LED bulbs experience? Do they last as declared?

[nardev]

I came across this article: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2546363/The-great-LED-lightbulb-rip-One-four-expensive-long-life-bulbs-doesnt-like-long-makers-claim.html

Basically saying what i felt for a long time. LED bulbs is not as good as marketed.

1. i have feeling that intensity is decreasing over the time
2. i still couldn't find any LED bulb that gives as pleasant light as halogen bulbs.

Halogen bulbs maybe spend the most energy in average but i would rather save energy in heating and cooling than my eyes.

What is your experience, opinion with lights and what kind of bulb do you prefer ?

[Fsck]

isn't it more of the case of manufacturers cheaping out like they usually do?

[NiHaoMike]

Go with good quality LEDs. Granted, "cheap" LEDs do last if you derate them, but they do sometimes have issues with poor spectrum.

[nardev]

isn't it more of the case of manufacturers cheaping out like they usually do?

probably..

i love my eyes a lot... so i keep looking for the artificial light closest to natural...?? so far, only halogen bulbs.

[cimmo]

I buy cheap eBay sourced Chinese LED lamps, 240v B22 (or E27 with adaptors) and 12V MR16 fittings. Almost the entire house is lit this way. No single lamp has cost me more that about $9AUD total.

For general room lighting the cool white are very harsh looking and avoided, warm is better. OTOH, cool/pure white in a focused fitting is good for detail work. Unfortunately it seems that the production process resulting in 'binning' of the ideal colour temperature (~4500K) means that the cheaper LED lamps do not have chips of this colour temperature. You can get a good light quality by using an E27 double adaptor with a mix of one cool (~6000K) LED lamp and one warm (~3500K) lamp. This also goes a long way to filling the gap in spectral response of the phosphors and means that the heat dissipation for the same equivalent light level is split over two lower rated lamps.
And it makes an interesting looking chandelier.

The higher power LED lamps (>~7 watts?) seem  to be less reliable because of heat related issues. I had one 9W (3x3W) focused LED lamp fail because the manufacturer cheaped out and omitted the screws holding the LED package to the heatsink. It was only held in place by the plastic lens assembly and over time it melted this plastic, opening a gap between the LED plate and the heatsink. Anyway, it only cost about $6 and it is repairable for a cost of $2.

But I have had several in normal intermittent service for 3+ years with no failures or degradation. One is on permanently (I have a kitchen with one very small window) and has been running for nearly 2 years now and at 3W it costs nearly nothing.

[Fsck]

they usually use cheapest possible LEDs and the cheapest possible driver circuit as well as the bare amount of heatsinking required.

[David_AVD]

I've started replacing the lamps at home with LED types.  It's taken a while to find suitable units for downlights, ceiling fans and range hood.

As for colour temperature, I hated the look of the 4000K types.  The 2700K ones are a little too yellow for my liking so I settled on 3000K units and am happy with them.

I plan to keep track of any failures as part of a blog page I'm going.

[nardev]

So far it seems like nobody is using halogen bulbs? I simply can't make any combination to replace my 300W lamp, reflecting light from ceiling.

[cimmo]

So far it seems like nobody is using halogen bulbs? I simply can't make any combination to replace my 300W lamp, reflecting light from ceiling.

What about this?
In the second very stopped down image you can see the colour temperature mix.

[JonnyBoats]

From what I understand a major contributor to shortened service life is heat. Generally the screw-in LED bulbs sold here in the USA as replacements for traditional bulbs are designed to operate with their base down and in free air.

If you operate them otherwise, life may be greatly diminished.

[CaptnYellowShirt]

From what I understand a major contributor to shortened service life is heat. Generally the screw-in LED bulbs sold here in the USA as replacements for traditional bulbs are designed to operate with their base down and in free air.

If you operate them otherwise, life may be greatly diminished.

That's what I've heard too. Heat kills.

[Fsck]

From what I understand a major contributor to shortened service life is heat. Generally the screw-in LED bulbs sold here in the USA as replacements for traditional bulbs are designed to operate with their base down and in free air.

If you operate them otherwise, life may be greatly diminished.

That's what I've heard too. Heat kills.

correct. it's their failure of enough heatsinking. It's the cause of their crappy service life.

[SeanB]

For a long time i have been using a 160W mercury blended lamp for lighting, and changed over to 70W metal halide lighting as an alternative. Then bought some 7/9W Chinese LED lamps, and threw the casing away and used a bigger heatsink ( old Intel P4 stock circular coolers without the fan) to build them into a lamp housing. That now runs at barely above body temperature, as opposed to the original running at 90C.

I have some 5mm near UV leds running at 10mA, and after 6 months of running 24/7 they are barely illuminating, really bad lumen degradation. Now looking for some 3W single chip dies, I need to make a decent UV torch. I am modifying some old Surefire torches ( anybody want the incandescent lamp blocks out of them, still work as the battery dies) to fit the LED pucks in when I find some, along with the 18650 cell and a protection circuit and led driver.

[miguelvp]

The problem is not the LEDs, it's the circuitry they use to drive it. Same thing as the cold cathode CFLs, something in the board gives before the actual cold cathode tube. (I have a night stand lamp running on batteries with spare CFL tubes sans the circuit board).

[Kjelt]

Each led bulb/fixture should have a decent spec with it not only x hours but also how many times switching on/off (capacitor issue) and the statistical values which look something like in the quote below. All reputable led firms have these numbers on their product, in the catalogue or box. If a led seller does not have these numbers you can already know they have no quality dept. or any quality testing/assurance.

I can tell from experience that good leds with proper electronics and fixture (cooling) can easily do 25000 hours. The pro led lighting for offices sold today in 60cmx60cm tiles as for instance could be seen in the Light and Building in Frankfurt use low/medium power leds mounted on a normal pcb (not aluminium pcb) and do not even have to be cooled that much more then a simple thin alu fixture plate.

So to be short it is the same as with all other stuff Garbage In Garbage Out.

Life time, lumen maintenance and failure rate

The L value: the light output of an LED Module decreases over the lifetime, this is characterized with the L value. L70 means that the LED module will give 70 % of its initial luminous flux. This value is always related to the number of operation hours and therefore defines the lifetime of an LED module.
As the L value is a statistical value and the lumen maintenace may vary over the delivered LED modules.

The B value defines the amount of modules which are below the specific L value, e.g. L70B10 means 10 % of the LED modules are below 70 % of the inital luminous flux, respectivly 90 % will be above 70 % of the initial value.

The C valueThe percentage of failed modules (fatal failure).

The F value is the combination of the B and C value. That means for F degradation complete failures are considered, e.g. L70F10 means 10 % of the LED modules may fail or be below 70 % of the initial luminous flux.

[EEVblog]

Halogens have an ideal CRI (Colour Rendering Index) because of the black body radiation due to the heating of an element. LEDs will never match this, but the good ones can come close.
But this is usually only an issue in very specific studio photography or such work.

[brabus]

So far it seems like nobody is using halogen bulbs? I simply can't make any combination to replace my 300W lamp, reflecting light from ceiling.

Here I am!
In my house you can find only halogen bulbs (excluding a neon in the flat bathroom light), including a dimmable 300W light in my room.

You know what? I think it is more ecological -at the moment- to keep using normal bulbs, than buying cheap LEDs that will become dangerous trash in matter of months (if not weeks).

A bulb is... a bulb. When it dies, it's plainly glass and a bit of metal -> almost no hazard for the environment.
Do we want to consider also the production costs (in terms of energy)? I think that normal bulbs are still invincible also regarding this aspect.

So, in my properties: beware of LEDs! The only one you can see are on the standby light of my TV and stereo.

[Fsck]

So far it seems like nobody is using halogen bulbs? I simply can't make any combination to replace my 300W lamp, reflecting light from ceiling.

Here I am!
In my house you can find only halogen bulbs (excluding a neon in the flat bathroom light), including a dimmable 300W light in my room.

You know what? I think it is more ecological -at the moment- to keep using normal bulbs, than buying cheap LEDs that will become dangerous trash in matter of months (if not weeks).

A bulb is... a bulb. When it dies, it's plainly glass and a bit of metal -> almost no hazard for the environment.
Do we want to consider also the production costs (in terms of energy)? I think that normal bulbs are still invincible also regarding this aspect.

So, in my properties: beware of LEDs! The only one you can see are on the standby light of my TV and stereo.

ecological? probably.
economical? not for me. so much power wasted as heat, which requires me to pay to cool for ~5 months of the year. I'm a cold guy, about 20C is the perfect room temperature for me.

[Kjelt]

@brabus
you would probably still use candles if you were living in the 1930's 

[leona912]

Some cheap really can not last as advertised. I bought some GU 10 bulbs from Amazon one month ago, and now they just burned out!!
But some quality LED lights from Philips and Cree are working so well, bought them like 15 months ago.
And Yesterday, I just bought a LED ceiling light here Link removed, anyone familiar with this seller, just my first try, will update will I received it!
My first post, so correct if I am wrong.

[eKretz]

I have just changed almost every light bulb in my house to Cree LED bulbs. The new ones are outstanding. I have several different power levels - and they also have one that has CRI of 93 IIRC called the TW.

[kripton2035]

I bought cheap gu10 3w leds (10€ for two) two years ago.
I bought some 30 of each to replace in the whole house
I still did not have any of them that failed.
the price I paid for them has been paid in the electricity bill in a year or so...
so far not any change in light intensity noticed.
I still have some big dimmable halogens (100W+) that I can't find any led that has the same amount of light at a reasonable price
I found a 20w philips dimmable that could fit, but at 50€ the light it will never pay itself back.

[Kjelt]

I still have some big dimmable halogens (100W+) that I can't find any led that has the same amount of light at a reasonable price

Retrofit ledlamps are for now going to be a problem for 100W and higher wattages.
If you look at complete fixtures there are several that equal and beat the required lumens using multiple ledlamps.
Also a lot of conventional lamps have a 360 degrees spread of their light which a lot of retro led lamps do not have. It is a question for yourself if you need that kind of light obfuscation or that you are better suited with less light but more focussed on an area where led really shines. I myself have added a room to my house and installed 12 times 7,5W led fixtures spread in the ceiling. It is enough light and there are no more shadows in that space. Just look at it from a fresh start with new ideas instead of looking back and finding something compatible with the older fixtures.

[grumpydoc]

I have quite a few 9W GU10 LEDs - generally the ones which are the same size as a normal GU10 halogen. These are a good replacement for a 50W halogen in terms of brightness but they are universally crap. It always seems to be the driver board but they just blow themselves up.

On the bright (sorry) side I do have a lot of high wattage LEDs mounted in threes on circular boards to do something with.

[bookaboo]

Good quality LED lighting pays back fairly quickly if you are using the light 4+ hours every day (the math isnt hard). As for the "oh my eyes like xyz....", I can't say I've ever noticed it myself, no doubt the spectral analysis does show a much better spread for incandescent but I've yet to hear anyone say anything less than positive about the installs we did. As with other new technologies (renewables, electric cars etc.) some people have decided they are against it just for the hell of it instead of making an objective analysis.

As with anything you get what you pay for, a lot of people seem to think that LED bulbs are just that... a big LED. LEDs are supposed to be great and last forever, then in come the wun hungs built down to the penny and ruining the reputation.
I've just installed a load of industrial lighting for two customers, so I've researched the subject in quite a bit of detail. It gets king of annoying when you hear someone spoof off "LED lights are crap, my friend had downlights that failed after 3 month", yeah they did because he sorted by price on ebay.
 
Firstly there's the LED chip itself, everyone knows to look for CREE, Philips, Samsung, Bridgelux (Epistar is actually very good as well). The problem is that it's very easy for a seller or manufacturer to just claim they are using CREE when really its some no-name junk.
Epistar have a service where you can send them LEDs and they will verify that they are genuine, CREE refuse to do this (very strange) and the others I haven't tried.
Crappy LEDs give a much lower lumens per watt, there was no comparison in the genuine Epistar floodlights that we got against the "cheaper" ones from both the local wholesaler and B&Q.

Next is the quality of the driver, I dont need to explain this to any of you but there are also safety considerations. Some of the cheaper lights are just plain dangerous. The only way to verify this is a teardown, even then you will always find no name components so are at the mercy of the manufacturer.

Finally the construction quality, there are hundreds of manufacturers of these bulbs all working off common designs. I've seen some incredibly shitty build quality and some that's quite impressive.



So avoid ebay and amazon altogether, do some math and stick to a reputable supplier that offers a 3-5 year warranty. You cant really go wrong from there.

[madires]

Got some 6400K LED lights for my home office. They are quality ones and running fine for about two years now. I decided to get the 6400K lights intentionally to keep me awake and it works really great. Before going to bed I switch to a low-K light to relax and support the melatomin production. I'd recommend to select the color temperature based on the light's purpose and location.

[rdl]

I've also been converting to the Cree bulbs (from Home Depot), not too expensive and they put out a very nice light. In the living room and bedroom I like the warm white color, looks just like an incandescent. I use the daylight in my (so-called) lab/workshop because it blends better with the fluorescents. I have some that have been in use for a nearly a year.

I also have one fixture that is almost always on where I used 15 watt incandescents, and the bulbs would burn out every 2 to 3 months. I bought a Philips 3 watt LED (130 lumens I think) that was $8 on clearance and it's been running for almost 18 months now.

I have just changed almost every light bulb in my house to Cree LED bulbs. The new ones are outstanding. I have several different power levels - and they also have one that has CRI of 93 IIRC called the TW.

[echen1024]

In my house, we have a mixture of Cree and Philips LEDS, as well as some incandescents.

[nardev]

Halogens have an ideal CRI (Colour Rendering Index) because of the black body radiation due to the heating of an element. LEDs will never match this, but the good ones can come close.
But this is usually only an issue in very specific studio photography or such work.

As far as i understood, LED bulbs could pay back and do last but should i really change my bench light... or just all other lights in house/home...

I feel that halogen bulbs don't make my eyes tired...and...maybe that waste of energy is not that expensive if i calculate with my health.

[Neilm]

I bought a couple of expensive LED GU10 lights about 18 months ago with the idea that I would put them into a strip of 4 spots I have in my main room. I have to say I have found them very economical - none of the fitted halogens have blown.

[echen1024]

In my lab, 6500K T8 tubes are used.

[pickle9000]

electronupdate the led bulb test guy.

https://www.youtube.com/user/electronupdate/videos?shelf_id=1&view=0&sort=dd

[Rufus]

From what I understand a major contributor to shortened service life is heat.

Yes heat - or more accurately high temperature. Lamp fixtures were never designed to keep the lamp cool. I seem to remember some of the first LED lamp replacements had an integral cooling fan. Going back I remember a report stating that something like 70% of installed light fixtures were not suitable for CFLs never mind LEDs where LED temperature as well as the driving electronics is an issue.

Searching the web for insight I found this insight
http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/led-insights/4423570/That-60W-equivalent-LED--What-you-don-t-know--and-what-no-one-will-tell-you-

[nardev]

In my lab, 6500K T8 tubes are used.

Are you satisfied with it or not?

[Hydrawerk]

Today I do not recommend LED bulbs, they are still too expensive. Buy a high quality fluorescent lamps instead. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorescent_lamp They are not expensive. They can work for 10+ years. Always provide good cooling for the electronic ballast.

[vk6zgo]

We bought an LED "globe" (which wasn't at all cheap) to replace the CFL in the lounge room.
It was supposedly "equal to a 90w incandescent".

We didn't find it so------more like a 20w!
We put up with it for a while,then banished it to the toilet,where it does a great job--much better in that service than CFLs,which don't like the intermittent operation inherent in "dunny" service,& die early.

We gave up on CFLs for the lounge room too,as they also lie about their output---they are almost equivalent to a 40w incandescent.
We now have halogens in that room & the Master bedroom---it's nice to actually be able to see!

The kitchen has a real fluoro,& one CFL .
The 40w tube produces way more light than the CFL,even though it is aging.

[David_AVD]

If you stick to reputable brands the light output should be as claimed.  If it's not, take it back!

[echen1024]

In my lab, 6500K T8 tubes are used.

Are you satisfied with it or not?

Yes, they are excellent. Very bright.

[BennyBoy]

In my years of LED assembly of high power LED, I've found Heat kills them. With the correct heat sink, LED's will outlast any other light source. I have 192 1 watt lumileds in my fishtank, for about 6 years now, with no failed LED's.

I came across this article: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2546363/The-great-LED-lightbulb-rip-One-four-expensive-long-life-bulbs-doesnt-like-long-makers-claim.html

Basically saying what i felt for a long time. LED bulbs is not as good as marketed.

1. i have feeling that intensity is decreasing over the time
2. i still couldn't find any LED bulb that gives as pleasant light as halogen bulbs.

Halogen bulbs maybe spend the most energy in average but i would rather save energy in heating and cooling than my eyes.

What is your experience, opinion with lights and what kind of bulb do you prefer ?

[calexanian]

I too have converted most of my house to CREE home depot bulbs. They had them on sale for 4.99 for the 40 watt equivalent. they are 2700 K so they are a soft yellow which I like in my rooms. In my work room I have a mushroom style 15 watt LED what is more on the blue end of the spectrum and gives a crisp light that is easy on the eyes. It actually gives me a mental response of being in daylight on a cool day. Rather nice actually.

My first thought about longevity goes immediately to the life of the electrolytics in the power supply. doubtful they are using the primo stuff in there. Then the breakdown in the varnish in the magnetics, and then the actual silicon itself most likely being pushed to margin in the design. The LED's do degrade over time, but I have a feeling something else will give first. I have been enjoying $30 electricity bills all winter since I made the switch. Now we are heading into 24 hour a day aircon season.  goodbye $30, hello $175! Typical highs here in town in the summer are about 38 and with solar loading and everything else it gets pretty unbearable for sleeping. We get about a half dosen 110+ days a year on average but fortunately by then its pretty dry around these parts. We had a couple of 114 days and one day in my yard the thermocouple sticking out of the window read 122. I have never seen it that hot! Just walking out into it made my skin hurt like a physical burn.

But I digress... I like the Cree Bulbs.

[Kjelt]

Has anyone else noticed that the incandescent equivalent ratings are way off? An 810lm "60W equivalent" Philips or Osram is more like a 100W equivalent. 600lm is more like 60W, even though the box says "40W equivalent" on it. LEDs are nice soft  "pearl" bulbs as well, instead of uncovered filaments like the incandescents they are being compared to.

Depends on which bulbs you compare them, if you compare them to the originale wolfram bulbs then they were around 10lm/W. If you compare them to the Halogen bulbs they are more 15 to 20lm/W. So actually the whole replacement table s*cks. Now the lm/W for led lamps seem to stabilize and the product matures, you can see the trend that no longer lm are mentioned on the package but only the new (led)W's.

[madworm]

LED-bulb experience so far:

* expensive ones last
* cheap(er) ones not so much, at least high(er)-power ones

Just recently I've had a 400lm bulb die on me (IKEA, 12€, lasted 21 months, about 1-2kh usage). The LEDs are still fine, but the power supply (based on TI TPS92070) started to go into thermal shutdown + stink. I didn't find any popped caps and it might still work, but I threw it out (power supply) and will convert to a low-voltage light.

The 5 expensive bulbs I bought years ago (Philips, 8W, about 30€ a pop) are still going strong and get used several hours a day.

---

Experience with LEDs:

* expensive ones last (Nichia)
* cheap ones (ebay) die early or at least deteriorate significantly after months of usage  (dimmer, change of color...)

[G7PSK]

LED bulbs are no good outside, I have had all the ones I fitted in outside lights blow this winter and and we have had a mild winter this year with only a few frosts. The electrolytic capacitors bow up in the frost so that next time you turn the light on nothing happens.

[aroby]

LED bulbs are no good outside, I have had all the ones I fitted in outside lights blow this winter and and we have had a mild winter this year with only a few frosts. The electrolytic capacitors bow up in the frost so that next time you turn the light on nothing happens.

I disagree, based on my experience. We've had a brutal winter here in Chicago this year.  Outside my garages I have 4 carriage lights, each with 3 LED bulbs.  I forget the manufacturer - I bought them from Costco probably 3 years ago.  They stay on from dusk till dawn every day and I've never had one fail.  And it's been -20F for several nights in a row and not much higher in the daytime.  The lights work fine.   So do the CFLs I have in the lights by the front door.

Anthony

[Zero999]

LED bulbs are no good outside, I have had all the ones I fitted in outside lights blow this winter and and we have had a mild winter this year with only a few frosts. The electrolytic capacitors bow up in the frost so that next time you turn the light on nothing happens.

Interesting.

I doubt it was frost which was the problem. Most capacitors are rated down to -40^oC so should survive the coldest of all UK winters, let a lone this year when the lowest it got where I live was -3^oC.

It's been very wet though, so perhaps it was high humidity which killed them?

[nctnico]

I came across this article: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2546363/The-great-LED-lightbulb-rip-One-four-expensive-long-life-bulbs-doesnt-like-long-makers-claim.html

Basically saying what i felt for a long time. LED bulbs is not as good as marketed.

1. i have feeling that intensity is decreasing over the time
2. i still couldn't find any LED bulb that gives as pleasant light as halogen bulbs.

Halogen bulbs maybe spend the most energy in average but i would rather save energy in heating and cooling than my eyes.

What is your experience, opinion with lights and what kind of bulb do you prefer ?

Everybody has a preference: I hate halogen bulbs. I really can't stand the light from those...

Recently I read a test in an independant consumer magazine. It seems the more expensive LED lamps from A-brands like Philips do live up to their expectations. Still the value for money and energy consumption per lm aren't at the same point as CFL lamps but LED lamps are closing in fast.

[echen1024]

LED bulbs are no good outside, I have had all the ones I fitted in outside lights blow this winter and and we have had a mild winter this year with only a few frosts. The electrolytic capacitors bow up in the frost so that next time you turn the light on nothing happens.

Interesting.

I doubt it was frost which was the problem. Most capacitors are rated down to -40^oC so should survive the coldest of all UK winters, let a lone this year when the lowest it got where I live was -3^oC.

It's been very wet though, so perhaps it was high humidity which killed them?

I am in Houston, TX which is very humid during the summers (80%RH+). We have had 2 outdoor LED bulbs that run on at night automatically to around 6:00AM, and after 2 years, they are still going strong. Cree bulbs.

[G7PSK]

LED bulbs are no good outside, I have had all the ones I fitted in outside lights blow this winter and and we have had a mild winter this year with only a few frosts. The electrolytic capacitors bow up in the frost so that next time you turn the light on nothing happens.

What brand? This is like saying "petrol cars are no good in the cold, they don't start". Clearly some are better than others.

Phillips was the lable Also tried some own brand from Tesco and some from CPC Farnell but they were all made in China. I have had the same type of trouble with cfl's as well, the lamps are OK in light fixtures on the wall of the house but the ones in free standing lamp posts at a height of 3 meters have had capacitor blow from frost I know this is the cause as I put a new lamp inside for a couple of nights without putting it into the bulb holder and a capacitor blew on that I have put separate capacitors up there and not had the problem and I have put some bulbs in the freezer and the capacitors blew, it appears to be a problem of cheap Chinese capacitors used in these lamps sold here in the UK. The lamp post's now have filament bulbs as I got fed up with climbing the ladder to replace bulbs.

[SeanB]

Also depends on where it is made as well. Phillips Indonesia is a lot better than Phillips from PRC, and the Phillips Poland are so much better than the rest. As to US manufacturers most make the stuff in PRC (junk and avoid like the plague) or Mexico, which are fair. USA made is generally good, though the plants are closing down like crazy as the beancounters only look at the next 3 months for a long term plan.

[Kjelt]

I want to stress that bulbs that do not explicitly have IP66 or outdoor usage on the box are not  suited as outdoor replacements for standard lightbulbs.

My experience with electronics in outdoor environments is that the pcb needs a special coating against the humidity or the box should be potted or hermetically sealed, and all electronics should be spec'd on outdoor environments (-40^oC - 125^oC).
A metal dark lightpole that stands in the full sun the whole day can get very very hot and at nights very cold.

[TVman]

In my kitchen I use A 70w,5000 lumen,Metal Halide Bulb.
I found it at A Hotel warehouse Free MADGrab.....
It uses Less power than 6 LED 650 lumen Bulbs.

[calexanian]

Something I just noticed, in two steps.

Some of my solar calculators do not work under LED lights.. Ok, that figures. Different spectrum.. That got me thinking. Are bugs attracted to LED bulbs? I have one in my entryway.. Typically a whole barrage of bugs would be buzzing it this time of night.. I changed it to a LED recently and did not bother to look. I just did, and no bugs! I am free to use my front door in the summer evenings now without fear of being dive bombed by a dozen hungry mosquitos! Also I can leave my windows open and the no see ums don't some through the screen towards the light. I guess it has something to do with the lower UV content.

[Kjelt]

It's a shame we can't get 5000lm LED lighting for homes in the west. It's amazing, far better than anything on the market here, but only seems to be available in Japan and Korea (and maybe China).

Enough choice in the professional market such as the standard 60cm x 60cm tiles but not as a standard light bulb replacement which is logical considering the wattage and required cooling.

[Kjelt]

I was thinking of this kind of thing: http://www.sharp.co.jp/led_lighting/ceiling/index.html
As well as providing 5000lm of diffuse light they have remote control, variable colour temperature, dimming, air purification/anti-virus, insect repellent, voice control and more. Even the basic, cheapest models have remote control and excellent light, vastly better than anything available in the UK.

[TVman]

Toto do a toilet with built-in LED lighting so you don't have to turn the main light on and wake yourself up at night. Little things that make your life better.

 

[madworm]

Big fan of LED lighting myself. I tend to build my own custom LED-lamps, great fun.

so you don't have to turn the main light on and wake yourself up at night

Sooner or later you will find out that it is actually better to be somewhat awake when taking a leak. Running completely on autopilot can lead to nasty surprises later in the day. But you're right that soft light is very nice for tired eyes :-)

[mamalala]

Enough choice in the professional market such as the standard 60cm x 60cm tiles but not as a standard light bulb replacement which is logical considering the wattage and required cooling.

I think that LED bulbs that go into normal, old fixtures are only a stop-gap thing anyway. Personally i find it rather silly to use them, since that takes away the huge advantages of LED lighting. With LED's, you can do things that are hard or impossible to do with normal lamps. Try to make a 1cm thin panel with fluorescent or incadescent lamps. Or thin, long and very bright aluminium strips. Or those flexible strips.

LED's have the big advantage that you can make lights in shapes that so far no other technology can produce. Just recently i installed a bunch of 60x30cm and 30x30cm panels above my workspace. Nice, even and bright light, from nice looking, flat panels. No bulky tubes and fixtures...

Greetings,

Chris

[Kjelt]

I agree fully, unfortunately esp. For pro consumers the biggest potential is still in retrofit led lighting, the customers they refuse to rewire anything because that is extremely expensive in manhours. For consumers it is easier but even there it has to run on mains and mains dimming since another wire for controls is difficult.

[mamalala]

I agree fully, unfortunately esp. For pro consumers the biggest potential is still in retrofit led lighting, the customers they refuse to rewire anything because that is extremely expensive in manhours. For consumers it is easier but even there it has to run on mains and mains dimming since another wire for controls is difficult.

True, there will always be time required for transitioning to new technology. But i'm really confident that the time of regular fixtures and bulbs is coming to an end rather quickly. Then there are many advances in LED driver chips, meaning that dimming isn't going to be much of a problem either, i.e. no extra control wiring needed. Only "problem" right now is that many conventional dimmers require a minimum load, and LED lighting using such chips takes so little power that the load they present to the dimmer is too low. But then again, this is just a matter of advancing technology a bit. In the times of incadescent lamps, dimmers just worked and there simply was no need to get them to work at loads as low as a Watt or two, so no one developed that.

Greetings,

Chris

[ASowa]

The most common failure for any led system is driver failure usually due to electrolytic capacitor failure.   Cheap chinese 2000 hour 105C 50V caps are often use to hit a the low price point required for consumer bulbs.  Assuming the best case of 25V forward voltage,  the driver would need to operate at 78C to get the common 25k hour claim.  That is a hard temperature to reach when you are dissipating ~10W in such a small area. When you enclose the bulb, you can easily increase the operating temperature by 10C which would then reduce your life by half to 12.5k hours.

You shouldn't have to worry about the leds failing.  Even at high temperature 25k hours is easy to achieve with modern phosphors. 

In terms of CRI, all new leds are in warm white color temperatures have a CRI of at least 80 but the R9 value which renders red may only be single digits.  Recently 90+ CRI versions are becoming available due to pressure from California legislation. These will have a R9 value of at least 50, which will make skin tones look more like filament type bulbs. 98 CRI chips are available, but its debatable if it matters at that point.

[Kjelt]

I think you will eventually get LED drivers that fit right into a standard residential switch box. You separate the driver from the LED and LED prices come down, the driver isn’t cooking in the LED enclosure so it last longer. You don’t have to add any wiring and diming can be done by throttling back the driver, not PWM.  You could just add a PTC on the LED package for thermal protection. That would be the way I would do it if I were to replace all the lights in my house with LED’s.

You're house will then become a huge EMC problem unless you use DC current and don't use switchers. All current Led drivers have high frequency PWM dimming some Maxim chips use >1MHz for switching so the user can not see any blinking. Using those kind of chips you need the leds to be close and filter the output. In my led lighting project I developed a driver with such a Maxim ic did everything said in the datasheet, let a colleague run the final pcb in the emc room and I was transmitting big time on FM frequency Luckily two beads, a resistor and NPO Cap solved the issue but it remains tricky business.

[Hydrawerk]

Hello, what do you think about Panasonic LDAHV11LH3 LED bulb? Is it good? I bought it for my grandmother. It was cheap in a sale. It cost me 99 CZK including VAT. It is about 3,6 EUR.
I believe that Panasonic makes good quality products.

[Hydrawerk]

 

[rrinker]

 I replaced all the incandescent bulbs in my house with LEDs, 3 years ago when I moved in, None have thus far failed, and some are in enclosed fixtures which the specifically say not to do 

[CatalinaWOW]

I can't answer reliability questions since to date I have had no failures, but I haven't had any operating for the projected life.  I now have a couple of dozen LED bulbs in various ratings up to 100W equivalent.   The oldest ones are approaching four years, most are almost three years old.  Most get turned on and off a couple of times a day.  The total on time varies from well under an hour to nearly 12 hours a day.  The only quibble I have with any of them is that on some the color temperature changes dramatically as they are dimmed. 

Even the ones that are on roughly 12 hours a day are accumulating less than 4000 hours a year and would take over six years to reach the 25,000 hour advertised life.  At best my oldest bulbs are just over half way through that life.  The fact that none has failed is encouraging, and is in stark contrast with my experience with CFD bulbs, which had average life times not much different than the incandescent ones I was replacing.

[Cubdriver]

At this point I have more than 60 in various places around the house.  The oldest were installed a bit before 2011, most in the 2012-2013 time frame, and a few since.  Knock on wood, none have yet failed.  <cue smell of magic smoke escaping from LED lamps>

Most are Philips, Cree, and Eco-Watt (from Home Depot), and there are also a few oddballs.  I stay away from dollar store and off-brand types.

-Pat

[rdl]

All the Cree LED bulbs I bought 3 years ago, when I last posted in this thread, are still going. The little 130 lumen Philips that runs 24/7 already had a year and a half on it at that time and it's still working. It may have run over 40,000 hrs now, but the fact that it's rarely switched off and on probably has something to do with that. I even have a few very inexpensive Newegg/Rosewill branded ones that are going strong after over two years.

[cdev]

A while ago I bought a bunch of Feit warm white bulbs and almost all of them have failed. I don't think that more than maybe a quarter of them are still working. That's disappointing because the color temperature of them is nice, for an LED, warm white.

[helius]

Incandescent lamps typically have broadly the same level of performance until they fail by breaking the filament. Especially with modern bulbs they typically don't last long enough to suffer sputtering problems. So questions like "has the bulb completely stopped working" are what people think about when you say failure.
LED lamps are different. They age. You really need to measure their output with a luxmeter before assuming that they are meeting the claimed lifetime spec.

[CatalinaWOW]

Incandescent lamps typically have broadly the same level of performance until they fail by breaking the filament. Especially with modern bulbs they typically don't last long enough to suffer sputtering problems. So questions like "has the bulb completely stopped working" are what people think about when you say failure.
LED lamps are different. They age. You really need to measure their output with a luxmeter before assuming that they are meeting the claimed lifetime spec.

Technically you are right.  But from my point of view, if I am still happy with the illumination they haven't failed.  I won't replace them until I am unhappy.

Again, the LEDs are performing very differently than CFDs.  Many of those showed noticeable dimming before they failed.  That is in addition to the wild variations in intensity during the warm up period following turn on.  While I haven't checked with a light meter, I haven't noticed any drop off in brightness with the LED bulbs.  I am guessing that my sensitivity to this is somewhere in the 3 dB to 6 dB range (Guess based on a smattering of observations, complaints about dim bulbs etc.  I know this is not something human physiology is good at).  I believe they spec to the 3 dB point so it is very possible I am giving "failed" bulbs a pass.

[Kjelt]

I have teared down three led bulbs and ledspots recently, branded and non branded, all below $5 price.
They all had chinese electronics inside, the branded ones had pcbs with compliance markings had fuses , ikea had the same as philips on some cheap bulbs.
The non branded ones were scary no fuses no markings on compliance just crap:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/lets-see-what-a-$4-ebay-'cree'-ledspot-looks-like/msg1189082/#msg1189082

[Jeroen3]

There are two problems with LED lights:
1. They flicker. They differ from filaments in the way they flicker. Sine vs square/sawtooth waveform light intensity. It is very fatiguing on the eyes.
2. If they don't they have capacitors, and the capacitor fails first.

Here is a website with a comparison on various lights, including flicker.
http://www.olino.org/advice

[madires]

An E14 spot (3 1W LEDs, no cheapie) failed after about 4 or 5 years, caused by a bad cap in the SMPSU (signs of too much heat and a cheap cap). Two E27 spots (same model) failed during the warranty period. The vendor issued a refund, since he didn't sell that model anymore. Unfortunately you don't know if a bulb got a bad thermal design or cheap components in the PSU before buying it.

[PlainName]

I am a convert to LED lighting. Previously, LEDs meant about 6000K which is far too blue for me so I went for 2700K 'warm' white. They're fine but not brilliant. However, the recently available 'natural' whites of around 4000K are perfect, and those are what I kit the place with either with new fittings or to replace filament/flouros.

There are two issue with lifetime: first is complete failure, which we've had but not often enough to put us off. The one light (a T8 replacement) I did take apart turned out to be the electronics, and feeding the LEDs from a CC supply repurposed it.

The other factor is, literally, wearing out. As LEDs age they get dimmer, and once they get down to about 80% you notice. We have several fittings where the lights are not as bright as they were, and although they are still good I can see the time when they'll need to be replaced even though they still work. BTW, that applies to pretty much all lights, but the CCFL seem to be particularly bad. We won't touch those with a bargepole now, and replaced all of them as soon as LEDs became affordable.

[kaz911]

I use Phillips Master LEDs where there are old 240v->12v trafo's as they can take it and does not flicker - but use fractionally more power. But not enough to warrant replacing trafos.

I normally use standard Philips LEDs for 240v

Now my 12 kitchen "Halogen's converted to LED" use less power than my 2 stove lights I have not converted yet...

I have replaced about 60+ halogen's so far in my house, a friends house and our vacation apartment. So far only 2 dead (DOA) Philips that was promptly exchanged with no questions asked. And going on 3 years for the oldest now. Philips have good heat transfer and I do think they will last

I also put in Solar Powered PIR activated outdoor spot-light for my Bin Area and despite installed in December - it works great with UK sun only and shade for > 1/2 the day.

[Hydrawerk]

Any thoughts on Panasonic LDAHV11LH3?

[macboy]

The most common failure for any led system is driver failure usually due to electrolytic capacitor failure.   Cheap chinese 2000 hour 105C 50V caps are often use to hit a the low price point required for consumer bulbs.  Assuming the best case of 25V forward voltage,  the driver would need to operate at 78C to get the common 25k hour claim.  That is a hard temperature to reach when you are dissipating ~10W in such a small area. When you enclose the bulb, you can easily increase the operating temperature by 10C which would then reduce your life by half to 12.5k hours.

You shouldn't have to worry about the leds failing.  Even at high temperature 25k hours is easy to achieve with modern phosphors. 

In terms of CRI, all new leds are in warm white color temperatures have a CRI of at least 80 but the R9 value which renders red may only be single digits.  Recently 90+ CRI versions are becoming available due to pressure from California legislation. These will have a R9 value of at least 50, which will make skin tones look more like filament type bulbs. 98 CRI chips are available, but its debatable if it matters at that point.

I bought some ">90" CRI bulbs recently, and they are simply excellent. The difference in color rendering is immediately noticeable to me. Recently in Ontario, Canada there is a electric utility sponsored program where you can get huge discounts on LED bulbs, to encourage reduction in energy usage, as supply is a big issue here in summer. I was able to get $8 off packs of 4 bulbs that cost $12 (at Costco), so $1 each bulb after discount. They are the best LED bulbs I have bought yet, and the cheapest as well. Luminous brand. Roughly the same deal on PAR20, GU10 and filament style candelabra bulbs as well. I stocked up.

These were so cheap that I immediately took one apart to have a look. The driver in these has no electrolytic caps, just 3 film ones ... AC line to a series fuseable resistor, cap across the line for noise reduction, then a bridge rectifier going to two more film caps as a reservoir. A driver IC and a small amount of other SMD circutry rounds it out. I assume that the driver circuit is specifically designed to work with high ripple on the raw rectified DC. They have seven 1 Watt LEDs, probably in series and having two die each. The LED board lights brightly at around 50 VDC, drawing about 100 mA at that voltage. I like this driver board, it looks better than most of the ones I've seen doing post-mortem exams on dead CFL and LED bulbs in the past.

I was thrilled to finally replace seven incandescent PAR20 bulbs in my kitchen with these LEDs. The only issue is that they are so bright I needed to install a dimmer. Bulbs cost $7 total, dimmer about $45. Energy usage down from 210 W down to maybe 10 to 20 W (I dim them quite low). These are frequently used lights, so I should see savings soon enough.

[Dielectric]

A while ago I bought a bunch of Feit warm white bulbs and almost all of them have failed. I don't think that more than maybe a quarter of them are still working. That's disappointing because the color temperature of them is nice, for an LED, warm white.

I don't like to make blanket statements, but I'll go for it in this case.  Feit is uniformly junk, every Feit bulb I've ever purchased (Menards mostly carries Feit) has died an early death, incandescent or LED.  Sometimes it's just the filament, sometimes it's stupid mechanical stuff like the glass coming loose from the base.

[rrinker]

 When I really started seeing savings was when I replaced the 4x 150 watt floodlights for the back yard with LEDs. All four LEDs consume less power than just one of the old lamps, and they get used a lot - in winter it's pretty much always dark when someone is home so the lights are on whenever the dogs go out to do their business. In summer, we spend a lot of time outdoors and in the pool. 
 My electric bill always shows a graph comparing current use with the same period the previous year, for the past 12 months. It is consistently lower and that's SINCE adding my electronics workbench. In the process I replaced one old computer with 2 of the latest low energy types with highly efficient power supplies. They aren't that removed from one another that the two new ones use less electricity than the one older one, but there has been no increase in utilization on the scale of the bill. I know buying the robot cleaner for the pool helped over the summer - it doesn't use nearly as much power as the 2 1/2 HP filter pump, but running the robot daily allowed me to reduce the time I had the filter run. That doesn't affect winter though, that's all the LEDs - it was actually colder this winter than last winter, my gas usage was up because the furnace ran more but that means the electric circulating pumps (I have 3 zones) ran more as well. Still less electricity used than same period last year.

[Red Squirrel]

In theory CFLs and LEDs should last a long time, but normally they cheap out on the driver.

There is a lot of hate for CFLs but I have to say I have them throughout most of my house and they have lasted a long time.  I've had the odd ball go bad but a good part of them have been in use since I moved in a bit less than 10 years ago.

Back then the only LEDs you could get were spot lights and they were like 30 bucks a pop.  Now they make LEDs that are unidirectional like regular bulbs and they arn't that expensive so as the CFLs die I'll probably go LED.

For LED you really need to buy locally from a real store though. The stuff you get on Amazon comes straight from China with no UL rating and is going to burn your house down.  Some of them even have exposed mains.    That goes with a lot of stuff though, even phone chargers.  Lot of them arn't even mains isolated. So it's 5v out between the two pins, but it will be mains referenced and around 120v from pin to ground. 

[madires]

My parents started using CFLs about 20 years ago and a few CFLs survived until today. But they also had several more modern types which failed quite soon (mostly OSRAM). Buying brands isn't a safe bet. A lot of the LED bulbs in local shops are imported from China. A typical cheapie is €2 or €2.50 (equivalent to 60W incandescent). The better ones are about twice the price. I've skipped the CFLs and went LED directly.

[kaz911]

My parents started using CFLs about 20 years ago and a few CFLs survived until today. But they also had several more modern types which failed quite soon (mostly OSRAM). Buying brands isn't a safe bet. A lot of the LED bulbs in local shops are imported from China. A typical cheapie is €2 or €2.50 (equivalent to 60W incandescent). The better ones are about twice the price. I've skipped the CFLs and went LED directly.

Most of the CFLs I have replaced have been due to some sort of "mechanical" failure. Either plastic becomes brittle or glass somehow breaks. And then they become a PITA to exchange in many lamp designs - wear gloves. I think 50% shatters when you try to get them out if they have been in there for 5-10 years. Usually no matter how careful the glass will rupture.

[helius]

You can prevent bulbs getting stuck in the socket after many years by applying dielectric grease when installing them.
One thing that I don't like about CFLs is their extended height compared to the incandescent bulbs they replace. It makes them fit poorly in table lamps and ceiling fixtures, and I even hit one with a door by not paying attention

[james_s]

I've never had a CFL fail of mechanical issues, usually what happens if they last a reasonable life is the cathodes wear out, run hot and melt the plastic before eventually cracking the glass to metal seal which extinguishes the lamp but I still haven't had one actually break. Usually I had ballast failures, especially in lamps that were cycled frequently.

LEDs are so much better that I've long since retired all of my CFLs and replaced with LED. Mine are almost all a mix of Philips and Cree, both have been excellent. I've had a grand total of one LED bulb failure since I installed them in 2011 and that was a cheap EcoSmart branded bulb that I used in an enclosed fixture despite the warning not to.

I never had much luck with Feit bulbs myself but a friend of mine has a bunch of the early Feit LED bulbs that Costco was selling and his have all been fine, I've actually been really surprised they've held up. I think the earlier LED bulbs were over-engineered because manufactures knew that they had to live up to the claims in order for people to buy the expensive bulbs after so many CFLs failed to last as long as they were supposed to. I had some CFLs that didn't even last as long as incandescent but at least they didn't fail with a bright flash and pop that could make one nearly pee themselves when walking into a dark room and flipping on the light. That's one aspect of incandescent lamps I really don't miss one bit.

[kaz911]

You can prevent bulbs getting stuck in the socket after many years by applying dielectric grease when installing them.
One thing that I don't like about CFLs is their extended height compared to the incandescent bulbs they replace. It makes them fit poorly in table lamps and ceiling fixtures, and I even hit one with a door by not paying attention

I always do for outside. but none was of my installation

I do a lot of marine stuff and have my magic special grease with me everywhere. Like very thick honey when cold - but heat it a bit and you can paint/dip things that need protection. Works wonders. Power bus bars and battery contacts in boats are often the first place to look for trouble - so they get a good thick layer - and never ever any issues there again. I coated parts on a boat once - where the owner forgot to enable the bilge pump. Water rose up over the bus-bar before he noticed. I drained it - and no issues. But engine oil pan needed replacing within 6 months. That was UAE where the water is so salty things start rusting in about a day if left outside. But busbar is still perfect. now 5 years later.

[james_s]

Modern CFLs and LEDs are no bigger than standard incandescent lamps, at least the ones I've had. Philips, Cree, GE probably others make LED bulbs that are exactly the same size and shape as a standard A19 incandescent.