Author Topic: Is everything x86 OR ARM? Will we ever have another type?  (Read 7028 times)

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Offline IanB

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Re: Is everything x86 OR ARM? Will we ever have another type?
« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2018, 03:58:37 am »
In a world where Linux has more apps than Windows does, almost nobody would use Windows.

Sorry, but I don't think so. Over 95% of the population has no clue about computers and would be lost in the middle of the ocean if confronted with Linux. As much as I dislike Windows 10 and where it has gone, I understand that it caters to the majority of computer users. I can cope OK with Windows 7 as a "techie". Most non-technical people I know find Windows 7 to baffling and frustrating.
 
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Online NiHaoMike

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Re: Is everything x86 OR ARM? Will we ever have another type?
« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2018, 04:16:58 am »
Android and ChromeOS have achieved mainstream status years ago. And Windows on ARM has failed over and over because there are next to no apps available.
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Offline james_s

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Re: Is everything x86 OR ARM? Will we ever have another type?
« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2018, 04:20:23 am »
In a world where Linux has more apps than Windows does, almost nobody would use Windows.

Sorry, but I don't think so. Over 95% of the population has no clue about computers and would be lost in the middle of the ocean if confronted with Linux. As much as I dislike Windows 10 and where it has gone, I understand that it caters to the majority of computer users. I can cope OK with Windows 7 as a "techie". Most non-technical people I know find Windows 7 to baffling and frustrating.

But he's not talking about the Windows 10 you're talking about, he's talking about the Windows 10 that is effectively Windows RT, ie it's called "Windows", it resembles Windows, but it doesn't run any of the existing x86 software, which is the whole reason anyone uses Windows. Naturally Microsoft has confused the hell out of everybody by offering multiple products called "Windows" that are not at all the same thing.
 
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Offline IanB

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Re: Is everything x86 OR ARM? Will we ever have another type?
« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2018, 05:32:38 am »
But he's not talking about the Windows 10 you're talking about, he's talking about the Windows 10 that is effectively Windows RT, ie it's called "Windows", it resembles Windows, but it doesn't run any of the existing x86 software, which is the whole reason anyone uses Windows. Naturally Microsoft has confused the hell out of everybody by offering multiple products called "Windows" that are not at all the same thing.

But this comment has nothing to do with what NiHaoMike said, or what I responded to.

NiHaoMike said, "If Linux had more apps than Windows, then few people would use Windows."

So we are talking about Linux. And it doesn't matter how many apps Linux has, people still won't use it. Because running x86 software isn't the reason people use Windows. Having lots of apps isn't the reason people use Windows either. If you think that's why people use Windows you also have missed the point entirely.
 

Offline glarsson

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Re: Is everything x86 OR ARM? Will we ever have another type?
« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2018, 06:25:38 am »
People do use Linux. A lot. Why else do they sell so many Android devices?
 

Offline senso

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Re: Is everything x86 OR ARM? Will we ever have another type?
« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2018, 09:16:14 am »
Comparing Android to even ubuntu is a bit twisted...
 

Offline glarsson

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Re: Is everything x86 OR ARM? Will we ever have another type?
« Reply #31 on: September 25, 2018, 09:47:48 am »
Both are Linux...
 

Offline hans

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Re: Is everything x86 OR ARM? Will we ever have another type?
« Reply #32 on: September 25, 2018, 04:53:13 pm »
However, after many years of CPU generations, people noticed two groups started to appear: RISC and CISC processors.

Erm, no, nobody 'noticed two groups'. RISC computers were deliberately designed and designated that way. It wasn't some naming of an emergent phenomenon but a specific attempt to design computers around the idea that a Reduced (or simplified) Instruction Set would prove more efficient. The two pioneers were the RISC project at Berkeley run by David Patterson (SPARC and SOAR were direct descendents of this) and the MIPS project at Stanford run by John L. Hennessy, which is obviously the progenitor of the commercial MIPS architecture.

The respective heads of the two competing projects have since written books on computer architecture together which goes to show that competition and cooperation are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Design and Implementation of RISC I. Séquin and Patterson (paper)
Unfortunate wording. There are ofcourse more ways to build a computer, like a single instruction machine, but in general RISC and CISC were "competing" architecture foundations.
There were genuine benefits to x86 and perhaps CISC at first. For example the variable sized instruction size saved memory, which is not as scarce as it was back in the day.


Actually, Intel has gone 1 step further and placed a bet on VLIW processors with the Itanium series. They abandoned them a few years ago.


Hummm.   So what explains that we just bought a bunch of systems with IA64 CPUs?
They introduced the "last series" in march 2017, with no upcoming generation planned. They may sell these chips for the upcoming years to support these business and enterprise solutions. But without any upgrade path, you could very well speak of "abandoned".

Mostly now yeah. But:
- Apple and other manufacturers (with support from Microsoft) are looking into adopting ARM platforms for their laptops. Some of the newer "Smartphone" chips should reportedly compete with Intel Celeron's and Pentium's, which is plenty for a lot of people
Windows that doesn't run existing Windows apps pretty much eliminates the only reason to use Windows as opposed to Linux. In a world where Linux has more apps than Windows does, almost nobody would use Windows. And that's the situation with ARM.
Quantity is only a number that doesn't say much. It's always about the specific applications.
For example, if you do PCB design for a living then odds are high you're still on Windows. If you need more advanced tools than Eagle or KiCad can offer, and you can't afford Cadence stuff, then you're basically out of luck on the Linux platform (unless you want to hassle with VM's, Wine, or whatever).
Similarly a lot of people only need a webbrowser, email, calendar, office suite and perhaps be able to play the odd game. Some of these even can run in the browser; look at ChromeBooks.
MS tried Windows RT a few years back, and I think it flopped because who wants to deal with double versions and licensing for e.g. Office or other programs. If an ecosystem really becomes seamless across x86 and ARM I think you'll see more people stepping over.
 

Offline BeaminTopic starter

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Re: Is everything x86 OR ARM? Will we ever have another type?
« Reply #33 on: September 25, 2018, 10:35:59 pm »
Both are Linux...


Yes but to the average person who uses android they would say "what is Linux?". All people see is what desk top/home screen looks like and how the top file/edit/view tab is set up. The innerworkings might as well be magic to them. I think Linux would be more popular with average people if there was one common flavor that 90% of people would use. As it is to get a program working it depends on which one with things working on somethings better then others I have found.
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Offline james_s

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Re: Is everything x86 OR ARM? Will we ever have another type?
« Reply #34 on: September 25, 2018, 11:23:33 pm »
NiHaoMike said, "If Linux had more apps than Windows, then few people would use Windows."

So we are talking about Linux. And it doesn't matter how many apps Linux has, people still won't use it. Because running x86 software isn't the reason people use Windows. Having lots of apps isn't the reason people use Windows either. If you think that's why people use Windows you also have missed the point entirely.

Well the software is the reason everyone I know runs Windows. The people who don't need any legacy Windows software are the ones getting by these days with mobile devices, which are virtually all either a variation of Linux (Android) or BSD (iOS). There is still some momentum in that virtually all new computers come with Windows installed, but the attempt to phase out "legacy" Win32 software has played a substantial part in the plummeting sales of Windows PCs, and it's exactly why Windows RT flopped like a lead balloon. It was called Windows, it looked like Windows, but it couldn't run the enormous library of Windows software, so people soundly rejected it. Clearly people run Windows because they need it to run the software they use.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Is everything x86 OR ARM? Will we ever have another type?
« Reply #35 on: September 25, 2018, 11:38:59 pm »
Well the software is the reason everyone I know runs Windows. The people who don't need any legacy Windows software are the ones getting by these days with mobile devices, which are virtually all either a variation of Linux (Android) or BSD (iOS). There is still some momentum in that virtually all new computers come with Windows installed, but the attempt to phase out "legacy" Win32 software has played a substantial part in the plummeting sales of Windows PCs, and it's exactly why Windows RT flopped like a lead balloon. It was called Windows, it looked like Windows, but it couldn't run the enormous library of Windows software, so people soundly rejected it. Clearly people run Windows because they need it to run the software they use.
The new ARM version of Windows runs x86 programs, albeit emulated and a bit slower. Most programs won't mind as they're not that performance hungry. Microsoft has essentially fixed that problem. They've historically aimed for very long term legacy support from an enterprise perspective and they've been rewarded for it.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Is everything x86 OR ARM? Will we ever have another type?
« Reply #36 on: September 25, 2018, 11:56:22 pm »
I think they're too late to the party, they shipped RT years before there was any sort of usable x86 emulation and it immediately got a reputation as being crap because it couldn't run any real software.

Even so, once you're going with emulation there is little point to be chained to Windows, Linux or MacOS can run x86 software in emulation too. Hardly anyone has ever run Windows because they like dealing with Microsoft and/or really like it, they run it because it's required by the software they use. For example I'm indirectly involved in two businesses that are entirely Windows based. One is a machine shop that runs Windows because the CAD software that works with the CNC machines is Windows only. The other is a veterinary clinic because the practice management and digital x-ray software (and drivers) is Windows only. It's not because they have some attachment to Windows, it's because they need it to run the software they depend on to run the business.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Is everything x86 OR ARM? Will we ever have another type?
« Reply #37 on: September 26, 2018, 12:04:35 am »
I think they're too late to the party, they shipped RT years before there was any sort of usable x86 emulation and it immediately got a reputation as being crap because it couldn't run any real software.

Even so, once you're going with emulation there is little point to be chained to Windows, Linux or MacOS can run x86 software in emulation too. Hardly anyone has ever run Windows because they like dealing with Microsoft and/or really like it, they run it because it's required by the software they use. For example I'm indirectly involved in two businesses that are entirely Windows based. One is a machine shop that runs Windows because the CAD software that works with the CNC machines is Windows only. The other is a veterinary clinic because the practice management and digital x-ray software (and drivers) is Windows only. It's not because they have some attachment to Windows, it's because they need it to run the software they depend on to run the business.
RT is dead. It's gone. What they're doing now is an entirely new incarnation.

Why people would want to stay with Windows? Because they now get ARM benefits while still having access to their massive software library in what's more or less a seamless experience. That's a world apart from "other stuff runs emulations too".
 

Offline rjp

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Re: Is everything x86 OR ARM? Will we ever have another type?
« Reply #38 on: September 26, 2018, 12:09:15 am »
Whilst power users will not agree, we are fast approaching a time in which the web browser is the operating system.

This is why tablets and chromeos have a place in the modern computing world and for alot of people, thats all they will ever need.

This will give completely new operating systems and platforms  a chance to succeed, aslong as their first priority is getting a modern web browser running nicely.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Is everything x86 OR ARM? Will we ever have another type?
« Reply #39 on: September 26, 2018, 04:42:38 am »
RT is dead. It's gone. What they're doing now is an entirely new incarnation.

Why people would want to stay with Windows? Because they now get ARM benefits while still having access to their massive software library in what's more or less a seamless experience. That's a world apart from "other stuff runs emulations too".

If it doesn't seamlessly run "legacy" x86 software then it's just RT under another name. Just like Win10 is just Windows 8.3 despite them overcompensating and skipping a version number to show how new and different it is.

And again, the reason people run Windows is because they want to use software that requires Windows. Whether that's run natively on a x86 processor or under some form of emulation, it's still all about the software (and hardware drivers). If their original attempt at completely deprecating so-called legacy x86 software in favor of "modern" apps had succeeded, they would have succeeded in killing Windows entirely. The huge library of x86 software is almost entirely the reason for Windows to exist. People who just want to surf the web and use browser apps don't care what operating system they have, hence the explosion in popularity of non-Windows tablets. "Windows" on phones and ARM tablets failed spectacularly because despite the name, it wasn't Windows.
 

Offline glarsson

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Re: Is everything x86 OR ARM? Will we ever have another type?
« Reply #40 on: September 26, 2018, 06:31:01 am »
I think Linux would be more popular with average people if there was one common flavor that 90% of people would use.
The variations between the Linux distributions are probably smaller than the differences between Windows XP, 7, 8 and 10. That didn't stop the popularity of Windows. There have never been any "common flavor" of any software that 90% of people use.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Is everything x86 OR ARM? Will we ever have another type?
« Reply #41 on: September 26, 2018, 06:37:39 am »
That's because Windows has long had one very big thing going for it, an absolutely enormous library of existing software, coupled with rather good backward compatibility. A large amount of software written for Windows 2000 will still run today on Windows 10. Windows is the defacto standard, if a vendor is going to produce a piece of traditional software for one operating system, they'll almost always target Windows. If there's one piece of Windows-only software that a person needs, they'll almost always choose Windows as the OS.

Some really innovative operating systems have come and gone over the years, and almost without fail their demise has been due to a lack of software. An operating system is absolutely useless if it won't run *all* of the software you need to use.
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: Is everything x86 OR ARM? Will we ever have another type?
« Reply #42 on: September 26, 2018, 01:01:58 pm »
Some really innovative operating systems have come and gone over the years, and almost without fail their demise has been due to a lack of software. An operating system is absolutely useless if it won't run *all* of the software you need to use.

That's true if the software you need to use is software you own. You don't want to shell out for it, or a functional equivalent, again if you switch operating systems. But does that hold true in a world where all the vendors are trying to move to the rental model of software as a service? If changing to a new (incompatible) operating system means you have to change software, does it matter so much if you have to cancel one software subscription and start a new subscription to something functionally equivalent as long as you can seamlessly move your data across?
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Offline james_s

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Re: Is everything x86 OR ARM? Will we ever have another type?
« Reply #43 on: September 26, 2018, 06:53:10 pm »
Some really innovative operating systems have come and gone over the years, and almost without fail their demise has been due to a lack of software. An operating system is absolutely useless if it won't run *all* of the software you need to use.

That's true if the software you need to use is software you own. You don't want to shell out for it, or a functional equivalent, again if you switch operating systems. But does that hold true in a world where all the vendors are trying to move to the rental model of software as a service? If changing to a new (incompatible) operating system means you have to change software, does it matter so much if you have to cancel one software subscription and start a new subscription to something functionally equivalent as long as you can seamlessly move your data across?

That depends. Switching from one software to another is not trivial in many cases, licensing aside it requires one to re-learn how to use it, and in most cases translate their data over to the new product. This also assumes that a functionally equivalent option exists for the OS in question. There are a significant number of products out there that are simply not available for Linux. Think serious CAD/CAM/CNC stuff, drafting and architecture, business management software, software made specifically to operate things like sign cutters, CNC routers, printers, digital xray systems, specialized medical equipment, etc. Then you have hardware drivers for much of the above. In most businesses it is one of these items that dictates running Windows. For home users it is typically games, I've lost count the number of people I've heard say they'd switch to Linux except they're a gamer.

Now in many ways this subscription model and the proliferation of browser based apps *has* made the operating system less relevant than ever. It's one reason the PC market is past its peak and shrinking. Many non-power-users can now do everything they need to do using a tablet, Chromebook, or other non-traditional machine. They are not running software that requires Windows, so they are not running Windows, even though there is "Windows" that runs on mobile devices. Ironically Windows Mobile faces the same challenge that non-Windows desktop operating systems face, it doesn't run certain software that people expect to use. If I have a choice between a phone that has 100% of the apps I want, and one that has 50% of the apps I want, the choice is easy.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Is everything x86 OR ARM? Will we ever have another type?
« Reply #44 on: September 27, 2018, 12:13:20 am »
Power users like me loathe browser apps, the average consumer doesn't seem to mind so much though. There's a whole generation of adults now who have never known life without the internet and many are now growing up using tablets and smartphones from a young age. Desktop and laptop PCs are reverting to more of a niche market, as business/productivity tools. People like me will use a traditional PC into the foreseeable future. Whether or not that PC runs Windows really depends on what Microsoft decides to do with Windows. I don't like where they've gone in recent years at all but I keep Win7 as my primary OS because I have a significant amount of software I like that is Windows-only. For work I have a Mac, I'm actually finding it quite nice but the built in non-replaceable(easily) battery, SSD and RAM and lack of standard USB ports is a non-starter for a machine I'm going to spend my own money on. I hate having to carry around a bunch of adapter dongles. The machine is much thinner than it needs to be, and achieves that by leaving out a lot of convenient features.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Is everything x86 OR ARM? Will we ever have another type?
« Reply #45 on: September 27, 2018, 12:32:09 am »
Power users like me loathe browser apps, the average consumer doesn't seem to mind so much though. There's a whole generation of adults now who have never known life without the internet and many are now growing up using tablets and smartphones from a young age. Desktop and laptop PCs are reverting to more of a niche market, as business/productivity tools. People like me will use a traditional PC into the foreseeable future. Whether or not that PC runs Windows really depends on what Microsoft decides to do with Windows. I don't like where they've gone in recent years at all but I keep Win7 as my primary OS because I have a significant amount of software I like that is Windows-only. For work I have a Mac, I'm actually finding it quite nice but the built in non-replaceable(easily) battery, SSD and RAM and lack of standard USB ports is a non-starter for a machine I'm going to spend my own money on. I hate having to carry around a bunch of adapter dongles. The machine is much thinner than it needs to be, and achieves that by leaving out a lot of convenient features.
Average consumers are very cost driven and therefore bear with browser apps, but that doesn't mean they like them. People don't use the junkiest tablets because they enjoy using them, they use them because they're cheap.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Is everything x86 OR ARM? Will we ever have another type?
« Reply #46 on: September 27, 2018, 01:47:02 am »
But he's not talking about the Windows 10 you're talking about, he's talking about the Windows 10 that is effectively Windows RT, ie it's called "Windows", it resembles Windows, but it doesn't run any of the existing x86 software, which is the whole reason anyone uses Windows. Naturally Microsoft has confused the hell out of everybody by offering multiple products called "Windows" that are not at all the same thing.
You're either talking about Windows 10 S or Windows ARM, neither of which are effectively Windows RT. Windows 10 S runs on normal hardware and is upgradable to Windows 10 and Windows 10 ARM runs on mobile hardware but it's x86 capable. I'm not sure why either is confusing, as they're called differently than the regular Windows 10.
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Is everything x86 OR ARM? Will we ever have another type?
« Reply #47 on: September 27, 2018, 02:57:33 am »
Intel x86 architecture has so much legacy, it's been added on to for decades and surely there is an 8088 still stashed inside the i7.
I think ARM will overtake Intel and dethrone that monopoly. Especially since Intel's ATOM processors were a total flop, their one chance to get into phones, tablets, set-top boxes etc. completely bungled and ARM got the turf.

I had a Computing Science course on CPU architectures, and we did a lot of math to calculate the performance of various CPU's. Harvard, von Neumann, cache, pipelining, pre-fetch, bus widths, CISC, RISC etc. It's a lot of fun to calculate that kind of thing but I found it far from reality.
Adding more cores and other CPU modules to improve speed, and increasing clock speeds eventually won out. The compiler's ability to utilize/optimize use of the CISC or RISC op-codes is also a factor.  It kind of settled into memory latency as the bottleneck. Good old 68000 died because of 4 clock cycles/access.

CPU monopolies are disliked by all, so I see ARM having the advantage in being multi-sourced. AMD got to second-source Intel from IBM's demand for that.
 

Online NiHaoMike

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Re: Is everything x86 OR ARM? Will we ever have another type?
« Reply #48 on: September 27, 2018, 04:04:51 am »
Intel x86 architecture has so much legacy, it's been added on to for decades and surely there is an 8088 still stashed inside the i7.
The 8088 is so tiny by modern standards that I wouldn't be the least surprised if there are a few stashed into modern Intel CPUs for low level management purposes. I'm also imagining that it could be possible to design a modern x86 chip as a modernized 386 to allow it to boot 16 bit code, then the big 32/64 bit cores are activated when the chip is switched into that mode, at which point the 386 is repurposed for power management and whatnot.
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Re: Is everything x86 OR ARM? Will we ever have another type?
« Reply #49 on: September 27, 2018, 05:26:07 am »
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