Impact of US government spending impasse

[james_s]

So backing up to the original topic, I went on two commercial flights this week which involves dealing with TSA. There were warnings about long waits but in both locations things were actually moving along faster than I've experienced since before 9/11. TSA was running on a skeleton crew, with the whole process being expedited. Didn't have to take my shoes off, didn't have to stop in the naked body scanner, the theatrical aspect was virtually gone. Just put my bag through the xray machine and walk through a metal detector almost like old times. Given the fact that since its inception TSA has never caught even one terrorist and that the locked cockpit doors which are one of the few actual improvements to security to come out of all this were unaffected, so far the government shutdown has actually benefited me. I would be all in favor of permanently cutting off funding to TSA and abolishing the whole organization or funding it just enough to keep things at the current far more efficient level without all the needless groping and theater. Any intelligent person who flies often can see that it's almost all for show and there are many holes in the process which are easily exploited.

Locked cockpit doors combined with everyone now realizing that there are people out there wanting to hijack an aircraft to use it as a weapon rather than as leverage for some political cause makes it virtually impossible for another 9/11 to occur. We should be looking to prevent the next type of attack somebody thinks up rather than reactively trying to prevent those that have already happened.

[BrianHG]

So backing up to the original topic, I went on two commercial flights this week which involves dealing with TSA. There were warnings about long waits but in both locations things were actually moving along faster than I've experienced since before 9/11.

I'm waiting to see what happens when the air traffic controllers disappear...

[james_s]

That would be a bigger mess for sure, I'm not advocating continuing the shutdown by any means but it did provide a nice relief from the TSA stupidity.

[Simon]

Don't worry the Canadians are buying them pizza

[Nusa]

So backing up to the original topic, I went on two commercial flights this week which involves dealing with TSA. There were warnings about long waits but in both locations things were actually moving along faster than I've experienced since before 9/11.

I'm waiting to see what happens when the air traffic controllers disappear...

There's history to look at for this one, assuming someone in the Trump administration is aware of history:
In 1981 Air Traffic Controllers went on strike over contracts, which ended with Ronald Reagan firing over 11000 of them, with a lifetime ban on rehiring (Clinton reversed that in 1993, but only about 800 ever came back). Which of course didn't solve the controller problem...all the supervisors had to return to active duty, everyone left worked long hours, and a lot of military controllers were installed at civilian airports for years while massive numbers of new hires were trained for the job.

So one option for Trump would be to install a bunch of paid(!) military controllers to fill operational needs. Which wouldn't solve the shutdown, but it would keep things running.

[BrianHG]

So one option for Trump would be to install a bunch of paid(!) military controllers to fill operational needs. Which wouldn't solve the shutdown, but it would keep things running.

I hope Trump is this knowledgeable?  I think the existing flight controllers would be wise to strategist making things as difficult as possible to help keep their jobs, yet make their pain be felt if they observe this history.

[cdev]

They should prioritize spending by statistical likelihood of it impacting real people. So what that would mean is lots more money to find solutions that address big threats to lots of people, like eliminating as many pollutants as possible, finding causes of cancers, getting dangerous chemicals out of products, improving the quality of drinking water and finding better forms of power generation, and investing more money in resources that promote lifelong learning, eliminating various financial frauds and white collar crime, also making it possible for people to have more financial and  job security, more public transportation, better roads and improving the quality of life. It should be legal to spend that miney here in the US creating jobs for Americans, we shouldn't be forced to outsource or offshore that spending if another nations corporations paid their workers just two or three dollars a day, they should not get the work simply because they are cheaper. Instead tax money should be able to create green jobs for unemployed Americans. Now that is FTA-illegal! The US should not have brought the suit in the WTO against India's homegrown solar energy program, that we won, two years ago, that made it clear helping your own nationals get jobs with your own tax money, was prohibited behavior. (Unless its a secret type program, then it seems it may be clear that a national security exemption applies) Otherwise, it may be up for grabs and because of high minimum wages in developed countries the work is likely to go elsewhere. Maybe this is why we see so little infrastructure spending?

I'm not saying we shouldn't have a military but resorting to the military should be a last resort, when diplomacy has failed, and a real emergency looms. It also should be there in emergencies, that should be one of its primary uses, helping save lives in extreme, emergency situations. For example, in huge storms, earthquakes, etc. they should be able to help.

We should never be working behind the scenes to further goals that are contradictory to the public interest or to the values we stand for. That should be forbidden in the Constitution and any deals struck that cancel out the benefits of our democracy should automatically be void in advance. This would mean that trade agreement provisions which cancel out gains made in banking and health care regulation, that currently threaten to erase literally all the gains made in the last 21 years would not be hanging over us. So called "ratchet" "standstill" and "rollback" caused by WTO provisions would be eliminated.

This would mean that as it was in the past, corporations and foreign investors would be encouraged to buy commercial "all risk" insurance to indemnify them instead of being able to sanction our government for behaving responsibly by putting the peoples needs above multinational corporations.

No protests could be lodged by other countries simply because a law changed policy in any way unless it caused a crime against people's lives. It would be recognized again that governments function was to govern, in a balanced manner, not simply guard the interests of MNCs.

ISDS and similar trojan horse clauses and torts like 'indirect expropriation' should cease to exist. When candidates run for office, they should actually be able to make promises that could be implemented. If they promise that XYZ would happen or would not happen it would not be a joke on the nation that could never come true.

Then we could fix innumerable things that cannot be fixed today because of hidden constraints that virtually nobody knows exist.

Similarly we shouldn't be able to force bad policy changes on other nations. We should respect other nation's voters wishes as well as respect our own. This would be a big change as that has not been the case for more than two decades.

If we did these things, there would be no need for huge dramatic distractions as people could read budgets secure in the knowledge that what was said was actually what was meant, and not trying to ascertain what was happening behind the smoke and mirrors.

[james_s]

Air traffic control is one of those things I think should be given absolutely top priority, since without it our whole economy would likely grind to a halt. ATC is every bit as important as our military, I almost think it is something that should just be handled by the military or something of similar nature.

[Mr. Scram]

Air traffic control is one of those things I think should be given absolutely top priority, since without it our whole economy would likely grind to a halt. ATC is every bit as important as our military, I almost think it is something that should just be handled by the military or something of similar nature.

They do that in some other countries, but comes with its own set of difficulties and risks. Messing with a working system this vital seems irresponsible anyway. New people aren't going to be as good right away, no matter how trained.

[james_s]

Of course it comes with problems, I'm not saying we should just switch over all at once, but it seems like a good way to set it up in the first place and something that we could gradually transition to. Right now they could figure out a way to pay them the same way other essential branches of the government are funded.

[beanflying]

The best way to fund your government is put a pair of balls on McConnell but only if you can find him first

Using 'contingencies' is not a solution it's a poor workaround.

[Marco]

Airlines could get together and give traffic controllers zero percent loans, sure a tiny percentage would be delinquent when they get their backpay, but nowhere near enough to justify losses from disruption.

[mrpackethead]

Airlines could get together and give traffic controllers zero per cent loans, sure a tiny percentage would be delinquent when they get their back pay, but nowhere near enough to justify losses from disruption.

Thats an interesting idea.    Maybe the airlines could jsut take over and privately operate the air space.

[Nusa]

Consequences were becoming ever more serious, and everyone could see it. The most likely possibilities were that Trump would cave or the Senate would cave and overrule the president. There were signs that the latter was going to happen before long, so Trump caved first. Crisis averted, at least for the next three weeks. Somehow, I don't think even Trump will try this particular leverage tactic again, now that he's found out it's a no-win scenario.

[Macbeth]

TSA is nothing but airport security theatrics. Very costly, but making some large government lobbyist contractors $ billions at the expense of everyone else on the planet.

I hope Trump keeps up with refusing to pay these shitty federal bureaucratic non-jobbers and they go and fuck off and try and find a real job at McBurgers instead. It seems the USA is running so much better without them.  Yeehaw!

(Of course they are all getting paid and are getting a massive free holiday in reality. Only a fucking smackhead would be getting government money "furloughed" not able to cope for a few months by using their savings or credit)

[Nusa]

You're showing your ignorance (acceptable, since you are not in the USA) combined with a high level of venom from whatever source (not so acceptable).

TSA is nothing but airport security theatrics. Very costly, but making some large government lobbyist contractors $ billions at the expense of everyone else on the planet.

I agree it's largely theatrics. However, it exists, it makes some people feel safer, and it causes long lines at airports.

If the TSA staff were contractors, rather than federal employees, they a) would not be forced to work during the shutdown and b) would not get paid for monies lost during the shutdown.

While we're on the subject, there are LOTS of actual federal contractors who have had to lay off staff during the last month, as they hadn't even been paid for recent work completed prior to the shutdown. This is a larger group than the federal employees affected, and they were NOT getting a free vacation, no matter how you look at it.

However, the critical issue at airports wasn't the TSA, it was the inadequate staffing levels of controllers at FAA TRACONs. They found themselves unable to handle the normal level of traffic and had to slow down flights with ground stops this morning. These are the guys who make sure nobody flies into anyone else by accident.

[vk6zgo]

TSA is nothing but airport security theatrics. Very costly, but making some large government lobbyist contractors $ billions at the expense of everyone else on the planet.

I hope Trump keeps up with refusing to pay these shitty federal bureaucratic non-jobbers and they go and fuck off and try and find a real job at McBurgers instead. It seems the USA is running so much better without them.  Yeehaw!

(Of course they are all getting paid and are getting a massive free holiday in reality. Only a fucking smackhead would be getting government money "furloughed" not able to cope for a few months by using their savings or credit)

When I worked for the (Oz) government, my answer to people who "got in my face" about being a "bludging Government worker", was :-

"How did you get your job?"

Their reply was usually:-

"I saw it advertised, & I applied for it."

Me:
"So did I".

There may be countries where you have to be members of some particular "in" group" to get a government job, but in Australia, (at least, back in those days) it was not the case

In the late 1980s there was a lot of "public servant" bashing in the media.
The public image of govt employees  was of someone who sat around being pampered by "tea ladies" like "Sir Humphrey" in
"Yes, Minister"----a fictional character, for Pete's sake!

Telecom Aust started cutting staff, so those of us who were left had to do everybody else's job.
After a while, buzzing back & forth to various TV sites like a demented taxi driver got a bit old, so I "pulled the plug" & went to the Private Sector.

Would you believe it, they had real tea ladies, & the Company paid for the tea, milk,& sugar!

Various folk muttered darkly:-
"You'll really have to work hard, now, not like the govt".

When I remarked that it seemed just about the same, the comment was:-
"This is just the 'honeymoon' period, it'll kick in soon!"

Well, ten years later, when I left that job, it still hadn't "kicked in"!

I was never a "smackhead", but I never had a job that paid well enough that, with a family & a mortgage,* I could go without pay for thirty odd days, without having to look for another job.

You may be fortunate, & have a lot of savings, but that is not a universal experience.
Most people are only a few pays away from the "cardboard box on the side of the road".

* I did, indeed take a furlough, back in the early 1970s, when I was single with no responsibilities, but that was planned, & budgeted for.

[tooki]

TSA is nothing but airport security theatrics. Very costly, but making some large government lobbyist contractors $ billions at the expense of everyone else on the planet.

TSA are federal employees. Before 9/11, airport security was done by contractors, which was later prohibited and the TSA created to do their job instead.

So as much as corruption, ahem, “lobbying” is responsible for many ills, airport security is, if anything, a counterexample.

[james_s]

TSA was created because in the chaos after 9/11 the public demanded that the government "do something" to prevent another attack, so it exists as a public show to make people feel safer. The fact that TSA has failed nearly every publicized test, never caught even one terrorist and cost billions of dollars while hassling millions of people does not sway some people's opinion of their lack of value. I was impressed by just how much more smoothly the whole operation seemed to run during the shutdown. I was expecting chaos and long delays but it was quite the opposite.

There are numerous holes in the system making it obvious that it's just theater. If one wanted to get around the limitation on the amount of liquid one can carry on board there's nothing stopping 20 people buying the cheapest tickets they can find to whatever destination, passing through security and then pooling all the stuff each individual carried through and assembling whatever nefarious device in any number of locations within the terminal. If one wanted a weapon, you can't carry knives on board but you can carry sharp scissors which are easily disassembled into two knives. Or fly in from one of those little podunk airports that doesn't have the body scanners, the last time I returned from a small town it occurred to me that I was inside the secured area in SeaTac having bypassed the whole security show with a 40 minute flight from Bend. For those with more budget, international flights also bypass TSA.

Before anyone flips out that I'm providing terrorists with ideas, I'll just point out that this is all really obvious stuff that any schmuck who has flown somewhere would notice if they were looking for exploits.

[nctnico]

Before anyone flips out that I'm providing terrorists with ideas, I'll just point out that this is all really obvious stuff that any schmuck who has flown somewhere would notice if they were looking for exploits.

I think you are over estimating terrorists here. Imagine you'd want to find security holes like these in a foreign country you have never visited before. How would you find them?

[apis]

Terrorism is for the most part committed by people living in or at lest being very familiar with the country in which they commit the crime. Take for example the IRA in Northern Ireland, ETA, the 2011 Norway attack, or even the 9/11 hijackers.

[james_s]

Before anyone flips out that I'm providing terrorists with ideas, I'll just point out that this is all really obvious stuff that any schmuck who has flown somewhere would notice if they were looking for exploits.

I think you are over estimating terrorists here. Imagine you'd want to find security holes like these in a foreign country you have never visited before. How would you find them?

Easy, you would spend time in that country, you would have operatives run test operations, you would do your homework. You are greatly underestimating terrorists here. How many terrorist attacks can you list that were committed by people who had never visited the country they were attacking? Operations like Al Qaida and ISIS are very well funded and well organized with operatives living in numerous countries. The 9/11 hijackers that created this whole mess had spent years living and working in the US. They were educated and intelligent, well funded and took the time to research and meticulously plan what unfortunately was an extremely successful attack accomplishing everything they could have hoped for and more. As a result we spent countless billions of dollars, became mired in multiple expensive wars that are still ongoing, gave up freedoms and have changed our lifestyle in the name of being safer. People too easily forget that terrorism isn't about killing people, it's about making them afraid. They succeeded, they won. Terrorists are very rarely isolated individuals acting alone on a shoestring budget against a nation they know little about.

[nctnico]

Before anyone flips out that I'm providing terrorists with ideas, I'll just point out that this is all really obvious stuff that any schmuck who has flown somewhere would notice if they were looking for exploits.

I think you are over estimating terrorists here. Imagine you'd want to find security holes like these in a foreign country you have never visited before. How would you find them?

Easy, you would spend time in that country, you would have operatives run test operations, you would do your homework. You are greatly underestimating terrorists here. How many terrorist attacks can you list that were committed by people who had never visited the country they were attacking? Operations like Al Qaida and ISIS are very well funded and well organized with operatives living in numerous countries.

So we agree: it takes a massive coordinated effort and funding so chances are high that people get caught before they can execute their devious plans. It is not just a single person flying in at the morning to execute a terrorist attack in the afternoon.

[james_s]

Chances are hopefully high that they get caught, but here's the thing, they don't get caught by TSA, they get caught by good old fashioned police and intelligence work. Indeed numerous plots have been foiled since 9/11, the number of those where TSA played a part in foiling them? Zero. As I've already stated, TSA is security theater, the real security goes on behind the scenes, mostly not in the airports.

[Mr. Scram]

Chances are hopefully high that they get caught, but here's the thing, they don't get caught by TSA, they get caught by good old fashioned police and intelligence work. Indeed numerous plots have been foiled since 9/11, the number of those where TSA played a part in foiling them? Zero. As I've already stated, TSA is security theater, the real security goes on behind the scenes, mostly not in the airports.

There's a fair bit of evidence the number of plots foiled isn't actually as large as portrayed, but who can resist appearing more effective and worthwhile?