

[miguelvp]

You may be right, but I am still astounded by the fact that "believers" are trying to debate this on an Electronics Engineering forum.

Not sure what thread you are following, maybe the movie you are watching to go with the popcorn is distracting you

[bob808]

I am following this one
I am wondering, is there any owner/engineer at any of these companies that are selling Zen solutions that actually believes what they're selling/saying? Or are just laughing their ass off while the shelves are emptying?
I sure do love the way some cables look thou. But I guess that's all for me.

[dannyf]

I am wondering, is there any owner/engineer at any of these companies that are selling Zen solutions that actually believes what they're selling/saying? Or are just laughing their ass off while the shelves are emptying?

The two are not mutually exclusive. There is a demand for something - however, irrational you may think of it.

You have two options:

1) do nothing;
2) take advantage of it by satisfying that demand. They are happier and you are richer (aka pareto optimal).

The difficulties many "engineering" types face are due to their insistence of taking a simplistic view of the world we live in. Everything has to be black or white. They are unable to comprehend the notion that humans are incredibly complex and the black-or-white approach does not always work. They always want to "optimize", without understanding that sometimes it is optimal to be sub-optimal.

Thus, taking some classes in humanity or economics will help greatly.

[bob808]

Still, by scientific method we have developed technologies and drugs that help you when you are sick.
What if you have a medical problem, and the doctor would recommend a piece of expensive wire that has some properties that can't be measured, and they manifest random at people who have the ability to accept the wire's help?
My point is that "beliefs" have no place in engineering hangouts.
I can accept everyone, but if I happen to have an opinion, I will share it.
Now, there is no demand without the bulls*it about cryo and cable polarity and weird wood risers and pseudo-science.
And they prey on the gullible. That's why, here, you can't have discussions about stuff like that. You could try, but you will only face reality around here.


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[Zero999]

completely false pretences

What "completely false pretences" do you think they have commited, in their words?

claiming it can achieve things it can't

What claims have they made, in their words, that in your view it achieved?

ARE YOU JOKING? You really haven't read some of the audiophool bullshit which we're condemning here have you?

Dark matter optical coating for CDs
http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina51.htm

Special stick on rocks for cables
http://www.shakti-innovations.com/audiovideo.htm

Silly cable stands
http://www.oregondv.com/CableElevators.htm

They make false claims about all of the above improving the sound quality of an audio system and charge obscene prices - it's fraud!

[bob808]

@miguel and dannyf
So, basically you are promoting the idea that it's ok to go get a bite (pun intended) from this market right? Under the assumption that hey, it's there for the taking. Created by others, you'd just supply the demand?
I think this is immoral, and represents a good portion of what's wrong in many aspects of today's society. You could use your gift and make something that could be of actual use. I think that learning engineering to infatuate some customers and prey on the others is wrong.


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[Zero999]

So, basically you are promoting the idea that it's ok to go get a bite (pun intended) from this market right? Under the assumption that hey, it's there for the taking. Created by others, you'd just supply the demand?
I think this is immoral, and represents a good portion of what's wrong in many aspects of today's society. You could use your gift and make something that could be of actual use. I think that learning engineering to infatuate some customers and prey on the others is wrong.

I agree, the idea that just because they're people ignorant enough to be conned out of their money, then doing so is a valid business model is disgusting.

[dannyf]

Still, by scientific method ...

I think that's the poster child of the small-mindedness I was talking about earlier.

You have to understand that the world is far more complex than we will ever comprehend, or science will ever be able to explain. Rejecting a view/ observation/theory because it is inconsistent with today's scientific understanding is itself unscientific.

[dannyf]

ARE YOU JOKING?

Calm down. No reason to shout as we can hear you perfectly fine.

Dark matter optical coating for CDs

So specifically with regards to that and other examples:

1) What "completely false pretences" do you think they have commited, in their words?
2) What claims have they made, in their words, that in your view it cannot achieve?

[miguelvp]

@miguel

Don't put words in my mouth 

Only thing I said is that I can tell if my guitar is out of tune by playing a chord, but I wouldn't be able to tell by playing the individual notes of the chord.
I'll add that I prefer the wine of the region I was born and raised and I'm particularly inclined to the gastronomy of the same region.

Others won't agree on those tastes, so? But now that I live in Chicago, I have to pay way more than back in my hometown to experience those tastes, foolish, not to me.

[bob808]

Exactly, science is explaining phenomena via calculus and measurements. You are posting on such forum, not on a life philosophy forum. Please respect that.
It is not that we, or at least I am not open to new, yet undiscovered phenomena, it's just that I will believe that when it is properly translated by science. Asking me to believe something that science will never be able to explain is a lost cause.
Mind you, if you do have some personal research please share some, in a scientific manner. If you've been brainwashed (I'm not saying you have been) please go preach that nonsense somewhere else. Dark matter coating on CDs? Do you really have to ask? This is not a question of "maybe dark matter is everywhere and we're all coated in it" (basically he would not be lying if that was the case), it's about using those terms to convince people that they are buying cutting edge tech.
That belongs to the "loony bin" where a perpetuum mobile also belongs (outside of theory).
If you study some NLP techniques you'll be able to convince people of a lot of crazy stuff. That doesn't make it true, or moral.
You should not post this bulls*it around this forum. If you have something good to contribute, ok, I can respect that. Just don't mock the eevblog community.


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[nitro2k01]

Dark matter optical coating for CDs

So specifically with regards to that and other examples:

1) What "completely false pretences" do you think they have commited, in their words?
2) What claims have they made, in their words, that in your view it cannot achieve?

The best way of being a charlatan is to invent a problem that doesn't exist, so you can say that you technically didn't lie, upon scrutiny. They're talking an awful lot about how to solve the problem, but the whole the description of the actual problem fits within a single sentence:

Dark Matter absorbs background scattered infrared light that could otherwise make its way into the photodetector as noise.

We are to take it on their word that scattered light will penetrate the aluminium foil, scatter, once again penetrate the aluminium foil and then that whatever is left of the light "could' be picked up as noise. We are expected to believe that the manufacturer of the CD player didn't cover the inside of the player housing with a material that absorbs all relevant wavelengths to prevent them from scattering inside the player.
So again, since they're failing to demonstrate that this is actually a problem, they're not technically lying when they're claiming to solve the problem. But, this bit stood out to me as well:

Coloring CDs improves the sound because colors, especially green and blue-green (red's complement) affect the visible red color portion of the scattered laser light - the laser is not, strictly speaking, monochromatic so there is some visible red in the background scattered light. However, the infrared scattered light - because it's invisible - cannot be influenced by color, i.e., there is no complementary color for infrared light. So other means must be employed to absorb it before it can reach the photodetector

This makes very little sense. They're framing the light spectrum in terms of visible and are talking about complementary colors, which doesn't make sense in the context. What does talking about complementary colors matter for light that will never reach the eye? "However, the infrared scattered light - because it's invisible - cannot be influenced by color ... So other means must be employed to absorb it" This describes IR light as something very mysterious, that only this magical product can block.

Outright lies? Not sure. Filled with weasel words for luring people who are illiterate about these things? Certainly.

Edit: Haha. Just looked at the rest of the site. It seems like the "Dark Matter" coating was literally the sanest product they're selling. Scattered infrared light? Infrared light exists, so maybe it does something. Who knows right? Now take a look at the "Blue Meanies", a sticker you can put on a wall to tune a room.

http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina47.htm

The Blue Meanie is neither a damper nor a resonator so it's location on the wall, unlike dampers and resonators, is not critical whatsoever. A Blue Meanie can be placed anywhere on the wall; it can even be hidden behind a picture or bookcase. Four white 3/4" removeable paper stickers are provided to cover the blue dots if desired, making them less conspicuous. Codename Blue Meanies operates via mind matter-interaction. The subconscious mind interacts with room boundaries, i.e., closed-in spaces, producing a claustrophobic reaction that interferes with and degrades the listener's sensory perception. It's like putting in a better set of interconnects. Price $99 for set of 4 Blue Meanies.

Mind matter-interaction. The subconscious mind interacts with room boundaries. Yes, totally not snake oil. Note how they're careful to point out that these stickers actually have no physical tangible effect, again useful if someone would have the propensity to claim that they're lying.

And of course, they have a pebble product.

http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina31.htm

Sometimes I wonder if some of these pages are actually a psychological experiment, or just comedy. As per Poe's Law, I'm stumped.