Impact of US government spending impasse

[apis]

We are born into a social context that we have literally no control over and then we have to try to cope as best we can. On top of that follows what is probably a Gaussian distribution of good or bad luck. Some people are going to have a bad start and bad luck, it's inevitable. You can use your smarts to try and improve your odds, but most things in life are just out of our control.

You could even say that those who are idiots were just unlucky. It's not like they choose to be stupid. But clearly, there are lots of rich and stupid people around so I'm not convinced there is a strong correlation at all.

[raptor1956]

I find it amusing that someone can think it's OK for an employer (any employer) to not pay you on time and think it's your fault if you don't have savings to cope with it.

You conveniently ignore the fact the affected employees are made whole with full back pay, effectively giving them a "free" vacation.

We've had too many of these shutdowns since the mid 70's and it is now the norm.  The federal workers are a bargaining chip and the folks doing the bargaining don't have to worry about their pay being withheld.  On the question of saving enough for a rainy day ... that sounds great but life throws lots of curve balls that can't be planned or budgeted.  So a flood destroyed your home and insurance will only cover  part of the cost -- there goes every penny of your 6 months cushion and them some.  Your 4 year old car just went out of warranty and wouldn't you know that's when the transmission would die -- there goes you 6 months cushion.  You son just got excepted to a good university when you's expected him to go to community college and now you need to drop twenty-large just for starters -- there goes you 6 months cushion and then some.

I guess we can spend all evening fabricating all sorts of hypothetical sob stories in an attempt to justify people's poor financial management practices.

Yeah, getting cancer isn't merely bad luck, its your fault and, well, lets call that a sob story.  You are what's wrong with this world -- there, I said it!


Brian

[cdev]

If we could only get the people we elect to work for us, instead of for lobbyists, we would have a government of by and for the people. But we don't now. Nor do most of us know just how bad it sometimes is now.

But at the same time, lots of people are doing their best and still working for us.

All the civil servants deserve to be paid. And having given up pay to work in civil service they deserve to get paid on time.

At the same time, if its found that legislators are only pretending to legislate for those that elected them, they should repay the money they made during that time.

[Mr. Scram]

You conveniently ignore the fact the affected employees are made whole with full back pay, effectively giving them a "free" vacation.

I guess we can spend all evening fabricating all sorts of hypothetical sob stories in an attempt to justify people's poor financial management practices.

Free vacation? You mean they don't have to process the backlog when they come back? You'd think shutdowns would be much more popular.

[Mr. Scram]

We've had too many of these shutdowns since the mid 70's and it is now the norm.  The federal workers are a bargaining chip and the folks doing the bargaining don't have to worry about their pay being withheld.  On the question of saving enough for a rainy day ... that sounds great but life throws lots of curve balls that can't be planned or budgeted.  So a flood destroyed your home and insurance will only cover  part of the cost -- there goes every penny of your 6 months cushion and them some.  Your 4 year old car just went out of warranty and wouldn't you know that's when the transmission would die -- there goes you 6 months cushion.  You son just got excepted to a good university when you's expected him to go to community college and now you need to drop twenty-large just for starters -- there goes you 6 months cushion and then some.

There is a political world-view that blames individuals for problems beyond their control because they have a social Darwinstic idea that when bad things happen the people deserve it.  Compassion is for pussies I guess...


Brian

Part of the problem seems to be that Americans have been indoctrinated to fear communism and socialism so successfully during the Cold War that anything which even remotely reminds people of it is still distrusted and often avoided at all costs. Even if the actual mechanisms involved are implemented successfully across various nations, which can hardly be described as communist or even very socialist. This seems to cause other issues too, because how can you be a coherent society if you don't take care of each other at some level. It just ends up being a bunch or people living alongside each other.

[maginnovision]

We've had too many of these shutdowns since the mid 70's and it is now the norm.  The federal workers are a bargaining chip and the folks doing the bargaining don't have to worry about their pay being withheld.  On the question of saving enough for a rainy day ... that sounds great but life throws lots of curve balls that can't be planned or budgeted.  So a flood destroyed your home and insurance will only cover  part of the cost -- there goes every penny of your 6 months cushion and them some.  Your 4 year old car just went out of warranty and wouldn't you know that's when the transmission would die -- there goes you 6 months cushion.  You son just got excepted to a good university when you's expected him to go to community college and now you need to drop twenty-large just for starters -- there goes you 6 months cushion and then some.

There is a political world-view that blames individuals for problems beyond their control because they have a social Darwinstic idea that when bad things happen the people deserve it.  Compassion is for pussies I guess...


Brian

Part of the problem seems to be that Americans have been indoctrinated to fear communism and socialism so successfully during the Cold War that anything which even remotely reminds people of it is still distrusted and often avoided at all costs. Even if the actual mechanisms involved are implemented successfully across various nations, which can hardly be described as communist or even very socialist. This seems to cause other issues too, because how can you be a coherent society if you don't take care of each other at some level. It just ends up being a bunch or people living alongside each other.

Well we have an enormous number of charities and typically people belonging to a religion can also get help from the community that way, along with various government programs that exist. Paying 50% of money made to taxes already and having health insurance quadruple seems like enough to me(not everyone may be in this position but I am). Socialism and communism are rejected because america was founded on limiting the government and its interference in our daily lives. Socialism and communism are the opposite. As if our government isn't inefficient enough.

[cdev]

Americans do take care of one another. What's happened is trade agreements have taken away the ability of our government to make many decision it previously could (if in the future we elected a totally different government than today, one that wasn't captured, especially) also, lots of other things, like market access and jobs, if they affect trade in services, may be regulated by WTO or other trade bodies, not by our own government. They do this so that people cant impact policy. To tie their own hands.



This is why public education is being privatized everywhere around the world. Water and other services too.

agreements have been set up that do an end run around voters and give away huge chunks of policy. They don't have the choice to do it any other way unless they wanted to tell the truth, and what would they say? "We traded away your health care and jobs and futures, for 'efficiency gains' and low show think tank jobs?" "It just doesnt make sense to educate our kids any more!"

Arrgh..

Thats why making services 'tradable' in 1995 and then not telling people for it for 23 years (to date) was a very big mistake. Now when people, experts, who understand it try to explain it to government bodies in the US, they have to explain to them first that its not a conspiracy theory! That its real!



Here, read what Maine encountered when they tried to set up an alternative health insurer for people who could not afford health insurance through commercial vendors. Especially to what the deputy USTR said to their query.

http://www.maine.gov/legis/opla/ctpchlthcaresub.pdf


This is good too http://members.iinet.net.au/~jenks/Sanders.html

[vtwin@cox.net]

Free vacation? You mean they don't have to process the backlog when they come back? You'd think shutdowns would be much more popular.

Several of my closest friends are enjoying their free vacation as I type.

As for the "backlog", rest assured... they will continue to work at their designated 'government bureaucrat' labor pace, and management will hire temps to "catch up" on the backlog. Assuming, of course, the existing employees do not want paid overtime to work on the backlog themselves.

[beanflying]

Mr McConnell needs to put the petulant child over his knee and give him a good legal spanking to teach him his place as 'one' of your three branches of government!

override of a veto - The process by which each chamber of Congress votes on a bill vetoed by the President. To pass a bill over the president's objections requires a two-thirds vote in each Chamber. Historically, Congress has overridden fewer than ten percent of all presidential vetoes.

Attempted Blackmail and extortion would be a Crime in the real world. This is not OK it is totally Rubbish built on lies.

[gnavigator1007]

This thread is getting political and likely to get locked real fast. I only clicked on it hoping to see some specific examples of the shutdown's impact on the field of electronics or at least broader science. I did not click on this thread to read about how smart, successful people that barely work but already have plenty of money are completely lacking empathy for others less fortunate. I've got zero interest in the failures of socialism or communism to take root in the US or the reasons for those failures. Surely, somebody has some other examples aside from the NIST website in the original post. Can anyone here discuss any impacts on the private sector or research (electronics related please)? I know this is the general chat section, but this kind of stuff really brings the whole place down.

[apis]

I've got zero interest in the failures of socialism or communism to take root in the US or the reasons for those failures.

In the US many seem to think socialism and communism are the same? Much of western europe is run by socialist political parties, and at least modern Scandinavia was founded on socialist principles by the social democratic movement. I don't think we're that much of a failure to be honest. Some even say it's better here in many regards than, for example, the USA. We have very low infant mortality for example. That said, I have no interest in discussing politics either.

[vk6zgo]

Free vacation? You mean they don't have to process the backlog when they come back? You'd think shutdowns would be much more popular.

Several of my closest friends are enjoying their free vacation as I type.

As for the "backlog", rest assured... they will continue to work at their designated 'government bureaucrat' labor pace, and management will hire temps to "catch up" on the backlog. Assuming, of course, the existing employees do not want paid overtime to work on the backlog themselves.

I guess that will make up for the "interest free" loan the govt has had by not paying their wages, & the interest they would have got from the money they have pull out of their bank accounts to live through that lovely " free vacation".(If, indeed, they do have such backup funds).

[vtwin@cox.net]

Mr McConnell needs to put the petulant child over his knee and give him a good legal spanking to teach him his place as 'one' of your three branches of government!

Congress could end the shutdown tomorrow if they so chose, by sending a continuing resolution to the "petulant child" and then overriding his veto.

The fact they haven't even sent him a bill to veto in the first place seems to lay the blame strictly on the feet of Congress, and not the "petulant child".

Was Obammy a "petulant child" when he shut down the government in 2013?

[beanflying]

What was done in past Administrations isn't relevant but what McConnell and the current Senate isn't doing is. The Republican Party will be the ones to suffer for their Trump experiment at the next round unless they stand up to him.

[cdev]

A great many of the changes they seem to be raring to do are going to hurt people. The media isn't covering them at all.

[vtwin@cox.net]

A great many of the changes they seem to be raring to do are going to hurt people. The media isn't covering them at all.

The "media" (here in Amerika, at least) is simply the propaganda arm of the Democrat National Committee. It has long since given up any pretense of objectivity when 'reporting' 'the news' (two terms I use extremely tongue-in-cheek).

[Mr. Scram]

The "media" (here in Amerika, at least) is simply the propaganda arm of the Democrat National Committee. It has long since given up any pretense of objectivity when 'reporting' 'the news' (two terms I use extremely tongue-in-cheek).

Fox is a propaganda arm of the Democrat National Committee?

[maginnovision]

The "media" (here in Amerika, at least) is simply the propaganda arm of the Democrat National Committee. It has long since given up any pretense of objectivity when 'reporting' 'the news' (two terms I use extremely tongue-in-cheek).

Fox is a propaganda arm of the Democrat National Committee?

I think he means cnn, msnbc, nbc, cbs, wapo, vox, buzzfeed and the times.

[beanflying]

For a laugh I have been reading some of the YouTube comments on Fox 'News' videos CNN and the others aren't much better either.

Goebbels would be truly proud "If you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it, and you will even come to believe it yourself."

[maginnovision]

For a laugh I have been reading some of the YouTube comments on Fox 'News' videos CNN and the others aren't much better either.

Goebbels would be truly proud "If you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it, and you will even come to believe it yourself."

Yea, relying on youtube comments for average peoples opinions is like relying on one news source though.

[beanflying]

Unfortunately the USA's 'news' has become so polarized to one side or another is has become a modern version of 'The Big Lie' and both sides are telling their version of it. Somewhere in the middle is a better and more rational 'truth'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_lie

[james_s]

I find it amusing that someone can think it's OK for an employer (any employer) to not pay you on time and think it's your fault if you don't have savings to cope with it.

But they do get all the money, just not on time. It's not an ideal situation but it's part of the job, and if it's not something you are comfortable dealing with then it may not be the sort of job you should be looking at. Many of them do pay quite well though, and overall job security is good. I'd gladly deal with an occasional shutdown rather than the feast or famine cycle that occurs in the trades for example. During building booms tradesmen are raking in the cash, but during a slowdown they may face months of no work. Same if you are self employed, you may get a big contract or have to spend time developing a product before you can generate sales and get paid.

Anyway, if you take a job where a slow period or shutdown is a possibility and you do not account for this in your financial planning then yes it is your fault if you find yourself short on money. Managing your funds and planning for negative events is part of being an adult.

[CatalinaWOW]

These situations have been going on for a long time.  There is a Dicken's quote paraphrased as "Income 20 pounds, expenses 21 pounds and every day is misery and woe, income 20 pounds, expenses 19 pounds and each day is a joy".

People have been living beyond there means for a long time. 

One thing that irritates me:  In private industry if you don't do your job you are let go, sometimes immediately, sometimes not.  But the politicians, whose job it is to create and pass a budget don't do it.  Haven't done it for years.  Even created a whole new calendar (the fiscal year) to give themselves more time and still fail.  But we, their employers, keep rehiring them.  Incumbents win the vast majority of the time.  Those voting for these folks always explain that their representative is one of the good ones, that it is all of those other ones who are causing the problem.

If we aren't bright enough to put an end to this nonsense, we have no one but ourselves to blame.

[maginnovision]

These situations have been going on for a long time.  There is a Dicken's quote paraphrased as "Income 20 pounds, expenses 21 pounds and every day is misery and woe, income 20 pounds, expenses 19 pounds and each day is a joy".

People have been living beyond there means for a long time. 

One thing that irritates me:  In private industry if you don't do your job you are let go, sometimes immediately, sometimes not.  But the politicians, whose job it is to create and pass a budget don't do it.  Haven't done it for years.  Even created a whole new calendar (the fiscal year) to give themselves more time and still fail.  But we, their employers, keep rehiring them.  Incumbents win the vast majority of the time.  Those voting for these folks always explain that their representative is one of the good ones, that it is all of those other ones who are causing the problem.

If we aren't bright enough to put an end to this nonsense, we have no one but ourselves to blame.

That's exactly what the bill put forward twice now to put term limits on senators and congress people is for. Limit lobbyist potential, keep these shows from being put on and keep people focused on getting things done. I think it's a great idea. Stop recycling people who do the same things over and over.

[tooki]

I've got zero interest in the failures of socialism or communism to take root in the US or the reasons for those failures.

In the US many seem to think socialism and communism are the same? Much of western europe is run by socialist political parties, and at least modern Scandinavia was founded on socialist principles by the social democratic movement. I don't think we're that much of a failure to be honest. Some even say it's better here in many regards than, for example, the USA. We have very low infant mortality for example. That said, I have no interest in discussing politics either.

(American living in Europe here.)

In a nutshell, to the vast majority of Americans, “socialism” and “communism” are simply two curse words that are “bad, mmkay?” without having even the tiniest idea what they mean. And they certainly do not understand the distinction between “socialism” and “social democracy”.

What is extremely telling is that in polls/surveys, Americans overwhelmingly support socialistic/social democratic government programs and policies, as long as the wording doesn’t include the “S word”. As soon as something gets associated with one of those curse words, it’s done. :/

Honestly, I find it very difficult to discuss public policy with most Americans, because most simply cannot let go of their preconceptions, and so you end up discussing in circles... Not a good foundation upon which to move your country forward, IMHO.