Impact of US government spending impasse

[apis]

Chances are hopefully high that they get caught, but here's the thing, they don't get caught by TSA, they get caught by good old fashioned police and intelligence work. Indeed numerous plots have been foiled since 9/11, the number of those where TSA played a part in foiling them? Zero. As I've already stated, TSA is security theater, the real security goes on behind the scenes, mostly not in the airports.

There's a fair bit of evidence the number of plots foiled isn't actually as large as portrayed, but who can resist appearing more effective and worthwhile?

Indeed.
"Today we foiled a plot but we can't tell you anything about it because, you know, secrets. But we assure you it's all for your own safety. Now please give us more money and methods to spy on people, etc."

[beanflying]

Really glad for the workers will actually get some relief from this BS regardless of their jobs. At least this about decides who isn't getting elected as big cheese in 2020 unless 36% becomes the new majority

If you take a slightly longer term look at Terrorisim in the USA the actual number of incidents (not just the numbers of deaths or injuries) you are more likely to be in the path of a White Male of some sort of Christian upbringing. 9/11 was obviously a huge thing and I would never try and diminish it but prior to 2001 in particular this is overwhelmingly the case. When the USA commenced the 'War on Terror' this only shifted the numbers to maybe 50/50 Muslim to Christian with most still being US citizens?

That is before you even get to your tragic mass (and single) shootings which don't fall under terrorism but claim so many more lives per year. 

[james_s]

Well yes, but all of these things combined are dwarfed by the number of people killed due to distracted driving. Deaths involving mobile phone use while driving exceeded deaths caused by intoxicated driving a couple years ago and continue to increase. More people are killed by swimming pools than by terrorists of all types.

It illustrates a quirk in the way the human mind works. People fear shark attacks despite the fact that the odds of being a victim of one are tiny. They think nothing of climbing into a car and blasting down the highway with a latte in one hand and a phone in the other despite the fact that driving cars kills some 50,000 people a year. That's a fully loaded airliner worth of people every single day.

The common flu kills some 20,000 a year in the USA alone. Then there is obesity, heart disease, smoking, etc.

[cdev]

Certain kinds of government spending have guaranteed profit margins built in to them. Other things are increasingly supposed to be farmed out to the lowest bidders, wherever they are, even if outside the US.

Thats why some kinds of things get more and more tax money appropriated to them and many other kinds of things get neglected and/or privatized.

[tooki]

TSA was created because in the chaos after 9/11 the public demanded that the government "do something" to prevent another attack, so it exists as a public show to make people feel safer. The fact that TSA has failed nearly every publicized test, never caught even one terrorist and cost billions of dollars while hassling millions of people does not sway some people's opinion of their lack of value. I was impressed by just how much more smoothly the whole operation seemed to run during the shutdown. I was expecting chaos and long delays but it was quite the opposite.

There are numerous holes in the system making it obvious that it's just theater. If one wanted to get around the limitation on the amount of liquid one can carry on board there's nothing stopping 20 people buying the cheapest tickets they can find to whatever destination, passing through security and then pooling all the stuff each individual carried through and assembling whatever nefarious device in any number of locations within the terminal. If one wanted a weapon, you can't carry knives on board but you can carry sharp scissors which are easily disassembled into two knives. Or fly in from one of those little podunk airports that doesn't have the body scanners, the last time I returned from a small town it occurred to me that I was inside the secured area in SeaTac having bypassed the whole security show with a 40 minute flight from Bend. For those with more budget, international flights also bypass TSA.

Before anyone flips out that I'm providing terrorists with ideas, I'll just point out that this is all really obvious stuff that any schmuck who has flown somewhere would notice if they were looking for exploits.

What irritates me about TSA is that they claim it's stopped terrorists, but they refuse to release any statistics or proof, expecting us to take their word for it. I'd be a lot more inclined to accept the indignities of airport security if we actually knew it was doing something. But as you say, what little we do know is evidence of it being useless security theater.

[nick_d]

US Government spending dropped only 7% during the shutdown.

When you have a large budget to protect and somebody reduces that budget by 7%, the last thing you would do is curtail any inessential services. You would only curtail the most essential services, to cause the biggest hullaballoo possible. This will convince the public to reinstate that 7%. If you curtailed the useless things such as regulation of foodstuffs or whatnot, then nobody would even notice and you'd lose 7% of your budget.

Nick

[Mr. Scram]

What irritates me about TSA is that they claim it's stopped terrorists, but they refuse to release any statistics or proof, expecting us to take their word for it. I'd be a lot more inclined to accept the indignities of airport security if we actually knew it was doing something. But as you say, what little we do know is evidence of it being useless security theater.

Isn't that the case with most of it? Various agencies and programs also claim successes and attacks prevented, but when pressed for verifiable numbers or proof it's denied on the grounds of it being secret. Even if they're telling the truth, the behaviour lines up with that of a classic con man. These agencies have gotten far reaching powers, yet don't do anything to show they're employing them responsibly nor have an incentive to do so. There's no way that won't get us in trouble.

We're not even talking about how some programs, policies and strategies verifiably foster and breed terrorism, but that's another discussion.

[james_s]

There are enough people out there who hate us that it wouldn't surprise me if there were occasional plots being foiled. Personally I suspect the various terrorist cells are taking a break to let things pan out, they already accomplished their goal with 9/11, we're still bleeding money, we're still suffering great inconvenience, we're still mired in multiple wars that have cost far more lives and money than the 9/11 attacks did and still have no exit plan. I said years ago that they're probably going to wait until we've spent all the money we're going to spend on fancy body scanners and such, wound down the wars and become complacent again, then they'll try something different to get everybody worked up again.

[Mr. Scram]

There are enough people out there who hate us that it wouldn't surprise me if there were occasional plots being foiled. Personally I suspect the various terrorist cells are taking a break to let things pan out, they already accomplished their goal with 9/11, we're still bleeding money, we're still suffering great inconvenience, we're still mired in multiple wars that have cost far more lives and money than the 9/11 attacks did and still have no exit plan. I said years ago that they're probably going to wait until we've spent all the money we're going to spend on fancy body scanners and such, wound down the wars and become complacent again, then they'll try something different to get everybody worked up again.

It's probably a mistake to see "the terrorists" as a single coordinated entity, rather than a huge ideology with various parts and subcultures. However, one of the big problems is that terrorists seem to be created at a greater pace than they can be combated. That's what happens when things keep being stirred up, creating chaos and suffering. It's much easier to recruit and mislead people when they are suffering and when society isn't supporting them and keeping them on the straight and narrow. Before 9/11 there was a very small group of men out to hurt the US. It was a limited and fairly well defined group. Due to the various conflicts all over the world and the suffering caused by them it has now become an ideology. We all know you can't kill ideas. A small problem has been made into a big one and we're going to see the consequences for decades to come.

Tl;dr keep fucking with people and they'll start disliking you.

[cdev]

The world and especially entities of any kind, that are trying to force any one point of view on the rest of the planet, have to stand down!  Also, acknowledge their mistakes. Failure to ever acknowledge wrongdoing or mistake creates a sort of vacuum into which extremist ideas proliferate.

A moral society cant be faked, nor can democracy or legitimate governance be faked. It has to be real, in other words, not itself be extremism, to have the effect of nullifying extremism.


This return to honesty is really needed. We have to face the fact that due to technology, the barriers to would be 'terrorists' of all kinds are falling and continue to fall. What this means is that despite the theatrics, the best, really the only way to prevent 'terrorism' is to create a global society that doesn't turn anybody into the kind of person who feels that such horrible things are permissible, or that 'the ends justify the means' in any way. Also, ambiguities in what society expects from people shouldn't be so great as to make every knowledge or power gradient 'game-able' like it is today.

Even if that greatly diminishes the profitability of raw capitalism.

Nobody should feel that they are so far above, entitled, or removed from society that they have any right to act in such a way.

But, people see such behavior every day, from the super-rich, for example. For whom a different justice system exists. They can do no wrong, while the poor - it seems in some peoples eyes, can do no right.

So, everything thats creates or permits a culture of impunity to exist, makes it harder and harder to prevent various forms of terrorism. Be it by state or non-state actors. Governments, the wealthy, and people who hold positions of advantage over others, like employers and people who hold public office or who have a fiduciary duty like legislators, bankers, lawyers, executors, and similar, especially should be held to much higher standards than anybody else when it comes to the areas they administer.

There are enough people out there who hate us that it wouldn't surprise me if there were occasional plots being foiled. Personally I suspect the various terrorist cells are taking a break to let things pan out, they already accomplished their goal with 9/11, we're still bleeding money, we're still suffering great inconvenience, we're still mired in multiple wars that have cost far more lives and money than the 9/11 attacks did and still have no exit plan. I said years ago that they're probably going to wait until we've spent all the money we're going to spend on fancy body scanners and such, wound down the wars and become complacent again, then they'll try something different to get everybody worked up again.

Follow the money.

Money is at the root of much evil.

[nctnico]

There are enough people out there who hate us that it wouldn't surprise me if there were occasional plots being foiled. Personally I suspect the various terrorist cells are taking a break to let things pan out, they already accomplished their goal with 9/11, we're still bleeding money, we're still suffering great inconvenience, we're still mired in multiple wars that have cost far more lives and money than the 9/11 attacks did and still have no exit plan. I said years ago that they're probably going to wait until we've spent all the money we're going to spend on fancy body scanners and such, wound down the wars and become complacent again, then they'll try something different to get everybody worked up again.

It's probably a mistake to see "the terrorists" as a single coordinated entity, rather than a huge ideology with various parts and subcultures. However, one of the big problems is that terrorists seem to be created at a greater pace than they can be combated. That's what happens when things keep being stirred up, creating chaos and suffering. It's much easier to recruit and mislead people when they are suffering and when society isn't supporting them and keeping them on the straight and narrow. Before 9/11 there was a very small group of men out to hurt the US. It was a limited and fairly well defined group. Due to the various conflicts all over the world and the suffering caused by them it has now become an ideology. We all know you can't kill ideas. A small problem has been made into a big one and we're going to see the consequences for decades to come.

Did it occur to you that this may be a deliberate strategy of the US government? Having enemies keeps the weapons industry busy and conveniently distracts the public from internal problems. Machiavelli already outlined this strategy to keep the people quiet in his book 'il principe'.

[Mr. Scram]

Did it occur to you that this may be a deliberate strategy of the US government? Having enemies keeps the weapons industry busy and conveniently distracts the public from internal problems. Machiavelli already outlined this strategy to keep the people quiet in his book 'il principe'.

That's possible in varying degrees, but is also hard to prove and undoubtedly controversial. It's probably not quite a suitable subject for these forums.