Is this plausible?

[larrybl]

I was watching a video where abandoned buildings are explored in the desert. The guy in the video came across some old 6 volt batteries and a large capacitor. He said that he carries a large capacitor (didn’t state the ratings) but he said that if you have a dead car battery, like if you left the lights on overnight, that you could connect the capacitor to the battery it will give enough boost to start the car. He didn’t state if the capacitor was charged prior to connecting to the battery, but said that the battery would recover some once the lights were off and that residual charge would allow the capacitor to provide enough current to start the engine.  Seems plausible to me as long as a large enough cap is used, thoughts?   

[Berni]

Yes totally works. However the capacitor will have to have quite a bit more than just 27 000uF of capacitance

[larrybl]

So say a bank of 8 - 10 27k wired in parallel should work? A jump pack may be cheaper.

[larrybl]

Thanks, I did a search and found the "Super Cap's are around 2.7 volt, but you can get them configured in a bank of 6 rated at 500F for $69.00 at walmart.com. I assume more than one bank would be needed.

[wraper]

Using lithium battery is way more cost and size effective,

[spec]

Hi larrybl,

Assuming that the 'flat' battery still has a terminal voltage of 12V, and is able to supply the energy described below, then the rough figures look like this:

Starting current: 200A
Minimum starting Voltage: 8V (thus delta V = 12V-8V=4V)
Time to start engine: 2 sec

Then from, Q=CV=IT you can get C=IT/V

Inserting values gives, C= (200 * 2)/4 =100F

So, based on these figures, you would need a 13V, 100F capacitor, capable of sourcing 200A for 2s. 100 of 1F capacitors in parallel would do the job.

While this would work in theory, it would not really be practical, because most 12V car batteries that are left discharged for any length of time only have a terminal voltage of a couple of volts, and an engine that had not been run for a while normally takes more than two seconds to start.

I suppose you could carry around an eight 18650 LiIon cell stack to charge up the 100F capacitor bank.

Say the LiIon stack could source 20A, then it would only take 2 * 200/20 = 20 seconds to charge the capacitor bank. On the other hand, you could use a LiIon stack made from 30A, 18650s and reduce the charge time to around 8 seconds (in theory). But, in both cases the battery stack would be flat after charging the capacitor bank just once (or about twice using a switch mode constant current charger).

Be interesting to try it out, but the capacitor bank would cost a fortune, around £6,100UK.   UPDATE: but see MK14's reply #7 covering supercaps, which are more compact and radically cheaper.

https://content.kemet.com/datasheets/KEM_A4075_ALS70_71.pdf

https://eu.nkon.nl/

[MK14]

This guy seems to use them to start his car, in the video.

[Benta]

This guy seems to use them to start his car, in the video.

Yes, but only once. You need a lot of confidence in your ignition/fuel system for this. I prefer lead-acid where I can crank for minutes if needed.

[MK14]

This guy seems to use them to start his car, in the video.

Yes, but only once. You need a lot of confidence in your ignition/fuel system for this. I prefer lead-acid where I can crank for minutes if needed.

I'm NOT trying to suggest, that we all go out, and chuck out our lead-acid batteries, and replace them with some supercapacitors.

I'm just trying to show that it is plausible, for someone to start a car (once), using just (pre-charged) supercapacitors.

[larrybl]

Well, the guy in the video rambles a lot commenting on the things he finds, I think around Area 51, and just thought it interesting that he carries a capacitor instead of a jump pack. I could use something small that when my Garden Tractor quits when I'm out in the back 40 I don't need to lug a fresh battery (and gas) all the way out there.

[MK14]

Well, the guy in the video rambles a lot commenting on the things he finds, I think around Area 51, and just thought it interesting that he carries a capacitor instead of a jump pack. I could use something small that when my Garden Tractor quits when I'm out in the back 40 I don't need to lug a fresh battery (and gas) all the way out there.

I was only answering the bit about it being "plausible".

As others have said in this thread, it is NOT recommended. Because it would soon run out of charge, after just one start. It may not even work reliably and/or could even be a bit unsafe.

But there are special jump starting things (with lithium or lead acid cells), which you can buy from shops, for doing it.

tl;dr
It (supercapacitors) is NOT a good way at the moment.

[MK14]

Or to put it another way.
Mythbusters may start a fire, using an old bullet, some straw and an old bottle of paraffin.

Yes, it is plausible to start a fire that way.

But it is NOT recommended or a good idea, and might even be dangerous.
Use matches or a lighter, instead.

[MK14]

Surely they are configured in a 6 x 2.5V way ?
(Look at the + and - symbols on the capacitors. They are in opposing directions. If they were in pairs, then it would be the other way round).

A quick look at the picture/video, seems to show they are all in series, i.e. 6 x 2.5V.

Although I don't know the person in the video, I would guess that since he talks about Digi-Key, he knows at least enough about electronics to wire the capacitors up correctly.

I would expect, most non-electronics people, have never heard of Digi-Key.

[spec]

Surely they are configured in a 6 x 2.5V way ?

Quite right. I had realized that and deleted my incorrect post before reading your post above.

But that means that the overall capacitance of the capacitor stack is 350F/6 = 58F with a voltage of 6 * 2.5V =15V (providing all super caps have exactly the same capacitance values and characteristics). 58F just does not seem sufficient.

As I mentioned in my deleted post, if you did a complete design analysis, there would be a few problems, especially with voltage sharing, max current, and temperature, I would suggest.

The worst case, temperature, starting current and duration for a car are pretty severe, and with start stop and diesel engines particularly so.

But in spite of the above comments, these super caps are interesting, especially at the price.

[MK14]

Surely they are configured in a 6 x 2.5V way ?

Quite right. I had realized that and deleted my incorrect post before reading your post above.

But that means that the capacitance of the capacitor stack is 350F/6 = 58F with a voltage of 6 * 2.5V =15V (providing all have exactly the same capacitance values and characteristics).

As I mentioned in my deleted post, if you did a complete design, there would be a few problems, especially with temperature, I would suggest.

I agree.
As you say, a number of the design parameters, could be wrong. Such as maximum current.
If one capacitor goes faulty, the near short of trying to start a car, could cause the remaining working capacitors to cause the faulty capacitor to do bad things, like catch on fire, explode etc.
Such huge currents, can do bad things.

[spec]

I wonder if a full data sheet is available for the supercaps in your video, or similar.

Like many seemingly attractive components, I have never been able to do a worst case, fully characterized design using supercaps, except for low current applications like backing real time clocks etc. The servicing engineers do not seem to like them either because of the high failure rate.

So I am biased, but after seeing your video, it is obviously time to take another look.

First GaN transistors, now a new look at super caps. I can't keep up with all this.

 

[MK14]

I wonder if a full data sheet is available for the supercaps in your video, or similar.

Like many seemingly attractive components, I have never been able to do a worst case, fully characterized design using supercaps, except for low current applications like backing real time clocks etc. The servicing engineers do not seem to like them either because of the high failure rate.

So I am biased, but after seeing your video, it is obviously time to take another look.

First GaN transistors, now a new look at super caps. I can't keep up with all this.

 

Wow, 3400 Farads!

http://www.maxwell.com/images/documents/K2_2_85V_DS_3000619EN_3_.pdf

A similar 3000F one, is around £57 + VAT.
https://www.tme.eu/gb/details/bcap3000p270k04/supercapacitors/maxwell-technologies/

This one:
https://www.tme.eu/gb/details/bmod0058e016b02/supercapacitors/maxwell-technologies/bmod0058-e016-b02/

For about £142 + VAT, seems to be configured, as a car battery (Max seems to be 16V, and 200Amps) like device, similar to the video, above.

[spec]

Hell. Nice work

I can't remember the details of car battery specifications. But here is an obvious link, with some useful leaders:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_battery

I am trying to establish what the cold cranking specification is. IIRC something like:  zero degC, 1000A, for 32 sec, and minimum terminal voltage of 7.5V. It is hellishly demanding. Just imagine what capacitance would be required to meet that. UPDATE: 72kF (72000F)!

[aargee]

The failing point is our old VW beetle was the electrics when the starter motor sucked all the voltage from the 6V car battery.
I remember, as a kid, Dad had a Eveready 6V lantern battery wired with a switch under the dash that powered the starter electrics (minus the starter motor) and was switched out once started.

[MK14]

Hell. Nice work

I can't remember the details of car battery specifications. But here is an obvious link, with some useful leaders:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_battery

I am trying to establish what the cold cranking specification is. IIRC something like:  zero degC, 1000A, for 32 sec, and minimum terminal voltage of 7.5V. It is hellishly demanding. Just imagine what capacitance would be required to meet that. ( will work it out and update)

I'm guessing here, so could easily be mistaken.
But that car battery like supercapacitor pack, I linked to above. Could be for hybrid car use.
That would then mean there is no extra 12V car battery (nice weight saving, for highly fuel efficient car) to worry about, and the supercapacitors, could easily be recharged from the main electric batteries, ready for each engine start.

[spec]

The failing point is our old VW beetle was the electrics when the starter motor sucked all the voltage from the 6V car battery.
I remember, as a kid, Dad had a Eveready 6V lantern battery wired with a switch under the dash that powered the starter electrics (minus the starter motor) and was switched out once started.

Great story- I remember those *#!** 6V systems, normally with a dynamo and mechanical voltage regulator, on motorcycles too.

Modern cars are such good starters, due to better engine design, better batteries, better starter motors, better oil, and of course better charging systems.

It used to drive me mad trying to get to work on a freezing winters morning: getting into the old banger and pressing the starter button to be greeted with a dull thud and that was that.

[MK14]

The failing point is our old VW beetle was the electrics when the starter motor sucked all the voltage from the 6V car battery.
I remember, as a kid, Dad had a Eveready 6V lantern battery wired with a switch under the dash that powered the starter electrics (minus the starter motor) and was switched out once started.

Many decades ago, car electrics, were a real nightmare, I remember!
It just needs to be raining or cold, or you just need to look at your car in a funny way.
It will then refuse to start, until you spray WD40 all over it, mess with the points, twiggle the spark plug leads, open the distributor cap and blow around it, etc, etc.
Not to mention having to fiddle with the choke, check that the car battery doesn't need distilled water, sometimes needing to keep the car battery charged, using an external charger.

Those were the days!

[MK14]

The failing point is our old VW beetle was the electrics when the starter motor sucked all the voltage from the 6V car battery.
I remember, as a kid, Dad had a Eveready 6V lantern battery wired with a switch under the dash that powered the starter electrics (minus the starter motor) and was switched out once started.

Great story- I remember those *#!** 6V systems, normally with a dynamo and mechanical voltage regulator, on motorcycles too.

Modern cars are such good starters, due to better engine design, better batteries, better starter motors, better oil, and of course better charging systems.

It used to drive me mad trying to get to work on a freezing winters morning: getting into the old banger and pressing the starter button to be greeted with a dull thud and that was that.

The electric (transistorized) ignition systems (around 1970s/80's ?), was the start of stronger more reliable sparks/ignition, and better engine/car running/reliability.

The engine management computers, were a big improvement after that.

Later emissions regulations, hence catalyst converters and lead free petrol/gas, meant fuel injection was standard on all cars (I think). I.e. not just on big engine luxury cars.

The Japanese car industry, also went a long way, into making the cars, considerably more reliable.

[spec]

The failing point is our old VW beetle was the electrics when the starter motor sucked all the voltage from the 6V car battery.
I remember, as a kid, Dad had a Eveready 6V lantern battery wired with a switch under the dash that powered the starter electrics (minus the starter motor) and was switched out once started.

Many decades ago, car electrics, were a real nightmare, I remember!
It just needs to be raining or cold, or you just need to look at your car in a funny way.
It will then refuse to start, until you spray WD40 all over it, mess with the points, twiggle the spark plug leads, open the distributor cap and blow around it, etc, etc.
Not to mention having to fiddle with the choke, check that the car battery doesn't need distilled water, sometimes needing to keep the car battery charged, using an external charger.

Those were the days!

Ha Ha Ha- yes those were the days.

I bet I know what car you are talking about... Mini, right

[Wan Huang Luo]

The failing point is our old VW beetle was the electrics when the starter motor sucked all the voltage from the 6V car battery.
I remember, as a kid, Dad had a Eveready 6V lantern battery wired with a switch under the dash that powered the starter electrics (minus the starter motor) and was switched out once started.

Many decades ago, car electrics, were a real nightmare, I remember!
It just needs to be raining or cold, or you just need to look at your car in a funny way.
It will then refuse to start, until you spray WD40 all over it, mess with the points, twiggle the spark plug leads, open the distributor cap and blow around it, etc, etc.
Not to mention having to fiddle with the choke, check that the car battery doesn't need distilled water, sometimes needing to keep the car battery charged, using an external charger.

Those were the days!

I believe these T-shirts are still on offer:

[MK14]

Ha Ha Ha- yes those were the days.

I bet I know what car you are talking about... Mini, right

Not the Mini. But the same/similar company. I.e. Leyland/Rover and similar British car manufacturers.

What I was saying, was covering many different cars, and people that I knew (including my own cars).

[MK14]

I believe these T-shirts are still on offer:

Therefore I feel obliged to post this image...

[spec]

Hell. Nice work

I can't remember the details of car battery specifications. But here is an obvious link, with some useful leaders:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_battery

I am trying to establish what the cold cranking specification is. IIRC something like:  zero degC, 1000A, for 32 sec, and minimum terminal voltage of 7.5V. It is hellishly demanding. Just imagine what capacitance would be required to meet that. ( will work it out and update)

I'm guessing here, so could easily be mistaken.
But that car battery like supercapacitor pack, I linked to above. Could be for hybrid car use.
That would then mean there is no extra 12V car battery (nice weight saving, for highly fuel efficient car) to worry about, and the supercapacitors, could easily be recharged from the main electric batteries, ready for each engine start.

I think that all cars, conventional, hybrid, and electric can have very sophisticated electronics on board these days, start stop, and regenerative breaking being two.

I vaguely remember that supercaps are used in regenerative breaking, because to their very low ESR. 

[MK14]

I think that all cars, conventional, hybrid, and electric can have very sophisticated electronics on board these days, start stop, and regenerative breaking being two.

I vaguely remember that supercaps are used in regenerative breaking, because to their very low ESR.

That makes sense. Since you know that there will be one braking event (i.e. unlike a car battery, which may need to start a vehicle many times, the car can only be slowed down (braked), to a standstill ONCE, before the next acceleration), and then you can put the energy back into speeding up the vehicle again (assuming vehicle is part/fully electric i.e. motor drive).

[Wan Huang Luo]

Therefore I feel obliged to post this image...

And a personal favorite of mine
I am quite tickled by the bottle of wiring harness replacement smoke.

[MK14]

Therefore I feel obliged to post this image...

And a personal favorite of mine
I am quite tickled by the bottle of wiring harness replacement smoke.

I've never seen that before.
That is just brilliant!         

Thanks. 

[BradC]

I always thought the British predilection for warm beer was because Lucas once made refrigerators.

I used to think Lucas electrics were the work of the devil until I bought a Ford era parts-bin special Landrover. They make Lucas look positively reliable.

[vk6zgo]

The failing point is our old VW beetle was the electrics when the starter motor sucked all the voltage from the 6V car battery.
I remember, as a kid, Dad had a Eveready 6V lantern battery wired with a switch under the dash that powered the starter electrics (minus the starter motor) and was switched out once started.

Many decades ago, car electrics, were a real nightmare, I remember!
It just needs to be raining or cold, or you just need to look at your car in a funny way.
It will then refuse to start, until you spray WD40 all over it, mess with the points, twiggle the spark plug leads, open the distributor cap and blow around it, etc, etc.
Not to mention having to fiddle with the choke, check that the car battery doesn't need distilled water, sometimes needing to keep the car battery charged, using an external charger.

Those were the days!

Mainly a problem with British cars, though!
I remember driving a Landrover through a puddle, & the splashed water killed the ignition.
This on a vehicle touted as "go anywhere"!
They fixed things on the 6 cylinder model, though, as the distributor was mounted up high.

That said, I had driven my Holden Station wagon through creeks without a problem, & its distributor was mounted low.
It wasn't made by Joseph Lucas "the Prince of Darkness", though!

[MK14]

Mainly a problem with British cars, though!

You have got to be joking me!
The British cars had lots of things, which are well known, to generate good quality, highly well built cars.

For Example:
Huge British Government mishandling interference involvement,
Great Union involvement, with strikes and managing to get the workers, to be very negative and dis-interested in making good/quality cars.
Committees, in those aforementioned organisations.
Then the quality/reliable, parts, mentioned below ...

It wasn't made by Joseph Lucas "the Prince of Darkness", though!

[The following, is shamelessly copied from http://ntnoa.org/LucasSmoke.htm]

Look, Lucas made all these inventions and innovations, such a long time ago, such as ...

Patent holder for the short circuit.
Inventor of the first intermittent wiper.
Inventor of the self-dimming headlamp.
The Original Anti-Theft Device - Lucas Electrics.
If Lucas made guns, wars would not start.
Back in the '70s, Lucas decided to diversify its product line and began manufacturing vacuum cleaners. It was the only product they offered which did not suck.

As I said, the list of inventions, comes from http://ntnoa.org/LucasSmoke.htm

Which is well worth a quick read, as it has a very funny technical explanation, as to why the Lucas Electrics were so good/bad.

[Berni]

Yes supercapacitors could make sense for hybrid or electric cars if it was not for one thing.

Current electric cars such as the Tesla, Volt etc. All have a normal 12V lead acid battery along with the giant pile of lithium cells that actually store energy. The reason for this is that all the other electrical doodads i the car still run from 12V. Like the lights, dash, AC fans, wipers, window defroster etc... In place of an alternator is simply a DC/DC converter that turns the 300V or something off the main pack into 12V to charge the battery.

Where the problem is that for safety reasons the main lithium battery is disconnected from the car with giant relay contractors inside the battery pack. You need to apply 12V to those contractors before you get power from the main pack. So the 12V battery has to support all the little loads around the car such as the keyfob, alarm etc. when the car is off and this is why it still needs a good amount of capacity in it.

I have seen cases in electric cars where there ware problems with this 12V systems (bad battery, large parasitic drain of a component etc..) In such cases the car is completely dead, unable to be unlocked or even the emergency brake released so it could be towed. I seen a case where this happened during driving. Once the 12V bus dropped too far the electronics shut off and disconected the main battery pack. This happened to one guy on a hill at night, leaving the driver with no lights, no power steering, no brake assist and no way to start the car back up.

[spec]

Current electric cars such as the Tesla, Volt  no brake assist and no way to start the car back up.

Didn't know that- I'm baffled by the reasoning though. After all, you can get Lixxx batteries to replace lead acid for normal cars, motorcycles, lawn mowers, etc

Lucus equipment was a nightmare but did you have any experience of Wipak?

[MK14]

Yes supercapacitors could make sense for hybrid or electric cars if it was not for one thing.

I suspect, that if the car was designed from the start, with the intention to have one or two supercapacitor banks, and the main batteries only. I.e. no 12V battery, it could be done.
There could be two supercapacitor banks, for reliability/safety.
When the 12V supercapacitor banks, are running too low, the main batteries could trickle more electricity back into them, via the voltage converter.

Since I don't know all the details/specifications and safety regulations/requirements etc. There could easily be one, or several reasons, why this is not possible/practicable/safe.

At some point, the Lead in lead acid batteries, may be considered too hazardous. Because, apparently, they get sent to (typically) third world countries for recycling, but some of the lead, causes lead poisoning in those countries, affecting way too many people over there.
So, the EU and/or US and/or Rest of the world, may decide to phase out lead acid batteries (speculation on my part).

Similar to how at around 2040, many countries are banning Petrol/Diesel/Gas engines from cars, (mains) Filament bulbs are already outlawed in some parts of the world, such as the EU. Plastic bags, are beginning to be outlawed and/or being considered bad for the environment.
Lead is already banned from most electronics, in a number of parts of the world, such as the EU.
Mercury is mostly long gone.
Asbestos, WAS long gone, until Mr clever clogs (to avoid political discussion, name left out), decided bringing it back, would make America great again.

[Berni]

Yeah the main reason for the 12V battery is that everything in the car didn't have to be redesigned, they simply reuse all the parts from petrol cars. But still there would have to be some sort of 12V bus in a car for safety reasons, you wouldn't want everything running from 300V.

Lead acid batteries are probably not going away all that soon. They are still the cheapest type of battery in terms of Wh per dollar, don't need any fancy electronics to look after them and they can't catch fire. They are very attractive for UPS setups as they have a long lifetime if looked after. They are also the worlds most recyclable battery type. They just dump these batteries directly into a crusher, thow the junk into water to wash out the acid and get the plastic parts to float to the top. Whatever stays at the bottom is melted down and then separated back into lead and copper. It is a pretty dirty process still but at least you can turn a dead old battery into a brand new battery with minimal extra materials (Keep in mind making new metals is also a dirty job). Other types of batteries mostly end up in landfills once they are dead.

[MK14]

Articles like the following. Seem to say that it is badly affecting, a significant number of people, in the developing world.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/oct/25/backyard-battery-recycling-is-biggest-chemical-polluter-for-poorer-nations

The backyard recycling of lead-acid car batteries is the number one source of chemical pollution in the world’s poorer nations and leads to millions of years of healthy life being lost, according to a new report.

[vk6zgo]

Mainly a problem with British cars, though!

You have got to be joking me!
The British cars had lots of things, which are well known, to generate good quality, highly well built cars.

For Example:
Huge British Government mishandling interference involvement,
Great Union involvement, with strikes and managing to get the workers, to be very negative and dis-interested in making good/quality cars.
Committees, in those aforementioned organisations.
Then the quality/reliable, parts, mentioned below ...

It wasn't made by Joseph Lucas "the Prince of Darkness", though!

[The following, is shamelessly copied from http://ntnoa.org/LucasSmoke.htm]

Look, Lucas made all these inventions and innovations, such a long time ago, such as ...

Patent holder for the short circuit.
Inventor of the first intermittent wiper.
Inventor of the self-dimming headlamp.
The Original Anti-Theft Device - Lucas Electrics.
If Lucas made guns, wars would not start.
Back in the '70s, Lucas decided to diversify its product line and began manufacturing vacuum cleaners. It was the only product they offered which did not suck.

As I said, the list of inventions, comes from http://ntnoa.org/LucasSmoke.htm

Which is well worth a quick read, as it has a very funny technical explanation, as to why the Lucas Electrics were so good/bad.

That said, cars made in other countries did have their own delights.
The Holden wagon I referred to did have a few "teething" troubles:-

The Bosch generator had an "out of round" commutator, which, strangely enough, didn't do anything to harm itself, but the intermittent operation used to kill the regulator.
After I "pinned the problem down" to the " gennie", a "mate of a mate " spun it down to circular on his home lathe--- no more problem from that source.

In their wisdom GMH fitted the power jet from the previous (lower powered) model to the carby.
This was usually OK, but stopped the thing idling properly, & it would sometimes hesitate on acceleration.
I bought the update kit, fitted the right jet, no more problems.

The clutch was too light, & would wear out very quickly--- fitted the bigger pressure & driven plates from a higher powered model .

After that, it was incredibly reliable
Start? On the coldest mornings (ice on the windscreen type of thing), just a quick tap of the accelerator, then turn the key --- never had to use the choke.

During the clutch adventures, I bought an old Morris Minor as a second car.
It was pretty reasonable at starting, but had the occasional problem.

Its "party trick" was to do with the dip switch.

You are barreling along at night on high beam, and see another car coming, so dutifully, dip.

Suddenly, you have no lights!

Frantically you hit the switch again

This time, you hit the oncoming bloke with both your high & low filaments on together.

He gets stroppy as hell, & hits you with his high beam & his driving lights!

Eventually, you get low beam back, & cringe all the way home.

You take the switch out, test it every which way----- no fault.
Back it goes, to work its magic some other time.

It also had a "A.C." Electrical fuel pump which was another delight.

Over the years, I had a number of "pommy" cars, with the electrical system always being their "Achilles Heel".
I mean, I would have put up with all the other dumb stuff, if only they would start properly!

If I & other users could see the failings in Lucas stuff, why the hell couldn't they?

All they had to do was buy a few units from other manufacturers with a better reputation (Bosch in the case of Oz) ----- not Marelli-----Oh God! Not Marelli!
They could have pulled them apart, & found out what they were doing right, & conversely, what "the Prince" was doing wrong!

[MK14]

You're right, a car failing to start, is one of the worse things it can do. Very annoying, and a real pain in the neck.

I think I've heard a similar story. About other, vintage (now, although obviously, you are referring to owning the car, while it was still current) cars. If you research their issues, and fix the various problems. You can end up with a pretty decent and reliable, collectors car.
I've seen that on some of those car restoration programmes.
E.g. The starter motor or alternator, was too weak and/or of poor quality, so a more modern or much better (vintage) one gets fitted, solving that weakness in the car.

You mentioned about the manufacturing issues (at least perceived), at Lucas.

My suspicion/guess, would be that part of it, is that the British Management, of the 1960s/70s (especially), was probably of somewhat less than optimal quality. I wounder if that, was a significant factor.

Another factor, could be that in the period after world war 2. I.e. (1945/6 onwards) later/late 1940s and 1950s, Britain, had been essentially bankrupted, run down and was rather short of some supplies.
A number of factories and other infrastructure, had been damaged or destroyed, during the second world war.
So, that may have had an impact (including a psychological one), in the 1950s and perhaps later than that.

Part of running a well oiled and efficient business, must surely be good communications, throughout the company. So my suspicion, is that, management (British), did not perhaps have the best of communication structures, especially compared to other countries.

[spec]

If I & other users could see the failings in Lucas stuff, why the hell couldn't they?

All they had to do was buy a few units from other manufacturers with a better reputation (Bosch in the case of Oz) ----- not Marelli-----Oh God! Not Marelli!
They could have pulled them apart, & found out what they were doing right, & conversely, what "the Prince" was doing wrong!

You have got to the crux of the matter here. You seem to think that the company has the capability or mechanism for such feedback. I have worked in the electronics industry for a long time and I can assure you that no such mechanism exists.

Most companies are far to busy meeting financial targets, having meetings and doing other management things. Out of all the thousands of employees maybe 10%, if you are lucky would be involved with the actual product. Most wouln't know what the product is. In fact the product and customers often get in the way of a well run company.

[spec]

Its "party trick" was to do with the dip switch.

You are barreling along at night on high beam, and see another car coming, so dutifully, dip.

Suddenly, you have no lights!

Frantically you hit the switch again

This time, you hit the oncoming bloke with both your high & low filaments on together.

He gets stroppy as hell, & hits you with his high beam & his driving lights!

Eventually, you get low beam back, & cringe all the way home.

You take the switch out, test it every which way----- no fault.
Back it goes, to work its magic some other time.

That reminds me of a similar experience: The handlebar dip switch on my Matchless G2 was always playing up, probably Lucas, so I bought a Wipak dipping switch. It was expensive but looked the part so it was worth it. And it was absolute luxury: no flickering lights or intermittent action.

About a month later I was nearing the end of a 150 mile trip. I was on a country road. It was a cold moonless night in December and there were no lights apart from the bike's headlight. The engine was throbbing away and the bike was going at a steady 60 MPH and soon I would be back home in front of a nice warm fire. All was well with the world.

Then it happened- there was a bright flash from the handlebars... no light. In fact pitch black, just as if you had been blindfolded. But all was well. I had a good idea where the road went. And then it happened. The bike shot into the air and landed on top of my leg so I couldn't hardly move. I laid there for about 20 minutes when I saw car lights. It was cop car and the cops were great. They drove me to the police station at Newmaket and put me in a cell for the night. And would you believe it, in the morning this nice lady brought me bacon and eggs for breakfast.

I got back to the bike and found that it had come off the road and gone up a bank of soil running alongside the road.

[spec]

I bought an old Morris Minor as a second car.
It was pretty reasonable at starting, but had the occasional problem.

The Morris Minor was a treasured possession for many owners in the 1950s and 60s, but boy did they rust. The worst thing though is that the front swivel pins used to snap with the result that the front wheel would leap out of the wheel arch so that the car looked like a duck landing on a frozen pond.

While driving to work one morning we came across the remains of minor that had lost its front swivel pin. It left a huge circular gouge in the tarmac and was wrapped around a tree. We found out that the driver was in a pretty bad way.