I Smell Bullshit Overunity

[EEVblog]

Sounds like 

http://www.jouleboxpower.com/how-it-works/

[sibeen]

Jaysus you're a skeptic, Dave. This thing has with patented serial and parallel wiring FFS. It says so right on the box.

[sibeen]

Oh, and I missed the best bit, it has a typical power output of 525,600 kWh per year.

Figures...you just can't argue with them.

Dimensional accuracy, not so much

[beanflying]

"High pressure manufactured wind"

They eat onions and insert pipes ....... 

[jonovid]

will it levitate  will have Perpetual motion  or is it Perpetual BS 

[abraxa]

I like their FAQ:

You are violating the Laws of Thermodynamics and the Conservation of Energy.

No we do not violate either law but actually use those laws to our favor. We are not a closed system so the laws do not apply. According to the Conservation of Energy, “energy cannot be created or destroyed”. We reuse the energy that is usually destroyed in the form of heat loss. The manufacturing of electricity is not the same as energy. Additionally, because of rotational energy we use much less energy to manufacture the electricity than if the system was used to turn on and off.

I'd say that anyone smart enough to ask this question will also be smart enough to not believe their manufactured response.

[IanB]

it has a typical power output of 525,600 kWh per year

Let's see. 525 600 kWh x 3.6 MJ/kWh = 1 892 160 MJ

Number of seconds in a year = 365.25 * 24 * 3600 = 31 557 600 s

Average power output = 1 892 160 MJ / 31 557 600 s = 0.059959 MW = 60 kW

[brucehoult]

"The JouleBox® is a hybrid electricity generator developed by EcoGen Energy that produce clean energy 24/7/365"

Er .. shouldn't that be "24/365" or "24/7/52" or something?

(or "24/365.2425" or "24/7/52.1775")

Flash web site.

[IanB]

Average power output = 60 kW

At a typically quoted 10 m²/kW that means you would need about 600 m² of solar panels. That seems like quite a large area, more than an average roof I'd say.

Except you don't get 24 h of sunlight in a day 

Better multiply that by 4 or something...so 2400 m² ? 

[IanMacdonald]

[sibeen]

The further you dig down on their website the better it gets.

"No impact on weather patterns".

You really can't fault that.

[mikeselectricstuff]

"zero impact to the environment" - apart form manufacturing and transport, obvs...

"The JouleBox® is designed to run continuously and only turned off once per year for scheduled maintenance, regardless if there is any sunlight for the solar panels" 

"Our system solution for connecting the units together was designed by our associate that is a Senior Member, IEEE
    IEEE Power Systems Relaying Committee (PSRC), Main Committee
    IEEE PSRC Rotating Machinery Protection Subcommittee, Chair Emeritus
    IEEE PSRC Rotating Machinery Protection Subcommittee, Committee Member"
Free energy scam rulebook : Find someone with some credibility to have a vague association with it - tick.

"Requires only 4 solar panels." .. of unspecified size.
Free energy scam rulebook : Add some uncertainty that failure can be blamed on - not enough sun...

"Real-time satellite monitoring with GPS." 

"Have any questions?+1 (800) 832-1418" - go Dave - I double-dare you. Record it , obviously

From https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20150421005389/en/ECO-GEN-Live-Revolutionary-JouleBox%c2%ae-Energy-System

ECO-GEN Energy welcomes all visitors to its facility in Van Nuys, California and to our manufacturing plant in Paramount, CA to witness the fourth generation of renewable energy generation and will make available to all visitors full comprehensive documentation and other supporting materials that prove the capability of this revolutionary new power plant technology.

Anybody local ?

[EEVblog]

"Have any questions?+1 (800) 832-1418" - go Dave - I double-dare you. Record it , obviously

Illegal in this country.

[mikeselectricstuff]

"Have any questions?+1 (800) 832-1418" - go Dave - I double-dare you. Record it , obviously

Illegal in this country.

Get David2 to listen in & transcribe it

[drussell]

"Have any questions?+1 (800) 832-1418" - go Dave - I double-dare you. Record it , obviously

Illegal in this country.

Even if you tell them you'd like to record the conversation and they consent?

[StillTrying]

If I search on the Tel. number.
www.vivsource.com
www.viv.green
Chamil Hettiarachchi

It might be just a test/example site for the other they try to sell ?

[MadTux]

What, no Indiescamscam or Fraudstarter links!?!
How do they think they will get rich? So much effort for creating bullshit website and no links where potential fools (they are everywhere) can waste their money. They're doing it wrong

[mikeselectricstuff]

Unusual to be offering it as a larger-scale indusrtial thing, but maybe looking at an investor scam ?

[donotdespisethesnake]

Clearly BS, a classic over-unity/free energy type scam. A battery powered motor-generator supposedly recharges the battery and also produces "excess energy".

The explanation here : http://www.hybridelectricsystems.com/the-economic-case-for-renewable-ener1

This invention is possible because of its completely new electric motor design that uses several techniques to increase mechanical advantage without requiring more power to do so; that is, more horsepower on the shaft without more watts. These proprietary motors use < 200 watts per horsepower rather than the 746 watts used by conventional motors. (See below for more details.)

The Hybrid Electric Generator works because of the revolutionary design of its proprietary DC motors. These motors are actually powered by a series of permanent magnets around the motor armature and then manipulating the magnetic fields to maintain rotation.

So basically, they have a special "over-unity" motor using magnet woo. Very similar to the Orbo scam.

At best, the system provides a small solar installation with a battery backup, and a very inefficient DC inverter.

[Canis Dirus Leidy]

By the way. There is a DIY variant for hobbyists:

Was published 30-35 years ago in the "Izobretatel' i ratsionalizator" ("Inventor and rationalizer") magazine.

[suicidaleggroll]

The 3 – 40 HP motors use <200 watts per horsepower

A horsepower is a unit of power equal to 745.7 watts.  So their magical motors use less than 200 watts of input per 745 watts of output?  I need to get me some of those.

[StillTrying]

Solar Panels are used to qualify for Incentives. Solar Panels can be replaced with natural Wind Turbines if wind incentives are preferred. Neither are needed for exports that do not have government incentives.

s

It generates horse poower by using magic.

[drussell]

Solar Panels are used to qualify for Incentives. Solar Panels can be replaced with natural Wind Turbines if wind incentives are preferred. Neither are needed for exports that do not have government incentives.

Oh, my...  I'd never even considered that!

Just stick a couple of solar panels on top of whatever kind of hooey you're trying to peddle and apply for GREEN ENERGY grants and rebates!!

Of course! 

It generates horse poower by using magic.

Poower, indeed! 

[mikeselectricstuff]

Solar Panels are used to qualify for Incentives. Solar Panels can be replaced with natural Wind Turbines if wind incentives are preferred. Neither are needed for exports that do not have government incentives.

Solar power + bullshit  = subsidised bullshit...

[Cyberdragon]

*gets glassy eyed*

so...many...cheap motors...to EOL...

EMERGENCY...bullshit detected ...MUST DESTROY!

[Rick Law]

...
...

ECO-GEN Energy welcomes all visitors to its facility in Van Nuys, California and to our manufacturing plant in Paramount, CA to witness the fourth generation of renewable energy generation and will make available to all visitors full comprehensive documentation and other supporting materials that prove the capability of this revolutionary new power plant technology.

Anybody local ?

Being in Van Nuys would put them about 20 minutes drive from the one of the many wildfire currently savaging Southern California.  Anyone local would probably be too busy/too worry to go that close if they don't have to.

See the attached firemap (I circled Van Nuys) or the current google crisismap linked below.

_{http://google.org/crisismap/google.com/2017-ventura-county-wildfire?hl=en&llbox=34.6376%2C34.0604%2C-117.6123%2C-119.3701&t=TERRAIN&layers=5%2C16%2C17}


Side note:

I have been up-close to a wild fire.  I was less than a 100 feet from a two-lane road and just across the road was a wood - that whole wood was burning, I just see the rows lining the the road - but fire as far as eyes can see.  Burning cinders were jumping the road already.  It was a very scary thing.  My best wishes to anyone caught in this Southern California nightmare.

[StillTrying]

"The Switched Reluctance Motor controller pulls off the back EMF in the Negative Phase so there is not an interaction of the Magnetic Fields, therefore, we do not violate Lentz’s Law. By diverting the negative energy we reduce the resistance in Lentz’s Law. This negative energy can then be converted and stored in the battery brick. This increases the efficiencies of all motors by over 50%. When Lentz’s Law was written, electronics, circuit boards, resistors, capacitors and high speed switching did not exist."

http://revolution-green.com/netzero-power-generators-or-deja-vu
 

[Kire Pûdsje]

"Real-time satellite monitoring with GPS." 

Probably not a lie, if you take it literally, it will probably monitor GPS satellites.
Just like any other GPS module also performs real time satellite monitoring.

[IanMacdonald]

Looked at quite a few of these 'over unity' ideas, and it strikes me that:

All claim to give more energy out than drive the thing... BUT if that's the case why don't they do a closed loop demo, with the output PROVIDING the input? If they could do that it would be a 'Wright Brothers Moment' - a clear and incontrovertible proof that it can be done. 

Instead, they invariably compare the readings of input and output DMMs and calculate wattage from that. Here lurk two massive gotchas -that power is not necessarily equal to VxI in AC circuits, and that under pulsed conditions many cheap DMMs will totally misread anyway. I suspect it is the experimenters' lack of understanding of this that leads to false conclusions. 

Rossi demonstrated his E-Cat much like that, powering from mains and dumping the steam it produced down the drain after measuring the water volume and claiming that the amount boiled off could not be accounted for by the energy input. Why for heaven's sake did he not buy a small steam engine and generator and PRODUCE the input power from the steam? That would be the gold standard proof that it works. OK, steam engines are not all that efficient so there might be issues with losses being greater than gains, but I'm surprised he didn't at least try to create a closed loop. 

The Bedini motor/generator is an interesting one - he claims to be able to charge one SLA battery from another through the machine, then reverse the process leaving both SLAs in a better state of charge than before. The problem I see with this is that he was (I believe) using old SLAs which were probably sulphated, and putting pulsed current through a sulphated battery will tend to rejuvenate it by breaking the (insulating) sulphate off the plates.

Thus, the 'excess energy' in this case may simply arise from the battery having been charged before it became sulphated, and the removal of the sulphate unlocking this stored energy. Just my theory but it would explain his results.

[IanB]

If they say in the first line "Solar Panels (not shown) and DC Generators D constantly charge the batteries." how does one arrive at an overunity conclusion?

It seems a silly contraption but that's not overunity. The hallmark of overunity is to conceal the input energy source. Unless you want to be deceived by having it hidden in plain sight.

How is it overunity?

Well, firstly from their web site:

• Measures 8 ft x 5.5 ft x 7 ft
• Weighs approximately 5,000 lb
• Requires only 4 solar panels
• Typical power output 525,600 kWh/year (= 60 kW 24/7)

Do you think you can get 1,440 kWh in a day from 4 solar panels?

Of course they could be wildly exaggerating the numbers and simply making false claims to sucker people.

But in case you doubt me, look at their functional block diagram (captured here for posterity):

[beanflying]

I'm not interested in debating whether or not it is a pile of crap. All I am saying is that because they show a picture of the Sun as an energy input it is not fair to lambast it as overunity.

It is wrong, and that ought to be a sufficient reason to not label it overunity. Once you attempt to criticise something for something it does not claim to be, you diminish your own credibility.

Or if you prefer the BS analogy. A pile of shit stinks sufficiently for there to be no reason to claim it stinks more than a pile of shit.

At that scale all I see is a number of 10-30% losses each time they swap power from one form to another. Not enough coming in for a start means

[IanB]

Once you attempt to criticise something for something it does not claim to be, you diminish your own credibility.

Did you even look at the picture I posted? The 40 HP motors (30 kW) that consume less than 8 kW of electrical power?

But in case that is not convincing enough, let me quote their own words:

The JouleBox® is designed to run continuously and only turned off once per year for scheduled maintenance, regardless if there is any sunlight for the solar panels.

The 3 – 40 HP motors use <200 watts per horsepower or <24 kW total for all 3.

I trust you remember that 1 HP is 746 W? So 746/200 = 3.73. What do you think? Is that over-unity, perhaps?

[IanB]

The picture had a Sun in it as an input energy source. It is not overunity. That's all I am arguing against. I think I made my point pretty well.

Debating this particular device is just a complete waste of time and energy. Not worth the threadspace.

And @IanB, my statement was intended as a general one and not specifically aimed at you. Your post just provided a handy hook to attach to. I'm putting the blame for this pointless thread squarely on Dave. I do not think he should have used the term overunity.

I'm sorry, but the picture and other statements clearly claim that a motor with 8 kW going into it can produce an output of 30 kW. That is clearly and plainly a claim of overunity.

So why should anyone not use the term overunity?

You are making no sense at all. You say, "it is not overunity". But plainly it is.

So what point are you trying to make here? If you are saying to ignore overunity claims and not give them the time of day, then fine, say that. But don't say, "but it's not overunity" when it is black and white, clear as day, right in front of you.

[jonovid]

Do you think you can get 1,440 kWh in a day from 4 solar panels?

Of course they could be wildly exaggerating the numbers and simply making false claims to sucker people.

But in case you doubt me, look at their functional block diagram (captured here for posterity):

I'm not interested in debating whether or not it is a pile of crap. All I am saying is that because they show a picture of the Sun as an energy input it is not fair to lambast it as overunity.

It is wrong, and that ought to be a sufficient reason to not label it overunity. Once you attempt to criticise something for something it does not claim to be, you diminish your own credibility.

Or if you prefer the BS analogy. A pile of shit stinks sufficiently for there to be no reason to claim it stinks more than a pile of shit.

whether or not it is a pile of crap ! that's it crap is the missing ingredient. poop from a toilet  methane gas .
so if want a shit load of power then you need a lot of shit or poop from the septic system.

[Cyberdragon]

Do you think you can get 1,440 kWh in a day from 4 solar panels?

Of course they could be wildly exaggerating the numbers and simply making false claims to sucker people.

But in case you doubt me, look at their functional block diagram (captured here for posterity):

I'm not interested in debating whether or not it is a pile of crap. All I am saying is that because they show a picture of the Sun as an energy input it is not fair to lambast it as overunity.

It is wrong, and that ought to be a sufficient reason to not label it overunity. Once you attempt to criticise something for something it does not claim to be, you diminish your own credibility.

Or if you prefer the BS analogy. A pile of shit stinks sufficiently for there to be no reason to claim it stinks more than a pile of shit.

whether or not it is a pile of crap ! that's it crap is the missing ingredient. poop from a toilet  methane gas .
so if want a shit load of power then you need a lot of shit or poop from the septic system.

like this?

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-somerset-35482839

[mikeselectricstuff]

Do you think you can get 1,440 kWh in a day from 4 solar panels?

Of course they could be wildly exaggerating the numbers and simply making false claims to sucker people.

But in case you doubt me, look at their functional block diagram (captured here for posterity):

I'm not interested in debating whether or not it is a pile of crap. All I am saying is that because they show a picture of the Sun as an energy input it is not fair to lambast it as overunity.

It is wrong, and that ought to be a sufficient reason to not label it overunity. Once you attempt to criticise something for something it does not claim to be, you diminish your own credibility.

Or if you prefer the BS analogy. A pile of shit stinks sufficiently for there to be no reason to claim it stinks more than a pile of shit.

There are so many alarm bells on that website it is clearly an overunity scam, or just a plan scam - we've seen it so many times before and it ticks many of the boxes. Why else would they try to refute that it breaks thermodynamics in their FAQ if it was genuine?
See earlier for indiciations that the solar panels are simply a means to get government financing.

[IanMacdonald]

If it's solar, it satisfies the credentials of the Green Religion.

Most adherents of which don't know the difference between a mW and a MWh anyway. So scammers can tell them anything they like. 

[brucehoult]

I'm sorry, but the picture and other statements clearly claim that a motor with 8 kW going into it can produce an output of 30 kW. That is clearly and plainly a claim of overunity.

Yes.

Given such a motor, it's you only need 26.7% efficiency in the rest of the rest of the round-trip turning rotational energy back into electricity to have yourself a nice little infinite energy generator. A bog standard generator (80+%?) will do but you could afford to go via a battery if you wanted.

Certainly no need for any blower and turbine bullshit, let alone solar cells!

[edgelog]

it has a typical power output of 525,600 kWh per year

Let's see. 525 600 kWh x 3.6 MJ/kWh = 1 892 160 MJ

Number of seconds in a year = 365.25 * 24 * 3600 = 31 557 600 s

Average power output = 1 892 160 MJ / 31 557 600 s = 0.059959 MW = 60 kW

That was an extremely round-about way of calculating it. Why not skip the Joules and the seconds and go:

525600 kWh / (365.25 * 24) h = 59.956 kW

[ruairi]

ECO-GEN Energy welcomes all visitors to its facility in Van Nuys, California and to our manufacturing plant in Paramount, CA to witness the fourth generation of renewable energy generation and will make available to all visitors full comprehensive documentation and other supporting materials that prove the capability of this revolutionary new power plant technology.

Anybody local ?
[/quote]

Oh my, I'm not that far away.  And RXPilot is right in the neighborhood…..Lunch on me if anyone wants to take the tour :-)

[beanflying]

Careful if you do go 

[james_s]

"The JouleBox® is a hybrid electricity generator developed by EcoGen Energy that produce clean energy 24/7/365"

Er .. shouldn't that be "24/365" or "24/7/52" or something?

(or "24/365.2425" or "24/7/52.1775")

Flash web site.

"24/7/365" is not incorrect, at least in the US that is a commonly used term meaning 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year.

Doesn't make the product any less BS but that particular statement is fine.

[brucehoult]

"The JouleBox® is a hybrid electricity generator developed by EcoGen Energy that produce clean energy 24/7/365"

Er .. shouldn't that be "24/365" or "24/7/52" or something?

(or "24/365.2425" or "24/7/52.1775")

Flash web site.

"24/7/365" is not incorrect, at least in the US that is a commonly used term meaning 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year.

Doesn't make the product any less BS but that particular statement is fine.

Being "common" doesn't make it fine!

[james_s]

It's acceptable American English. I'm not going to push to make the rest of the world add it to official dictionaries but I don't personally take issue with it. There are any number of colloquial terms and slang in almost any language which probably sound odd to non-native speakers.

[ebastler]

Designed by a creditable team of clean energy experts

Credible they are not, but you have to give them credit... or cash, if you prefer. 

[james_s]

While my instinct is to want to point out scams like this, on the other hand this sort of thing should be so obvious to anyone with any sense that if someone is dumb enough to fall for it they're probably going to fall for some other scam anyway if I manage to convince them this one is BS.

As the old saying goes, "A fool and his money are soon parted."

[lundmar]

This might be more interesting. If true it's gonna change the world: https://www.aftenposten.no/digital/Unknown-energy-source-with-enormous-potential-10899b.html

Bullshit?

I'm not so sure.

[IanB]

This might be more interesting. If true it's gonna change the world: https://www.aftenposten.no/digital/Unknown-energy-source-with-enormous-potential-10899b.html

Bullshit?

I'm not so sure.

Don't be silly. It's Rossi and LENR. Nothing interesting to see there.

[ebastler]

This might be more interesting. If true it's gonna change the world: https://www.aftenposten.no/digital/Unknown-energy-source-with-enormous-potential-10899b.html

I can't believe Andreas Rossi is still at this... 

[Neomys Sapiens]

What? I have achieved free energy once!
I tapped my neighbours pressurized air line with a long drill and a special adaptor through the wall and then I replaced all light fixtures with those from mines, which contain a little dynamo run by pressurized air!
And voila: free energy! But the whrrrrr-ing noise drove me nearly crazy and the neighbouring company went out of business. There I sat in the dark until I got a rental compressor.

[Brumby]

"The JouleBox® is a hybrid electricity generator developed by EcoGen Energy that produce clean energy 24/7/365"

Er .. shouldn't that be "24/365" or "24/7/52" or something?

(or "24/365.2425" or "24/7/52.1775")

Flash web site.

"24/7/365" is not incorrect, at least in the US that is a commonly used term meaning 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year.

Doesn't make the product any less BS but that particular statement is fine.

Being "common" doesn't make it fine!

It's acceptable American English. I'm not going to push to make the rest of the world add it to official dictionaries but I don't personally take issue with it. There are any number of colloquial terms and slang in almost any language which probably sound odd to non-native speakers.

It is clearly understood in Australia as well.  Those who want to make an "issue" out of it are few and far between - and they pretty much get ignored.

The meaning is clear.  The pedantry is pointless.

[Cyberdragon]

What? I have achieved free energy once!
I tapped my neighbours pressurized air line with a long drill and a special adaptor through the wall and then I replaced all light fixtures with those from mines, which contain a little dynamo run by pressurized air!
And voila: free energy! But the whrrrrr-ing noise drove me nearly crazy and the neighbouring company went out of business. There I sat in the dark until I got a rental compressor.

What? There's such a thing as air powered lamps? Now you make me want to get some to play around with.

[mikeselectricstuff]

What? I have achieved free energy once!
I tapped my neighbours pressurized air line with a long drill and a special adaptor through the wall and then I replaced all light fixtures with those from mines, which contain a little dynamo run by pressurized air!
And voila: free energy! But the whrrrrr-ing noise drove me nearly crazy and the neighbouring company went out of business. There I sat in the dark until I got a rental compressor.

What? There's such a thing as air powered lamps? Now you make me want to get some to play around with.

AvE... Calling AvE....

https://www.wolfsafety.com/temporary-lighting/airlamps/turbolite

Surprisingly still using incandescent lamps, but probably as re-approvals are costly

[Halcyon]

How is it that the US Government haven't shut this crap down already? In Australia, it would be called "misleading" at best and the ACCC and Fair Trading would have a field day.

[james_s]

https://www.wolfsafety.com/temporary-lighting/airlamps/turbolite

Surprisingly still using incandescent lamps, but probably as re-approvals are costly

That is surprising, LED would lend itself well to this application, it's safer in that there is no white hot filament if the lamp does get broken, and there is much less maintenance.

Also surprising is the fact that they manage to get 36lm/W out of an incandescent source by overrunning it to the point that it lasts only 200 hours. I wouldn't have expected the efficiency to rise that high.

[Neomys Sapiens]

Also surprising is the fact that they manage to get 36lm/W out of an incandescent source by overrunning it to the point that it lasts only 200 hours. I wouldn't have expected the efficiency to rise that high.

In this detail, those seem to differ from the ones used in mines. They were rather dim.

[Cyberdragon]

Also surprising is the fact that they manage to get 36lm/W out of an incandescent source by overrunning it to the point that it lasts only 200 hours. I wouldn't have expected the efficiency to rise that high.

In this detail, those seem to differ from the ones used in mines. They were rather dim.

There seems to be three models from varying companies. One looks like a traditional cage lamp, one is a halide or mercury lamp that looks kind of like a safety strobe, and the third is a spot lamp.

It seems Aussie50 did a video on them back in 2010.

[IanMacdonald]

Air powered lamps are what the Greenies get their subsidies for, are they not? 

[Cyberdragon]

No, they're so you don't have to run wiring in a place full of explosive gasses where the tiniest spark could kill everyone. It is odd that they're still incandescent/gas-arc, but it maybe because LEDs could be damaged in those environements?

[beanflying]

Air powered lamps are what the Greenies get their subsidies for, are they not? 

All part of the Power Mix IMO. Where I grew up most of the States Power was produced by Brown Coal, the damage done to the inhabitants let alone the environment is terrible. That Graphic you showed smacks of Oil and Coal industry Propaganda and BS!

We now in this state run a Coal/Gas/Hydro/Wind mix which works fairly well with Gas and Hydro providing the Peak Response generation. Until the storage issue is sorted most alternate sources of energy will be only part of the solution.

20km from me is this http://bps.energy/projects

[Neomys Sapiens]

The one's that I really saw in the 70's were probably installed in the 50's of the last century! So, of course incandescent.

[mikeselectricstuff]

How is it that the US Government haven't shut this crap down already?

They're too busy banning words like "science based"
https://boingboing.net/2017/12/16/party-over-pathogens.html

[lundmar]

Air powered lamps are what the Greenies get their subsidies for, are they not? 

All part of the Power Mix IMO. Where I grew up most of the States Power was produced by Brown Coal, the damage done to the inhabitants let alone the environment is terrible. That Graphic you showed smacks of Oil and Coal industry Propaganda and BS!

We now in this state run a Coal/Gas/Hydro/Wind mix which works fairly well with Gas and Hydro providing the Peak Response generation. Until the storage issue is sorted most alternate sources of energy will be only part of the solution.

20km from me is this http://bps.energy/projects

The cartoon is well... a cartoon. It is also dead wrong.

I wish the world would invest and focus more on renewable energy. In Denmark we are building 9 MW wind turbines. In 2015, 43% of our energy production came from wind energy and on good days we cover 100%. This proves it is simply a matter of innovation and political will to do good for the future environment.

Many countries could learn from our example and follow suit.

[mc172]

AvE... Calling AvE....

https://www.wolfsafety.com/temporary-lighting/airlamps/turbolite

Surprisingly still using incandescent lamps, but probably as re-approvals are costly

What! How the hell is that safe?!

I had a brief go at designing an electric screwdriver for use in explosive environments (namely for use around and on live warheads) before "they" told me that they didn't like the chance of the enamel on the windings of a brushless DC motor flexing and flaking off their enamel. How the hell did they let glowing-hot metallic filaments into the mix? Mad.

I will say though that not all explosive environments are equal. There are classifications. I don't enjoy being in any of them, regardless of classification.

The good news is that it's not rated for Gas Zone 0, and bloody rightly so.

[ludzinc]

We also need grid storage tech developed before renewables become a 100% solution for all.

But that takes time and money. Politicians don’t see votes in that, so they just whack up more turbines.

Btw - I’m from South Australia, we’re we now have the biggest Tesla battery and 500MW of Diesel generator to prop up our poorly managed grid....

[Cyberdragon]

AvE... Calling AvE....

https://www.wolfsafety.com/temporary-lighting/airlamps/turbolite

Surprisingly still using incandescent lamps, but probably as re-approvals are costly

What! How the hell is that safe?!

I had a brief go at designing an electric screwdriver for use in explosive environments (namely for use around and on live warheads) before "they" told me that they didn't like the chance of the enamel on the windings of a brushless DC motor flexing and flaking off their enamel. How the hell did they let glowing-hot metallic filaments into the mix? Mad.

I will say though that not all explosive environments are equal. There are classifications. I don't enjoy being in any of them, regardless of classification.

The good news is that it's not rated for Gas Zone 0, and bloody rightly so.

They're completely sealed, your screwdriver was probably not. Remember, the first safety lamps used an enclosed flame, and from then until now the only electric light was incandescant or gas discharge. They even had sealed arc lamps in the late 19th and early 20th centuries (I don't know if they were safety rated though). The whole point is to not damage safety equipment, IE break the seal, or you void any safety ratings.

[Neomys Sapiens]

They are also safe by being pressurized from the inside by the operating air, so that the potentially combustible atmosphere can not reach the potential source of ignition.

[james_s]

I suspect they're also designed such that the air feeding the turbine comes from the inside of the lamp housing so if the glass were to break the pressure would be dumped and stop the turbine from spinning. Having never seen one up close I can't say for sure, but that's how I would design one.

[mikeselectricstuff]

What! How the hell is that safe?!

It's an explosion-proof enclosure.
Sealed from the environment, and sufficiently strong, and with long paths through the seams, so that if it fills with gas, and that gas ignites, the flame won't get out. Hence the thick glass dome and protective cage round it.
Standard practice for making safe devices where it isn't practical  to use intrinsically safe design.
The coupling between the turbine and generator could either be magnetic, so completely sealed, or via a long, thin flame path that would cool any flame-front to prevent ignition.
Nowadays you could probably make an intrinsically safe LED based one to avoid the need for heavy castings, or have the generator and LED completely encapsulated, though battery-powered LED lamps, or low-voltage ones  may be more practical nowadays.

[TheDane]

There's a lot going on in regards to 'magnetic motors', so don't go van nuts 


Here's an article in Danish in regards to magnetic vortices and optimizing.
https://ing.dk/artikel/nanomagnetisme-skal-forbedre-energilagring-svinghjul-208344

Google does a somewhat job of translating:
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=da&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=da&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Fing.dk%2Fartikel%2Fnanomagnetisme-skal-forbedre-energilagring-svinghjul-208344&edit-text=

[StillTrying]

There's a lot going on in regards to 'magnetic motors', so don't go van nuts 
..
Google does a somewhat job of translating:
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=da&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=da&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Fing.dk%2Fartikel%2Fnanomagnetisme-skal-forbedre-energilagring-svinghjul-208344&edit-text=

Sounds mostly cobblers to me.  https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/cobblers

[TheDane]

I googled 'cobblers' - it seems to be something you eat (mostly).

Danish isn't an easy language to comprehend, speak and talk. Physics and science isn't either.

Try read up on the Stoner criterion, it is electron-electron repulsion, and the magnetic properties of the materials of the system. It is (some of the causes?) what is causing losses in motors/spin wheels over time, as the varying electron magnetic spin properties work against each other = motion/heat, losses. 

The article on ing.dk talks about nano-sized magnets, and the way to order the magnets - in order to minimize losses. Some large companies are working on it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoner_criterion

On a different note - it seems the system linked to here does not have an usable output, only input - as I have seen on the simplified schematics page.

And, working light, solar cells aren't over unity and perpetual motion machines. All they do is having their electrons knocked out of orbit when hit by a photon. Oh, and they do break when hit by meteors and other rocks 
Wind power, oh - don't get me started on Tvind.

[Sovereign Wealth]

Ok seriously Dave having reviewed your generally value added work,  I do appreciate the majority of your contributions. My problem is not with you but with Academia that has poisoned your mind. That said, you need to retract your statements around Over Unity and read Moray, Whittaker, Bearden, Courcier just for a start. Honestly you really need to look into this because you are making an ass of yourself and filling these trusting folks heads with BS. 

I'll be back and sincerely hope we can move forward on the same page as I've provided a preponderance of empirical evidence verified by multiple laboratories.   

https://docs.google.com/document/d/18Wqwy8R5oUckHP60l9_JwaEJozga60CCItWYlmMOcTo/edit?usp=sharing 
(YES THIS IS A DIFFERENT DOCUMENT THAN EARLIER SHARED)

DO THE ACTUAL RESEARCH YOURSELF QUESTION AUTHORITY 

[beanflying]

You sir are a TOOL 

[daqq]

Ok seriously Dave having reviewed your generally value added work,  I do appreciate the majority of your contributions. My problem is not with you but with Academia that has poisoned your mind. That said, you need to retract your statements around Over Unity and read Moray, Whittaker, Bearden, Courcier just for a start. Honestly you really need to look into this because you are making an ass of yourself and filling these trusting folks heads with BS. 

I'll be back and sincerely hope we can move forward on the same page as I've provided a preponderance of empirical evidence verified by multiple laboratories.   

https://docs.google.com/document/d/18Wqwy8R5oUckHP60l9_JwaEJozga60CCItWYlmMOcTo/edit?usp=sharing 
(YES THIS IS A DIFFERENT DOCUMENT THAN EARLIER SHARED)

DO THE ACTUAL RESEARCH YOURSELF QUESTION AUTHORITY 

The abundance of smileys, the general language of your post and linked document make you sound extremely reasonable and legit.

I'm pretty sure that if you have a non-bullshit working device and send it to Dave he will review it. It's very easy to convince and engineer that has the appropriate measurement equipment of a truth.

[Cyberdragon]

Wow...does that guy flat Earth much?...as they clearly don't understand how anything works.

Quote from that link:

    How does Perpetuating Energy Flows Work?
Historically we see it going back to ancient times, in the air via rotating aerodynamically designed props or propellers in a windmill for grain, another more efficient example being the water wheel, the river’s flow is more consistent than the wind blowing. So we find Perpetual energy, over unity & negative entropy is created by tapping into existing systems of / that provide work, for decades and only days to facilitate.   

Takes things completely normal and calls them "perpetual energy". NO, it's not! You know...wind works on this thing called HEAT from THE SUN, and water wheels work on this thing called GRAVITY! What put the water there in the first place? Well heat from the sun caused it to evaporate into these things called clouds and it rained!

Now go away! Or I shall taunt you a second time!

[Simon]

Ok seriously Dave having reviewed your generally value added work,  I do appreciate the majority of your contributions. My problem is not with you but with Academia that has poisoned your mind. That said, you need to retract your statements around Over Unity and read Moray, Whittaker, Bearden, Courcier just for a start. Honestly you really need to look into this because you are making an ass of yourself and filling these trusting folks heads with BS. 

I'll be back and sincerely hope we can move forward on the same page as I've provided a preponderance of empirical evidence verified by multiple laboratories.   

https://docs.google.com/document/d/18Wqwy8R5oUckHP60l9_JwaEJozga60CCItWYlmMOcTo/edit?usp=sharing 
(YES THIS IS A DIFFERENT DOCUMENT THAN EARLIER SHARED)

DO THE ACTUAL RESEARCH YOURSELF QUESTION AUTHORITY 

You may leave now and take your crap with you and sort of keep your dignity, or you can stay and troll for about another post or two and be banned for being a troll, or you can hang around and learn about the real world and the laws that govern it, up to you mate. Banning you takes seconds, no skin of our nose.

[Sovereign Wealth]

It Really is hilarious, I mean I provide 20 dam patents and dozens of links directly to NASA Technical Representative Servers and you all just sit here with shit on your face like what smells... I am not going anywhere! I am the visionary facilitating an international open source collaboration around the best design. Dumb ass look at my profiles... Read NASA's reports. The longer you wait the worse it will be.

[Sovereign Wealth]

 Lt Col Thomas Bearden https://youtu.be/eNU3MLqyzPk

Seriously, I have no problem sticking this out I've been saying this same thing since I was 17 and hearing the same, I don't think for myself... I think the way I was told and your dumb if you don't think like the establishment tells you.

[Simon]

OK he's banned!

[james_s]

Posts like that remind me of the random emails I used to get from a former friend. Later I found out he had gotten into crystal meth, never tried the stuff myself but apparently it makes people feel super smart.

[Simon]

Yes we had one of those posting video's once about his visions, he too was banned after lots of concern for his well being

[technix]

Was there a multi-input UPS from APC or someone? Tesla too called Powerwall? Maybe BYD also have one? I think one of those would work a lot better than this crap.

[Simon]

Just started watching the video above, sheesh what the fuck? all those terms in the military must have turned his head.

[joecamp0512]

Has anyone actually seen the JouleBox demoed?  I did get the chance a couple weeks ago to visit Eco-Gen's Van Nuys headquarters and I (along with several others in the room) were very impressed.  Open to your thoughts on why you feel this new technology will not work...

[james_s]

I don't know what it is, but if it claims to put out more energy than it puts in then it will not work, period.

On the other hand, send me a working free energy device and once I have verified that it is in fact producing more energy than is being put in, I will happily change my mind and throw everything I know about physics and thermodynamics out the window. You must loan me a device though that I can evaluate personally under controlled conditions, videos and demos are far too easily faked. I'm quite confident that Dave would be more than happy to do the same.

[ebastler]

Has anyone actually seen the JouleBox demoed?  I did get the chance a couple weeks ago to visit Eco-Gen's Van Nuys headquarters and I (along with several others in the room) were very impressed.  Open to your thoughts on why you feel this new technology will not work...

Yeah, sure. New first-time poster, who just happens to be sooo impressed with the JouleBox... Reported to the mods -- shills and sock-puppets are not welcome here.

[VK5RC]

I recall (hopefully correctly-that was a long time ago!) a 1st yr physics project to look at a proposed 'over sum' experiment.
The system starts with water on a really tall hill, enough potential energy to electrolyse the water into hydrogen and oxygen, which are placed in balloons, the mixture I believe is lighter than air, it drags uphill, generating some electricity on the way, then at the top, you burn it back to water again. Gaining even more energy!
If I recall correctly, the 'gain' is from the atmospheric heat the balloon picks up as it ascends.

[EEVblog]

Has anyone actually seen the JouleBox demoed?  I did get the chance a couple weeks ago to visit Eco-Gen's Van Nuys headquarters and I (along with several others in the room) were very impressed.  Open to your thoughts on why you feel this new technology will not work...

Oh, it "works" and probably does something. That something is practically guaranteed to not be useful.

[Red Squirrel]

Seems to me it's basically just some kind of energy converter.  I don't see how this can replace solar panels or wind turbines or be more efficient. But the business investor type people are probably going to buy into it because it's hip and cool and "new". 

[Halcyon]

Ahh another episode of bullshit busters! Love it. Keep 'em coming Dave!

It seems like an effective way to filter out the morons in this forum too. They can't help themselves. 

Has anyone actually seen the JouleBox demoed?  I did get the chance a couple weeks ago to visit Eco-Gen's Van Nuys headquarters and I (along with several others in the room) were very impressed.  Open to your thoughts on why you feel this new technology will not work...

Because science and physics.

You might have been "impressed", but that doesn't mean the product defies the laws of nature. I also suspect that you're the previously banned user from earlier. Two brainwashed nut jobs on the same EEVblog forum topic in a short amount of time? Something doesn't feel right.

[Cyberdragon]

Sure it'll work...

If you're Michael Carbanaro and can fake it...

[james_s]

So if it works, then loan one out to somebody credible to independently test it, make them sign an NDA to not disclose how it works internally if that is important but anything less than that is worthless. Put up or shut up. This is such a laughably easy thing to do that it's a perfect way to determine with certainty that something is a scam even ignoring one's understanding of the laws of nature.

[Cyberdragon]

So if it works, then loan one out to somebody credible to independently test it, make them sign an NDA to not disclose how it works internally if that is important but anything less than that is worthless. Put up or shut up. This is such a laughably easy thing to do that it's a perfect way to determine with certainty that something is a scam even ignoring one's understanding of the laws of nature.

You wouldn't need the whole thing. Just one of those voodoo motors that supposedly turns 200W into 745W.

[EEVblog]

So if it works, then loan one out to somebody credible to independently test it, make them sign an NDA to not disclose how it works internally if that is important but anything less than that is worthless. Put up or shut up. This is such a laughably easy thing to do that it's a perfect way to determine with certainty that something is a scam even ignoring one's understanding of the laws of nature.

I had a guy offer me $30k and a trip to Canada to verify his over-unity anti-gravity invention. All under NDA of course.
No thanks, I'm not dumb enough to waste my time.

[Halcyon]

Just started watching the video above, sheesh what the fuck? all those terms in the military must have turned his head.

It looks like Lt. Col. Bearden (retired) is suffering some PTSD perhaps? Something is certainly not right in his thinking. He has clearly left his scientific principles behind.

It also appears he has a "PhD" purchased from a diploma mill.

[Simon]

You mean he has a modern qualification

[james_s]

I had a guy offer me $30k and a trip to Canada to verify his over-unity anti-gravity invention. All under NDA of course.
No thanks, I'm not dumb enough to waste my time.

If you got the $30k in advance it seems it would be hard for it to be a waste of time. Give me $30k and a plane ticket somewhere and I don't care what the primary task is when I get there, it sounds like a very well paid vacation.

Now if you are expected to foot the expenses and then be reimbursed afterward then forget it.

[BrianHG]

I built an energy UNDERunity project.  It's an exercise bike with a generator as a programmable brake.  At the pedals, you put in 400 watts of torque and at the generator's output, you get 300 watts of surplus power.  It's excellent free power.  Pedal all out for a 2-3 minutes and you made enough power to charge an empty cell phone, or, power a 5 watt led lamp for 2-3 hours.  Comfortably pedal at 60-80 watts for an hour and you made enough power to light that lamp for over 10 hours.

It's FREE power and I invite anybody to try the hardware and measure the output.

However, I will not pay for the food and water you eat and drink, nor count all the power and fuel which went into producing, transporting and cooking that food so you have the energy to do the 2-3 minutes of pedaling.... 

[Simon]

I'd do one if I could find an easy way. Despite having a bicycle there are few places I dare ride with driving being risky round here. So something in the house that I can plug into the grid would be nice, if anything it would mean I could measure my output properly.

[BrianHG]

I'd do one if I could find an easy way. Despite having a bicycle there are few places I dare ride with driving being risky round here. So something in the house that I can plug into the grid would be nice, if anything it would mean I could measure my output properly.

I hear you about the safety when you want a serious ride.
Here is what you need for the home made solution, look at the photos below:
1 old fashioned up-write spinner type bike, with seat that adjusts 2 ways, vertically and horizontally.
1 Micro-V groove belt used in exercise equipment, 8-10 v grooves.  Get a long enough belt to sit on the wheel.
1 Used treadmill motor, around 120vdc, with flywheel and Micro-V groove pulley.
Not in photos-
TI switching regulator which goes from 100v to 9v in DC, 6v out.
Either Arduino of PIC board, with 2 channel 12 bit adc.
1 optical sensor on treadmill motor for true RPM feedback.
2 nice big 100v caps.
1 strong mosfet and huge 200-300 watt resistor 2-4 ohm.

Use the MCU board connected to a PC to log voltage and current for power consumption and control motor resistive level VS rpm.
The MCU PWMs the mosfet to control resistive braking setting.

I wont directly recommend feeding power back to the grid for safety reasons, but, there are boxes which can do this and your on your own if you are going to tie your project to the mains.

This design is fairly silent as the treadmill motor is designed to be non-cogging and the Mivro-V groove belt has no bumps or teeth in it.
The belt wont slip on the bike's polished flat steel wheel unless you get sweat on it.  You just need to add a protective cover so your sweat wont come into contact with the bike's wheel.

This design, after friction and DC motor efficiency as a generator is only around 50-60% efficient.  If you want better, the treadmill motor needs to be changed to a 3 phase neodymium permanent magnet low RPM generator.

[Simon]

solar GTI's are in abundance. I have a surplus sunnyboy that will work as low as 125V.

[BrianHG]

With a 120v motor, you will be typically be making 30-50vdc.  Unless you are pedaling at just over 100rpm.
I guess a 240v dc treadmill motor will double your output voltage.  You are left with a narrow pedaling range unless you regulate the output voltage.

Hare was my 2010 setup before I had any electronics, just 2 lamp switches as a test.  It worked so well and unbeliveably smooth that I advanced the project.

[Gyro]

If there's any thread that needs to be free to live, breath and frolic in the sunshine of the Dodgy Technology section, then it must surely be this one. 

[Simon]

I guess an alternator and a cheapo GTI from china

[BrianHG]

Here is a sample of the power logs after I made the controller board, PIC MCU based with optocoupled isolated FTDI RS232 link to a PC which ran a scrolling power and rpm chart & dashboard on the screen as I exercised with a programmed auto gear shift for an interval workout...

Code: [Select]

Log file         Date   Time started   Workout Duration    Surplus power generated in watts.
logs\BikeBrake_05-16-2011_11h31m29s.raw   1:10:10.3     94.37
logs\BikeBrake_05-19-2011_08h34m19s.raw   1:10:08.3     92.38
logs\BikeBrake_06-19-2011_15h28m41s.raw   1:10:13.9     99.89
logs\BikeBrake_06-20-2011_12h35m14s.raw   1:10:10.2     91.49
logs\BikeBrake_06-21-2011_11h06m35s.raw   1:12:44.0     99.88
logs\BikeBrake_06-22-2011_12h24m06s.raw   1:10:06.0     101.35
logs\BikeBrake_06-23-2011_10h46m00s.raw   1:10:11.3     100.46
logs\BikeBrake_06-30-2011_16h42m45s.raw   1:10:08.0     100.60
logs\BikeBrake_07-02-2011_13h44m35s.raw   1:10:13.6     97.37
logs\BikeBrake_07-04-2011_10h47m49s.raw   1:10:09.0     102.89
logs\BikeBrake_07-05-2011_11h44m08s.raw   1:10:10.0     104.29
logs\BikeBrake_07-10-2011_12h56m26s.raw   1:10:08.6     101.98
logs\BikeBrake_07-11-2011_16h36m57s.raw   1:10:12.9     97.06
logs\BikeBrake_07-18-2011_13h12m12s.raw   1:10:09.1     100.71
logs\BikeBrake_07-20-2011_14h00m53s.raw   1:10:12.4     100.42
logs\BikeBrake_07-24-2011_13h41m13s.raw   1:10:20.2     103.44
logs\BikeBrake_08-01-2011_15h37m30s.raw   1:10:10.9     100.62
logs\BikeBrake_08-03-2011_13h47m30s.raw   1:10:11.3     104.12
logs\BikeBrake_08-04-2011_18h02m08s.raw   1:10:15.8     95.95
logs\BikeBrake_08-09-2011_12h59m31s.raw   1:10:14.7     104.57
logs\BikeBrake_08-18-2011_14h22m33s.raw   1:10:14.3     97.13
logs\BikeBrake_08-20-2011_16h52m49s.raw   1:10:10.5     96.79
logs\BikeBrake_08-22-2011_16h52m24s.raw   1:10:11.0     95.79
logs\BikeBrake_08-23-2011_14h59m23s.raw   1:10:06.5     93.97
logs\BikeBrake_08-28-2011_18h03m05s.raw   1:10:13.7     95.18
logs\BikeBrake_09-06-2011_14h59m03s.raw   1:10:14.0     90.67
logs\BikeBrake_09-11-2011_16h45m30s.raw   1:10:16.3     94.06
logs\BikeBrake_09-16-2011_17h30m48s.raw   1:10:15.0     101.04
logs\BikeBrake_09-18-2011_18h15m57s.raw   1:10:16.3     96.54
logs\BikeBrake_10-06-2011_10h59m14s.raw   1:10:33.8     86.90
logs\BikeBrake_10-10-2011_14h31m06s.raw   1:10:23.4     96.37
logs\BikeBrake_10-11-2011_14h32m33s.raw   1:10:14.6     100.29

Lost over 100 pounds over 7 years on that bike.

[boB]

I would settle for "unity" !

boB

[BrianHG]

I would settle for "unity" !

boB

It exists!  In 2 places!
1.  It's called a superconductor.  Charge a ring coil superconductor, and that electrical charge will circulate in it forever free of any resistance.
2.  Cool helium below 4 degrees Kelvin, it then becomes a ZERO friction flowing fluid.  Bump, or hit that fluid to make a small moving fluid fountain, and that fountain will keep on circulating forever, never stopping.  That is unless you warm up the liquid helium beyond 4 degrees kelvin.

[boB]

I would settle for "unity" !

boB

It exists!  In 2 places!
1.  It's called a superconductor.  Charge a ring coil superconductor, and that electrical charge will circulate in it forever free of any resistance.
2.  Cool helium below 4 degrees Kelvin, it then becomes a ZERO friction flowing fluid.  Bump, or hit that fluid to make a small moving fluid fountain, and that fountain will keep on circulating forever, never stopping.  That is unless you warm up the liquid helium beyond 4 degrees kelvin.

Yes infinite circulating current !

But does that include keeping the coolness ? 

boB

[BrianHG]

I would settle for "unity" !

boB

It exists!  In 2 places!
1.  It's called a superconductor.  Charge a ring coil superconductor, and that electrical charge will circulate in it forever free of any resistance.
2.  Cool helium below 4 degrees Kelvin, it then becomes a ZERO friction flowing fluid.  Bump, or hit that fluid to make a small moving fluid fountain, and that fountain will keep on circulating forever, never stopping.  That is unless you warm up the liquid helium beyond 4 degrees kelvin.

Yes infinite circulating current !

But does that include keeping the coolness ? 

boB

Deep space is around 2.7 degrees kelvin. (The temperature of the cosmic microwave background radiation.) So, no need to keep cooling you super conductors/super fluids out there...

[JimRemington]

Here is my homemade exercise bike/generator for phone charging and post-apocalyptic survival.

It uses a 300W 24V scooter motor as the generator, with 1:7 chainwheel ratio, and can comfortably put out 12V/10A while peddling easily, burning calories and losing weight. Along the lines of this thread, it is surely putting out more power than I'm putting in!

Total cost less than US$100 ($13 for the bike at a thrift shop).