Author Topic: Is it me,or Safari,or are iPads really a nightmare to use on forums?  (Read 13121 times)

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Offline tooki

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Re: Is it me,or Safari,or are iPads really a nightmare to use on forums?
« Reply #50 on: August 18, 2017, 03:29:28 pm »
Across the board, i avoid Safari on the pad and phone (Chrome)
To the poster that suggested Tapatalk... to each his own.  Never again for me, I tried it and was totally unimpressed.
I decided to give it another try, and quickly realized why I gave up on it the first time. It kinda sorta makes sense on iPhone, but on iPad, Tapatalk is just absurd. In landscape orientation -- the most common one for an iPad on any kind of stand -- it literally wastes half the screen on margins. And it's less dense in general too, requiring me to scroll FAR more than using the web page.

And it doesn't give you tools to insert formatting (!!!), which is extremely cumbersome to type on a soft keyboard.

It doesn't show user location flags - a useful touch on eevblog forums, doesn't have a simple, clean equivalent to the "unread replies" page, has trouble with some hyperlinks, zooms pictures to fit the screen (by cropping what doesn't fit)... the annoyances just go on and on.

Finally, it abuses push notifications, IMHO.

Nope, nope, nope, deleted again.
 

Offline metrologist

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Re: Is it me,or Safari,or are iPads really a nightmare to use on forums?
« Reply #51 on: August 18, 2017, 05:40:47 pm »
It's you. No problem whatsoever posting on this forum (emoticons, pictures and everything) from an iPad. Like others said, most content on the web nowadays is created on mobile devices. "But I can't use AutoCAD" - forums aren't AutoCAD... Seen a millenial type on their phone, BTW?

That last bit is an amazing sight, but I recently tried using this forum on my Android phone to search for a post and the forum search required me to enter a Captia AND do some math  :o
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Is it me,or Safari,or are iPads really a nightmare to use on forums?
« Reply #52 on: August 18, 2017, 06:48:15 pm »
It's you. No problem whatsoever posting on this forum (emoticons, pictures and everything) from an iPad. Like others said, most content on the web nowadays is created on mobile devices. "But I can't use AutoCAD" - forums aren't AutoCAD... Seen a millenial type on their phone, BTW?

That last bit is an amazing sight, but I recently tried using this forum on my Android phone to search for a post and the forum search required me to enter a Captia AND do some math  :o
By some definitions, I (1980) juuuust made the cut to be considered a millennial. But lemme tell you, my mom was always faster at typing on phones!
 

Offline SL4P

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Re: Is it me,or Safari,or are iPads really a nightmare to use on forums?
« Reply #53 on: August 18, 2017, 10:18:22 pm »
Both my kids are from the 90's - and they both realise a laptop / PC is far better for many purposes.
A smartphone is a 'communicator', a tablet is for research and consumption.
A computer is needed for generating and managing information.
Don't ask a question if you aren't willing to listen to the answer.
 
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Offline timb

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Is it me,or Safari,or are iPads really a nightmare to use on forums?
« Reply #54 on: August 19, 2017, 12:48:15 am »
Across the board, i avoid Safari on the pad and phone (Chrome)
To the poster that suggested Tapatalk... to each his own.  Never again for me, I tried it and was totally unimpressed.
I decided to give it another try, and quickly realized why I gave up on it the first time. It kinda sorta makes sense on iPhone, but on iPad, Tapatalk is just absurd. In landscape orientation -- the most common one for an iPad on any kind of stand -- it literally wastes half the screen on margins. And it's less dense in general too, requiring me to scroll FAR more than using the web page.

And it doesn't give you tools to insert formatting (!!!), which is extremely cumbersome to type on a soft keyboard.

It doesn't show user location flags - a useful touch on eevblog forums, doesn't have a simple, clean equivalent to the "unread replies" page, has trouble with some hyperlinks, zooms pictures to fit the screen (by cropping what doesn't fit)... the annoyances just go on and on.

Finally, it abuses push notifications, IMHO.

Nope, nope, nope, deleted again.

I don't know why you'd use it in landscape orientation, but you can easily collapse the sidebar that appears by swiping. (Most people uses tablets exclusively in portrait mode when consuming text; landscape is basically only good for videos.)

User locations are shown by tapping on a user's name. (You get their entire profile as well, along with threads they've posted in and so on.)

I do agree about the lack of text formatting. That said, I mostly use markup syntax these days, even when on my laptop. It's human readable, even if the particular forum doesn't support it. (*Bold*, /italic/, _underline_)

As for push notifications, actually, it doesn't abuse them at all. In fact, it gives you quite a bit of control over them. More than most apps, in fact. (You can mute each thread you follow, individually if you wish. You can also turn on/off what generates the notifications, globally, in the user settings panel.)

I have no idea what you're talking about with URLs or cropping pictures. URLs open just fine for me and pictures show up full size, uncropped. (Though, if you have image previews enabled in your user settings, browsing unread threads will show a cropped portion of the latest image to be posted in a particular thread, but that's just a preview, the image shows fine in the thread itself.)

Like I said, if the web page works for you, more power to you. To each his own.

However, I think 70% of your Tapatalk problems are PEBKAC errors. When you reinstalled it, you went into it trying to find problems, instead of figuring out how to use it and discovering solutions. Remember, Problems are just Solutions in work clothes.

The More You Know ~~~*
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic; e.g., Cheez Whiz, Hot Dogs and RF.
 

Offline SL4P

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Re: Is it me,or Safari,or are iPads really a nightmare to use on forums?
« Reply #55 on: August 19, 2017, 01:23:57 am »
@timb,  you are certainly entitled to your positive feelings about Tapatalk, but to be honest, your post was explaining how to work around some of the issues that others don't like.  They simply shouldn't be there!
I think many issues which i saw, came about because I regularly use several different brands/types if device at different times to read those forums.

Push notifications was also a real issue for me.  Every time I opened my device on many forums, Tapatalk would pop up dialogs - telling me the world would be a better place if I used their app.  Deleted, unlinked, uninstalled - and in a couple of cases, had to stop following those forums!
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Offline Naguissa

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Re: Is it me,or Safari,or are iPads really a nightmare to use on forums?
« Reply #56 on: August 19, 2017, 08:17:00 am »
I'm quite happy switching back and forth between iOS and something a little more flexible (OSX).

I've got to be honest and say that at least 90% of my personal needs are well met by iOS. It does take getting used to but that's only because it's different. With iOS 11 it'll have a proper filesystem on board as well which will make it less different.

You know the killer feature for me? I'll be sitting there at the Mac reading something and go for a poo. Open safari, switch tabs, scroll down, pick a tab off the mac and carry on reading. Same with email, notes, calendars, the lot. If I take a photo on my iPhone it'll be there on the mac when I get home. This has worked flawlessly for me.

I know Windows has this as well, but it is a complete piece of shit and doesn't work (I have a windows laptop and a couple of test windows phones as well).

As for Linux, there isn't anything like it.

I'm happy paying for just this feature.

As for the original question, I switch back and forth between iOS/OSX and have no problems with Safari. If you jump off a windows or Linux box it'll be difficult until you get used to it. This is more "who moved my cheese" than "it's a piece of crap". I wanted to smash the damn thing for 2 weeks until I realised I expected the device to meet ME at the party, not meet the device half way there.
For browser sync, Firefox Sync. For FS, Syncthing (sort of Dropbox).

Both are compstible with all major OSs, including mobile ones.

I use them on Windows, Linux and mobile since more than a year and they do a really good job.

Enviado desde mi Jolla mediante Tapatalk


Offline tooki

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Re: Is it me,or Safari,or are iPads really a nightmare to use on forums?
« Reply #57 on: August 19, 2017, 10:51:14 am »
I don't know why you'd use it in landscape orientation, but you can easily collapse the sidebar that appears by swiping.
Huh? There's no sidebar. (Swiping from the left goes back, swiping from top, bottom, and right all invoke their respective iOS system-level functions.) Are you running a different version of Tapatalk than what's available on the Apple App Store??

Here's what the forum listing and a post look like:




For comparison, the same thing in the web view:





(Most people uses tablets exclusively in portrait mode when consuming text; landscape is basically only good for videos.)
Aside from that I already explained the why (a stand), I have no idea where you get the idea that tablets are mostly used for reading in portrait orientation. Nearly all tablet cases on the market have landscape-only stands. MS Surface tablets have built-in stands -- in landscape. Do a google image search for "iPad case" and look at how few of them support portrait orientation. Go to a cafe and look at how people are using their tablets.

Moreover, landscape is a fully supported orientation in tablets; you're basically saying we shouldn't use it. My iPad gets used probably 99% in landscape, and probably 50% of the time with an external bluetooth keyboard. (RSI problems mean I really can't use the software keyboard comfortably.)

User locations are shown by tapping on a user's name. (You get their entire profile as well, along with threads they've posted in and so on.)
Yet another tap to do something that in the web view simply takes a glance. (Also, it shows a different location. The web view shows a flag icon for the user's selected country. Tapatalk shows the contents of the Location (city) field.)

I do agree about the lack of text formatting. That said, I mostly use markup syntax these days, even when on my laptop. It's human readable, even if the particular forum doesn't support it. (*Bold*, /italic/, _underline_)
I'm just perplexed that they haven't implemented it, since it's such low-hanging fruit. I can understand them not specifically supporting the custom multimeter, tongue-at-the-right-angle, and beating-the-dead-horse smileys, but not even bold and italic??

As for push notifications, actually, it doesn't abuse them at all. In fact, it gives you quite a bit of control over them. More than most apps, in fact. (You can mute each thread you follow, individually if you wish. You can also turn on/off what generates the notifications, globally, in the user settings panel.)
I agree that it has fine control, but its defaults are absurd.

I have no idea what you're talking about with URLs or cropping pictures. URLs open just fine for me and pictures show up full size, uncropped. (Though, if you have image previews enabled in your user settings, browsing unread threads will show a cropped portion of the latest image to be posted in a particular thread, but that's just a preview, the image shows fine in the thread itself.)
There was a URL to a PDF in some thread, and it refused to load in the Tapatalk browser. It loaded just fine in Safari (in fact, it loaded just fine when I used Tapatalk's "show web view" function to view the forum, and then tapped the link within that web view), so it wasn't an error in the post, it was something with Tapatalk's parsing. Most URLs work fine, but this one screwed something up. I wish I could find it.

As for images: the inline thumbnails are fine. If you tap to zoom in, it zooms to fill the screen, and you can pan, but if you pinch to zoom out (or in, for that matter), it bounces back when you release!!  |O




However, I think 70% of your Tapatalk problems are PEBKAC errors. When you reinstalled it, you went into it trying to find problems, instead of figuring out how to use it and discovering solutions.
That's rather presumptuous. I didn't go in looking for errors, I went in and tried to use it, since some people raved about it, and it could have improved since I last looked at it. Then I simply enumerated the pain points I encountered. (Believe me, if I had gone in actually looking, I'd have produced a rather different report; I have a professional background in usability. Looking for usability problems is referred to as "expert review", and it's not what I did.)

Is it really so hard for you to respect that it simply doesn't meet everyone's needs, and not belittle us for wanting something more capable?


Remember, Problems are just Solutions in work clothes.
I don't want to have to work around things. They should be self-explanatory! (And since the full web view works as expected with few surprises, it works better for me. I don't have to remember which features are missing.)

The More You Know ~~~*
I dunno if you thought you were being cute there or something, but that's actually just rude.  :--
« Last Edit: August 19, 2017, 11:49:41 am by tooki »
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Is it me,or Safari,or are iPads really a nightmare to use on forums?
« Reply #58 on: August 19, 2017, 11:58:57 am »
Both my kids are from the 90's - and they both realise a laptop / PC is far better for many purposes.
A smartphone is a 'communicator', a tablet is for research and consumption.
A computer is needed for generating and managing information.
Sure. Just because someone is young doesn't mean they won't recognize the strengths and weaknesses of different tools. (Anyone who thinks otherwise is really taking an awfully simplistic view on things.)

What did surprise me, honestly, is the degree to which the iPad has displaced my MacBook, in particular once I paired the iPad with a good hardware keyboard. Most of my casual web browsing, social media, forum participation, and telecommunication (texting, voice and video calls) have migrated to the iPad. Despite the iPad having a smaller screen, its screen is of higher quality in every respect, making reading more relaxing. I bought the iPad without knowing what I needed it for, or even really wanting it, just because it was on sale for so cheap (less than what the same model was selling for used on the open market) that if I didn't like it, I could sell it for a profit. It really surprised me how much I like it.

However, to an extent, the iPad displacing the MacBook says more about how I used the MacBook than anything else — all my heavy lifting (design work, hardcore research, photo editing, arduino coding, office tasks, etc) is done on my Mac Pro desktop with its 27" screen. That stuff was rarely done on the MacBook anyway, it was used primarily for communication and media consumption.
 

Offline hendorog

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Re: Is it me,or Safari,or are iPads really a nightmare to use on forums?
« Reply #59 on: August 21, 2017, 08:41:42 pm »
I'm quite happy switching back and forth between iOS and something a little more flexible (OSX).

I've got to be honest and say that at least 90% of my personal needs are well met by iOS. It does take getting used to but that's only because it's different. With iOS 11 it'll have a proper filesystem on board as well which will make it less different.

You know the killer feature for me? I'll be sitting there at the Mac reading something and go for a poo. Open safari, switch tabs, scroll down, pick a tab off the mac and carry on reading. Same with email, notes, calendars, the lot. If I take a photo on my iPhone it'll be there on the mac when I get home. This has worked flawlessly for me.

I know Windows has this as well, but it is a complete piece of shit and doesn't work (I have a windows laptop and a couple of test windows phones as well).

As for Linux, there isn't anything like it.


There is if you change your perspective.

Google Chrome has a 'Tabs on Other devices' feature. Works on all platforms Win/OSX/Linux.

For me the OS is irrelevant these days, I swap between Win, OSX and Linux all of the time - although generally my Linux use is via ssh/bash.
I don't use any of the Apple tools or apps like Safari or Mail, as I find them frustrating to use in general - and they don't sync up with my cross platform 'world'.
I don't use iCloud for the same reason - it's not cross platform so is useless to me.

It is important to have Safari around to test websites though. I recently discovered Safari still doesn't support native HTML5 datetime controls - everyone else now does - which was a major PITA.

 

Offline tooki

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Re: Is it me,or Safari,or are iPads really a nightmare to use on forums?
« Reply #60 on: August 21, 2017, 08:48:08 pm »
Apple's cross-device integration goes well beyond just browser tabs and photos.

I've never understood people that do everything in the browser. Not saying it's wrong, I just don't get it; to me native apps almost always beat web. Not to mention the myriad things that just don't exist as web apps.

I will share your frustration, however, at Safari no longer being at the vanguard of new web standards, as it was in earlier times. Safari is a great everyday browser (stable, fast, and energy efficient), but it has kinda stagnated in terms of adding support for new HTML features. :(
 

Offline hendorog

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Re: Is it me,or Safari,or are iPads really a nightmare to use on forums?
« Reply #61 on: August 21, 2017, 09:19:09 pm »
Yes - and Chromes x-device integration also goes further too. At least it goes far enough for me.

I don't do everything in the browser, just email/calendar really. The payback for having online email is really significant and for me outweighs the downsides. Basically I just got tired of constantly re-setting things up after reinstalls etc and making the same change on multiple computers.

For application development I work in native tools only (well java is native enough) - I use the command line extensively as it is common across all platforms. I'm a java developer and of course that is x-platform. It means I can switch from OSX to Win7 to Win10 to AWS Linux servers seamlessly. e.g. My Win10 laptop fell over the other week and I was able to switch to the OSX one and be back up and running quickly.

Not being critical but I've observed many EE's seem to be quite negative on anything cloud in general. However, from the perspective of software development on any scale it just makes life so much easier and more practical.

Yeah I don't get why Safari doesn't add those new features. It is finally being done 'right' and they are dragging their heels which is daft.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Is it me,or Safari,or are iPads really a nightmare to use on forums?
« Reply #62 on: August 21, 2017, 10:24:53 pm »
Yes - and Chromes x-device integration also goes further too. At least it goes far enough for me.
What else does Chrome sync beyond tabs, history, and (I assume) passwords? Extensions? (I only use Chrome as a backup browser, so I haven't even played with its syncing.)

I don't do everything in the browser, just email/calendar really. The payback for having online email is really significant and for me outweighs the downsides.
As for me, I've never liked webmail. Though they have gotten far better over the years, they still fall quite short of providing the user experience of a native client. What I did say "good riddance" to ages ago was that cursed POP email, what a f**king nightmare that was if you had more than one device. IMAP, baby! :P

Basically I just got tired of constantly re-setting things up after reinstalls etc and making the same change on multiple computers.
Well, to an extent, isn't that a consequence of running OSes that make system migration dauntingly difficult? One of the things Apple has done exceedingly well for a long time now is system migration, where — regardless of whether the source is a working device or a backup of a failed one — the migration assistant literally configures your new system identically to the old, down to nearly the smallest detail, such that you can pick up where you left off in just a few hours. (You can also let iCloud sync account settings across devices, so that if you e.g. update the changed server address of your IMAP email account on one device, that change will propagate to the other devices.)

And things like Dropbox work well for keeping documents in sync.

For application development I work in native tools only (well java is native enough) - I use the command line extensively as it is common across all platforms. I'm a java developer and of course that is x-platform. It means I can switch from OSX to Win7 to Win10 to AWS Linux servers seamlessly. e.g. My Win10 laptop fell over the other week and I was able to switch to the OSX one and be back up and running quickly.
I can imagine that for (at minimum many types of) development, this is absolutely true. Many other use scenarios unfortunately end up being much more platform-specific.

Not being critical but I've observed many EE's seem to be quite negative on anything cloud in general. However, from the perspective of software development on any scale it just makes life so much easier and more practical.
Totally agree with you. But to each his own, I suppose!

I also think there's also quite a cultural difference, too. I'm an American living in Switzerland, and in general, I find the Swiss (and Europeans in general) to be far more skeptical of cloud services than Americans. They are more concerned about privacy in general, and see cloud services as riskier in that regard. Again, not saying one side or the other is right, just an observation.

Yeah I don't get why Safari doesn't add those new features. It is finally being done 'right' and they are dragging their heels which is daft.
Yup. In the early days, Safari was really ahead of the pack in adding long-needed things, like better useful text effects, graphics properties, advanced widgets, etc. I am truly baffled that Apple has let Google become the leader in this, especially given that Chrome is OSS, and that with the common ancestry between Safari and Chrome, migrating those new things from the Chrome codebase should be comparatively easy.
 

Offline hendorog

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Re: Is it me,or Safari,or are iPads really a nightmare to use on forums?
« Reply #63 on: August 21, 2017, 11:34:29 pm »
Yes - and Chromes x-device integration also goes further too. At least it goes far enough for me.
What else does Chrome sync beyond tabs, history, and (I assume) passwords? Extensions? (I only use Chrome as a backup browser, so I haven't even played with its syncing.)

Had to look myself, probably the main ones are Apps (i.e. in-browser apps like Postman, Lastpass etc for example), Settings, History, Extensions.

It is really about buying into an 'ecosystem' - to work the way I do I had to sell my soul to Google about 10 years ago :)
I don't want two of ecosystems which are not compatible with each other, so I must deliberately avoid getting too deep into the iCloud/OSX world.

I don't do everything in the browser, just email/calendar really. The payback for having online email is really significant and for me outweighs the downsides.
As for me, I've never liked webmail. Though they have gotten far better over the years, they still fall quite short of providing the user experience of a native client. What I did say "good riddance" to ages ago was that cursed POP email, what a f**king nightmare that was if you had more than one device. IMAP, baby! :P
Yep IMAP is way better, man the pain I suffered trying to prise people from POP - back in the day I had to block it on the server to force people to switch to ensure their email wasn't lost when their laptop died/got nicked/fell in the drink...

I don't file email, just leave it in the inbox and use search. Some people can't stand that modus operandi but it does make gmail nicer.

Basically I just got tired of constantly re-setting things up after reinstalls etc and making the same change on multiple computers.
Well, to an extent, isn't that a consequence of running OSes that make system migration dauntingly difficult? One of the things Apple has done exceedingly well for a long time now is system migration, where — regardless of whether the source is a working device or a backup of a failed one — the migration assistant literally configures your new system identically to the old, down to nearly the smallest detail, such that you can pick up where you left off in just a few hours. (You can also let iCloud sync account settings across devices, so that if you e.g. update the changed server address of your IMAP email account on one device, that change will propagate to the other devices.)

And things like Dropbox work well for keeping documents in sync.
That is good, however it's not x-platform and so not really useful to me. I only use one Mac laptop and a collection of non Mac stuff and haven't had to migrate my Mac yet. With Chrome the browser sets itself up on a new machine once I install Chrome and login, which is not the same thing but does save quite a bit of setup time at the end of the day.

Obviously the unix OS's have this type of functionality by design (at user level) but not as user-friendly and not system wide. I used to scp my home directory around machines.

Yeah I've used dropbox, good for quick sharing/syncing. I tend to use SpiderOak more now for syncing as it is always there on all my machines as I use it for backup. Its bloody brilliant at backup. Dropbox is better for sharing but not so good at the backup.

For application development I work in native tools only (well java is native enough) - I use the command line extensively as it is common across all platforms. I'm a java developer and of course that is x-platform. It means I can switch from OSX to Win7 to Win10 to AWS Linux servers seamlessly. e.g. My Win10 laptop fell over the other week and I was able to switch to the OSX one and be back up and running quickly.
I can imagine that for (at minimum many types of) development, this is absolutely true. Many other use scenarios unfortunately end up being much more platform-specific.
Yeah, seems to me that EE software is often Windows only. That is actually one of the things which drove me to get a Windows laptop again, otherwise I would have gone back to Linux. Prior to that I was on OSX and prior to that I had Linux laptops. Having used linux as a primary OS for many years I made the call to not swim against the tide this time and just suck it up and get a Windows laptop for Windows stuff.
Also I do think MS have turned a corner on their old irritating attitude of 'everything must be windows'. For example I use the newish MS Linux/Ubuntu subsystem within Windows 10 all the time.

Not being critical but I've observed many EE's seem to be quite negative on anything cloud in general. However, from the perspective of software development on any scale it just makes life so much easier and more practical.
Totally agree with you. But to each his own, I suppose!

I also think there's also quite a cultural difference, too. I'm an American living in Switzerland, and in general, I find the Swiss (and Europeans in general) to be far more skeptical of cloud services than Americans. They are more concerned about privacy in general, and see cloud services as riskier in that regard. Again, not saying one side or the other is right, just an observation.
Yep I think you are right - and Switzerland is a great place too.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Is it me,or Safari,or are iPads really a nightmare to use on forums?
« Reply #64 on: August 22, 2017, 12:27:18 am »
Yeah, seems to me that EE software is often Windows only. That is actually one of the things which drove me to get a Windows laptop again, otherwise I would have gone back to Linux. Prior to that I was on OSX and prior to that I had Linux laptops. Having used linux as a primary OS for many years I made the call to not swim against the tide this time and just suck it up and get a Windows laptop for Windows stuff.
For sure. For most things, it's exceedingly rare that I can't find a great native Mac application. But engineering is an exception. (Even the ones that do exist are often poorly-done ports of Windows or legacy UNIX apps that don't even attempt a fleeting resemblance to native Mac apps.)

Also I do think MS have turned a corner on their old irritating attitude of 'everything must be windows'. For example I use the newish MS Linux/Ubuntu subsystem within Windows 10 all the time.
Totally. I was never a rabid Microsoft hater*, but certainly saw how their Borg-like "you will be assimilated" attitude led to them pushing and shoving their way into businesses they should never have entered, like a bull in a china shop. That and that I did object to the slimy business practices they used back in the day to force Windows onto every PC, making it impossible for any alternative OSes for x86 hardware to take a foothold. And those things, which many people find unsavory, honestly did a disservice to the Microsoft products that actually were (and are) legitimately superior on their own merits. I am really, really glad to see the Microsoft of the past few years becoming a bit more humble, and working harder to make its products work well within the larger IT industry, as well as focusing on quality more than in the past.

*Though I suppose one could argue that I am a rabid hater of Windows (and Linux on the desktop), simply because I consider them to have really lousy usability.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Is it me,or Safari,or are iPads really a nightmare to use on forums?
« Reply #65 on: August 22, 2017, 10:46:33 am »
Microsoft stuff is only superior until it breaks. Then it's the worst. I mean literally eye gouging pain. I have lost days of my life to their shitty QA and general engineering.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Is it me,or Safari,or are iPads really a nightmare to use on forums?
« Reply #66 on: August 22, 2017, 11:15:35 am »
Microsoft stuff is only superior until it breaks. Then it's the worst. I mean literally eye gouging pain. I have lost days of my life to their shitty QA and general engineering.
Despite being more of an Apple guy, I have to sorta defend MS here: Their software may have issues, but it's far better than a lot of other software!

I used to work for a company whose product interfaces with word processors (Word and OO.o/LO Writer, plus a smattering of LaTeX editors) to automate formatting (citations and bibliographies, to be exact). Now, while we did have the occasional snafu with Word, it largely worked, and worked reliably. Writer, on the other hand... what a nightmare. Not only was their scripting API poorly documented in comparison, it also did not work as documented (API changes from version to version, but docs not updated), when it worked at all. In one instance, a minor point-update to Writer completely broke its scripting (not just with our product; it broke it completely). It wasn't that there was some strange edge case that occurred under a rare constellation of circumstances -- they hadn't tested it at al, and scripting was completely disabled.

In contrast, Word's APIs were not only well documented and reliable, they were also stable over time, not requiring changes for new versions of Word.

In a nutshell, I think MS Office is actually quite well engineered and tested. It's proven to be quite reliable over a very long time. (It's just a powerful, complex beast that exceeds what most people need, though for someone like me, who was at that software company primarily to do technical writing, I really did use advanced Word features all the time, things that are still lacking in all the competition.)


Anyhow, as for Microsoft's QA and engineering: what actually amazes me is that (excepting Office), Microsoft's software is so bad despite the fact that Microsoft is actually a model citizen in software engineering practices. Their ratio of testers to developers varies between 2:1 and 1:1 (yes, for some things they've got twice as many testers as devs; in contrast, Google has at most 1:1, but more commonly far fewer testers than devs). They (at least in the past) also had a low ratio of devs to project managers whose job it was to coordinate the development and testing, so that the devs and testers didn't have to do waste time on admin. MS's usability testing methodologies are actually quite good*.

Yet despite this, the products that emerge don't reflect the effort that went into them. (Like Windows 8. What the hell were they thinking????) Often, compromises made at the altar of backward-compatibility-at-all-cost ended up causing huge issues down the line.

*For example, the development process that led to the Ribbon, much hated by those who refused to give it a chance, was a model of good practices, resulting in a product that actually works very well for most people, even those who dislike it, as borne out by usability testing. The genesis was earlier: they used years worth of usage telemetry from Office 2003 to figure out how users actually used Office, like what sequences of commands they used, which commands were often followed by an undo, etc. And the document for the Ribbon UI guidelines is fantastic, covering in excruciating detail how the Ribbon controls must work, so that there are no inconsistencies between applications. (Historically, inconsistency between apps has been, and remains, a huge problem in the Windows world.)
« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 11:17:43 am by tooki »
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Is it me,or Safari,or are iPads really a nightmare to use on forums?
« Reply #67 on: August 22, 2017, 11:23:56 am »
Microsoft stuff is only superior until it breaks. Then it's the worst. I mean literally eye gouging pain. I have lost days of my life to their shitty QA and general engineering.
I will spew fire at one thing though: the Windows Registry. That has got to be the singularly worst design decision ever made in a major software product. Whoever came up with that needs to be condemned to eternity in IT hell, i.e. first-level support at a company where all the employees and customers are of the caliber of George and Paula.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Is it me,or Safari,or are iPads really a nightmare to use on forums?
« Reply #68 on: August 22, 2017, 11:31:06 am »
The registry is bloody amazing and a nice idea if I'm honest. It is far better than property lists or 6 million dotfiles crapped in your home directory as it's a lot more mobile. That's the one design decision I will say is a good one. I rather like it. It only breaks when people do silly things in it and that includes vendors.

I disagree with Office. I maintain a very large document authoring and versioning system that plugs into word via VSTO (half mil LOC c#) and the whole shebang is a pile of shit that barely works. Look at Word.SaveAs vs Word.SaveAs2 vs Word.Save for example. The whole thing is a smelly poop. We have had to wrap every damn COM call in an exception wrapper to attempt to catch obscure things and react to them. Then there's the mess of trying to make that work across hundreds of different corporate proxy implementations because MSFT are smoking crack with WPAD etc.

I'm not going to even mention Office 364.

 

Offline tooki

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Re: Is it me,or Safari,or are iPads really a nightmare to use on forums?
« Reply #69 on: August 22, 2017, 12:31:30 pm »
The registry is bloody amazing and a nice idea if I'm honest. It is far better than property lists or 6 million dotfiles crapped in your home directory as it's a lot more mobile. That's the one design decision I will say is a good one. I rather like it. It only breaks when people do silly things in it and that includes vendors.
It's a nice idea on paper, but it's responsible for HUGE issues in practice. It created a single point of failure so bad that MS had to virtualize the entire Registry to keep userspace apps from borking the OS entirely.

No, you don't want plists and dotfiles strewn everywhere, either. But that's not the only alternative to the registry.

Honestly, I haven't seen anyone come up with something as elegant as Apple-née-NeXT: the hierarchy of Library folders. It's strictly defined, it's easy to use for both developers (and advanced users; normal users never see them), and it's reasonably easy to fix things when they do go wrong. But being folders, it also affords flexibility to developers that the Registry does not. (For example, apps can use the Application Support subfolder to store a folder with support files, as opposed to having to have those support folders littering the Programs directory like on Windows.)


I will add that a related, though technically separate, issue is that many of the things stored in the Registry are things that shouldn't be defined statically at all. My go-to example of this is file associations. In Windows, there's a 1:1 association between a filetype (which itself is identified solely by file ending) and a single application (identified by its path) that "owns" that filetype, and that association is written by an installer or an application itself. Often, there is contention for a filetype, leading to a poor user experience.

In contrast, the Mac's Launch Services database is generated dynamically based on the applications currently available (meaning installed on the boot disk, or present on another disk or a network share). Applications include inside them a listing of its native/preferred file types, as well as of non-preferred file types it can open. Launch Services compiles these on the fly into an association for the default application, while maintaining a list of alternative applications to show in the Open With command. (For example, Photoshop will declare PSD as its native file type, but will also declare that it can open JPEG, TIFF, etc. Meanwhile, another photo editor might use PNG as its native file type, but will also declare that it can open PSD, JPEG, etc. By default, then, double-clicking a PSD file will open it in Photoshop, but right-clicking and choosing Open With will show you Photoshop at the top, and then your other photo editors, Preview, etc.)

The default application is selected based on some algorithm that considers the location, version, etc. You know how I said Launch Services is dynamic? It will literally update the database the instant another disk or network share is mounted. (Note that while the database is cached to disk for performance reasons across reboots, it's fundamentally dynamic, and the cache file can be deleted with no deleterious effects.)

(Everything it figures out algorithmically can be manually overridden, by the way. You can change the default application for a file type, or you can also set an individual file to open in a particular application when double-clicked, even if another application is the default for that file type. So you can have JPEGs open in Preview by default, but have specific JPEGs open in Photoshop, others in Affinity Photo, etc.)

Notably absent: the ability for an application to go in and overwrite another app's file associations. (Because the associations are a property of the applications, not of the operating system.)

(On the Mac, a file's filetype and "creator" application can be saved separately as extended attributes in the metadata, so that if the extension is lost, it can still be opened, while the "creator" tells the OS to open it with a particular application, as explained above.)

I disagree with Office. I maintain a very large document authoring and versioning system that plugs into word via VSTO (half mil LOC c#) and the whole shebang is a pile of shit that barely works. Look at Word.SaveAs vs Word.SaveAs2 vs Word.Save for example. The whole thing is a smelly poop. We have had to wrap every damn COM call in an exception wrapper to attempt to catch obscure things and react to them. Then there's the mess of trying to make that work across hundreds of different corporate proxy implementations because MSFT are smoking crack with WPAD etc.
I'm not a developer so I can't really respond to your specific issues, I just know what the developers at that company always told me: that everything else was much, much worse.

I'm not going to even mention Office 364.
Well, that's your own fault for choosing Office 365's l'il sibling who's short a chromosome!  ;)

That said (being that I haven't worked at that software company since 2012), what's wrong with Office 365? The only thing I'd heard was an issue for software devs was when they were using that App-V app streaming as Office Ready to Run (or whatever it was called), which didn't allow add-ons because the entire app runs in a virtualized environment that cannot see the local OS at all. But I think they stopped offering that, and now it's just regular local installs, just with subscription pricing instead of purchased licenses.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Is it me,or Safari,or are iPads really a nightmare to use on forums?
« Reply #70 on: August 22, 2017, 01:08:59 pm »
Yeah MacOS gets it right there. It's nice to be able to use "open" from a terminal as well.

Office 365 client-side is fine. No problems there. Even App-V streaming was fine at the end of the day. The big problem is the server side of things and the authentication. The killer problems we've had are that our company domain has been around for at least two decades before Office 365 came on the scene so we have lots of disparate personal microsoft accounts, Office 365's AD and Azure AD to deal with as well as on site AD which are all tied together. Some days things just break without human intervention and we get 500 people who can't get their email. Then there's the turd that is formerly known as ForeFront which has been crudely bolted into O365 quietly which is responsible for email delivery problems, disappearing emails and attachments and all sorts of shenangans. We have to hire three guys to look after Office 365 whereas we had to hire two to look after Exchange and AD.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Is it me,or Safari,or are iPads really a nightmare to use on forums?
« Reply #71 on: August 22, 2017, 01:17:11 pm »
Understood. Does MS no longer offer non-subscription-authenticated site licenses like they did before 365?
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Is it me,or Safari,or are iPads really a nightmare to use on forums?
« Reply #72 on: August 22, 2017, 03:18:25 pm »
Unfortunately not. They're tied into periodic activation via the web. When you sign into O365, you're signing into your subscription account as well.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Is it me,or Safari,or are iPads really a nightmare to use on forums?
« Reply #73 on: August 22, 2017, 06:41:48 pm »
I figured as much. Having worked for a software company, I really, really understand why developers want everyone to always use the latest version, and the motivation to change from yearly spurts of upgrade income to an ongoing revenue stream. The objection I have, which I suspect is precisely the kind of thing you run into, is the oft unreliable activation systems themselves.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Is it me,or Safari,or are iPads really a nightmare to use on forums?
« Reply #74 on: August 22, 2017, 07:06:41 pm »
Unfortunately not. They're tied into periodic activation via the web. When you sign into O365, you're signing into your subscription account as well.
Welcome to the world where software isn't a product any more, but a service. Unfortunately, Microsoft jumped on that band wagon when Satya Nadella took over. Maybe it is prudent to explore that path, as the other giants like Facebook and Google are highly successful and the traditional market has been slumping, but in true Microsoft fashion they go all-in and leave people dependent on their software with little choice. People build their companies and infrastructure around these products and if the rug suddenly gets pulled from under them, it's going to hurt in major ways whatever you choose to do next.

That is a shame too, as their current range of products really is great in corporate environments. It's just that how it's structured and licensed can make it hard to swallow.


I figured as much. Having worked for a software company, I really, really understand why developers want everyone to always use the latest version, and the motivation to change from yearly spurts of upgrade income to an ongoing revenue stream. The objection I have, which I suspect is precisely the kind of thing you run into, is the oft unreliable activation systems themselves.
From the client's perspective, it's not an obvious choice at all. You make your business fully dependent on the continued services of another. If that were to be the case with one of the packages essential to your operation, that might be doable. The problem is that everyone is jumping in and that you now need to manage a whole herd of services and associated risks. Especially offline applications can steadily run for years without trouble if it is a product and not a service. I have trouble understanding why any firm would want all their CAD projects, and the infrastructure to access them, hosted elsewhere. If that is your bread and butter, it seems a huge risk to take, both from a perspective of protecting your IP and service availability.

Added to that is that your environment is continuously changing. Testing becomes a nightmare and, in practice, sometimes happens in production and employees get confused or even need to be retrained. Simple things like changing the position or availability of buttons can be a real hassle. Even though you can defer upgrades and all that, it's not quite the same as testing and using a known platform.

You surrender an essential bit of control to parties outside of your control. In the case of Microsoft, that party is big enough to be completely impartial to the demise of your company. I am the first to admit that self hosted applications also require updates and carry other risks, but they seem to be a different order of magnitude.
 


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