Author Topic: Is fundamental physics dead for the coming generations? (Including my own)  (Read 6891 times)

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Offline LeoTechTopic starter

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So, here is the thing:

I am currently in High School majoring in Math and Physics - I'm in Denmark, so it works a bit different than most of you probably are used to. My complete class is majoring in Physics and Math as well, so the interest in these subjects are understandable pretty high - outside of school as well. 

Unfortunately I'm the only one who "dreams" about becoming an engineer, and the majority of people want to study something fancy like Quantum mechanics, string theory or whatever is all the rage right now.

The problem with this is the fact that most people are no longer interested in fundamental physics like Newtonian Mechanics, Electricity and Magnetism, Oscillation and Waves, etc.
Instead of actually learning these rather fundamental subjects, they jump right onto YouTube and watch some "educational video" of some hot-shot scientist about stuff like String Theory, Quantum Mechanics and so on.

Then in the next physics class here in High School, honors program or whatever, about some fundamental subject they think they know and understand it, because they "understood" the advanced subject, so they start talking pure bullshit about the topic at hand! (Excuse my language, it annoys me as hell) They literally comment on every thing the teacher says or does, and there comments are far, far to often completely incorrect - which is insanely annoying. 

And yes I know, "I am just in High School, so I can't really judge whether or not they talk bullshit". Well that is partly true, when it comes to "fancy" science topics like string theory I can't, but when it comes to basic fundamental mechanics I defenietly can at least at High School level, as I spend my time studying physics as well, but fundamental stuff, such as Newtonian mechanics and electricity, instead of whatever is all the rage right now, so I actually know what is thought in school and understand it - which for me is a pleasure.

This post has been pretty angry, and partly aggressive, but I would like to get your opinion on this problem, as it currently expands far beyond my High School class, and I encounter it everywhere outside of High School in places like honorary science programs and so on.

Many young people engaged in science nowadays no longer take the time to understand the fundamental aspects of physics, but jump right into the "fancy" stuff, believing that they therefore understand anything else. This leads to them talking pure bullshit when it comes to fundamental elements of physics believing that they completely understand it. This drives me, and many others, crazy because they have the feeling that they need to comment on anything the teacher or someone else says, and their comments are simply wrong!

So, I'd like to hear from you what you think about this, does this behavior drive you crazy as well? Do you find it annoying? Or do you don't find it necessary to focus on the fundamentals of physics? 

Any thoughts are appreciatet!

Leo

(I'm terribly sorry for any offensive or angry parts in this post, as I was pretty steamed while writing this - guess why? Secondly, it may be a bit confusing, so feel free to ask for clarification about what I wrote)




High School student with a passion and interest in electronics, both analog and digital!
 

Offline In Vacuo Veritas

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Re: Is fundamental physics dead for the coming generations? (Including my own)
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2018, 03:09:50 pm »
You're in high school. When I was in high school I "dreamed" I wanted to be a character in a William Gibson novel. No one is going to be "string theorist".

I went to school with a math wizard who became a physicist. He's a mental wreck now. The kids that broke into houses and stole TVs, cut classes, and took drugs are all successful people now who own car dealerships, import/export business, etc... while the "smart" people are scraping by on shitty precarious engineering jobs.

So be careful what you wish for.

Print this message out, laminate it, and keep it in your wallet. Read it in thirty years and marvel at my wisdom.
 
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Offline MrW0lf

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Re: Is fundamental physics dead for the coming generations? (Including my own)
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2018, 03:14:38 pm »
Unfortunately I'm the only one who "dreams" about becoming an engineer, and the majority of people want to study something fancy like Quantum mechanics, string theory or whatever is all the rage right now.
...
This post has been pretty angry, and partly aggressive, but I would like to get your opinion on this problem, as it currently expands far beyond my High School class, and I encounter it everywhere outside of High School in places like honorary science programs and so on.

Wait till you learn "fundamentals" good enough to understand there is BS in it too here and there, some things are a bit simplified if you will. Then you will feel true anger because you'll realize that soon there will be nobody to fix things. And why would be there anybody, there is no profit in truth. But there is in propagating for various "feel good" BS so fuzzy headed ones could feel smart while milking [taxpayer] money. Moreover if you try to talk too loud you'll be leveled with ground by fuzzy headed ones because you endangering their profit and comfort zone. So prepare for lonely but honorable journey.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2018, 03:17:26 pm by MrW0lf »
 

Offline tpowell1830

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Re: Is fundamental physics dead for the coming generations? (Including my own)
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2018, 03:22:22 pm »
Hi Leo, I think I understand what you are saying, but let me try.

I think you are saying that the fundamental engineering is very important and you are a bit frustrated hearing from wannabe physicists in your high school who think they know everything, but really don't and try to be a bit snobbish when you try to explain that the fundamental engineering is important too.

Here is my take on where you need to direct your energy and thought processes, although it may sound a little patronizing. You are in high school and most people in high school don't really realize what the world is actually like. When you get to the point that you are working in an actual engineering environment, engineers do not give a thought to what physicists are doing as far as their jobs go. However, as engineers are interested in new technology, they will read technical publications that reveal some new technology that perhaps a physicist has developed. This in no way makes engineers jealous or wish they were physicists, but as practical engineers do, they may sometime scoff at the new tech with great doubt and say show me the numbers. Engineers are very practical like that.

Bottom line, just ignore them and keep focused on what interests you without so much as a negative thought as to what these other guys are saying or doing. If you keep your focus and go forward, soon you will be in the workforce as an engineer and those folks that were doing the talking will either have gone down their path and achieved their hopes of being physicists or not. What matters is that you would have become the engineer that you wanted to be.

Hope this helps...
PEACE===>T
 
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Offline SparkyFX

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Re: Is fundamental physics dead for the coming generations? (Including my own)
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2018, 03:42:19 pm »
Work (not to be mistaken as workplace) is usually what separates people that just talk along from people that can do the work. Just memorizing things heard yesterday is not that big of an achievement in itself, it is helpful and a base to derive an understanding for a topic. Anecdotal knowlegde should also not to be mistaken for an actual practical approach to the problem.

There are many things taught in High School that are de-simplified in higher grades. So better donĀ“t dream about becoming an engineer, but become someone that does engineering work maybe. Being able to connect the right dots in the right moment or at least knowing how to find them is half the rent.
Support your local planet.
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: Is fundamental physics dead for the coming generations? (Including my own)
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2018, 03:51:32 pm »
All I wanted in HS was to go fast and turn left and all I wanted out of HS was me!  I did well but I hated school.  It took several years after HS graduation before I took college seriously.

Fundamental physics (Mechanics) leads to Statics and Dynamics and these two topics are the reasons that building don't fall down.  Kind of important  in the bigger scheme of things. Even physicists need a lab!

Somebody is going to need to engineer things.  Even the physicists don't design the magic machines, engineers do.  The physicist describes what is supposed to happen and the engineer makes it happen (along with a host of technical people - machinists, welders, electricians and even programmers).

There are some fascinating ideas coming out of particle physics but it's going to be a while before I can play with a box full of string theory.  OTOH, I always liked playing with Erector Sets.

Check the truss in the upper right corner of this page and compare to what you learn in Statics:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erector_Set

The EE program had only 2 semesters of Physics but they were my favorite classes.

Will there be enough engineers in the future?  Of course there will!

A Computer Hardware Engineer with a Bachelor's Degree earns about the same as a Physicist with a Doctorate.

https://www.bls.gov/ooh/life-physical-and-social-science/physicists-and-astronomers.htm
https://www.bls.gov/ooh/architecture-and-engineering/computer-hardware-engineers.htm

There are geographic variances in earnings.  You can drill down to individual states and even regions.

None of which applies outside the US but I imagine there are similarities.

It's fun to know things but it is even more fun to make a good living for knowing them.

Oh, BTW, look at the number of jobs in each of the categories and the number of new jobs.  It would seem intuitive to want to sign up for the job that has the most openings.  It's easier to be one of a bigger number.

 

Offline MrW0lf

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Re: Is fundamental physics dead for the coming generations? (Including my own)
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2018, 04:24:51 pm »
Some oldschool physics to cheer up discussion a bit:



Rest of them, will kill a week worth of evenings easily:
https://www.youtube.com/user/dramaticphysics/videos

This one got me hooked on RF:


Did not find peace until this bump was on my screen also... ;)
« Last Edit: September 19, 2018, 05:58:26 pm by MrW0lf »
 
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Offline bsfeechannel

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Re: Is fundamental physics dead for the coming generations? (Including my own)
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2018, 03:37:22 am »
The kids that broke into houses and stole TVs, cut classes, and took drugs are all successful people now who own car dealerships, import/export business, etc... while the "smart" people are scraping by on shitty precarious engineering jobs.

The people that I know of who broke into houses, stole TVs, cut classes and took drugs are in jail. Or dead.

Some of my colleagues in engineering went on to become high executives or businesspeople. Some decided to dedicate themselves to an academic life. None of them, though, scraped by on precarious jobs. Fortunately. Not that I know.

But, of course, YMMV.

Unfortunately I'm the only one who "dreams" about becoming an engineer, and the majority of people want to study something fancy like Quantum mechanics, string theory or whatever is all the rage right now.

The problem with this is the fact that most people are no longer interested in fundamental physics like Newtonian Mechanics, Electricity and Magnetism, Oscillation and Waves, etc.

Madmen open ways which, later, sages will go through.

Physicists are understandably focused on the leading edge of science.

Classical physics gives support to many engineering solutions. Including computing.

However, quantum mechanics is what made engineering produce many of our most recent wonders.

Don't forget that John Bardeen, himself an engineer AND a quantum physicist, won the 1956 Nobel Prize for the invention of the transistor. And AGAIN in 1972 for his work on superconductivity, which is used, for example, in MRI scans.

So learn both: classical physics and quantum mechanics. You'll need them if you take electronics engineering seriously.
 
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Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: Is fundamental physics dead for the coming generations? (Including my own)
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2018, 04:30:41 am »
There is a difference between practicle and theoretical quantum physics. The real physicists we need are the ones that make semiconductors, quantum computers, superconductors, exc. The problem is most of these "dreamers" want to go study useless whims like string theory, hex bozons, and time/realativity. Well where's my force feilds, delorian, and hyperdrive?
*BZZZZZZAAAAAP*
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: Is fundamental physics dead for the coming generations? (Including my own)
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2018, 08:36:29 am »
To the OP...

You are perceptive.
You don't like "know-it-all" bullshit.
You know, roughly, where you want to go.
You are prepared to take the more difficult path to get where you want to go.

Those attitudes are a very good start; don't loose them.

The only things I would suggest to someone that wants to be an engineer are:
  • do maths plus the relevant science subjects at school
  • consider doing an engineering course at university
  • work out how to choose a good university course for your chosen subject

The last is difficult, but you have to trust your instincts. Universities vary widely in quality. Faculties within universities vary widely. Courses within faculties vary widely.

Choose university with a generally good reputation, then universities with a good reputation in your chosen subject. Then work out what you want from a course (topics, theory, practical), and look at the syllabus for the courses. Make sure there is solid theory being taught, plus solid practical that enables you to demonstrate use of the theory.

Visit several universities during their "open days" to "calibrate" your understanding and expectations, and to better understand what is (and more importantly isn't) on offer. At the end you will be more sure that your choice is right.

Don't specialise too soon. For example "electronics" is fine for a degree, but "telecomunnication electronics" is too narrow and limiting.

Do "more than is necessary", in the form of your own projects. That enables employers to distinguish those that love the subject from "timeserving wage slaves". Try to find a university that allows you to use the lab facilities for your home projects.

(I'll leave you to decide how much weight to put on "In Vacuo Veritas"'s posting!)
« Last Edit: September 20, 2018, 08:38:14 am by tggzzz »
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline MT

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Re: Is fundamental physics dead for the coming generations? (Including my own)
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2018, 01:43:40 pm »
There is a difference between practicle and theoretical quantum physics. The real physicists we need are the ones that make semiconductors, quantum computers, superconductors, exc. The problem is most of these "dreamers" want to go study useless whims like string theory, hex bozons, and time/realativity. Well where's my force feilds, delorian, and hyperdrive?

The Delorian manufacturer is still around in a town close to you.
https://www.delorean.com/

Are the hex bozons hex hit and run clowns?
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Is fundamental physics dead for the coming generations? (Including my own)
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2018, 04:05:59 pm »
String theory is more math than physics.

I went to school with a math wizard who became a physicist. He's a mental wreck now.
I went into business. Ran a small company for a few years. Burned out before I was 30, thought I could handle it myself, burned out a second time. Ten years ago, at 32, I was a burned out husk of a man. Now, I can do most normal stuff, although I have zero tolerance for stress (not just mentally; I also get hives and other physical issues).

I did go back to university, but being much older, and definitely not suited to the current-era Social Justice/Political Correctness that is overbearing in western European universities at least, I'm having severe difficulties. I'm pretty smart and capable, and still failed. Hard.

Don't specialise too soon.
This is what saved me. I was not tied to a single career path, but could (after soul-searching) switch from IT business to physics research, because I have a well-rounded set of skills.

Having well-rounded skills in widely different areas is much better than being the very best in a single subject. Not only do you have alternatives if you find a path undesirable, but there are an increasing number of tasks that require understanding in more fields than one. The competition at the very top in any subject is not on merits, but on surface and presentation, and is the place for socially oriented people.

You will derive more happiness from being a trusted, dependable member of a team, carrying your responsibilities, than being the best at something.

Do not let any single thing monopolize all your time. Have time for hobbies, preferably things where you do stuff, and develop your skills in, even if they are irrelevant to your career right now.
 

Offline LeoTechTopic starter

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Re: Is fundamental physics dead for the coming generations? (Including my own)
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2018, 04:08:50 pm »
Hallo everyone,

A huge thank you for the really motivational answers from you guys!
They helped put things in perspective, and showed me that it wasn't me who was getting all crazy.

But there is one thing I would like to clear up anyway:
When I said that they talked a lot of bullshit I didn't mean to call String theory, or whatever they were interested in, bullshit - that's a completely different discussion for another time and forum. I mean't that what they were saying about fundamental physics, such as Kinematics, was bullshit.

As an example: The teacher says that if you were to throw an object straight forward and up, like this pen, you would need a two dimensional coordinate system two describe it's position in space, which is true. Then someone starts shouting/commenting loudly that you need three dimensions to describe the position, which is simply wrong, but the person doesn't understands this, because "Space is relative, and we don't now if we really live in 3D and not 4D, or whatever, blah blah blah...." |O And the arguments is started.

Anyway I really appriciate your answers,

Leo
High School student with a passion and interest in electronics, both analog and digital!
 
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Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Is fundamental physics dead for the coming generations? (Including my own)
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2018, 05:08:59 pm »
I mean't that what they were saying about fundamental physics, such as Kinematics, was bullshit.
There are two ways of modeling atomic and molecular structures, in computational material physics, computational chemistry and quantum chemistry, and molecular biology: classical, and ab initio or quantum mechanics.

Quantum mechanical models model the electron density, and are very computationally intensive. At this point in time, in 2018, you can model systems with maybe a few thousand interacting electrons (only the outermost electrons in atoms interact), and the system must have periodic boundaries in all directions.

Classical models use mathematical approximations to describe the interactions between atoms. They are less precise (or rather, each model is limited in the situation they can model), and are usually derived from a combination of theory and practice, there being a theoretical basis for the form of the equations, but the parameters are fitted experimentally, to best fit the situation being modeled. You can easily model chunks of matter with billions of atoms; this is done for example to find new, durable alloys for hard environments like natural gas turbine pumps and fusion reactor chamber coatings; or finding useful layered materials for use in mass-produced thin layer vapor or chemical deposition, where each layer can be as thin as a single molecule thick. Those are ubiquitous in e.g. all kinds of displays.

Classical models use Newtonian kinematics to model atom movement.

Thus, a large fraction of materials physics and chemistry simulations rely on approximating Newtonian kinematics.

It sounds like the people who were arguing about the importance of some subfields of physics were basing their arguments on emotion, not on practice or utility.

As an example: The teacher says that if you were to throw an object straight forward and up, like this pen, ...
Vector algebra and linear algebra in general, as well as unit quaternions (AKA versors, describing orientation in 3D), are extremely useful tools in physics, computational physics, and computer programming (both graphics and physics modeling in e.g. games). They should be your basic tools in modeling such problems. The number of dimensions is then just a detail that depends on the model. Arguing about the number of spacetime dimensions is then like arguing that the proper solution to all hedge mazes is to use a helicopter.

There is so much left to do and fix even in basic models, it sometimes overwhelms me.

As an example, consider the Wikipedia Trilateration article. It describes how you can determine the position of an unknown point relative to three known points, if you know their distances. (It looks like EvilFish deleted the formulae in June 2018 as "original work". I don't see how any well-known math formula is "original work", but then again, Wikipedia is a social media, not an encyclopedia.) For three known points, and their distances to an unknown point, you can find the solution very easily using basic vector algebra, by using a coordinate system based on the fixed points. The result is a pair of points, symmetrically on both sides of the plane formed by the three known points. Many guides and tutorials use a complicated trigonometric function sequence to convert between coordinate systems (because they really only know about Euler and/or Tait-Bryan rotations, which IMO are evil and should not be used), but if you know the properties of 3D rotation matrices, it it really trivial to do. Just compare the "Preliminary computations" between the May 2010 and February 2018 versions of the article.

There is no end to that kind of "cutting through the crud" work, making things simpler, more robust, and more reliable, because it seems very few people know (or care about) more than one way of doing things. All it requires is a willingness to do the work to learn the details of the problem at hand, listening to those who have practical experience to learn the ropes, and then doing work necessary to find a better solution.

Similarly, even if you don't know much (other than the general basics of many subjects), but are willing and able to learn, and have that reliable team-working attitude, there are an increasing number of employers (in smaller companies, mind you; not the big conglomerates who have HR departments that do the hiring, and know nothing about the actual jobs they select people for) who are desperately trying to find such employees.
 

Offline bsfeechannel

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Re: Is fundamental physics dead for the coming generations? (Including my own)
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2018, 07:35:05 pm »
There is a difference between practicle and theoretical quantum physics. The real physicists we need are the ones that make semiconductors, quantum computers, superconductors, exc. The problem is most of these "dreamers" want to go study useless whims like string theory, hex bozons, and time/realativity. Well where's my force feilds, delorian, and hyperdrive?

I understand that. But the OP gave me impression that "Quantum mechanics" is just a fancy topic and has nothing to do with engineering.

Quite the opposite. Do study quantum mechanics. Go for it. It'll serve two purposes: 1) you'll be able to cut through the "bullshit" and 2) in the process learn the theory behind many engineering principles.

As an example: The teacher says that if you were to throw an object straight forward and up, like this pen, you would need a two dimensional coordinate system two describe it's position in space, which is true. Then someone starts shouting/commenting loudly that you need three dimensions to describe the position, which is simply wrong, but the person doesn't understands this, because "Space is relative, and we don't now if we really live in 3D and not 4D, or whatever, blah blah blah...." |O And the arguments is started.

For situations of low gravity like we have here on earth, speeds much less than the speed of light and macroscopic objects, Newtonian physics is a pretty good approximation for modelling phenomena.

So, if you're going to fire a gun and wants to know where your bullet is going to end up, you won't sit down and speculate whether we live in a 3, 4 or 11D world.

That's why we still learn classical physics at school AND college.

« Last Edit: September 20, 2018, 07:39:44 pm by bsfeechannel »
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: Is fundamental physics dead for the coming generations? (Including my own)
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2018, 08:25:33 pm »
So, if you're going to fire a gun and wants to know where your bullet is going to end up, you won't sit down and speculate whether we live in a 3, 4 or 11D world.

That's why we still learn classical physics at school AND college.

As to the thrown ball, the assumption is that it travels in a straight line and two dimensions is sufficient.

For the bullet example, we definitely think in terms of a 3D space because wind is a factor and can be quite significant at longer distances and with lighter bullets.

The thing is, we are going to get all those vectors, phasors and such in Calc 3 - Linear Algebra.  EE students will spend quite a bit of time with vectors in 2 and 3 dimensional space.  Maxwell's Equations come to mind.

But Classical Physics is the fun course in the STEM sequence.
 

Offline R005T3r

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Re: Is fundamental physics dead for the coming generations? (Including my own)
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2018, 12:28:31 pm »
You're in high school. When I was in high school I "dreamed" I wanted to be a character in a William Gibson novel. No one is going to be "string theorist".

I went to school with a math wizard who became a physicist. He's a mental wreck now. The kids that broke into houses and stole TVs, cut classes, and took drugs are all successful people now who own car dealerships, import/export business, etc... while the "smart" people are scraping by on shitty precarious engineering jobs.

So be careful what you wish for.

Print this message out, laminate it, and keep it in your wallet. Read it in thirty years and marvel at my wisdom.

SO freaking true!  :-+

An engineer job sucks sometimes, because you solve other pepole (difficult) problems and you don't make money, who make the money is your boss/enterprise, not you...
 
 

Offline bsfeechannel

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Re: Is fundamental physics dead for the coming generations? (Including my own)
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2018, 04:52:07 pm »
What's wrong with helping others make money?

Jim Williams once said : The HP 200 [...] answered a market need with a superior solution. The contribution was genuine, with the rewards evenly divided between Hewlett-Packard and its customers. The HP 200 is the way mother said things are supposed to be--the good guys won and nobody lost.

HP decided to charge less than the competition, instead of more, despite having invented a far superior product.

Jim Williams himself helped countless people make money and it doesn't seem he was destitute.

Linus Torvalds is a more recent example. He made a career out of giving away the product of his work. Corpos are making truckloads of money with it. Torvalds lives in Dunthorpe. An affluent suburb of Portland. Doesn't seem to be living in the gutter, as far as I understand.

So instead of having thieves of TV sets as role models, why not get inspired by Bill Hewlett, Jim Williams and Linus Torvalds?

Edit: correcting misspellings

« Last Edit: September 22, 2018, 07:22:07 pm by bsfeechannel »
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Is fundamental physics dead for the coming generations? (Including my own)
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2018, 07:34:59 pm »
What's wrong with helping others make money?
Nothing.  It is just that it can happen when the work environment is excellent, or it can happen because you are exploited and manipulated.

I'd love to help others make money off my work, if and only if it means they'll ensure I can concentrate on my work without having to involve in any kind of office politics, and have the necessary resources and authority to actually solve the problems, and not just paper over them.  Assign me a personal assistant to handle my timetables, monitor and report on my progress and resource use, and who has the social skills to manipulate people when office politics are involved, and I'll be happy as a clam with moderate wages, while my superiors make millions.
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Is fundamental physics dead for the coming generations? (Including my own)
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2018, 07:45:58 pm »
Quote
I think you are saying that the fundamental engineering is very important and you are a bit frustrated hearing from wannabe physicists in your high school who think they know everything, but really don't and try to be a bit snobbish when you try to explain that the fundamental engineering is important too.
I think he is saying his classmates have an incorrect understanding of newtonian physics, but they believe they understand it because they are studying "higher level" courses in quantum physics. And hence, we have potentially future quantum physicists explaining and correcting other people including their own instructors, using incorrect information.

This is the "standing on the shoulder of giants," problem. It is a real problem. I think 99% of college graduates do not understand basic newtonian physics, calculus, and integrals. And I think most human beings actually can't, despite learning equations and passing tests and getting degrees.

If you can't understand it, you adjust the subject to your own way of thinking until you can remember it long enough to pass a course. Without constant practice, you will make incorrect assumptions and errors down the line. If you truly understand it, you will refine the way you actually think and understand things, because you appreciate the error of your initial thinking.

Newton was a genius. He didn't just come up with equations. He adapted his understanding of the physical world based on his calculations and observations. Most people can't do that.

OTOH, we have only so many brain cells. We need people to understand complex things to progress. And we don't have that many super geniuses. It's perfectly fine to stand on the shoulder of giants and to focus on a specialty. As long as these future quantum physicists don't try to build bridges or rockets, we will be fine. They will do fine as stand-ins until the next true genius arrives. We need people to maintain and pass on our massive body of knowledge.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2018, 08:06:41 pm by KL27x »
 

Offline MrW0lf

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Re: Is fundamental physics dead for the coming generations? (Including my own)
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2018, 08:01:51 pm »
I think 99% of college graduates do not understand basic newtonian physics, calculus, and integrals.

Easy to test - will patient fasten seatbelt unless under social pressure or forced by technical means :horse:
 

Offline hans

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Re: Is fundamental physics dead for the coming generations? (Including my own)
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2018, 10:03:05 pm »
You're in high school. When I was in high school I "dreamed" I wanted to be a character in a William Gibson novel. No one is going to be "string theorist".

I went to school with a math wizard who became a physicist. He's a mental wreck now. The kids that broke into houses and stole TVs, cut classes, and took drugs are all successful people now who own car dealerships, import/export business, etc... while the "smart" people are scraping by on shitty precarious engineering jobs.

So be careful what you wish for.

Print this message out, laminate it, and keep it in your wallet. Read it in thirty years and marvel at my wisdom.

I partially agree. Slightly OT: I think this is called life balance. We all struggle in that regard, and there are ones who get it right and ones who do not, plus anything in between. There are people that feel themselves "beaten" when they need to ask others for help or advice. But I think especially in engineering and science college, there are highly intellectual people that are so tangled up in their rational world that they neglect their mental state severely. It also doesn't help that some people think they will start to feel better once they work harder or more.

I think in my classes people that have taken drugs usually ended up worse. In particular when it was the case in secondary school; they either have no or very low education, no drive to get a job (or unable to "get" one), and are stuck in this vicious circle.
OTOH I also have seen many people in university taking drugs (I include alcohol at study associations for convenience sake). But that's perhaps linked to my previous mention - look after yourself instead of pushing on 110% 24/7.


WRT OP: yes I agree, start at the basics. It's good that you understand you can't run when you can't walk yet. Part of school and university is learning to learn. Learn to be overwhelmed by a new subject is OK; it just takes time to read the first chapters, practice the math and exercises, understand the concepts and then move onto more advanced material.

I think we're seeing the Dunning-Kruger effect in full effect though:


If I may be ignorant as well, and label the educational levels of this curve:
- "Huh?" - kindergarten
- "I know everything" - slightly more kindergarten
- "There's more to this than I thought" - end of highschool
- "I'm never going to understand this" - freshman in uni
- "It's starting to make sense" - bachelors
- "Trust me. It's complicated" - extension into the field, either graduate or years of experience

Perhaps this is an unwanted side-effect of popuscience? Some programs try to dumb things down to make science accessible, but meanwhile skip the unbelievably hard grind it takes to become knowledgeable in any field.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2018, 10:04:59 pm by hans »
 

Offline coppercone2

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Re: Is fundamental physics dead for the coming generations? (Including my own)
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2018, 10:18:25 pm »
I don't think you should take too much stock in what high school kids say they are gonna do. If they knew what they want to do and what their passionate about, you would not have absolutely ridiculous switching rates between majors. A EE degree has similar attrition rates to a special forces program for some reason.

In high school I thought I was going to study pure mathematics and topology or chemistry. Between college and high school I thought for sure I was going to become a miner. Then I became a EE that's interested in the same stuff you seem to be. And people also said I was focused. I don't know what its like for the 'unfocused' kids.

And my subspecification of EE was determined by what classes are not in the morning or on friday.

If you want a laugh take that  curve in this graph and overlay it with a curve about how to get out of doing certain labor at work.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2018, 10:29:14 pm by coppercone2 »
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Is fundamental physics dead for the coming generations? (Including my own)
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2018, 11:18:36 pm »
[Newton] didn't just come up with equations. He adapted his understanding of the physical world based on his calculations and observations. Most people can't do that.
It's the exact same thing with respect to programming languages. Developers who are used to one language, one framework, one environment, see all problems and their solutions in terms of that environment: in terms of their own experience.

It's particularly funny when such people start critiqueing other programming languages for not supporting the one approach they are used to. ;)

[Diagram] Perhaps this is an unwanted side-effect of popuscience?
No, something like that happens in many human situations. Consider, for example, the uncanny valley. It seems to be easier to perceive emotions for quite abstract faces, compared to human faces. (Ignore the fit, look at the distribution of the individual samples.)

In visualization in general it crops up in that if you minimize the amount of extraneous information in an illustration, you can better convey the core concepts to the observer. Consider line drawings, cell shading, various comics styles. There are important reasons traffic signs are so abstract. When visualizing e.g. molecules using rendered images ("photorealistic", as if atoms were marbles), observers easily make conceptual assumptions that were not intended. (Such as "Hey, what kind of noise do atoms make when they collide?" or "What happens if two atoms' electron orbits are perpendicular, and the two atoms collide?".) Controlling the information conveyed by a visualization image is hard, but if done right, potentially extremely valuable for conveying correct concepts. (Delocalization is one of my favourites. For example, how electron orbitals are actually different ways the electron is delocalized.)

Only when the situation gets complex enough so that there is a valid analog in reality, do photorealistic visualization work better than the abstract alternatives. There is a very similar dip in the usefulness/validity of information conveyed, as a function of abstraction/realism.

Between college and high school I thought for sure I was going to become a miner.
Some really, really smart people do manual labor, and do science or research as a hobby.  It's not a bad option at all: that way you don't get mentally stressed at work, or bring work home with you, or have to do the academic competition thing; and anyone who has ever worked out regularly knows manual labor can be quite fulfilling in its own way.

Dead-end jobs only exist if you value career or money over fulfillment and happiness in life.
 

Offline coppercone2

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Re: Is fundamental physics dead for the coming generations? (Including my own)
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2018, 11:22:22 pm »
i meant like a mine engineer/blaster type guy though

I imagine your work description as a mining engineer is vastly different based on the size of the mine. Even in a small engineering company you often have engineers used as manual labor (in times of 'crisis' which are frequent) that does not interrupt the assembly line. I heard its really bad in semiconductor fabs where downtime is expensive.  I imagine that the 'technican' jobs that engineers often do are pretty much heavy labor in a mine, so I just said miner.

Unless there is a union that prevents you from picking up a hammer. This is often the case.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2018, 11:26:25 pm by coppercone2 »
 


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