Latest eBay Selling Experience

[n45048]

I just thought I'd share my latest experience selling a rather expensive item on eBay so hopefully others can cover their ass and avoid potential problems themselves.

I sold some camera mounting gear and ended up with just 1 bid (it was pretty specialised gear so it wasn't ever going to drum up any significant interest anyway). The item sold for AUD$800 which is still half the price of a second-hand product from B&H Photo & Video. The address of the successful bidder was listed as being in Romania. This started to ring some alarm bells straight away (not that I have anything against Romanians but something just didn't sit right).

In any case, the bidder paid for the item using Paypal and a few messages were sent back and forth. I confirmed with him twice whether he wanted to pay extra for insurance against loss or damage during transit. Both times this was declined. Fair enough, that's his call. I made sure I read up on both eBay and PayPal seller protection policies to ensure I had covered myself in case this guy tries to claim the package never arrived.

Some time later, the item was delivered and I get a message from the buyer claiming that a part was missing. Coincidentally the part that was "missing" happened to be the most expensive, heaviest and bulkiest part of the entire system. I called Australia Post and DHL who confirmed that the entire weight of the package hadn't changed the entire way through the delivery process and that weight matches the combined weight of the components plus a bit extra for packaging.

I knew this guy was full of it so armed with this information, plus his signature accepting delivery of the package and that fact that he had declined insurance, I explained to him that I won't be processing any refunds or discounts and that if he had an issue, he should take it up directly with DHL in Romania.

The next day, the "missing" part was magically found inside the box (even a blind person would have found it first go). He left positive feedback on my eBay profile and that was that. A positive outcome for me. Turned out he just wanted something for nothing and was willing to lie about it.

I guess the points I'd like to make are:

• Read and familiarise yourself with the eBay and PayPal seller protection policies before sending anything. If you don't comply with them and the buyer claims they hadn't received an item, they can lodge a claim to have their money refunded through PayPal, leaving you out of pocket.
• Always use a shipping product that allows for end-to-end tracking and a signature upon delivery (this is required as per the policy).
• Take photographs of the packed item(s) before sealing the box.
• Shipping receipts must show the destination address. Keep a copy of them!
• The seller is not responsible for loss or damage during shipment if the buyer declines insurance. Don't pay for this out of your own pocket.
• Only ever send items to the address shown on the buyers PayPal account (not the eBay account). If you send it anywhere else and the buyer makes a claim, the refund will be honoured in favour of the buyer.
  
• The seller is not required to honour returns or refunds for auction items if the buyer changes their mind however sellers may be bound by consumer law for 'Buy it now' listings.
• Go with your gut instinct. If something doesn't seem right, it probably isn't.

[nctnico]

• The seller is not responsible for loss or damage during shipment if the buyer declines insurance. Don't pay for this out of your own pocket.

I doubt this very much. Usually the sender is responsible for the package getting delivered because the sender is the one who has a contract with a postal service or courier. Many people tend to forget that they are basically hiring someone to bring an item from A to B. BTW: When sending expensive items I don't even offer to send it without insurance!

[n45048]

• The seller is not responsible for loss or damage during shipment if the buyer declines insurance. Don't pay for this out of your own pocket.

I doubt this very much. Usually the sender is responsible for the package getting delivered because the sender is the one who has a contract with a postal service or courier. Many people tend to forget that they are basically hiring someone to bring an item from A to B. BTW: When sending expensive items I don't even offer to send it without insurance!

The sender is not responsible for anything that happens to the package once it's accepted by a carrier and why should they be? Provided reasonable steps were taken to protect the contents against damage then anything further is beyond the sellers control. It might be a different story if you just throw it in a box and not give a toss.

I make it clear in all my listing that postage does not include insurance against loss or damage unless the buyer specifically requests it. Even then, I confirm with them in writing after the listing closes.

The eBay 'Money Back Guarantee' covers buyers for items that are different to what was described in the listing. The policy clearly states that "items damaged during pick-up or postage or not delivered when the buyer arranges pick-up or delivery of the item (for instance, the buyer arranges freight)." is not covered.

The PayPal policies are full of indemnity clauses such as: "If you have a dispute with one or more users, you release us, our Related Bodies Corporate, employees, agents and directors from any and all claims, demands and damages (actual and consequential) of every kind and nature arising out of or in any way connected with such disputes."

You'll find that eBay or PayPal won't touch anything to do with damage during shipment, especially after the buyer declines insurance and accepts the risk. It's like car insurance, I pay for it to cover myself against damage caused by others beyond my control.

As a seller, I am not required to provide insurance against loss or damage, the carrier won't accept liability if it's not paid so the responsibility falls on the buyer.

[nctnico]

And yet local laws may say otherwise. For example: In the NL the sender is definitely responsible for a package until the recipient signs for it.
Remember: the law doesn't care what Ebay thinks they should cover or not.

I also think that you misread the terms. It says that 'when the buyer arranges...'. If you send something then you arrange the shipping so the part you quoted doesn't apply. I think you are completely wrong here!

[n45048]

And yet local laws may say otherwise. For example: In the NL the sender is definitely responsible for a package until the recipient signs for it.
Remember: the law doesn't care what Ebay thinks they should cover or not.

Yep you're right, local laws trump any corporate policy. But take the time to read the wording of the law, I wouldn't be surprised if there are exceptions to the rule.

I also think that you misread the terms. It says that 'when the buyer arranges...'. If you send something then you arrange the shipping so the part you quoted doesn't apply.

I didn't misread; That's just one example of the policy specifically addressing the issue. I've looked and can't find anything that places responsibility on the seller when the seller arranges shipping. I dare say there will be wording somewhere in the user acceptance agreement that protects eBay in such a case.

[cosmicray]

People who have sold online for a while take the position that insurance is there to protect the seller, not the buyer. If the unfortunate event involves fraud, then insurance may not cover that.

Some shipping services include a nominal amount of coverage. That amount does not cover higher value items. Companies who ship huge volumes may even self-insure or have blanket coverage, as the cost of buying insurance for each single package can add up very quickly.

Some payment networks (e.g. PP) may provide some coverage for the seller, provided the seller did everything correctly, and acted in good faith. This is highly subjective.

[n45048]

People who have sold online for a while take the position that insurance is there to protect the seller, not the buyer. If the unfortunate event involves fraud, then insurance may not cover that.

I have in the past automatically added insurance onto items (and of course that cost is passed onto the buyer). A number of times buyers have asked to remove it to lower shipping costs and that's fine, it's their prerogative to do so. But the onus is put back on them if they want to accept the risk.

[VictoriaGuy]

Off-topic, but...
I recently had a buying experience on eBay that showed me some sellers are accustomed to blaming the shipping company (in this case USPS) for defective items.
Item was a 'scope (later I found a blown electrolytic in the display board) which was advertised as working properly but didn't display properly on arrival. Very poor packing to boot - heavy scope in a light cardboard box with one layer of thin bubble wrap around it - it was sliding around in the box.
I informed the seller and he immediately filed a claim with USPS for shipping damage. I think this was partly to use the long investigation period to delay the need for refund. Seller also was trying to enlist me into co-operating with this scheme.
So buyers need to beware of sellers as well.
BTW- everybody knows that if the buyer gets a refund through Ebay (even a partial refund), that feedback is disallowed on the transaction - right? So the seller can carry on with a 100% postitive feedback rating, no matter how many times he's had to refund?

[n45048]

Poor packing really peeves me off. Even if they have to charge me a bit extra in shipping, I'd rather pay it than end up with a broken product.

I find that it's not just about the lies and the 'bending of the truth' that people write in eBay listings but what they omit as well. For example: A guy had an old computer from the 1980's he was selling. He had some photos of the inside, which was good. They weren't particularly high res but gave you a good indication of the state of the machine and what components were installed inside it.

I asked him if he could kindly pop the cover off and take a photo around the CMOS battery (as those soldered in NiCad's almost always leaked and corroded nearby tracks and components). He got really defensive and asked me why rather than just doing it. I explained to him the battery issue and he "assured" me that there was no corrosion. My reply to that was "So no photo then?". Needless to say I got no reply after that. ;-)

[wraper]

The sender is not responsible for anything that happens to the package once it's accepted by a carrier and why should they be? Provided reasonable steps were taken to protect the contents against damage then anything further is beyond the sellers control. It might be a different story if you just throw it in a box and not give a toss.

Where did you get that?
Straight from ebay:

Information for sellers
The item you sold was lost or damaged in shipping.
If you insured the package with ShipCover on eBay, you can file a claim directly from My eBay.
If you used FedEx SmartPost, find the original FedEx SmartPost shipping label in My eBay > Sold > Shipping Labels and open the SmartPost claim form. Follow the onscreen directions to submit your claim.
For other situations, contact the shipping company or insurance company directly to file a claim.
Even if you didn't insure the item, you're still responsible for the item until the buyer receives it.

[n45048]

Even if you didn't insure the item, you're still responsible for the item until the buyer receives it.

And once the buyer receives it (in whatever state it's in) then I'm no longer responsible apparently.

That short bit of 'advice' on that help page isn't backed up by any policy that I can see. As long as I can prove that it arrived at the destination, then I'm covered as a seller.

The only way around it I can see is if the receiver checks the contents before taking delivery of the item and refuses to sign for it if it's damaged.

In any case, questions will be asked why the buyer understood the risk but refused to insure it anyway. As per both eBay and PayPal policies, they'll wipe their hands of it unless it's a consumer law issue, otherwise it becomes a civil matter. The eBay Buyer Protection also only applies if the item was paid for using Paypal, they may honour a refund to the buyer, but it's highly doubtful they would make the seller wear it as well unless blame was clearly with the seller. eBay aren't in the business to piss off their customers so chances are they'll absorb the cost in that kind of situation. They rake in more than enough from fees and charges.

From the eBay Money Back Guarantee document:

If a buyer didn't get an item, or received something that wasn't what was described in the listing (for example, they ordered a red t-shirt and got a green one) and we have no reason to believe the buyer's claim is fraudulent, eBay may give the buyer their money back.
?If a seller can prove that the issue wasn't their fault (providing proof that an item was delivered, or that the item sent was as described in the listing), any refund issued to the buyer is on us.
?If a seller can't provide satisfactory evidence that an item was delivered or that it was as described, the seller will need to reimburse us for the refund.

[tggzzz]

The sender is not responsible for anything that happens to the package once it's accepted by a carrier and why should they be? Provided reasonable steps were taken to protect the contents against damage then anything further is beyond the sellers control. It might be a different story if you just throw it in a box and not give a toss.

That second and third sentence imply the first sentence isn't very useful.

[tggzzz]

And yet local laws may say otherwise. For example: In the NL the sender is definitely responsible for a package until the recipient signs for it.
Remember: the law doesn't care what Ebay thinks they should cover or not.

Yep you're right, local laws trump any corporate policy. But take the time to read the wording of the law, I wouldn't be surprised if there are exceptions to the rule.

But there's much ambiguity as to which "local laws" apply. Consider the effect on lawyer's bank balances if the item is sent from country A to country B using a payment platform in country X, auction site in country Y and couriers in country Z.

[george graves]

I sold my $25,000 video editing setup on ebay for 1/4 what I paid for it.  Custom workstation, dongles, and custom hardware/software(avid).  Sent via FedEx - weighted in at just under 50 pounds with the workstation and external break outs.  It got "lost".

With tracking end to end....and FedEx loosing it, I didn't have to prove a thing. Two phone calls and I was in the clear.  That was years ago.

Recently, I've also sold $10 items, and when someone claims they didn't receive it, I had to refund them.  Despite me paying for tracking end-to-end.

It's all about the buyer now on ebay.

If you're smart, you'll block sales to a lot of countries.

For example, I block Mexico, and Italy.  Cause I know there customs are so backed up that shipping can take months.  Brazil, cause 50% of packages never get there.

[Tandy]

I tend to restrict my eBay sales to my country only so as to avoid the headache associated with sending things overseas. If it is a valuable item then I ONLY offer an insured delivery service and set the delivery price accordingly. It probably reduces the number of bids but saves a lot of headaches in the long run.

[dannyf]

Turned out he just wanted something for nothing and was willing to lie about it.

Unless you have a degree in remotely reading minds, I would say that imposing your conjecture of someone's state of mind as a matter of fact reflects nothing negative about him/her and hugely negative about you.

[nctnico]

As others have said the seller is responsible for making sure the item arrives intact with the buyer when selling to people in the EU.

As far as the EU law goes, this applies only when a business is selling goods to individual persons (ie. for personal, not business purposes). Member states may extend this condition to other kinds of transactions, so the local law where the seller is based applies.

Still you need to apply common sense here:
What if you buy something from person A. Person A then has person B deliver it to you. Person B loses the item. Who are you going to complain to? Since you have no business with person B you are going to complain to person A ofcourse!

Unfortunately some people are dumb enough to fall for the 'divide and conquer' scheme put in play by person A and start to complain to person B. Person B points back to person A ofcourse and vice versa.

[wraper]

Even if you didn't insure the item, you're still responsible for the item until the buyer receives it.

And once the buyer receives it (in whatever state it's in) then I'm no longer responsible apparently.

Good luck selling on Ebay more than handful of items with such approach. You will be screwed very soon. Both on money and feedback/rating.

[cosmicray]

Even if you didn't insure the item, you're still responsible for the item until the buyer receives it.

Which is why I avoid eBay's Global Shipping Program. I have minor issues in-country, but once you involve more than one postal service, then things can get messy. I will sell thru a reshipper, provided that the reshipper is also handling payment clearance.

[Corporate666]

I sell a ton of stuff on eBay (few thousand items a year) and I have probably shipped to just about every country and had every type of claim raised.

Bottom line is...

-Seller is responsible for making sure the item arrives to the buyer.  If the buyer chooses a shipping service without insurance or proof of delivery, even if the buyer declined to take insurance or the seller told them it was uninsured, the buyer will win any claim on the basis of item not received.

-As far as items being claimed as arriving broken or not as described, in most cases the buyer is required to ship the item back to the seller with few exceptions.  This is great for a seller because it encourages buyers not to try to rip sellers of this way, when they realize they will have to pay to ship it back

-The claims above about local laws are irrelevant.  It doesn't matter what the law is in the EU or what it is in Holland or France or Syria or anywhere else... unless the seller is in that same jurisdiction, your laws don't mean a thing.  The requirement that the package arrive to the buyer is nothing to do with EU law, but rather eBay policy.  eBay policy is heavily weighted towards buyers because they don't really give a shit about sellers at all.  There are always new sellers willing and ready to sell on eBay, but they need the buyers to keep coming back again and again.

[n45048]

Turned out he just wanted something for nothing and was willing to lie about it.

Unless you have a degree in remotely reading minds, I would say that imposing your conjecture of someone's state of mind as a matter of fact reflects nothing negative about him/her and hugely negative about you.

Oh dannyf, any opportunity to be a smart arse on this forum and you're there.

It's called a hunch and deductive reasoning. In order for this guy not to find this particular item in box meant he was either lying or was looking inside a totally different box. Then when I challenged him with the fact I had photographs of the contents before shipping and confirmation of the shipping weight up until the point he signed for it, then "oh would you look at that, it was there all along!".

The particular part he was initially "missing" consumed about 40% of the total weight and about 50% of the total size of the packaging.

Of course there is the slim chance that this guy was just a complete moron and had no malicious intent, but I just don't buy it.

Now, although my crystal ball is taking forever to get serviced and my Degree in Remote Mind Reading is useless without it, I'd suggest you go be a troll elsewhere. There is enough junk posted in this forum without having to filter out your white noise as well.

Good luck selling on Ebay more than handful of items with such approach. You will be screwed very soon. Both on money and feedback/rating.

My feedback is currently over 170 with a "top seller" standing. I must be doing something right? Of the very few claims I've had, I've never had one adversely impact me, simply by following the policy. A trap for new players is tracking is all well and good, but there must be a signature at the other end.

[macboy]

Turned out he just wanted something for nothing and was willing to lie about it.

Unless you have a degree in remotely reading minds, I would say that imposing your conjecture of someone's state of mind as a matter of fact reflects nothing negative about him/her and hugely negative about you.

Ignore the troll ^

[GreyWoolfe]

Turned out he just wanted something for nothing and was willing to lie about it.

Unless you have a degree in remotely reading minds, I would say that imposing your conjecture of someone's state of mind as a matter of fact reflects nothing negative about him/her and hugely negative about you.

Ignore the troll ^

+1, if you don't feed the trolls, they will go and find greener pastures.

[n45048]

+1, if you don't feed the trolls, they will go and find greener pastures.

As annoying as some of them can be, you have to admit, it's a bit of fun watching them dig their own holes. ;-)

As John Cleese once said: "I think the problem with people like this is that they are so stupid that they have no idea how stupid they are. You see, if you are very, very stupid how can you possibly realise that you’re very, very stupid?”