Author Topic: Impact of US government spending impasse  (Read 6386 times)

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Offline soldar

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Re: Impact of US government spending impasse
« Reply #75 on: January 13, 2019, 10:13:24 pm »
Still in the US there is too much power in a few persons.
Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.



I actually wrote that there isn't a perfect system but you have to distinguish between systems which are democratic and semi-democratic (the latter designed to keep control away from 'the people'). Read up on the history of the US and Brittain. Systems which put too much power in a few people are much more likely to develop excesses than systems where each vote counts equally. There is no need to go into the technical details because in (almost) every country the democratic system has evolved from having an absolute ruler.
Again, just your unsupported opinion.
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Online nctnico

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Re: Impact of US government spending impasse
« Reply #76 on: January 13, 2019, 10:28:29 pm »
In my opinion there is nothing wrong with my opinion  :horse:  So what is your point?
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Offline soldar

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Re: Impact of US government spending impasse
« Reply #77 on: January 13, 2019, 11:00:25 pm »
In my opinion there is nothing wrong with my opinion  :horse:  So what is your point?
Please forgive me muchly if I might have given the impression that I might have any interest in your opinion. In fact, I do not. I just corrected some of your statements of fact about how the EU legislates. I can understand "There is no need to go into the technical details" when you are not informed about the subject at hand but I thought I would clear up some points for the benefit of those who might be more interested in facts than in your opinions.
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Offline VK3DRB

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Re: Impact of US government spending impasse
« Reply #78 on: January 13, 2019, 11:00:40 pm »
I am not sure who is the biggest international laughing stock - the USA with its government shutdown, or the UK with its Brexit debacle. Both countries are enjoying the leaders they voted for :-DD. In Australia, we have leaders we didn't vote for :palm:, but at least we will never have anything like the mess the USA and UK are in.

Seriously, one must feel for the federal government workers struggling without pay whilst the sociopaths at the top wallow in their wealth and power. One big impact not in the media spotlight is contractors to the US government will not receive any back pay when the govt shutdown ends. Besides who would want to work for an employer that treats you with such contempt. Knowing this, contractors are already abandoning contracts to get work in private enterprise, so when the US government opens again, the government will be in a crippled mess.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Impact of US government spending impasse
« Reply #79 on: January 13, 2019, 11:23:48 pm »
In my opinion there is nothing wrong with my opinion  :horse:  So what is your point?
Please forgive me muchly if I might have given the impression that I might have any interest in your opinion. In fact, I do not. I just corrected some of your statements of fact about how the EU legislates. I can understand "There is no need to go into the technical details" when you are not informed about the subject at hand but I thought I would clear up some points for the benefit of those who might be more interested in facts than in your opinions.
If you have followed the news (US, Turkey, Russia) then you'd see the facts or at least the results of some 'semi democratic' systems support my opinion.

Sure I simplify things but only by simplifying you can get to to the core of a problem quickly. Fixing the problem is the next (seperate) step. Some people don't see that and get tangled up in a mess with details they never can escape from.

But yeah it is hard to see changes need to be made. I've found this interesting article which links changing the US political system to changing a centuries old Dutch tradition: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/14/black-pete-scandal-dutch-silent-sinterklaas
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Offline station240

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Re: Impact of US government spending impasse
« Reply #80 on: January 14, 2019, 12:22:49 am »
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/government-shutdown-becomes-longest-u-s-history-enters-uncharted-territory-n957961

Quote
Jeff Estes has worked as a federal contractor for 35 years in Cape Canaveral, Florida. Now he and his colleagues are out of work because of a partial government shutdown that as of Saturday became the longest in American history.

For Estes, a union official and electrician, the shutdown is becoming particularly burdensome because he’s paying for his two kids to attend college, and the government’s recent decision to change contractors forced him and his coworkers to reapply for their jobs.

With much of the government at a standstill, Estes and his colleagues — members of the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers — aren't sure whether they will still have a job when it's over, he said.

Quote
The number of furloughed employees does not include federal contractors like Estes. It’s unclear how many contract or grant employees are affected by the shutdown — or even how many there are in total — but a Volcker Alliance report estimated that nearly 5.3 million worked as contractors in 2015.

Unlike furloughed federal employees, who have received assurances that they will be paid once the shutdown ends, contractors are not owed back pay. That has left them in an even murkier economic position.

The change of prime contractor usually means the workers just apply for work there, and continue their jobs are before.
However as contractors, these workers don't get ANY back pay for the period the government was shutdown.
 

Offline vtwin@cox.net

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Re: Impact of US government spending impasse
« Reply #81 on: January 14, 2019, 01:09:45 am »
The United States isn't a democracy. It's a representative republic.

A true democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what is for supper.

Hence why the Founding Fathers gave us the electoral college.

Without it (a pure popular vote) the State of California would elect the President.

The electoral college was created to prevent that "tyranny of the majority", which at the time of the signing of the Constitution, the highly agricultural (low population) states were concerned with. If you were forming the United States today without the electoral college, what incentive would Wyoming have to join, knowing California would essentially elect the present for the Union each time? None.

Unfortunately, many young people these days do not understand these concepts, as history is no longer being taught in public school systems.

The long-term prognosis for the country is not a good one.
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Offline donotdespisethesnake

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Re: Impact of US government spending impasse
« Reply #82 on: January 14, 2019, 01:25:14 am »
The United States isn't a democracy. It's a representative republic.

A true democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what is for supper.

Hence why the Founding Fathers gave us the electoral college.

Without it (a pure popular vote) the State of California would elect the President.

So according to that analogy, the US is 2 sheep and 1 wolf, and the wolf decides what is for supper. That is better?  :palm:

Actually the US is more like 99 sheep and 1 wolf, the sheep vote for the wolf, who proceeds to dine on the sheep.

The shutdown is really messing up NASA anyway, which is kinda ironic because one area US leads is in space stuff. They are really shooting themselves in the foot. The company I work for has many govt contracts, the shutdown causes more inconvenience but projects are continuing as normal otherwise.
Bob
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Offline JoeO

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Re: Impact of US government spending impasse
« Reply #83 on: January 14, 2019, 01:50:19 am »
I am not sure who is the biggest international laughing stock - the USA with its government shutdown, or the UK with its Brexit debacle. Both countries are enjoying the leaders they voted for :-DD. In Australia, we have leaders we didn't vote for :palm:, but at least we will never have anything like the mess the USA and UK are in.

Seriously, one must feel for the federal government workers struggling without pay whilst the sociopaths at the top wallow in their wealth and power. One big impact not in the media spotlight is contractors to the US government will not receive any back pay when the govt shutdown ends. Besides who would want to work for an employer that treats you with such contempt. Knowing this, contractors are already abandoning contracts to get work in private enterprise, so when the US government opens again, the government will be in a crippled mess.
I would love to know the source of your statement.  What are you reading?  The Daily Mail?
Where are you getting your information? 
We are not a "crippled mess" during the shutdown.  How could things be worse after the shutdown is over?
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Offline tooki

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Re: Impact of US government spending impasse
« Reply #84 on: January 14, 2019, 01:52:33 am »
 :-BROKEz
I am not sure who is the biggest international laughing stock - the USA with its government shutdown, or the UK with its Brexit debacle. Both countries are enjoying the leaders they voted for :-DD. In Australia, we have leaders we didn't vote for :palm:, but at least we will never have anything like the mess the USA and UK are in.
Except that Americans didn’t vote for Trump: he won because of the geographic distribution of the votes for him — Hillary got 3 million more votes. So he won legitimately, insofar as it’s a fair win according to the rules of the system, but it’s categorically incorrect to say that it was the will of the people, or “who we voted for”.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Impact of US government spending impasse
« Reply #85 on: January 14, 2019, 01:55:40 am »
The United States isn't a democracy. It's a representative republic.

A true democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what is for supper.

Hence why the Founding Fathers gave us the electoral college.

Unfortunately, many young people these days do not understand these concepts, as history is no longer being taught in public school systems.
If you read the history then you'd know that the electoral college was a bad compromise when it was installed. An improvement would be that the votes of the electoral college would be representative for the votes of the people. Currently a candidate which gets more than 50% of the votes gets all the members of the electoral college for a certain state.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2019, 01:58:04 am by nctnico »
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Offline vtwin@cox.net

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Re: Impact of US government spending impasse
« Reply #86 on: January 14, 2019, 02:08:58 am »
So according to that analogy, the US is 2 sheep and 1 wolf, and the wolf decides what is for supper. That is better?  :palm:

Actually the US is more like 99 sheep and 1 wolf, the sheep vote for the wolf, who proceeds to dine on the sheep.

Neither, actually.

The US does not have a national election for President. It has 50 state elections, each state is given a number of electors based on its number of senators and congressmen (who are apportioned according to census figures).

States are free to determine how they apportion their electors in the electoral college. Some states do it based upon a "winner take all" approach (you get 51% of the popular vote in the state, you get 100% of the electors for that state), others use a "proportion" approach where electors are divided based on the popular vote of that state (you get 51% of the popular vote, you get 51% of the electors).

The number of electors your state receives in the electoral college is based on your (the state's) population as a whole (as it is ultimately based on census numbers), not based on the number of people who voted.

So, in principle, each *citizen* (not each *voter*) is equally represented in the electoral college.


The Founding Fathers were true geniuses.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2019, 02:12:10 am by vtwin@cox.net »
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Offline JoeO

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Re: Impact of US government spending impasse
« Reply #87 on: January 14, 2019, 03:04:15 am »
The United States isn't a democracy. It's a representative republic.

A true democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what is for supper.

Hence why the Founding Fathers gave us the electoral college.

Unfortunately, many young people these days do not understand these concepts, as history is no longer being taught in public school systems.
If you read the history then you'd know that the electoral college was a bad compromise when it was installed. An improvement would be that the votes of the electoral college would be representative for the votes of the people. Currently a candidate which gets more than 50% of the votes gets all the members of the electoral college for a certain state.
Wrong!!  Some states apportion their Electoral College votes based on the percentage of votes each candidate receives.
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Offline tomato

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Re: Impact of US government spending impasse
« Reply #88 on: January 14, 2019, 03:14:55 am »
The United States isn't a democracy. It's a representative republic.

A true democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what is for supper.

Hence why the Founding Fathers gave us the electoral college.

Unfortunately, many young people these days do not understand these concepts, as history is no longer being taught in public school systems.
If you read the history then you'd know that the electoral college was a bad compromise when it was installed. An improvement would be that the votes of the electoral college would be representative for the votes of the people. Currently a candidate which gets more than 50% of the votes gets all the members of the electoral college for a certain state.
Wrong!!  Some states apportion their Electoral College votes based on the percentage of votes each candidate receives.

The vast majority of states (48 of 50) use a winner-take-all approach for electoral votes.
 
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Online beanflying

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Re: Impact of US government spending impasse
« Reply #89 on: January 14, 2019, 03:23:20 am »
The electoral college is anything but equal representation and is part of the reason you can be elected without winning the popular vote. The model is flawed and skewed.


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Offline Nusa

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Re: Impact of US government spending impasse
« Reply #90 on: January 14, 2019, 03:30:16 am »
The number of electors your state receives in the electoral college is based on your (the state's) population as a whole (as it is ultimately based on census numbers), not based on the number of people who voted.

So, in principle, each *citizen* (not each *voter*) is equally represented in the electoral college.
Actually, the less populated states get greater per-capita representation than the larger states, because the minimum number of electors is 3 (2 senators (not population based) and 1 representative). A Texas elector represents about 755,312 people, while a Wyoming elector represents 192,579 people. Ditto Washington DC, given 3 electors via 23rd amendment (234,152 people per elector). And then there are the ~4 million citizens in US territories that can only cast symbolic votes for president, with no actual representation at all!

Of course, since the practice of states voting as a block became widespread many years ago (with current exception of Maine and Nebraska, each of which sometimes splits off one vote in practice), it tends to overwhelm that built-in advantage for small states.

All of these facts, history, and arguments are covered here in more detail than we'd want to reproduce in this thread.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Electoral_College
 
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Offline soldar

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Re: Impact of US government spending impasse
« Reply #91 on: January 14, 2019, 03:46:29 am »
Some people do not seem to understand that the United States is... a union of states, not a union of people. When those states got together to form a more perfect union they agreed to certain rules so that everybody could be happy and without that system most smaller states would not have joined.

Just like the European Union is a union of states, not of people.

Those who say it should be a straight popular vote on all matters are trying to destroy something which has worked pretty well since 1776. I would tread carefully.

And I would ask, if voting rights should always be apportioned in proportion to population numbers should the UN and other international bodies work the same way? Would Americans consider giving China, India, Indonesia, etc. representation in proportion to their populations? If not, why not?

Political systems are all very imperfect and require much goodwill on the part of everybody to make them work. Those who think the main problem is the system are mistaken. The USSR had an objectively wonderful constitution which guaranteed all sorts of rights while the UK has no written constitution, a state religion of which the monarch is head, and all sorts of medieval customs which, on the face of them, should have been abolished centuries ago. And yet, which is the better country to live in? The difference is that the British make their system work.

The main problem with the political systems in the third world is not that they don't have a good political system, it is that they have a culture which no political system can make successful. When you have a culture of corruption, not respecting the system, trying to take advantage of it, then no system is going to work.

We need to learn to cooperate more and try to work with the system we each have.
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Offline Nusa

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Re: Impact of US government spending impasse
« Reply #92 on: January 14, 2019, 04:44:44 am »
Actually our Constitution wasn't ratified until 1788, and George Washington was not President in 1789. Prior to that, very few powers had actually been relinquished by the colonies/states. 1776 is the year the Declaration of Independence was signed by the Continental Congress of the United Colonies. It's worth noting that George Washington was Commander in Chief of the Continental Army during that period.

You'll find that distressingly few Americans actually know their history, and think everything happened in that one year, rather than evolving over decades.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2019, 04:47:34 am by Nusa »
 
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Offline tooki

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Re: Impact of US government spending impasse
« Reply #93 on: January 14, 2019, 04:58:21 am »
The United States isn't a democracy. It's a representative republic.

A true democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what is for supper.

Hence why the Founding Fathers gave us the electoral college.

Unfortunately, many young people these days do not understand these concepts, as history is no longer being taught in public school systems.
If you read the history then you'd know that the electoral college was a bad compromise when it was installed. An improvement would be that the votes of the electoral college would be representative for the votes of the people. Currently a candidate which gets more than 50% of the votes gets all the members of the electoral college for a certain state.
Wrong!!  Some states apportion their Electoral College votes based on the percentage of votes each candidate receives.
And that’s not exactly true, either! In Maine and Nebraska, it goes by districts, not percentage of votes in the whole state.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Impact of US government spending impasse
« Reply #94 on: January 14, 2019, 05:19:32 am »
The United States isn't a democracy. It's a representative republic.

A true democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what is for supper.

Hence why the Founding Fathers gave us the electoral college.

Unfortunately, many young people these days do not understand these concepts, as history is no longer being taught in public school systems.
If you read the history then you'd know that the electoral college was a bad compromise when it was installed. An improvement would be that the votes of the electoral college would be representative for the votes of the people. Currently a candidate which gets more than 50% of the votes gets all the members of the electoral college for a certain state.
Wrong!!  Some states apportion their Electoral College votes based on the percentage of votes each candidate receives.
Some is far from all. And there are so few that it appearantly isn't worth mentioning in an explaination of the US presidential elections. And it still doesn't solve the problem that a president can block laws like what is happening now.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Online nctnico

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Re: Impact of US government spending impasse
« Reply #95 on: January 14, 2019, 05:22:24 am »
The main problem with the political systems in the third world is not that they don't have a good political system, it is that they have a culture which no political system can make successful. When you have a culture of corruption, not respecting the system, trying to take advantage of it, then no system is going to work.

We need to learn to cooperate more and try to work with the system we each have.
No. We should fix systems which are broken. But that will take time (decades if not generations).
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online CatalinaWOW

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Re: Impact of US government spending impasse
« Reply #96 on: January 14, 2019, 06:36:51 am »
People who advocate for one system or another of government seem to miss the fact that no system yet invented cannot be abused or broken.  There is certainly a strong argument that the US is not operating well at the moment, but I see no valid argument that a change of systems will permanently or even temporarily fix the problems.

Many of the current problems have been encountered before, and thus far in the longer term things have worked out.  But as all prospectuses say, "Past performance is not a guarantee of future results."
 
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Online nctnico

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Re: Impact of US government spending impasse
« Reply #97 on: January 14, 2019, 06:56:57 am »
People who advocate for one system or another of government seem to miss the fact that no system yet invented cannot be abused or broken.  There is certainly a strong argument that the US is not operating well at the moment, but I see no valid argument that a change of systems will permanently or even temporarily fix the problems.
I don't think you can argue the fact a president can shut down part of the government for his own pet-project is a good thing. That is something which should be fixed!

In the Netherlands -for example- the political system itself is constantly revised/modernised. Until about a decade ago the king of queen would lead the formation of a new cabinet (similar to the US congress). At some point the queen refused to include a right-nut-wing party as a possibility to become part of the majority fraction to lead the government. That incident has lead to a change so the king or queen no longer takes the lead to form a new cabinet.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline Richard Crowley

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Re: Impact of US government spending impasse
« Reply #98 on: January 14, 2019, 07:27:48 am »
I don't think you can argue the fact a president can shut down part of the government for his own pet-project is a good thing.

It is not a "pet-project" It has been a problem for many decades. Both Democrats and Republicans have campaigned for decent border controls and proper immigration processes for years and years.  The current exercise is simply a political football and "government theatre" aided and abetted by the entertainment-based "news media" in this country.  Ignore the trolls and they will get bored and go away. 

I think the government shutdown is a good thing.


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Offline Nusa

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Re: Impact of US government spending impasse
« Reply #99 on: January 14, 2019, 07:34:00 am »
I don't think you can argue the fact a president can shut down part of the government for his own pet-project is a good thing.
I won't make such an argument, but I think you'll find a number of people who will, at least so far. The mechanism to override the president directly exists, but it's a rather high bar to cross (67/100 senators and 290/435 congressmen).

There's also a mechanism to remove the president from office entirely, called impeachment. That takes fewer people, but is also less likely to happen: 218/435 congressmen to start the process, followed by 67/100 senators to convict.

There are alternate mechanisms under the 25th amendment that requires the Vice President and the majority of the Presidents hand-picked cabinet to turn on him and declare him unfit. Also very unlikely to happen.

But if the current situation continues long enough, and Trump refuses to budge, one of those might happen eventually. The pressure is going to be enormous the longer this goes on. It's not just the 800K people directly affected...it's millions of direct dependants, contracters, employees of contracters, and maybe 10s of millions of indirect dependents on services/programs that have been suspended.

So the situation isn't hopeless, since there really are checks on Presidential power, but it may have to get worse before it gets bad enough for them to be invoked.
 


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