I Smell Bullshit Overunity

[Rick Law]

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ECO-GEN Energy welcomes all visitors to its facility in Van Nuys, California and to our manufacturing plant in Paramount, CA to witness the fourth generation of renewable energy generation and will make available to all visitors full comprehensive documentation and other supporting materials that prove the capability of this revolutionary new power plant technology.

Anybody local ?

Being in Van Nuys would put them about 20 minutes drive from the one of the many wildfire currently savaging Southern California.  Anyone local would probably be too busy/too worry to go that close if they don't have to.

See the attached firemap (I circled Van Nuys) or the current google crisismap linked below.

_{http://google.org/crisismap/google.com/2017-ventura-county-wildfire?hl=en&llbox=34.6376%2C34.0604%2C-117.6123%2C-119.3701&t=TERRAIN&layers=5%2C16%2C17}


Side note:

I have been up-close to a wild fire.  I was less than a 100 feet from a two-lane road and just across the road was a wood - that whole wood was burning, I just see the rows lining the the road - but fire as far as eyes can see.  Burning cinders were jumping the road already.  It was a very scary thing.  My best wishes to anyone caught in this Southern California nightmare.

[StillTrying]

"The Switched Reluctance Motor controller pulls off the back EMF in the Negative Phase so there is not an interaction of the Magnetic Fields, therefore, we do not violate Lentz’s Law. By diverting the negative energy we reduce the resistance in Lentz’s Law. This negative energy can then be converted and stored in the battery brick. This increases the efficiencies of all motors by over 50%. When Lentz’s Law was written, electronics, circuit boards, resistors, capacitors and high speed switching did not exist."

http://revolution-green.com/netzero-power-generators-or-deja-vu
 

[Kire Pûdsje]

"Real-time satellite monitoring with GPS." 

Probably not a lie, if you take it literally, it will probably monitor GPS satellites.
Just like any other GPS module also performs real time satellite monitoring.

[IanMacdonald]

Looked at quite a few of these 'over unity' ideas, and it strikes me that:

All claim to give more energy out than drive the thing... BUT if that's the case why don't they do a closed loop demo, with the output PROVIDING the input? If they could do that it would be a 'Wright Brothers Moment' - a clear and incontrovertible proof that it can be done. 

Instead, they invariably compare the readings of input and output DMMs and calculate wattage from that. Here lurk two massive gotchas -that power is not necessarily equal to VxI in AC circuits, and that under pulsed conditions many cheap DMMs will totally misread anyway. I suspect it is the experimenters' lack of understanding of this that leads to false conclusions. 

Rossi demonstrated his E-Cat much like that, powering from mains and dumping the steam it produced down the drain after measuring the water volume and claiming that the amount boiled off could not be accounted for by the energy input. Why for heaven's sake did he not buy a small steam engine and generator and PRODUCE the input power from the steam? That would be the gold standard proof that it works. OK, steam engines are not all that efficient so there might be issues with losses being greater than gains, but I'm surprised he didn't at least try to create a closed loop. 

The Bedini motor/generator is an interesting one - he claims to be able to charge one SLA battery from another through the machine, then reverse the process leaving both SLAs in a better state of charge than before. The problem I see with this is that he was (I believe) using old SLAs which were probably sulphated, and putting pulsed current through a sulphated battery will tend to rejuvenate it by breaking the (insulating) sulphate off the plates.

Thus, the 'excess energy' in this case may simply arise from the battery having been charged before it became sulphated, and the removal of the sulphate unlocking this stored energy. Just my theory but it would explain his results.

[IanB]

If they say in the first line "Solar Panels (not shown) and DC Generators D constantly charge the batteries." how does one arrive at an overunity conclusion?

It seems a silly contraption but that's not overunity. The hallmark of overunity is to conceal the input energy source. Unless you want to be deceived by having it hidden in plain sight.

How is it overunity?

Well, firstly from their web site:

• Measures 8 ft x 5.5 ft x 7 ft
• Weighs approximately 5,000 lb
• Requires only 4 solar panels
• Typical power output 525,600 kWh/year (= 60 kW 24/7)

Do you think you can get 1,440 kWh in a day from 4 solar panels?

Of course they could be wildly exaggerating the numbers and simply making false claims to sucker people.

But in case you doubt me, look at their functional block diagram (captured here for posterity):

[beanflying]

I'm not interested in debating whether or not it is a pile of crap. All I am saying is that because they show a picture of the Sun as an energy input it is not fair to lambast it as overunity.

It is wrong, and that ought to be a sufficient reason to not label it overunity. Once you attempt to criticise something for something it does not claim to be, you diminish your own credibility.

Or if you prefer the BS analogy. A pile of shit stinks sufficiently for there to be no reason to claim it stinks more than a pile of shit.

At that scale all I see is a number of 10-30% losses each time they swap power from one form to another. Not enough coming in for a start means

[IanB]

Once you attempt to criticise something for something it does not claim to be, you diminish your own credibility.

Did you even look at the picture I posted? The 40 HP motors (30 kW) that consume less than 8 kW of electrical power?

But in case that is not convincing enough, let me quote their own words:

The JouleBox® is designed to run continuously and only turned off once per year for scheduled maintenance, regardless if there is any sunlight for the solar panels.

The 3 – 40 HP motors use <200 watts per horsepower or <24 kW total for all 3.

I trust you remember that 1 HP is 746 W? So 746/200 = 3.73. What do you think? Is that over-unity, perhaps?

[IanB]

The picture had a Sun in it as an input energy source. It is not overunity. That's all I am arguing against. I think I made my point pretty well.

Debating this particular device is just a complete waste of time and energy. Not worth the threadspace.

And @IanB, my statement was intended as a general one and not specifically aimed at you. Your post just provided a handy hook to attach to. I'm putting the blame for this pointless thread squarely on Dave. I do not think he should have used the term overunity.

I'm sorry, but the picture and other statements clearly claim that a motor with 8 kW going into it can produce an output of 30 kW. That is clearly and plainly a claim of overunity.

So why should anyone not use the term overunity?

You are making no sense at all. You say, "it is not overunity". But plainly it is.

So what point are you trying to make here? If you are saying to ignore overunity claims and not give them the time of day, then fine, say that. But don't say, "but it's not overunity" when it is black and white, clear as day, right in front of you.

[jonovid]

Do you think you can get 1,440 kWh in a day from 4 solar panels?

Of course they could be wildly exaggerating the numbers and simply making false claims to sucker people.

But in case you doubt me, look at their functional block diagram (captured here for posterity):

I'm not interested in debating whether or not it is a pile of crap. All I am saying is that because they show a picture of the Sun as an energy input it is not fair to lambast it as overunity.

It is wrong, and that ought to be a sufficient reason to not label it overunity. Once you attempt to criticise something for something it does not claim to be, you diminish your own credibility.

Or if you prefer the BS analogy. A pile of shit stinks sufficiently for there to be no reason to claim it stinks more than a pile of shit.

whether or not it is a pile of crap ! that's it crap is the missing ingredient. poop from a toilet  methane gas .
so if want a shit load of power then you need a lot of shit or poop from the septic system.

[Cyberdragon]

Do you think you can get 1,440 kWh in a day from 4 solar panels?

Of course they could be wildly exaggerating the numbers and simply making false claims to sucker people.

But in case you doubt me, look at their functional block diagram (captured here for posterity):

I'm not interested in debating whether or not it is a pile of crap. All I am saying is that because they show a picture of the Sun as an energy input it is not fair to lambast it as overunity.

It is wrong, and that ought to be a sufficient reason to not label it overunity. Once you attempt to criticise something for something it does not claim to be, you diminish your own credibility.

Or if you prefer the BS analogy. A pile of shit stinks sufficiently for there to be no reason to claim it stinks more than a pile of shit.

whether or not it is a pile of crap ! that's it crap is the missing ingredient. poop from a toilet  methane gas .
so if want a shit load of power then you need a lot of shit or poop from the septic system.

like this?

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-somerset-35482839

[mikeselectricstuff]

Do you think you can get 1,440 kWh in a day from 4 solar panels?

Of course they could be wildly exaggerating the numbers and simply making false claims to sucker people.

But in case you doubt me, look at their functional block diagram (captured here for posterity):

I'm not interested in debating whether or not it is a pile of crap. All I am saying is that because they show a picture of the Sun as an energy input it is not fair to lambast it as overunity.

It is wrong, and that ought to be a sufficient reason to not label it overunity. Once you attempt to criticise something for something it does not claim to be, you diminish your own credibility.

Or if you prefer the BS analogy. A pile of shit stinks sufficiently for there to be no reason to claim it stinks more than a pile of shit.

There are so many alarm bells on that website it is clearly an overunity scam, or just a plan scam - we've seen it so many times before and it ticks many of the boxes. Why else would they try to refute that it breaks thermodynamics in their FAQ if it was genuine?
See earlier for indiciations that the solar panels are simply a means to get government financing.

[IanMacdonald]

If it's solar, it satisfies the credentials of the Green Religion.

Most adherents of which don't know the difference between a mW and a MWh anyway. So scammers can tell them anything they like. 

[brucehoult]

I'm sorry, but the picture and other statements clearly claim that a motor with 8 kW going into it can produce an output of 30 kW. That is clearly and plainly a claim of overunity.

Yes.

Given such a motor, it's you only need 26.7% efficiency in the rest of the rest of the round-trip turning rotational energy back into electricity to have yourself a nice little infinite energy generator. A bog standard generator (80+%?) will do but you could afford to go via a battery if you wanted.

Certainly no need for any blower and turbine bullshit, let alone solar cells!

[edgelog]

it has a typical power output of 525,600 kWh per year

Let's see. 525 600 kWh x 3.6 MJ/kWh = 1 892 160 MJ

Number of seconds in a year = 365.25 * 24 * 3600 = 31 557 600 s

Average power output = 1 892 160 MJ / 31 557 600 s = 0.059959 MW = 60 kW

That was an extremely round-about way of calculating it. Why not skip the Joules and the seconds and go:

525600 kWh / (365.25 * 24) h = 59.956 kW

[ruairi]

ECO-GEN Energy welcomes all visitors to its facility in Van Nuys, California and to our manufacturing plant in Paramount, CA to witness the fourth generation of renewable energy generation and will make available to all visitors full comprehensive documentation and other supporting materials that prove the capability of this revolutionary new power plant technology.

Anybody local ?
[/quote]

Oh my, I'm not that far away.  And RXPilot is right in the neighborhood…..Lunch on me if anyone wants to take the tour :-)

[beanflying]

Careful if you do go 

[james_s]

"The JouleBox® is a hybrid electricity generator developed by EcoGen Energy that produce clean energy 24/7/365"

Er .. shouldn't that be "24/365" or "24/7/52" or something?

(or "24/365.2425" or "24/7/52.1775")

Flash web site.

"24/7/365" is not incorrect, at least in the US that is a commonly used term meaning 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year.

Doesn't make the product any less BS but that particular statement is fine.

[brucehoult]

"The JouleBox® is a hybrid electricity generator developed by EcoGen Energy that produce clean energy 24/7/365"

Er .. shouldn't that be "24/365" or "24/7/52" or something?

(or "24/365.2425" or "24/7/52.1775")

Flash web site.

"24/7/365" is not incorrect, at least in the US that is a commonly used term meaning 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year.

Doesn't make the product any less BS but that particular statement is fine.

Being "common" doesn't make it fine!

[james_s]

It's acceptable American English. I'm not going to push to make the rest of the world add it to official dictionaries but I don't personally take issue with it. There are any number of colloquial terms and slang in almost any language which probably sound odd to non-native speakers.

[ebastler]

Designed by a creditable team of clean energy experts

Credible they are not, but you have to give them credit... or cash, if you prefer. 

[james_s]

While my instinct is to want to point out scams like this, on the other hand this sort of thing should be so obvious to anyone with any sense that if someone is dumb enough to fall for it they're probably going to fall for some other scam anyway if I manage to convince them this one is BS.

As the old saying goes, "A fool and his money are soon parted."

[lundmar]

This might be more interesting. If true it's gonna change the world: https://www.aftenposten.no/digital/Unknown-energy-source-with-enormous-potential-10899b.html

Bullshit?

I'm not so sure.

[IanB]

This might be more interesting. If true it's gonna change the world: https://www.aftenposten.no/digital/Unknown-energy-source-with-enormous-potential-10899b.html

Bullshit?

I'm not so sure.

Don't be silly. It's Rossi and LENR. Nothing interesting to see there.

[ebastler]

This might be more interesting. If true it's gonna change the world: https://www.aftenposten.no/digital/Unknown-energy-source-with-enormous-potential-10899b.html

I can't believe Andreas Rossi is still at this... 

[Neomys Sapiens]

What? I have achieved free energy once!
I tapped my neighbours pressurized air line with a long drill and a special adaptor through the wall and then I replaced all light fixtures with those from mines, which contain a little dynamo run by pressurized air!
And voila: free energy! But the whrrrrr-ing noise drove me nearly crazy and the neighbouring company went out of business. There I sat in the dark until I got a rental compressor.