Author Topic: I tried a Mac for video editing...  (Read 118763 times)

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Offline hans

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Re: I tried a Mac for video editing...
« Reply #125 on: April 09, 2013, 07:12:46 pm »
Dave i'm sure you are more than capable of assembling a system. You just need a parts list and a couple of hours. Building a PC is just like lego these days.

Yes, but it's just easier to pick and order everything from someone like this:
http://www.centrecom.com.au/catalog/build.php
Rather than buying this bit from here, this bit from there etc.
I suspect you won't save a huge amount by sourcing separately and building yourself?  :-//
It's been decades since I built my own PC.
Not really no. In Netherlands we are cheap, and have pricewatches. A couple of dozen shops update their prices daily for products, so we can find the best, place reviews etc. Unfortunately, all local market.
However, I do use it when putting together a new system. If you would order all parts at 1 'good' shop with reasonable prices, compared to getting cheapest everywhere (sometimes ordering at 4 or 5 shops).. it saves about <10% or so. E.g., on 600 euro's I can save about 50.

My experience with PC's these days is: it's very easy to assemble but not completely frustration free.
For example: I owned a Gigabyte motherboard once, which had such a crappy UEFI BIOS it wouldn't boot with certain USB devices plugged in (external harddrive) or a displayport monitor (I have to use DisplayPort for triple screen setups). Took me a week to figure out it's Gigabyte's crappy BIOS firmware.
RMA'ed the board (takes 1-2 weeks to process), had to seek replacement PC in the meantime, buy a different board, etc.

At that point I wish I just bought all the parts + 50 euro assembly + testing fee.
However, then the shop would need a computer case, harddrives, PSU, etc. I always reuse those parts, so I am not going to buy them twice..

Ah well, what I would do when assembling a new system now:

Intel i5 3570K or i7 3770K CPU. Note the 'K'. This is an unlocked CPU, ready for overclocking, and costs about 10$ - 15$ more. Moreover, it features a Intel HD4000 GPU over a HD2500 (in the non-K edition), which is faster with Quicksync video encoding.
So even on casual systems I'd spend 10$ extra for the much faster GPU. It may come in handy some day.

RAM: 16GB, 2 sticks of some sort. 1333/1600MHz DDR3 is good
Motherboard: recommend sticking with the major guys like Asus or MSI. I always have had trouble with other manufacturers.
SSD: Crucial m4, Samsung 840 series, Plextor M5P series, are all very fast and good drives. Get like 128G or maybe 256G (if you have big apps or games) as boot and Windows drive. Can't live without..
GPU: If you don't run games use the onboard Intel. It would probably outrun a low-end dedicated GPU..

HDD's/casing/power supply: reuse, buy whatever you like. Wouldn't cut on PSU's too much, as we all know how bad PSU's can get.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: I tried a Mac for video editing...
« Reply #126 on: April 09, 2013, 08:04:51 pm »
Hmm, looks like I can get a 2nd hand Xeon Dell machine pretty cheap (under $1K).
A Precision T3600 with Quad Core Xeon E5-1620 @ 3.60GHz
http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Xeon+E5-1620+%40+3.60GHz
With 7200 RAID hard drive system and a NVIDIA Quadro NVS310 card (doesn't sound that modern?)

Would that be a good deal and decent system for rendering?
 

Offline peter.mitchell

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Re: I tried a Mac for video editing...
« Reply #127 on: April 09, 2013, 08:08:39 pm »
Not really, you could get a pre-assembled equivalent for about the same price AND warranty.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: I tried a Mac for video editing...
« Reply #128 on: April 09, 2013, 08:10:16 pm »
Not really, you could get a pre-assembled equivalent for about the same price AND warranty.

It includes a 1yr warranty.
 

Offline peter.mitchell

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Re: I tried a Mac for video editing...
« Reply #129 on: April 09, 2013, 08:30:08 pm »
Not really, you could get a pre-assembled equivalent for about the same price AND warranty.

It includes a 1yr warranty.

Sorry for assuming, though, it still doesn't make it much better, for example, here is a "budget" equivalent hardware one.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/677635/Scorpion%20Technology%20Computers%20Pty%20Ltd.htm

I say equivalent hardware, because it does not include assy or OS, it doesn't include an optical drive, though you could just scavenge one, however the hardware is better i assume (in regards to ram, hdds, cpu ect) to make up for that.

With that said, i don't know the complete specs of the other machine, however, having a xeon e5-1620 does imply it is a pretty good system still.

Also, on the website, it show the included card, quadro NVS310 pretty far down the list http://www.videocardbenchmark.net/directCompute.html
I'd swap it out for the 5870.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 08:34:56 pm by peter.mitchell »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: I tried a Mac for video editing...
« Reply #130 on: April 09, 2013, 08:47:47 pm »
With that said, i don't know the complete specs of the other machine, however, having a xeon e5-1620 does imply it is a pretty good system still.

Yes, it seems pretty much on par with the i7 3770 and AMD FX-8350 solutions. It's only has 8GB of 1600MHz non-eCC ram though.
The whole point I guess be have it be a well engineered known base machine, not just some slapped together box.
It does come with this RAID controller:
http://www.dell.com/Learn/us/en/04/campaigns/dell-raid-controllers?c=us&l=en&s=bsd
https://express.ikoula.com/sites/default/files/fiche_perc_h310.pdf

Quote
Also, on the website, it show the included card, quadro NVS310 pretty far down the list http://www.videocardbenchmark.net/directCompute.html
I'd swap it out for the 5870.

Yeah, it would likely get swapped out eventually.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 08:50:15 pm by EEVblog »
 

Offline moemoe

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Re: I tried a Mac for video editing...
« Reply #131 on: April 09, 2013, 09:08:01 pm »
Yes, it seems pretty much on par with the i7 3770 and AMD FX-8350 solutions. It's only has 8GB of 1600MHz non-eCC ram though.
8GB is imho not a real "problem", it should work real fine. And, if not, you still have the possibility to put in some more bars.

The whole point I guess be have it be a well engineered known base machine, not just some slapped together box.
After my experience, dell has also a well built cooling, so not generating to much noise.

It does come with this RAID controller:
http://www.dell.com/Learn/us/en/04/campaigns/dell-raid-controllers?c=us&l=en&s=bsd
https://express.ikoula.com/sites/default/files/fiche_perc_h310.pdf

Imho useless, because it has no battery backed up write cache, and this is what gives real performance.

The performance impact on raid1 with hw raid controllers is none, as it is in fact no difference with DMA these days between writing the same data to 1 or 2 hdds. So I would even disable the hw raid and use (windows) software raid. This way, the disks work on every windows pc, and you won't get any problems with plugging them in elsewhere or even a defective raid controller.

So it sounds like a reasonable offer, I would go for this system, with the option of putting more memory or an ssd (for os and applications, not video data, like samsung 840 128gb@~150$) into it.
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: I tried a Mac for video editing...
« Reply #132 on: April 09, 2013, 09:09:23 pm »
Ah well, what I would do when assembling a new system now:
Intel i5 3570K or i7 3770K CPU. Note the 'K'. This is an unlocked CPU, ready for overclocking, and costs about 10$ - 15$ more. Moreover, it features a Intel HD4000 GPU over a HD2500 (in the non-K edition), which is faster with Quicksync video encoding.
So even on casual systems I'd spend 10$ extra for the much faster GPU. It may come in handy some day.

Yes, it's likely I would not need an external video card in that case, saving a few hundred.
Thanks for the tip on the K, will certainly get that if I get an i7 3770

Quote
RAM: 16GB, 2 sticks of some sort. 1333/1600MHz DDR3 is good

What about 2400MHz DDR3 (and MB's that support it), better I'm assuming?
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: I tried a Mac for video editing...
« Reply #133 on: April 09, 2013, 09:11:52 pm »
So it sounds like a reasonable offer, I would go for this system, with the option of putting more memory or an ssd (for os and applications, not video data, like samsung 840 128gb@~150$) into it.

I already have a 128GB Samsung 840 SSD I can use.
Someone on twitter mentioned the  E5 Xeon doesn't have Intel QuickSync Video, that could be a negative over the i7 3770K solution.
 

Offline Hobgoblin612

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Re: I tried a Mac for video editing...
« Reply #134 on: April 09, 2013, 09:25:58 pm »
Something else to consider is a Ram disk. With RAM being so cheap now its quite a viable option for video editing. If the editing software supports a scratch disk this can help a lot.
ooooohh... what does this button do???
 

Offline moemoe

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Re: I tried a Mac for video editing...
« Reply #135 on: April 09, 2013, 09:31:11 pm »
Quote
RAM: 16GB, 2 sticks of some sort. 1333/1600MHz DDR3 is good
What about 2400MHz DDR3 (and MB's that support it), better I'm assuming?

On the data sheet better transfer performance and Latency. But in a range of some %, so only measurable with benchmarks. And as video encoding is still CPU bound, putting the bucks in there will give probably more influence on the result.

I don't even know if it is natively supported by the CPUs, or just usefull for overclockers setting up the whole system bus speed.
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Offline moemoe

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Re: I tried a Mac for video editing...
« Reply #136 on: April 09, 2013, 09:35:10 pm »
Something else to consider is a Ram disk. With RAM being so cheap now its quite a viable option for video editing. If the editing software supports a scratch disk this can help a lot.

Modern OSes automatically use the free RAM as some sort of ram disk (better say: read cache, just keep the recently accessed files there as long as possible).  As I wouldn't recommend a writable RAM disk (data loss on power loss), and writing encoding video is just a data stream without seeks (hence the seperated video+system disks) that can be handled at datarates above 100 Mb/s by todays disks without any problem, I see no good reason for a dedicated RAM disk.
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Offline ecat

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Re: I tried a Mac for video editing...
« Reply #137 on: April 09, 2013, 09:40:50 pm »
Or for that extra 30% gain in speed and willies
http://www.scorptec.com.au/computer/47822-p9x79-le
http://www.scorptec.com.au/computer/43136-bx80619i73930k

The i7 3930 looks to be the sweet spot in price vs absolute performance, the big problem is the lack of cheaper motherboards.

Quad Channel Memory Architecture. So 4 sticks would be better than 2?

You can probably complete this for about $1500 all in, 50% extra cost for 30% extra performance.

 

Offline moemoe

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Re: I tried a Mac for video editing...
« Reply #138 on: April 09, 2013, 09:48:42 pm »
The i7 3930 looks to be the sweet spot in price vs absolute performance, the big problem is the lack of cheaper motherboards.

I neither see integrated graphics nor QuickSync on http://ark.intel.com/products/63697/intel-core-i7-3930k-processor-12m-cache-up-to-3_80-ghz?q=i7-393

QuickSync is only available on third gen i-processors.
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: I tried a Mac for video editing...
« Reply #139 on: April 09, 2013, 09:49:38 pm »
This mob recommend Socket 2011 for video editing.
http://www.gr-tek.com.au/
http://www.gr-tek.com.au/proddetail.php?prod=2011Desktop

Either the i7 3820 in the base model, or i7 3930K for an extra $369
 

Online dr.diesel

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Re: I tried a Mac for video editing...
« Reply #140 on: April 09, 2013, 10:08:26 pm »
Dave, how quick are you looking to build/buy?  Intel's Haswell will drop sometime this summer, offering ~15% more go while consuming less power.  This also includes integrated GPU performance that is supposed to be on par with an nvidia 650.

Offline dimlow

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Re: I tried a Mac for video editing...
« Reply #141 on: April 09, 2013, 10:11:35 pm »
I didn't see how you configured it but i would start with this. Maybe go with the lower spec motherboard but then there are only 4 memory slots.

 

Offline mariush

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Re: I tried a Mac for video editing...
« Reply #142 on: April 09, 2013, 10:45:44 pm »
Dave, the people recommending i7 3930k and socket 2011 motherboards are making systems for editing videos with lots of video and audio tracks, where it's important to have good memory bandwidth and fast disk access. Socket 2011 boards are better for memory bandwidth as they have quad channel compared to dual channel on everything else.
You don't have this pattern, you're using maybe just a handful of video tracks and special effects (like fast speed etc)

I would argue that the extra costs are not really worth the money.

Here's how CPUs compare at real h264 encoding (2nd pass at high quality): http://www.anandtech.com/bench/CPU/28

Is it really worth paying around 500$ more compared to an AMD system for a 10-30% encoding increase in speed?

Here's some math based on US prices:

An AMD FX-8350 is about 200$ in US.  A reasonable motherboard for it is about 110-130$. A good cpu heatsink+cooler is about 30$  so overall you're looking at 350-400$ for the base.

On the other hand, the cheapest and reasonable socket 2011 motherboard is about 210$. A good cpu heatsink + cooler is about 40-60$. 

The cheapest socket 2011 cpu, i7 3820 is around 300$, can't be overclocked and is weaker at doing HD encoding than both FX-8320 and FX-8350.

The i7 3930k is a huge jump to 570$ or more, and it does better than the AMD systems.

So you're looking at around 550$ (3820+mb+fan)  - 800$ (3930k + mb + fan)

Keep in mind that to benefit from that Intel system, you'd also have to use the quad channel system, so you'd have to buy 4 memory modules while on AMD platforms you could have only 2 modules... that's another cost.

The 3820 is by default weaker at encoding than AMDs so it's out of the race, you're left with the i7 3930k solution that's about 400$ more expensive.
You can do a lot with those money, like buying a more capable video card to speed up the process etc, buying that hardware encoder, buying a better video camera, or maybe just throwing that 400$ to your ISP for more upload bandwidth (so you could use more relaxed encoding settings and get stuff faster)

Hell, the price difference is so big it's enough for buying a SECOND AMD base system... with longer videos, you could just make a copy to the second computer, encode first half on first pc, second on the second pc, and then merge them. With CRF encodings, this is possible, no problems at all.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: I tried a Mac for video editing...
« Reply #143 on: April 09, 2013, 11:08:05 pm »
From here:
http://www.scorptec.com.au/
An i7 3770K, ASROCK - Z77-PROFESSIONAL-M MB, 4 x 4GB Corsair 1600 memory, WD Black 7200 2TB drive (will use my 128GB SSD as primary), Corsair - CC500R case, Corsair - CMPSU-430CXv3 430W PSU, no video card
$1158 total

http://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/Fatal1ty%20Z77%20Professional-M/

I figure that system should nail it.
Good value ?
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: I tried a Mac for video editing...
« Reply #144 on: April 09, 2013, 11:14:12 pm »
Dave how much are you prepared to spend chasing the last 10-20% speed?
I don't know what you have now but you said you wanted 400% improvement IIRC from a prev post.

No, that was in relation to switching to a Macintosh platform with Final Cut Pro etc. That requires more, risk, and more time investment in terms of learning a new workflow. I'd be happy to get x2 increase on what I have now.
I wan't want to pay much more than $1K for that. In fact I've never paid more than that for any PC I've ever had.

Quote
Someone included a TomsHardware site graphic of a Handbrake benchmark and I noticed the AMD FX-8350 time was 2:09 and the i7-3970X was 1:44. The AMD is $209 and the i7 is literally 5 TIMES that.

Yes, and I'm not considering the 3970X at all, but the 3770K.
The 3770K has the added advantage of being at least as good or better than the FX-8350, but it crucially has Intel QuickSync video and good enough integrated graphics I will likely not have to buy a video card. I know my current Sony software supports Intel QSV and it quick using it. The FX-8350 is less known.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: I tried a Mac for video editing...
« Reply #145 on: April 09, 2013, 11:17:10 pm »
Dave, the people recommending i7 3930k and socket 2011 motherboards are making systems for editing videos with lots of video and audio tracks, where it's important to have good memory bandwidth and fast disk access. Socket 2011 boards are better for memory bandwidth as they have quad channel compared to dual channel on everything else.
You don't have this pattern, you're using maybe just a handful of video tracks and special effects (like fast speed etc)

Yes, and I have dropped the idea of the socket 2011 now, I am only considering the i7 3770K or maybe the AMD (see previous post)
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: I tried a Mac for video editing...
« Reply #146 on: April 09, 2013, 11:21:32 pm »
Here's how CPUs compare at real h264 encoding (2nd pass at high quality): http://www.anandtech.com/bench/CPU/28

Nice, thanks.
I have two requirement here:
1) Rendering using Sony Movie Studio (possibly my slowest process), which I know supports Intel QuickSync Video which the i7 3770K has. So the AMD is more unknown here.
2) H.264 encoding using Hanbbrake, and it looks like the AMD has the edge here, but not by much.
 

Offline dimlow

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Re: I tried a Mac for video editing...
« Reply #147 on: April 09, 2013, 11:25:37 pm »

Yes, and I'm not considering the 3970X at all, but the 3770K.

3970X is double the price of the 3930K i would not consider it.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 11:28:15 pm by dimlow »
 

Offline Markybhoy

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Re: I tried a Mac for video editing...
« Reply #148 on: April 09, 2013, 11:29:21 pm »
Dave my machine is a i7 3770k 3.5ghz,  let me know if you need anything bench marked unless someone has already for you.
 

Offline mariush

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Re: I tried a Mac for video editing...
« Reply #149 on: April 09, 2013, 11:35:47 pm »
Quote
I figure that system should nail it.
Good value ?

No, not really a good value.
The power supply is enough wattage for the build but it's a cheap model, cut down on components like capacitors to keep the profit up on the brand.  Go for Antec HCG-620 for example, for 10$ more you get a rebranded Seasonic with Japanese capacitors and better quality control and all that: http://www.scorptec.com.au/computer/38328-hcg-620

3770k is weaker than AMD processors at video encoding but may recover the difference if you use something that supports quicksync.
See the following test where you can see FX-83xx compared to other Intel processors:  http://www.anandtech.com/show/6396/the-vishera-review-amd-fx8350-fx8320-fx6300-and-fx4300-tested/3

Here's an AMD build:

115$ http://www.scorptec.com.au/computer/43913-970-extreme4   - Asrock Extreme 4
  99$ http://www.scorptec.com.au/computer/38328-hcg-620  - Antec HCG 620w  (bronze eff./ Seasonic s12ii rebadged)
219$ http://www.scorptec.com.au/computer/48111-fd8350frhkbox   - AMD FX-8350
149$ http://www.scorptec.com.au/computer/49376-cml16gx3m2a1600c9  - Corsair 1600mhz 2x8GB  so you have room for 2 more modules at later time, no perf. increase with 4x4gb

582$.

Add hdd, case, maybe better cpu fan (stock will work fine but it's kinda noisy)

99$ http://www.scorptec.com.au/computer/44675-st2000dm001  seagate 7200rpm 2 TB

  95$  http://www.scorptec.com.au/computer/45532-shinobi-wh-w-u3  bitfenix case OR
119$ http://www.scorptec.com.au/computer/42096-cc400r  Corsair Carbide 400r
 
so add 200-210$

If you want cpu fan too, this would work great:

89$ http://www.scorptec.com.au/computer/39397-nh-c14 Noctua NH-C14

So 582$   + 200-210$ + 90$ = ~ 900$
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 11:38:03 pm by mariush »
 


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