IEEE has bought into Solar Roadways...

[EEVblog]

It's Baaack!
http://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/motoring/the-idea-of-solar-panel-roads-is-an-idea-that-just-wont-go-away-but-should-it/news-story/5106c0a6bcb71aaa586f81d74256a161

I didn't want to have to do another video on this, but it just won't die!
They even want to do crowd funding for the new Route 66 install! 

[rs20]

It's Baaack!

http://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/motoring/the-idea-of-solar-panel-roads-is-an-idea-that-just-wont-go-away-but-should-it/news-story/5106c0a6bcb71aaa586f81d74256a161

To be fair, that article is a dispassionate and "fair" elaboration of the people in favour, and people against the idea. This is pathetic, but nowhere near as pathetic as articles that fail to twig to the mere thought that it might be a bad idea. It's movement in the right direction, at least (in that the detractors are even being mentioned). Even if we're short of noticing that the detractors have hard numbers to back up their claims, but never mind that.

[EEVblog]

There seems to be many articles at the moment about the Route 66 thing. This one seems to be the only one questioning it.

[PlainName]

Says the Dutch trial was more successful than expected. Mind, the source for that is Al Jazera, and their source is a project spokesman, so.... Nevertheless, 6MWh from 70m of the stuff isn't to be sneezed at. I wouldn't mind getting that much juice for free

[dannyf]

It is uninteresting to conclude that the idea is good or bad.

What is interesting, however, is to dissect the idea's merits and its shortcomings and figure out applications where it can excel and where it cannot.

I live in a 4th world neighbor in a 3rd world country and I can see huge advantages of having it on my driveway.

[EEVblog]

Says the Dutch trial was more successful than expected. Mind, the source for that is Al Jazera, and their source is a project spokesman, so.... Nevertheless, 6MWh from 70m of the stuff isn't to be sneezed at. I wouldn't mind getting that much juice for free

You don't get ti for free, it costs a huge amount, an the output is half what you get for a much lower cost and much longer lifespan rooftop installation.

[PlainName]

it costs a huge amount

Indeed. How does that compare to, say, tarmacing the path? I think it needs to be viewed in comparison to what the cost would be of laying a path/road some other way.

an the output is half

Couple of years back we made a serious effort to go solar. At the time, the UK was promising subsidies that would have worked out at £4k/yr in our pocket after expenses for 25 years. You can imagine that we did our damndest to get something installed, and we had the space/roofs to do it too. Yet we still have no solar. Sometimes the 'best' solution isn't practical for any of many reasons. We would give a left nut to "only" get £2k/yr return from the same outlay!

[wblock]

Every single time this comes up, people need to link to the Korean solar road that is the efficient and effective way to do it:


The idea of using glass panels for road surfaces is impractical in many ways, and while dumber countries spend years throwing money at a pointless problem, that road in Korea is working right now.

[edy]

    Yes, this South Korean example is awesome.

Also, notice that this also has a pedestrian/bike path under the panels and you have, as Dave would say "Winner Winner Chicken Dinner". 

Not only would it be green in producing solar power energy, but also allow people to bike and walk which is even better. Safe and sheltered path. Also, maintenance on these panels would be easy because technicians could just travel under them to any area that needed diagnosis/repair. No shutting down the roadway.

Why the government doesn't see solar roadways as complete and utter nonsense, compared to the Korean example, just makes you want to do this.... 

[dannyf]

that road in Korea is working right now.

seems silly to put it in the median only. Why not cover the whole surface of the road? it protects against snow, sun / heat, and rain. Does make accident recovery / rescue a little difficult.

[wblock]

And the panels are at an angle for higher efficiency, which also means that rain and snow will help clean them.  If that's not enough, a service cart can drive down the path and mop them off.

They won't be driven on by tractor-trailers, or heavy road construction or maintenance equipment, or people with studded snow tires or tire chains.

They won't be scraped by snowplows.

They won't be scratched by gravel and sand grains under the tires of heavy vehicles.

Dripping oil, antifreeze, and transmission fluid won't cover them, seep into the surface scratches, and be impossible to remove.

They don't need a special material or pattern etched into the glass for traction, so they don't lose solar efficiency.  Nor do they need to be replaced when the traction layer wears off.

When panels do need to be replaced, it can be done without closing lanes of the road or endangering service workers.

All this, available now without special engineering or development of magic materials or testing of new traction compounds or surfaces.  Practical now, at a fraction of the cost of putting solar panels into the worst possible location imaginable short of a dark basement.

[wblock]

that road in Korea is working right now.

seems silly to put it in the median only. Why not cover the whole surface of the road? it protects against snow, sun / heat, and rain. Does make accident recovery / rescue a little difficult.

If they are over the entire road, they have to be tall enough for the tallest vehicles.  The support structure has to be a lot bigger, stronger, and more expensive.  It would also mean maintenance is more dangerous.

Better to put additional panels over the shoulder or the outer ditch.  If they are needed, anyway.  It would be interesting to work out what distance of median-only panels would be enough to power an entire country.

[dannyf]

If that's not enough, a service cart can drive down the path and mop them off.

Built-in sensors + heaters.

[wblock]

Think dust, not ice.  Besides, electrical heating is backwards for solar panels and snow or ice.  When you have power, the panel is not covered.  When the panel is covered... you don't have power.  (At this point, somebody suggests we just hook them to the grid, so they'll always have power.  Or add batteries...)

[dannyf]

electrical heating is backwards for solar panels and snow or ice.

it is backwards only for those who cannot think.

[PlainName]

Also, notice that this also has a pedestrian/bike path under the panels

Noticed that, and my first thought was: where do they get on/off? I mean, sometimes you can go many many miles between junctions and I'd hate to be walking along that path knowing it's, say, 4 miles until I can get off

[edy]

Also, notice that this also has a pedestrian/bike path under the panels

Noticed that, and my first thought was: where do they get on/off? I mean, sometimes you can go many many miles between junctions and I'd hate to be walking along that path knowing it's, say, 4 miles until I can get off

When there are overpasses/underpasses, there may be an interconnect (a stairwell) that lets you get up or down from the center of the highway to the underpass. I don't think you can cycle from the middle of the road across to the outer edge... certainly not without endangering yourself. However, at any bridges, you will probably have an escape stairwell that takes you to the edge of the road on the junction underneath. Then you can continue on your way safely.

If you are a cyclist, you will no doubt have already decided on your route and you know where and how far you are going, and having long flat stretches will be perfectly fine. 4 miles on a bike to get to the next intersection is nothing. Plus, these highways look to be in the country-side and are for long rides between neighboring suburbs or small cities anyways. You probably aren't going to want to get off in between. I wouldn't mind cycling these paths. Walking is another story. I think it's impractical for walking. Maybe jogging. Personally, I wouldn't have the patience or stamina, or fitness level. I'd bike it.

[PlainName]

I'd bike it

I'd take a car - there's a jolly good roadway going that way after all

[wblock]

electrical heating is backwards for solar panels and snow or ice.

it is backwards only for those who cannot think.

Please enlighten us, maestro.

[LabSpokane]

Just saw this article from the IEEE 

http://transmitter.ieee.org/solar-power-hits-the-road/

Which is why IEEE membership has become utterly pointless to me.  As soon as I saw the local IEEE chapter hosting Solar Roadways - this was years ago now - I googled it. 

There's a lot of smart IEEE members, but I have a hell of time writing a $250 check to an organization that holds data and standards hostage from its members and simultaneously is unable to perform the fundamental arithmetic that should kill Solar Roads at the outset.  IEEE is being taken over by idiots.  This isn't the first time they've decided to insult their membership's intelligence. 

[strangersound]

The dumbshit media are still at it...Bloomberg this time rambling about solar roadways to be built on 4 continents next year! 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-11-24/solar-panel-roads-to-be-built-across-four-continents-next-year

I swear the extinction of the human race will be a direct result of exponential stupidity. 

[digsys]

.. I swear the extinction of the human race will be a direct result of exponential stupidity ...

+1

[SeanB]

electrical heating is backwards for solar panels and snow or ice.

it is backwards only for those who cannot think.

Please enlighten us, maestro.

How much energy does it take to melt a kilogram of water ice? Then think that on a perfect black body absorber ( what a tarred road is basically) that you get snowfall that does not melt until spring, unless you scrape it to a thin layer with a plow and then add salt to melt the rest off. If you have a solar panel there, which is at best 15% effective ( and how much good is it under a layer of snow anyway) you still need to add a load of energy, that has to come from somewhere like say a coal power plant, and which then melts the snow, and which then promptly freezes into an ice block on leaving the heated panel, building a massive ice dam.

Compare that to a roof, where you simply can make the surface a lipophilic coating, and thus something that sheds snow easily, plus it is at an angle where it will shed with the prevailing wind as well. Self cleaning, plus at a better angle so better collection of winter sun.

[System Error Message]

Regarding solar roadways, its not entirely bs if the rules are actually followed. In cities however people drive bumper to bumper, outside the city on the highway people still drive close to one another which really makes this pointless.

Lets go through the points assuming people actually follow the rules while driving.
- space between cars on the highway is quite far so you can expect around 30% of road is covered during the day
- the solar could be used to power road signs and establishments nearby, its not great for a whole national grid.
- trees, being important cover pavements so solar on pavements will be limited

In the city the only place for solar is on buildings as pavements are full of people and roads full of cars. If you want to take advantage of driving rules than you could place solar roads on the yellow boxes in junctions where people arent supposed to keep their car on it (but they still do regardless making traffic jams worse). People dont follow the rules when driving, even as a pedestrians theres a few times i almost got hit just because some guy beat the red lights or decides to speed up taking a corner not on the main road (junctions, tight roads, entrances to many places like hotels) and thats in the UK.

[Delta]

Regarding solar roadways, its not entirely bs if the rules are actually followed. In cities however people drive bumper to bumper, outside the city on the highway people still drive close to one another which really makes this pointless.

Lets go through the points assuming people actually follow the rules while driving.
- space between cars on the highway is quite far so you can expect around 30% of road is covered during the day
- the solar could be used to power road signs and establishments nearby, its not great for a whole national grid.
- trees, being important cover pavements so solar on pavements will be limited

In the city the only place for solar is on buildings as pavements are full of people and roads full of cars. If you want to take advantage of driving rules than you could place solar roads on the yellow boxes in junctions where people arent supposed to keep their car on it (but they still do regardless making traffic jams worse). People dont follow the rules when driving, even as a pedestrians theres a few times i almost got hit just because some guy beat the red lights or decides to speed up taking a corner not on the main road (junctions, tight roads, entrances to many places like hotels) and thats in the UK.

Or... Just don't but bloody PV panels underneath a bloody road...