Intern / part timer for Startup (Bay area)

[EEVblog]

I work as an intern/undergrad engineer and get £15kGBP per year.

Interesting.
My EEVblog jobs pay more than that in equiv AUD

[EEVblog]

This job posting is sketchy to me not because it doesn't pay or does not pay well, but because it demands high-end skills ("be able to work from 'napkin sketch' to working hardware") from an intern. The fact that they appear to be making hardware but are lacking a "hardware engineer" is also suspicious. It could all be legit; the writeup could be worse than the reality, but the writeup /is/ indeed sketchy.

The red flag for me went up they said they don't have a hardware engineer, and then mentioned in tern/student.
That's likely not going to end well for the startup, or the student.

[EEVblog]

Obviously, the startup has funding. It has contracts. So it is NOT too much to ask them to pay someone for fair work done.

Agreed.
The only time you should be working for free is if you are one of the founders and it's your baby.

[miguelvp]

It gets more complicated,

If you are in a position that has a high pay and high responsibilities I would consult with your HR department about conflict of interests. Working on the side for a startup can have dire consequences even if you are not aware of it, no matter if the startup preceded your current employment.

The trend has been for a while that you can't even be part of the board of directors of previous companies or being involved in any way regardless if they are not direct competitors. So being part owner of an external entity is grounds for dismissal if you contribute your time to it in any shape or form. You don't have to let go ownership, but you can't contribute to it.

So if you want to do a startup on the side and work for a well established corporation at the same time, make sure it's ok with them. If on the other hand, your company doesn't have such provisions then jump into it if it's worth to you.

But any decent size company will have those provisions so mind your steps.

[EEVblog]

  why does stuff like this always end up misunderstood, twisted, contorted and completely pulled out of context.

Probably because you said the job was for someone else. It's not, it's for a company you founded.
Probably because you implied the company has no hardware engineer at all and you were asking for an intern/student to seemingly "do it all"
Glad you've cleared all that up.

[AndyC_772]

This is the second recent job posting thread that generated criticism of the offered compensation and the job requirements. That's not a good way to attract job postings here.

It's a learning experience for us all. Hopefully, in time, some 'best practice' guidelines for posting job ads will emerge.

I'm coming round to the belief that job threads should be paid-for, made sticky for a period of time, and locked. If you want to discuss a job, PM the owner. If you want to discuss it in public, then go right ahead and start another thread.

[EEVblog]

It's a learning experience for us all. Hopefully, in time, some 'best practice' guidelines for posting job ads will emerge.

Quite frankly there was nothing wrong with my job ad, apart from me being too honest and saying the job probably doesn't pay much. i.e. don't get your hopes up that it's engineer level wages for a student/hobbyist level position.
Of course every Tom, Dick and Harry took that to meant I was paying practically nothing
Of course if I had put nothing for the salary then I would have been criticised for that. And if I did put the salary then it would have been analysed and compared to death. It's unwinnable.

[zapta]

Quite frankly there was nothing wrong with my job ad, apart from me being too honest and saying the job probably doesn't pay much. i.e. don't get your hopes up that it's engineer level wages for a student/hobbyist level position.
Of course every Tom, Dick and Harry took that to meant I was paying practically nothing

Andy c also had a job posting recently that got criticized for the education requirements. It's a tough crowd.

[nctnico]

Well this forum (partly) evolves around tearing things down. That seems to include job-ads 

[free_electron]

  why does stuff like this always end up misunderstood, twisted, contorted and completely pulled out of context.

Probably because you said the job was for someone else. It's not, it's for a company you founded.
Probably because you implied the company has no hardware engineer at all and you were asking for an intern/student to seemingly "do it all"
Glad you've cleared all that up.

To further clarify : we have hardware engineers . Two of em in fact. What we need is a Third one that will be more of a lab technician.
And yes, you are considered one of the founders. There is a lump of shares set aside to hand out as we attract more people. The volume depends on the position so dont expect it to be 1/n where n is the number of people in the company. That is not how it works. The shares are also contingent on staying for a few years. They 'vest'. We had one guy pull out after a few months cause he went to work somewhere where there was a conflict of interest so he forfaited...

There are risks. We may call it quits at one point, someone may leapfrog us . All you will be out of pocket is time. That is the nature of a startup.

If you can't live with that , don't apply.

We've had interns from local universities. They joined under a different method : they needed to do an internship anyway and we paid their techshop membership which they like so they can use the machinery for their project work.

So , you can come in as an intern , or you can come in as a 'partner'/'founder'/'watchamacallit'

[ncoonrod14]

My university requires all students to report their wages from any internships related to their field of study taken while enrolled so they can report statistics. Last academic year the average Electrical Engineering major made (including non-paid internships) $22.23/hr and this is in an area with one of the lowest costs of living in the States. Of course if there were statistics on strictly internships with startups the wages would be much lower, but nevertheless if industry is paying $22/hr to students I can't imagine many students being interested. Not to mention the ones with the skills mentioned who are being headhunted by industries and are likely making more than that average. Maybe that opportunity will be great for someone but I'd be surprised if you filled that position easily.

[nctnico]

One of the problems I see with these kind of startups is that as a technical person you have no influence on how well your work is marketed. The amount of time spend on development versus marketing is like 100:1 so the marketing guy only looses a little while the people developing the product loose a lot more. I quit getting sucked into these kind of arrangements a long time ago. People with nice ideas often try to lure technical people into building stuff for free so they can just sit on their ass while others do the work and take the risk. Caveat emptor!

[deephaven]

It always gets me how negative people are when this sort of thing comes up. To me, this is an amazing opportunity for someone. If I lived in the Bay Area (and was a bit younger!), I would be sending Free Electron a PM right now suggesting we meet up for a drink and have a chat. You have a choice, either work for an established company and get paid the going rate, or take a chance and join something exciting. If it all falls flat, well you've used up some of your time - it was a risk and you knew that. But if it takes off, you are now part of something which will be potentially very lucrative. Either way, for an electronics engineer, you've had an interesting time. With FE's credentials, I would say that the venture has a very good chance of being a success so the odds are very much in your favour!

[Yago]

I would have loved a chance like this when I was a young 'un.

Good luck with it FE, hope you find the right candidate, and hope you make a fortune in your venture.

[free_electron]

One of the problems I see with these kind of startups is that as a technical person you have no influence on how well your work is marketed. The amount of time spend on development versus marketing is like 100:1 so the marketing guy only looses a little while the people developing the product loose a lot more.

If you perceive that as a problem : do your own startup !
It is exactly the reason you mentioned we launched ours. You work in a large corporation and are a 'number' with no say in the direction or roadmap of the company. if it goes sour you get laid off. if it goes extremely well you still won't get a bonus or pay raise , only the top boss gets another jaguar and another tennis court or swimming pool..

[nctnico]

One of the problems I see with these kind of startups is that as a technical person you have no influence on how well your work is marketed. The amount of time spend on development versus marketing is like 100:1 so the marketing guy only looses a little while the people developing the product loose a lot more.

If you perceive that as a problem : do your own startup !
It is exactly the reason you mentioned we launched ours. You work in a large corporation and are a 'number' with no say in the direction or roadmap of the company. if it goes sour you get laid off. if it goes extremely well you still won't get a bonus or pay raise , only the top boss gets another jaguar and another tennis court or swimming pool..

I've been down the 'startup road' before and learned that a good startup has enough money to offer people a decent pay so they can hire top-notch engineers in order to get the product on the market ASAP. If your startup is appearantly missing seed money then other people (not sitting on a pink cloud) appearantly have a hard time believing it will succeed.

As an engineer you'll just have to live with the fact other people make more money from your work than you do. Engineers are typically bad at turning an idea into a commercial success. OTOH a good engineer always has a job.

[zapta]

If you perceive that as a problem : do your own startup !

Very well said. People are complaining because others don't create good enough jobs for them.

I was involved in startups and know how tough it is. When I drive in Silicon Valley and see those high tech corporation buildings (large and small) I have a lot of appreciation for the people that created those companies and the huge payrolls needed to populate those building.

Wish you well with your endeavor.

[george graves]

Of course every Tom, Dick and Harry took that to meant I was paying practically nothing

It sure sounded that way! 

If this start up wants Mommy and Daddy to pay the rent, that's fine.  But the employee they are likely to get might not be what they really want.  Not all the time, but sometimes that type of person will be use to having things handed to them on a silver platter.  Not always the funnest person to work around.

[MacAttak]

What you are describing sounds more like "moonlighting for a startup" to me, which is quite common. Not only in SV but also over here in the "silicon valley of the southeast".

Startups are a great experience, even if they fail. IMO everyone who is in the younger years of their life should participate in at least one or two. The experience is worth far more than any of the stock or options (that almost always end up worthless). I've been involved in three startup situations before, and consulted for dozens more. Much easier to do when you are young, single, no kids, no big bills, etc.

But it's not an internship. I've done that too - and it really can help a student break into a field that values experience as much (or more) than a diploma. Internship is just a way to give someone valuable field experience without having to pay market rates for them. Often at the very same company that they hope to work for as a normal hire after completing school.

Startup moonlighting would typically not include any pay at first - in exchange for partial ownership - while interning does pay (poorly) and offers no ownership.


My biggest concern if I was an interested person would be how quickly it seems like the previous people have been "fired" for making mistakes. In your example the guy ordered the wrong part from digikey, wasting 250 LEDs. Even if they were a dollar each, you're saying you fired someone for a $250 mistake that easily could be made by anybody. That's petty, and I doubt I'd want to put my time on the line knowing that if I sneeze wrong I'd likely get fired with nothing to show for it.

[free_electron]

What you are describing sounds more like "moonlighting for a startup" to me, which is quite common. Not only in SV but also over here in the "silicon valley of the southeast".

Startups are a great experience, even if they fail. IMO everyone who is in the younger years of their life should participate in at least one or two. The experience is worth far more than any of the stock or options (that almost always end up worthless). I've been involved in three startup situations before, and consulted for dozens more. Much easier to do when you are young, single, no kids, no big bills, etc.

But it's not an internship. I've done that too - and it really can help a student break into a field that values experience as much (or more) than a diploma. Internship is just a way to give someone valuable field experience without having to pay market rates for them. Often at the very same company that they hope to work for as a normal hire after completing school.

Startup moonlighting would typically not include any pay at first - in exchange for partial ownership - while interning does pay (poorly) and offers no ownership.


My biggest concern if I was an interested person would be how quickly it seems like the previous people have been "fired" for making mistakes. In your example the guy ordered the wrong part from digikey, wasting 250 LEDs. Even if they were a dollar each, you're saying you fired someone for a $250 mistake that easily could be made by anybody. That's petty, and I doubt I'd want to put my time on the line knowing that if I sneeze wrong I'd likely get fired with nothing to show for it.

We didn't really 'fire' that guy . we thanked him for services at the end of the internship and that was it.  and the total cost of the 'mistake' was closer like 1K$ ... becasue those little strips were unusable to be loaded on the pick and place. it was led's, cap's , resistors, the whole bom was ordered as strips of 10 or digireels ( a bloody digireel costs 7$ in 'handling' so ordering 25 digireels with 100 resistors each costs 25 times more than the whole reel of 5000 to begin with !

you don't need a lot of braincells to order parts and figure out what is most cost-effective. if you can't do that : you shouldn't be playing with electronic components...

[nctnico]

Maybe you should have told him that as part of a work instruction. Not telling a total newby how to do a certain job is -to say the least- not smart. I managed a whole bunch of interns in the past but I always gave them guidance on how to do their work to avoid these kind of money wasting mistakes. The worst that can happen is that they order stuff on their own (edit: without going through the procurement department) or on the wrong budget. But that is easy to fix.

[EEVblog]

Of course every Tom, Dick and Harry took that to meant I was paying practically nothing

It sure sounded that way! 

It sounded whatever you wanted it to sound like.
Maybe I should have use wank words like "salary commensurate with competing positions". Of course many people would have taken that to mean "pays bugger-all".

[Howardlong]

We didn't really 'fire' that guy . we thanked him for services at the end of the internship and that was it.  and the total cost of the 'mistake' was closer like 1K$ ... becasue those little strips were unusable to be loaded on the pick and place. it was led's, cap's , resistors, the whole bom was ordered as strips of 10 or digireels ( a bloody digireel costs 7$ in 'handling' so ordering 25 digireels with 100 resistors each costs 25 times more than the whole reel of 5000 to begin with !

Did you consider using a third party re-reeling service? I have to do that for one of the devices I use that's only available in tubes. Certainly doesn't cost $1k, more like 1/10th of that.

[EEVblog]

Did you consider using a third party re-reeling service? I have to do that for one of the devices I use that's only available in tubes. Certainly doesn't cost $1k, more like 1/10th of that.

My assembler here in Oz has a new machine that can use small strips like that, no need for re-reeling.

[Howardlong]

By the way, I may have missed it, and apologies if I did, but what was the rationale behind saying "I'm helping out a friend of mine" when it would appear it's actually for the OP's startup? I am sure there is a rational explanation, it's just eluding me at the moment.

(By the way Dave I know you're busy, but I've sent you a couple of PMs recently to your Eevblog username on the forum that might be to your advantage, not sure if you've seen them).