Impact of US government spending impasse

[nctnico]

I don't think you can argue the fact a president can shut down part of the government for his own pet-project is a good thing.

It is not a "pet-project" It has been a problem for many decades. Both Democrats and Republicans have campaigned for decent border controls and proper immigration processes for years and years.

It is a pet-project because a wall won't alter the root cause of the immigration problems. Trump just wants to have something build you can see from space.

[cdev]

Our agricultural subsidies and cheap exports are making it impossible for farmers in developing countries to farm, while there is no way they can earn a living any other way. So its profoundly destabilizing the developing world as well as making it possible for aggro business to literally steal entire countries from its poor inhabitants..  Since many of them were born outside of hospitals many lack documentation, they don't exist. Bribery is a common way of buying land, local officials paid off, people who have lived in villages for generations shot at and have to leave as their homes and gardens and fruit trees are bulldozed to make way for progress.

[apis]

He only seems to want to fulfill the promise he made to the voters. Maybe he should never have promised that but ultimately the problem is the voters that (re)elected him.

[beanflying]

I don't think you can argue the fact a president can shut down part of the government for his own pet-project is a good thing.

It is not a "pet-project" It has been a problem for many decades. Both Democrats and Republicans have campaigned for decent border controls and proper immigration processes for years and years.  The current exercise is simply a political football and "government theatre" aided and abetted by the entertainment-based "news media" in this country.  Ignore the trolls and they will get bored and go away. 

I think the government shutdown is a good thing.

Causing collateral damage to border security by a shutdown over border security is the act of a dill! He is causing real pain to your fellow citizens and the industry he claims to care about and to the external view of your country.

FACT Your biggest single cause of illegal immigrants is the result of people overstaying 'legal' visas. Show me a wall that will stop this?

The wall is Trump bluster and BS propaganda and is all about Trump holding his breath until he gets his way like a spoiled brat. As I said way back in this thread time for McConnell to grow some balls.

[apis]

As I said way back in this thread time for McConnell to grow some balls.

Trump character assassinates anyone who stands up to him, no one want's to end like "crooked Hillary". They could try to respond in kind, but I'm guessing the republican party wants to avoid a public poo flinging fight with a republican president.

[CatalinaWOW]

People who advocate for one system or another of government seem to miss the fact that no system yet invented cannot be abused or broken.  There is certainly a strong argument that the US is not operating well at the moment, but I see no valid argument that a change of systems will permanently or even temporarily fix the problems.

I don't think you can argue the fact a president can shut down part of the government for his own pet-project is a good thing. That is something which should be fixed!

In the Netherlands -for example- the political system itself is constantly revised/modernised. Until about a decade ago the king of queen would lead the formation of a new cabinet (similar to the US congress). At some point the queen refused to include a right-nut-wing party as a possibility to become part of the majority fraction to lead the government. That incident has lead to a change so the king or queen no longer takes the lead to form a new cabinet.

I have not argued that it is a good thing.  And a widely missed point is  that it takes two to play this game.  Democrats have gone all in saying a wall has no value, and they will not spend a dime towards walls.  Walls by themselves do not solve education problems.  They can be part of an overall security solution.  The cost of the proposed wall is far less than the economic damage this argument is causing.

Both sides in this dispute are saying that their view of the world is more important than keeping the government running.  Both sides are trying to paint the other as the guilty party.  One side is losing the PR battle because he has never throttled his public statements, leaving all sorts of crap out their.  The other side has many of the same flaws, but is better at putting makeup on.
 
Neither side is giving us adult government. 

I don't see how a change of government form is going to prevent politicians of either color from behaving like spoiled two year olds.  This kind of behavior has been seen all over the world in many government forms.  The only place it doesn't happen is when there is absolute power in a singular leadership (Putin doesn't have these problems.  Someone disagrees and they find themselves jailed or dead.)

[dr.diesel]

         

[james_s]

FACT Your biggest single cause of illegal immigrants is the result of people overstaying 'legal' visas. Show me a wall that will stop this?

That's something that's obvious to anyone with half a brain, but the wall is one of those emotionally driven issues. Also if businesses didn't hire illegal aliens to get cheap exploitable labor, they wouldn't be coming here. On the other side of the fence, the left loves to push useless gun related laws like designating areas to be gun-free zones. As with the wall, it should be obvious that with murder already being about as serious as crimes get, nobody who plans to murder people will be deterred by the fact that it's illegal to take a gun there. In both cases it's useless to try to convince a person that their proposed plan is useless because it was never based on logic in the first place.

But it's a nice tidy problem-solution relationship that makes people feel like they're doing something and people seem to like that.

[beanflying]

        

So by passing spending bills your Senate had already passed so people get paid and government can go on makes it their fault that Trump is an ASS?

[CatalinaWOW]

        

So by passing spending bills your Senate had already passed so people get paid and government can go on makes it their fault that Trump is an ASS?

Any battle requires two participants.  Trump's assholery doesn't change the fact that those government workers could be on the job if  funding bills including the wall were passed.  So each side is doing this on "principal".  Each side has the power to fund the government.

One of the problems in US politics today is that they have become so polarized that if key players on one side or the other says something the other side immediately digs in and says that it is the most horrible thing ever.  I feel that if Pelosi proposed a 8 Billion dollar wall the Republicans would immediately excoriate it as the worst idea since prohibition.  Same thing the other way.

[raptor1956]

I don't think you can argue the fact a president can shut down part of the government for his own pet-project is a good thing.

It is not a "pet-project" It has been a problem for many decades. Both Democrats and Republicans have campaigned for decent border controls and proper immigration processes for years and years.

It is a pet-project because a wall won't alter the root cause of the immigration problems. Trump just wants to have something build you can see from space.

Precisely!  In 1960 Edward R. Murrow produced a documentary about what was then known as "migrants" and in the nearly 60 years since then the same factors that drew migrants, or immigrants, to the USA is the promise of a better job then they can get where they come from.  Back in 1960 the draw was almost exclusively agriculture, but over the decades other industries figured that if agriculture could get away with using sub-minimum wage labor so could they and the use of immigrants spread to landscaping then into the wider range on construction related jobs.  Janitorial services are now dominated by such labor and the mechanism companies use to insulate themselves from the illegal activities they engage in is much the same.  When Wal*Mart hires a company to clean there floors they don't hire the workers they hire the company and if that company uses undocumented workers toiling at sub-minimum wages Wal*Mart is in the clear because they've hired the cutout that separates them. 

Ultimately, if US businesses want sub-minimum wage labor, and they do, and governments fail to stop them, and they do, then this will continue no matter high high the wall is.  Using sub-minimum wage labor has always been illegal, but if a law isn't enforced it isn't a law at all.


Brian

[cdev]

Sorry to say the real underlying issue underneath a lot of whats happening is not what they say it is. It is cheap labor but its legal cheap labor for corporations, cheap high skill labor. Starting out with high skill professional jobs.

The dispute is pending in WTO court (I think its DS-503)

A group of LDC countries led by India are arguing that the developed countries are cheating them out of the benefits of services agreements by not opening up their services as they say the original Uruguay Round agreement requires. Using laws of various kinds to discriminate against their getting what they are owed in jobs. One of the issues is market access, if they are cheaper they say they have an entitlement to do the work, based on their advantage of having low wages. We shouldn't be allowed to tell them how much they must pay their own workers, in their own money, into their bank accounts overseas, they say.

In essence they accuse us of what amounts to 'hoarding' jobs that they claim being signatory to certain agreements entitles them to. Also of setting up new plurilateral and regional agreements outside of the WTO which they claim are designed to keep them out and cheat them of what is due them as WTO members.

 (80% of a modern economy is services) that the 1995 agreement was supposed to put into play.

See "The Scope of GATS and its Obligations"  https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2324078

[beanflying]

Any battle requires two participants.  Trump's assholery doesn't change the fact that those government workers could be on the job if  funding bills including the wall were passed.  So each side is doing this on "principal".  Each side has the power to fund the government.

Much as this is considered normal in politics tying one bill to another to get a resolution "your side wants" would be seen as criminal extortion and blackmail in the real world, bills of supply in particular should remain outside this linking as they go to day to day running of the government.

As an outsider I look forward to 2020 and seeing the Republicans reaping what they have sown by indulging the Trump experiment.

[Nusa]

As an insider, I'm rather looking forward to that myself.

[raptor1956]

Yes, the higher paid work has not been as heavily effected as low skill work, but as you point out that could change.  Certainly the leisure class is 100% on board with anything that cuts the amount the goes to the workers as that means more for them.  And, the trade deals going back to slick willy and before and since only make the prospect of it greater.


Brian

[raptor1956]

Any battle requires two participants.  Trump's assholery doesn't change the fact that those government workers could be on the job if  funding bills including the wall were passed.  So each side is doing this on "principal".  Each side has the power to fund the government.

Much as this is considered normal in politics tying one bill to another to get a resolution "your side wants" would be seen as criminal extortion and blackmail in the real world, bills of supply in particular should remain outside this linking as they go to day to day running of the government.

As an outsider I look forward to 2020 and seeing the Republicans reaping what they have sown by indulging the Trump experiment.

Sadly, although there's a great deal of heat in the differences between the two parties on issues related to race and sex and immigration, on most of the overarching economic issues there isn't a dimes worth of difference between them.  That wasn't always the case of course and prior to slick willy the Dems could be counted on to act with the interests of the working class at least occasionally, but from 1993 onward the Democratic party is in bed with many of the same overlapping set of wealthy interests that run the Republican party.  The banking industry and Wall Street as well as tech companies often side with the Dems on social issues but promote the same trade and economic policies the other side does.  Basically there's consensus on most economic issues but they differ on the question of sexual orientation and other social and personal rights factors.  Indeed, having these 'hot button' topics serves as a distraction to keep the people focused on social issues and not looking at the shafting they're getting economically.


Brian

[cdev]

There is a good explanation on I think page 8 or 9 of this paper on NAFTA of some of the basic concepts at play. http://www.law.harvard.edu/programs/lwp/nafta.pdf

[JoeO]

It amazes me how people who don't live in this country are so certain about what is happening here. 

No one has mentioned the opioid deaths occurring here in the US due to the flood of drugs coming across the border.  90% come through Mexico.

I hope Trump keeps the shutdown going until we get a wall.  I think he will because he doesn't care if he gets re-elected or not.

The fake news coming out of the Daily Mail, CNN and the Guardian are the problem.  Garbage, all of it.

[Mr. Scram]

It amazes me how people who don't live in this country are so certain about what is happening here. 

No one has mentioned the opioid deaths occurring here in the US due to the flood of drugs coming across the border.  90% come through Mexico.

I hope Trump keeps the shutdown going until we get a wall.  I think he will because he doesn't care if he gets re-elected or not.

The fake news coming out of the Daily Mail, CNN and the Guardian are the problem.  Garbage, all of it.

Mexico isn't to blame for opioid deaths. Those are a massive problem, but are the result of a number of failed policies within the US. Ending the "war on drugs" and implementing more effective measures would make a much bigger difference than any wall could every do.

[CatalinaWOW]

Any battle requires two participants.  Trump's assholery doesn't change the fact that those government workers could be on the job if  funding bills including the wall were passed.  So each side is doing this on "principal".  Each side has the power to fund the government.

Much as this is considered normal in politics tying one bill to another to get a resolution "your side wants" would be seen as criminal extortion and blackmail in the real world, bills of supply in particular should remain outside this linking as they go to day to day running of the government.

As an outsider I look forward to 2020 and seeing the Republicans reaping what they have sown by indulging the Trump experiment.

I too will be glad to see Trump gone.  I didn't vote for him or his primary opponent in 2016.  Unfortunately I don't see 2020 as bringing a new golden age in politics.  We don't seem to be oversupplied with good thoughtful leaders who look beyond victory for their own team.

[cdev]

A captured state is 'criminogenic' and it and good government are mutually incompatible.

[beanflying]

It amazes me how people who don't live in this country are so certain about what is happening here. 

No one has mentioned the opioid deaths occurring here in the US due to the flood of drugs coming across the border.  90% come through Mexico.

I hope Trump keeps the shutdown going until we get a wall.  I think he will because he doesn't care if he gets re-elected or not.

The fake news coming out of the Daily Mail, CNN and the Guardian are the problem.  Garbage, all of it.

It amazes me to that some in the USA feel they know how to solve the worlds problems with use of arms too but that keeps happening so what is your point only the USA can talk about the issues of other countries and the world should remain silent about yours? This is a discussion on an international forum so you will just have to put up with some input from others. Sitting outside the problem gives us a different perspective with a lot less propaganda. Fake News, Propaganda and outright lies fueling this are straight out of the Autocrats playbook.

Build a wall and it will come be sea or flown over the top. Until we (the world) start addressing the reasons for drug dependence and the associated deaths from it there will always be a flow and a mechanism to make it happen will always be found. Minimise the user base (that doesn't mean lock them up either) and the need for supply is reduced, go after the source and there is nothing to supply.

[Nusa]

It amazes me how people who don't live in this country are so certain about what is happening here. 

No one has mentioned the opioid deaths occurring here in the US due to the flood of drugs coming across the border.  90% come through Mexico.

I hope Trump keeps the shutdown going until we get a wall.  I think he will because he doesn't care if he gets re-elected or not.

The fake news coming out of the Daily Mail, CNN and the Guardian are the problem.  Garbage, all of it.

More wall (the places where it's actually cost-effective have already been built) will have virtually no effect on smuggling. Nearly all of it comes through land, sea, and air ports of entry. In the case of opoids, most of it comes in via overseas packages, hidden among other goods. The other major source are legitimate prescriptions, redirected, stolen or sold to other people.

Trump may or may not care about the next election, but there are plenty of senators and congressmen that do.

Never mind that the attrition in the border patrol will skyrocket if this continues. Not only can they not hire anyone right now, many of those working who can't pay bills or feed the family will be forced to quit and find jobs that actually have paychecks. The longer this continues, the worse border security will get.

[Bassman59]

He only seems to want to fulfill the promise he made to the voters. Maybe he should never have promised that but ultimately the problem is the voters that (re)elected him.

His "promise," this wall, was a mnemonic device meant to keep him from going off-topic during his campaign. His advisors needed something really simple to focus on, because he has the attention span of a goldfish and the intellectual capacity of a gnat.

[xrunner]

... because he has the attention span of a goldfish and the intellectual capacity of a gnat.

I agree, but really, and experts have chimed in on this, really what he wants is constant attention - like a 5 year old. He's a baby that needs constant attention and can never take any criticism.  He could care less about what he is fighting for, unless it gets solved. Then it's back to something else that garners more attention to himself.