Louis Rossman, Right to Repair Bill

[Jope]

Right now, Louis Rossmann is doing an AMA (ask me anything) on Reddit:
www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/4nn5zv/iama_electronics_repair_technician_hated_by_apple/

He and others are currently trying to get a bill passed in New York called the "Fair Repair Bill": http://newyork.repair.org/

[vze1lryy]

no luck on the bill

[Rerouter]

I think the issue taken here is like the rasberry pi case, they can not make public large parts of certain products without invalidating NDA's,

However having large fines for attempting repairs such as agriculture machinery, that i can see being phased out with legislation,

I myself have had to jump through some hoops repairing sensors in a bus emission system, (supplier refused to sell to Australia), and with the current legislation i would fall under the "tampering with an emission system" legislation, that has some ludicrous fines,

In the exact case, it was a leaking adblu level sensor, but by modifying the sensor it falls under those laws,

[System Error Message]

With this business going downhill its hard to find a legitimate repair shop anywhere, most places i see around my area are just rip-offs that dont seem like proper repair shops.

Its nice that component manufacturers still provide datasheets, schematics and information that apple doesnt even though they supply parts for apple as apple doesnt manufacture components. Anyone with the right tools can copy a product even without the schematics and the main problem about IP theft and copying is that those same factories producing products for these large companies use their off hours, skill and experience to make their own products not to mention China's politics and attitude towards foreign companies, these companies are just taking it out on others. Same thing in any country in Asia, when you outsource the work the people learn and start making their own versions of your product and they try to find a scapegoat when their sales and stock price decrease.

[wraper]

I think the issue taken here is like the rasberry pi case,

In Raspberry Pi case, the only proprietary part is Broadcom SoC. All other parts are off the shelf stuff for which you can get the datasheet. Also they released the full or partial schematics for the old versions. But are reluctant to do it for newer ones. Also as they released full schematic for original model B, then why they can't do it for B+ where only tiny part of schematic available. As broadcom SoC is exactly the same, they cannot say it is because of the NDA. Nonetheless repaired hundreds of them  .

[Rerouter]

That is exactly what i mean, yes they released what they could, but could not release everything, and this was for a product people where intended to tinker with,

Arguably a block level diagram showing interconnects would be amazingly helpful on some of the stuff i have had to repair,

Even when your repairing stuff for companies that have the schematics, they can be very reluctant to share it, most of the time it involves finding someone who A. has access, and B. is willing to share the required information, This has been my primary avenue of actually getting solid and relevant information.

There are even more companies where the systems in place are straight up made hard to copy documents anywhere, This is thick through the truck and bus industry, with a single service computer bolted to the wall or chained to the floor, with print requests having to be forwarded through another country for approval (I wish i was making this up).

And then there are even more companies that don't actually have the design files on internal records, they had another company do the design, or re spin another solution for them, and only buy them, some people will likely have them, but they dont tend to make there way to where the average employee can access.

Would i like it if this info was available? yes, are companies likely willing to pay someone to format this information into a releasable form, I dont really see it,

To this extent, I agree with the base premise of most of these acts and bills, to remove the stick, or the punishment received from attempting repairs, e.g. the iphone button security thing, or the forced bricking of a tractor until a genuine pressure sensor ID is read, etc, this allows the companies to exist, and those that are good at there job find suppliers of parts, Its rarely a high return market, e.g. if the repair is too expensive its not worth repairing. (and phone repair shops are common)

There are ways to play nice, while still meeting the anti-tamper checks, e.g. a legislated devices in most buses uses a digitally keyed speed sensor, to detect and prevent tampering, (e.g. driver wants to go 5 km/h faster, so bodges in a ratio box) If the sensor says something doesn't line up it records a tamper pattern when idle, but still performs its job while in use.

To the same in the earlier tractor case, flag an engine light.. but let the thing start. In that case it had a 1 wire ID chip in it, but was only an analog sensor. the chip was blown out (someone with a test light) but the analog output was working, would not let the vehicle start until the sensor was replaced.

[wraper]

That is exactly what i mean, yes they released what they could, but could not release everything, and this was for a product people where intended to tinker with,

Don't think so. What prevented them from releasing basically the same thing just with different USB/ethernet IC from the same manufacturer as in previous model (datasheet is publicly available)?

then why they can't do it for B+ where only tiny part of schematic available. As broadcom SoC is exactly the same, they cannot say it is because of the NDA. Nonetheless repaired hundreds of them  .

[FireFlower]

Bill sounds very good.

I tried to ask from Kontron schematics for ITX motherboard that was end of line for many years but they would not send me them because
a) my email is not on their direct customer list
b) I would have to fill NDA for 10 year old (technology) motherboard

Go figure

[dannyf]

He and others are currently trying to get a bill passed in New York called the "Fair Repair Bill": http://newyork.repair.org/

It is a way for the government to legislate the existence of his industry onto the rest of us.

The right to repair something is always there, as is the consequence of such repair. What he is trying to do is to legislate a particular way products need to be repaired so to ensure the longevity and profitability of his industry, at the expense of the rest of the society.

In a free market, if enough people don't like a particular way a product is engineered, that product wouldn't sell enough to survive. The matter of the fact is that our society has moved away from the "repair" industry, whether rightly or wrongly.

using the government to jam down the throats of ordinary citizens for selfish reasons is just not what a society should do.

[bitslice]

I can for the most part source almost any OEM part for a Dyson vacuum cleaner that I like, but there's not a single part of a Miele vacuum that I can buy, including the parts that can be expected to wear out like brushes and hoses.
If third party dust bags did not exist then I probably wouldn't even have bought it.

You've maybe noticed that at some rubbish dumps in the UK the staff put aside any Dyson that comes in, because some of them make a few quid from repairing them.

[Corporate666]

He and others are currently trying to get a bill passed in New York called the "Fair Repair Bill": http://newyork.repair.org/

It is a way for the government to legislate the existence of his industry onto the rest of us.

The right to repair something is always there, as is the consequence of such repair. What he is trying to do is to legislate a particular way products need to be repaired so to ensure the longevity and profitability of his industry, at the expense of the rest of the society.

In a free market, if enough people don't like a particular way a product is engineered, that product wouldn't sell enough to survive. The matter of the fact is that our society has moved away from the "repair" industry, whether rightly or wrongly.

using the government to jam down the throats of ordinary citizens for selfish reasons is just not what a society should do.

Yeah, as a manufacturer I don't think I should be required to provide service information, updates and replacement parts.  I can see the manufacturer's viewpoint.  If you make your devices repairable and provide information, does that get you more sales?  Or does it provide a worse consumer experience when repairs fail and/or shops blame issues on manufacturers when it was a repair shop that screwed up?  Or a customer repairs a device and sells it and it breaks for the next customer, leaving them a bad impression with the manufacturer despite the issue being caused by a shoddy repair.  And of course there's the issue of the manufacturer having their own repair system.  If they make the product, they should dictate what the OEM repair options are.  I think it's unfair for Apple to be forced to cut into their own business by divulging proprietary details of a product.



But I don't think this is to help Louis' business... I think he believes it in general.   If it passed, he would get more competition.  Better to be the one in a million guy who can fix something than one of a million guys who can fix something.

[rch]

He and others are currently trying to get a bill passed in New York called the "Fair Repair Bill": http://newyork.repair.org/

It is a way for the government to legislate the existence of his industry onto the rest of us.

The right to repair something is always there, as is the consequence of such repair. What he is trying to do is to legislate a particular way products need to be repaired so to ensure the longevity and profitability of his industry, at the expense of the rest of the society.

In a free market, if enough people don't like a particular way a product is engineered, that product wouldn't sell enough to survive. The matter of the fact is that our society has moved away from the "repair" industry, whether rightly or wrongly.

using the government to jam down the throats of ordinary citizens for selfish reasons is just not what a society should do.

Yeah, as a manufacturer I don't think I should be required to provide service information, updates and replacement parts.  I can see the manufacturer's viewpoint.  If you make your devices repairable and provide information, does that get you more sales?  Or does it provide a worse consumer experience when repairs fail and/or shops blame issues on manufacturers when it was a repair shop that screwed up?  Or a customer repairs a device and sells it and it breaks for the next customer, leaving them a bad impression with the manufacturer despite the issue being caused by a shoddy repair.  And of course there's the issue of the manufacturer having their own repair system.  If they make the product, they should dictate what the OEM repair options are.  I think it's unfair for Apple to be forced to cut into their own business by divulging proprietary details of a product.



But I don't think this is to help Louis' business... I think he believes it in general.   If it passed, he would get more competition.  Better to be the one in a million guy who can fix something than one of a million guys who can fix something.

I don't have an opinion on this law in particular or on American law in general.   But in some industries where the aftermarket is important, such as the car industry, we in Europe have laws compelling manufacturers to permit third party repairs and part  supplies, and to facilitate them by providing patterns and specifications.  I have a feeling that even in the US cheap third party car repairers exist.

If this were not so, the car industry would be very different.   At about five years old repair of cars by manufacturers' dealers would become very expensive, and it is quite possible that parts would become suddenly completely unobtainable.

In practice, no-one really believes that unfettered private enterprise is good for ordinary people, even if they have a quasi-religious belief that it is the right thing.

[nctnico]

Bill sounds very good.

I tried to ask from Kontron schematics for ITX motherboard that was end of line for many years but they would not send me them because
a) my email is not on their direct customer list
b) I would have to fill NDA for 10 year old (technology) motherboard

And what do you think to repair on an ITX motherboard?

[rstofer]

So, is "Right To Repair" a left-handed way to get Apple's source code?  After all, not all failings are hardware.

[wraper]

Bill sounds very good.

I tried to ask from Kontron schematics for ITX motherboard that was end of line for many years but they would not send me them because
a) my email is not on their direct customer list
b) I would have to fill NDA for 10 year old (technology) motherboard

And what do you think to repair on an ITX motherboard?

There a tons of things to repair on it. Actually everything on it can be changed given that you source BGAs from Chinese sewers. As those boards are not cheap, this is financially viable too.

[nctnico]

I can for the most part source almost any OEM part for a Dyson vacuum cleaner that I like, but there's not a single part of a Miele vacuum that I can buy, including the parts that can be expected to wear out like brushes and hoses.

Then you are not looking in the right place because Miele parts are the easiest to get! A short search with Google shows several webshops with third party and original parts for Miele vacuum cleaners.

Bill sounds very good.

I tried to ask from Kontron schematics for ITX motherboard that was end of line for many years but they would not send me them because
a) my email is not on their direct customer list
b) I would have to fill NDA for 10 year old (technology) motherboard

And what do you think to repair on an ITX motherboard?

There a tons of things to repair on it. Actually everything on it can be changed given that you source BGAs from Chinese sewers. As those boards are not cheap, this is financially viable too.

And how would you diagnose -for example- an intermittant problem on a DDR memory bus? Sure you can fix simple things like a voltage regulator or leaky capacitors (and for such repairs you don't need schematics at all) but when it comes to diagnosing a real problem you'll need some serious tools. And there is where the example of an ITX motherboard goes wrong: you fix a device by swapping out what is reasonable to swap. When the brushes of a motor are worn out you just replace the brushes. You are not going to mix carbon powder with some adhesive in order to manufacture brushes by yourself.

[wraper]

Sure you can fix simple things like a voltage regulator or leaky capacitors (and for such repairs you don't need schematics at all) but when it comes to diagnosing a real problem you'll need some serious tools. And there is where the example of an ITX motherboard goes wrong: you fix a device by swapping out what is reasonable to swap. When the brushes of a motor are worn out you just replace the brushes. You are not going to mix carbon powder with some adhesive in order to manufacture brushes by yourself.

Reasonable like spending 1k+ eur to get some used board if you can get it at all? Schematic can help a lot, first of all you can check reset circuity, clocks, many voltages which will give a big clue what is fine and what is not. Without schematic it is rather difficult to trace the fault on unknown board without starting to change parts left and right.

And how would you diagnose -for example- an intermittant problem on a DDR memory bus?

Memory bus not something what you normally are hunting/measuring on the failed board. And why would you? if power is fine, there are basically 2 possibilities: faulty ram stick or faulty north bridge (if memory controller not built into CPU). Don't confuse repairing and designing things.

[vze1lryy]

A few points here.

1) I see the word selfish brought up on the side of the repair shops. Isn't it selfish to use the world's limited resources in a manner that mandates they be wasted by throwing away a perfectly capable $1000 product with a $0.17 problem?

2) The argument of IP theft is a moot one IMO. There is more to designing, manufacturing, and bringing to market a top of the line/cutting edge product than the schematic. Most of the circuits used are sample circuits anyway. Look at the LP8550 or TPS51125 sample circuit from manufacturer datasheet than look at the schematic for an 820-3115... it is almost the same. There is nothing special here. How the laptop turns 18v into 12v or 12v into 5v is not where the magic lies. There is an entire OTHER set of information and resources dedicated to actually turning the pile of silicone into a finished product, the other 90% outside the schematic, and I am not asking for any of that.

Think of it this way: if a dumbass 21 year old can find the schematic with 20 minutes of googling... can't Samsung? Can't Lenovo? If the goal were to clone and rip off Apple's IP, everything required is already out there... but that is not all there is to it.

3) I could care less for source code of the operating system. Let the FSF fight that fight, I have no desire to mandate any company release their source code for anything.

4) Since doing this YT channel I have had DOZENS of my own customers stop sending me shit and start fixing it themselves. One of the largest myths is that the YT channel is there to bring business... if I could plot a graph whereby I was sent less stuff by other repair shops, me doing a YT channel, and people popping up all across the world doing what I do... it would have direct correlation. This bill is about legitimizing the industry that helped make me who I am, and about making the world a better place. I believe in this. I believe that some genius kid in some faraway third world country is going to find the answer to the fresh water problem through chemistry classes he takes on the internet, on a laptop or tablet that would be sitting in the trash with blown R7021 without this bill & educational content being made available.

I will keep doing my job, keep making educational videos, keep paying my employees, and keep fixing shit with or without this bill... but you can't spend as much time as I have in a business, and put as much time and effort into helping others build a livelihood for themselves in a business, and be happy with people telling you it is all illegal/illegitimate/bullshit.

5) I see this argument of consumers making informed choices and the economy supporting it. But for the most part, this is crap... nowhere on the box does it say "your iPhone 6+ will have the touch IC come desoldered from the board 14 months in." Nowhere on the box does it say "if you render a lot of video with your 2011 A1286 it will show bars on the screen"

Nowhere is the consumer warned of just how short the lifespan of many modern products are. It isn't like it's in the marketing materials or on the spec sheet. No one buys a device and plans on having it die, or plans on breaking it themselves.

6) Look at the automotive industry and you will see similar legislation passed several years ago in that business. If you want your only option to be service at the car dealer, great, most want options that will not rape them... including myself.

[bitslice]

Not sure if a thread exists as I noticed Dave posting about this on youtube. This thread seems an OK place to add this




I think the gist is that Apple want his repair videos taken down, Reddit then stepped in to get everything torrented.

--->  http://imgur.com/gallery/4o2pv

join in if you like, this is just a FYI

[retiredcaps]

Not sure if a thread exists as I noticed Dave posting about this on youtube. This thread seems an OK place to add this

Already exists ...

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/apple-turning-the-thumbscrews-on-louis-rossman/

[dannyf]

1) I see the word selfish brought up on the side of the repair shops. Isn't it selfish to use the world's limited resources in a manner that mandates they be wasted by throwing away a perfectly capable $1000 product with a $0.17 problem?

But that's not what you are legislating.

You always have the right to repair anything, your digital electronic devices included. No one is proposing a law to take that right away from you.

What your law is proposing to do is to compel the OEMs to make possible for independents like yourself to carry out repairs. That's just not how a free market works. Consumers have apparently made a choice to not buy devices made by OEMs who helped independent repairs possible. And I think we all should respect that choice.

It wouldn't surprise me if someone made a 1st amendment argument against such a law if it indeed passes.

My argument against it is simpler than that, however: what's there to prevent a right to repair repair law that compels you to disclose or otherwise make available your repairs to the next repair shop that the customer takes his digital electronics too?

[wraper]

What your law is proposing to do is to compel the OEMs to make possible for independents like yourself to carry out repairs. That's just not how a free market works. Consumers have apparently made a choice to not buy devices made by OEMs who helped independent repairs possible. And I think we all should respect that choice.

Bullshit, at the moment of purchase, consumers haven't thought about it at all. When they start to think about it, it's already too late. And anyway, it's not like consumers have that choice at all https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma, there are no 3rd party repair friendly mobile phone, laptop or similar product currently available on the market. In the past, schematic that came together with a device was something given by default.

[wraper]

My argument against it is simpler than that, however: what's there to prevent a right to repair repair law that compels you to disclose or otherwise make available your repairs to the next repair shop that the customer takes his digital electronics too?

Argument which does not hold any ground. He already repairs motherboards for other repair companies with bulk discounts. Secondly, currently there is nothing (other than profit margin) that prevents repair shop to bring those items to another repair shop.

[Tinkerer]

With this business going downhill its hard to find a legitimate repair shop anywhere, most places i see around my area are just rip-offs that dont seem like proper repair shops.

Its nice that component manufacturers still provide datasheets, schematics and information that apple doesnt even though they supply parts for apple as apple doesnt manufacture components. Anyone with the right tools can copy a product even without the schematics and the main problem about IP theft and copying is that those same factories producing products for these large companies use their off hours, skill and experience to make their own products not to mention China's politics and attitude towards foreign companies, these companies are just taking it out on others. Same thing in any country in Asia, when you outsource the work the people learn and start making their own versions of your product and they try to find a scapegoat when their sales and stock price decrease.

I think the component manufacturers kinda have to provide that on things that arnt specifically designed for a certain company/etc. They want people to buy their product and if no one can see what it does/the basic functions, no one would buy it - at least not most people. I guess it would be like designing a vehicle control panel and not telling people how the input/outputs work for it. I suppose thats all obvious though.

[vze1lryy]

Consumers have apparently made a choice to not buy devices made by OEMs who helped independent repairs possible. And I think we all should respect that choice.

I think what's being missed here is that there are no choices. None of these manufacturers release anything.

Imagine buying a car that did not allow you to take it to anyone but a dealer to change the oil.

Imagine if every car manufacturer you could purchase a car from in your locale did this.

Where is the choice? Show me this choice!

The only choice is to not buy anything. Which is ridiculous. If you live 100 miles from work, you need a car. It's 2016 - telling people to deal with disposable devices or go without a computer or a cellphone is silly.

[dannyf]

Imagine buying a car that did not allow you to take it to anyone but a dealer to change the oil.

A better analog to your example is to buy a car and demand that the car maker offers up engineering drawings, testing equipment, software, etc., so that your garage can fix it.

The consumers always have a choice here: they can have their phone fixed at an authorized repair shop, or at an independent shop. The fact that an independent shop may not be able to fix a phone inexpensively will be factored in the consumers decision in buying a phone or not, or buying a different phone, and that will drive OEM behaviors, if enough consumers care about it.

The issue for you unfortunately is that not enough consumers care about it. The consumers are making a conscientious trade-off between low upfront costs (so the OEM doesn't have to support independent repair shops post sales), and high repair costs.

Too bad that trade-off isn't in your favor but that's just how things work.

I said it earlier and I will continue to say it now: the proposed legislation is nothing but the use of governmental forces to ensure the survival of an industry. It is simply wrong.

[Brumby]

The issue for you unfortunately is that not enough consumers care about it. The consumers are making a conscientious trade-off between low upfront costs (so the OEM doesn't have to support independent repair shops post sales), and high repair costs.

I beg to differ.

From what I have observed, purchasers of Apple products are more interested in buying into the image, rather than making a conscious and considered assessment into the cost of ownership.  Further, that, generally, these owners are less technologically aware (at the lower level) of the device they hold - exemplified with their 'blind faith' approach to the OS and software.

They become more aware of these things when something goes wrong outside warranty.  What adds to the 'mystery and magic' is the attitude at the 'genius bar' (a phrase that still gives me a chuckle) where a Macbook mobo is declared as 'unrepairable' and anyone who says they can will rip you off.

I like Louis' response:

[lacek]

What your law is proposing to do is to compel the OEMs to make possible for independents like yourself to carry out repairs. That's just not how a free market works. Consumers have apparently made a choice to not buy devices made by OEMs who helped independent repairs possible. And I think we all should respect that choice.

Bullshit, at the moment of purchase, consumers haven't thought about it at all. When they start to think about it, it's already too late. And anyway, it's not like consumers have that choice at all https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma, there are no 3rd party repair friendly mobile phone, laptop or similar product currently available on the market. In the past, schematic that came together with a device was something given by default.

I beg my pardon. the very original statement is bogus from a very different reason.
You write correctly that there are not 3rd party repair friendly mobile phones, and many laptops are also unfriendly in that aspect. But this barely touches the reason why this argument is bogus.

There is a limited number of laptop manufacturers. There are several aspects of laptops that matter. Repairability is one of many, OS is another, then graphics, materials, local conditions (does brand X have any support in my area), specs etc, design

If the laptop which fulfils my expectations does not exist, then I have to compromise. Therefore the fact that majority of customers buys product with or without a certain feature does not imply that feature is desired/undesired. It merely implies that the total "usability" of laptop to most users is maximized if the user chooses a laptop (out of pool of laptops currently available on the market) with/without that feature.

In my case, I buy Apple laptops as I find myself mot productive in OSX environment.

[james_s]

In a free market, if enough people don't like a particular way a product is engineered, that product wouldn't sell enough to survive. The matter of the fact is that our society has moved away from the "repair" industry, whether rightly or wrongly.

That's defective reasoning. Most people don't have the knowledge or interest in repairing their equipment so they buy the stuff anyway, and when no manufactures make repair information available, I do not have a choice of simply buying products that do supply this information, none of them do. I'm not sure what you're ranting about anything being shoved down anyone's throat. How is this bill forcing you to repair your equipment? How is it shoving schematics down your throat? It simply mandates that this information be made available, which I think is perfectly reasonable. If I want to rip off the design I am fully capable of reverse engineering something, so that is not a valid reason to not provide the schematic.

[james_s]

Yeah, as a manufacturer I don't think I should be required to provide service information, updates and replacement parts.

I think you should, otherwise I don't think you should be required to stay in business. Car manufactures are required to provide repair parts and service information over a reasonable period of time and I don't think makers of consumer gear should be any different. For the most part I refuse to buy any new equipment these days, partly for reasons like this. I'll pick up used stuff and repair it myself despite manufactures going out of their way in some cases to make this difficult. The disposable society we live in is exceedingly efficient at converting valuable raw materials into billions of tons of landfill.

[X]

He and others are currently trying to get a bill passed in New York called the "Fair Repair Bill": http://newyork.repair.org/

It is a way for the government to legislate the existence of his industry onto the rest of us.

The right to repair something is always there, as is the consequence of such repair. What he is trying to do is to legislate a particular way products need to be repaired so to ensure the longevity and profitability of his industry, at the expense of the rest of the society.

In a free market, if enough people don't like a particular way a product is engineered, that product wouldn't sell enough to survive. The matter of the fact is that our society has moved away from the "repair" industry, whether rightly or wrongly.

using the government to jam down the throats of ordinary citizens for selfish reasons is just not what a society should do.

Yeah, as a manufacturer I don't think I should be required to provide service information, updates and replacement parts.  I can see the manufacturer's viewpoint.  If you make your devices repairable and provide information, does that get you more sales?  Or does it provide a worse consumer experience when repairs fail and/or shops blame issues on manufacturers when it was a repair shop that screwed up?  Or a customer repairs a device and sells it and it breaks for the next customer, leaving them a bad impression with the manufacturer despite the issue being caused by a shoddy repair.  And of course there's the issue of the manufacturer having their own repair system.  If they make the product, they should dictate what the OEM repair options are.  I think it's unfair for Apple to be forced to cut into their own business by divulging proprietary details of a product.



But I don't think this is to help Louis' business... I think he believes it in general.   If it passed, he would get more competition.  Better to be the one in a million guy who can fix something than one of a million guys who can fix something.

I do not see anything wrong with mandating manufacturers to release servicing details, updates, and schematics/details for serviceable parts, particularly for expensive gear. Now a days, a lot of expensive (and sometimes junky) gear use custom ASICs, SoCs, pre-progammed PICs and ROMs, etc. The manufacturers can make a fortune by selling those parts, just like genuine car parts.

The television sets of old came with circuit diagrams, and the TVs sold very well, right until the late 2000's (which was the last time I saw a CRT television brand new). Perhaps manufacturers should find another way to stay in business.

[technix]

I think the planned obsolesce is involved here.

Manufacturers now want their devices to die as soon as the warranty expires, and absolutely definitely DO NOT want anyone even think about repairing them. In their mind this way people will be forced to buy new items as often as possible and throwing away the (otherwise perfectly repairable) old ones. By keeping service manuals secret (or nonexistent) people will have very difficult time trying to repair their devices. And the authorized repair shop employees are instructed to try persuade people repairing out of warranty devices into giving up the repair and buy a new replacement.

Component manufacturers are just playing along with this game, keeping the manuals and datasheets of their publicly available products secret under NDA and refuse to even bother responding to individual or small business inquiries.

[Lord of nothing]

On the other side Repair anything as a Business is very risky.
I dont know how its in other Country but here if the thing who got repair by my or my company (if I had one) light in fire the first thing what happen the insurance company or the owner of the products get sued me. 
So I have to bring the evidence to proof that what I repair is 100% in the Standards.
When I use 1:1 OEM or original Parts the Judge may don't sue me or I have to sue the Company I got it from. 
That mean a death Cap replacing is not a technical more a Legal problem.

[TheUnnamedNewbie]

There is also the fact that even if you have all the technical data, most products are economicly non-viable to repair. This is after all the main reason that repair shops dissapeared (in general) - not because it's stopped by the stores, but simply because the systems become more complex and the time it takes to repair something is more expensive than buying a new one. People like to give examples like the apple 900-buck motherboard, but these are exceptions and an example of Apple "absuing" their "monopoly" on repair parts.

The complexity of equipment and skill needed also goes up as our things get smaller, faster and more integrated (which is not done so it's harder to repair - but because it's /cheaper/. You can't give someone a device that does what an iPhone or iPad or any other smartphone without using super integrated, application specific parts). Sure, Rossman might be able to make it work economicaly, but thats because he works on Apple products where he can charge "only" 200+ dollars instead of the hundreds more in a store. But on most of the products out there, 200 dollars is gonna come close to buying you a new product! Even if the manuals are out there, nobody is going to try and repair 400 euro TVs, or radios or smartphones. It will still be too expensive.

The porblem I have with much of the "right to repair" stuff is that it goes to far. I am opposed to the idea of it being illegal to repair stuff. I think it's perfectly fine that people should be allowed to tinker. And you own your product. But forcing manufacturers to go and hand out spares is just going to make the market more expensive.

And on the "planned obsolence" part - that statement always annoys me. People like to blame manufacturers when stuff breaks "because it broke just outside of my warranty". Look at how evil they are!
But I call BS. I have seen a lot of laptops and computers, I fixed them for a living (not the level that Rossman does cause it's not viable here). They don't fail because they are designed to fail. They fail because users abuse them. And most often, they don't fail at all! Most people just go out and buy the new fancy toy when it comes out 2 years later! Knowing that, why would they make a product that lasts 10 years, if you know 99% of your clients will not use it more than 2-3 years?

Same with the "keep the repair manuals secret". I doubt Apple or Microsoft have motherboard repair manuals themselves. They don't make em becuase nobody fixes those boards, even internally. It's not worth the money. What you are doing is forcing them to spend more money in the product design, making the product more expensive.

[X]

There is also the fact that even if you have all the technical data, most products are economicly non-viable to repair. This is after all the main reason that repair shops dissapeared (in general) - not because it's stopped by the stores, but simply because the systems become more complex and the time it takes to repair something is more expensive than buying a new one. People like to give examples like the apple 900-buck motherboard, but these are exceptions and an example of Apple "absuing" their "monopoly" on repair parts.

The complexity of equipment and skill needed also goes up as our things get smaller, faster and more integrated (which is not done so it's harder to repair - but because it's /cheaper/. You can't give someone a device that does what an iPhone or iPad or any other smartphone without using super integrated, application specific parts). Sure, Rossman might be able to make it work economicaly, but thats because he works on Apple products where he can charge "only" 200+ dollars instead of the hundreds more in a store. But on most of the products out there, 200 dollars is gonna come close to buying you a new product! Even if the manuals are out there, nobody is going to try and repair 400 euro TVs, or radios or smartphones. It will still be too expensive.

Try explaining that to Louis Rossman. He has the right equipment, and has the right supplies for many of his repairs.

The porblem I have with much of the "right to repair" stuff is that it goes to far. I am opposed to the idea of it being illegal to repair stuff. I think it's perfectly fine that people should be allowed to tinker. And you own your product. But forcing manufacturers to go and hand out spares is just going to make the market more expensive.

And on the "planned obsolence" part - that statement always annoys me. People like to blame manufacturers when stuff breaks "because it broke just outside of my warranty". Look at how evil they are!

And this problem has been created by manufacturers, so they should be the ones to fix it. I have had many devices fail either just outside warranty, or have significantly diminished performance. It is planned obsolescence when manufacturers make their products increasingly flimsy, to the point where they cannot be used under normal, expected operating conditions for more so many years.

But I call BS. I have seen a lot of laptops and computers, I fixed them for a living (not the level that Rossman does cause it's not viable here). They don't fail because they are designed to fail. They fail because users abuse them. And most often, they don't fail at all! Most people just go out and buy the new fancy toy when it comes out 2 years later! Knowing that, why would they make a product that lasts 10 years, if you know 99% of your clients will not use it more than 2-3 years?

How do the users "abuse" them? Most of the "abuse" I've seen is due to devices being unable to handle normal conditions that would be expected in normal circumstances.

Same with the "keep the repair manuals secret". I doubt Apple or Microsoft have motherboard repair manuals themselves. They don't make em becuase nobody fixes those boards, even internally. It's not worth the money. What you are doing is forcing them to spend more money in the product design, making the product more expensive.

One major thing that is being proposed is that companies are forced to not try and actively hide everything from those who are capable of repairing the equipment, and also forcing them not to make things harder or less economical to repair them. They would definitely make more money if they allowed other service centres to repair equipment, much like automotive dealers and mechanics.

Products used to be designed in a manner that they could be repaired, and now they are not. Instead, manufacturers are releasing new revisions like hotcakes, so essentially the OEMs/manufacturers have caused this problem. It hasn't helped that people are stupid enough to buy into the whole "next big thing" crap either, but all this has been created by the big shot manufacturers and OEMs.

[GreyWoolfe]

"How do the users "abuse" them? Most of the "abuse" I've seen is due to devices being unable to handle normal conditions that would be expected in normal circumstances."

Users abuse their toys all the time.  When I was doing Dell warranty repair work, there was a partner in a very large south Florida law firm who, when she traveled, would put her laptop in her checked luggage because she refused to carry it on the plane.  Several time a year, one of us would go out and repair the physical damage from the suitcase taking a beating from the baggage handlers or the screen blowing out from the unpressurized baggage hold.  The law firm had a platinum warranty on all their computer equipment so she didn't give a care, Dell would just fix it.  She was not an isolated incident.  While I worked for the company, I either saw or initiated  a void warranty several times because the abuse was bad enough.  Another case in point, I did a 2 week project involving the IT support group for Glaxo Smith Kline.  The company had back to back week long annual meetings for the sales force out in the field at a large south Florida hotel.  Dell shipped in several pallets of repair parts for the laptops they had.  I spent 2 weeks at the hotel repairing/rebuilding laptops that looked like they were put through a washing machine.  These road warriors were just hard on their equipment.  Abuse happens, intentional or not.  The 28 year old stepdaughter that lives with us has trashed hard drives/optical drives in 4 laptops because she get frustrated and beats them with her fists.  I no longer fix them and just let her buy a new one and build up the stack.

[TheUnnamedNewbie]

How do the users "abuse" them? Most of the "abuse" I've seen is due to devices being unable to handle normal conditions that would be expected in normal circumstances.

I beg to differ. People thowring laptops onto beds while the drives are spinning. Phones in purses along with keys and coins and then get angry when the screen gets cratched up. Playstation remotes that get thrown on the floor because people are too lazy to go put them down softly. Printers that get a good whack when it's not connecting to the Wi-Fi network. Laptops get picked up or carried (while playing a movie!) by the top left corner of the LCD. Desktop computers that are piled up with books and paper. Audio amplifiers that double as cup-holders, slowly having condensated water dripping into them eating away some traces. Heck, I've had a client where I had to replace the hard drive every 6 months because their dog would always stand under the desk when you are behind their computer and it's (massive - was some kind of german sheperd) tail would just beat up against the computer while the drive was spinning.

Smartphones or laptops can (And are) built that can take this - but they cost extra (this is part of the price you pay for a "prosumer" laptop like macbooks, MS Surface, Lenovo, ...). People want things cheap, so they get cheap. You can't build something like a tank to take all of this for 5 years AND sell it for 500 bucks.

Most of the people that I visit (as an IT repair guy) don't abuse their devices, and they still use laptops and phones years after they bought them. I'd estimate the average computer I work on is 4 years old. Even then, most of the damage is user inflicted.

[TheUnnamedNewbie]

Try explaining that to Louis Rossman. He has the right equipment, and has the right supplies for many of his repairs.

(...)

Same with the "keep the repair manuals secret". I doubt Apple or Microsoft have motherboard repair manuals themselves. They don't make em becuase nobody fixes those boards, even internally. It's not worth the money. What you are doing is forcing them to spend more money in the product design, making the product more expensive.

One major thing that is being proposed is that companies are forced to not try and actively hide everything from those who are capable of repairing the equipment, and also forcing them not to make things harder or less economical to repair them. They would definitely make more money if they allowed other service centres to repair equipment, much like automotive dealers and mechanics.

Products used to be designed in a manner that they could be repaired, and now they are not. Instead, manufacturers are releasing new revisions like hotcakes, so essentially the OEMs/manufacturers have caused this problem. It hasn't helped that people are stupid enough to buy into the whole "next big thing" crap either, but all this has been created by the big shot manufacturers and OEMs.

There might be to some extent a mindset of "repairability" back then. But there is little point of still doing it because for most products it's not economicly viable. Rossman is in a niche market - apple repairs are stupid expensive so have can charge a few hundred bucks for a motherboard repair and still be cheaper than a official repair. You can't do this with 90% of the phones out their with exception of high-level module damage (broken camera, screen, battery). How are you going to make an android phone more repairable? You can't even fit testpoints in there if you wanted to! Let alone any more complex test facilities.

I'm not against the bill - I'm just saying that a lot of the "anti-company" things being said are, in my opinion, not fully justified and/or not thought through. I'm all for the not-actively-hiding-stuff! But in the end the fact is that everything is more and more integrated and smaller, and there are limits to how far we can go. You just can't expect board-level repair to be viable on most things anymore, at least not in most of the world.

[james_s]

The companies don't have to "hand out" replacement parts, just make custom ASICs and whatnot available at a reasonable cost, it's not as if they're going to have to sell millions of them. If they don't want to sell replacement microcontrollers and such they can provide the firmware binaries, their choice. The main thing is the documentation, provide a service manual with schematics for download. There is no reason to hide the schematic, it can be reverse engineered if someone really wants to, it just isn't worth it for someone just wanting to repair the gear.

The added costs of doing all this can simply be tacked on to the price of the equipment. Consumer electronics have become ludicrously cheap these days, you can buy a new big screen TV for $400 now, it's absurdly cheap and everyone just throws them away when they break, the total cost is much higher but it is paid indirectly. It used to be stuff was expensive, people were paid a decent wage to build it in developed nations and there was a whole industry that existed around repairing this expensive equipment. People typically kept a TV for 20 years or more and there was far less waste.

[P90]

Does anyone else see the irony...in his video's he constantly calls Apple shit and calls them assholes, yet he wants them to kindly hand over their schematics etc...

[boffin]

The big issue where this is really coming to a head is John Deere tractors; JD make Apple look kindler/gentler with respect to offering up support.  This is also why a lot of the right to repair bills were originally introduced in rural farming states like Nebraska.

As for my own experience with this sort of nonsense, I drive a Mercedes.  A sensor in my transmission failed, and the only option is to buy a new sensor plate from the stealership because the sensor is tied to the VIN of your car    Turns out that there is a small shop in Bulgaria that disassembles, fixes, reassembles and guarantees the old sensor plates (keeping the VIN), for 1/3 (including return DHL) the price of the dealer part.  You just have to wait 10 days for the part to get flown across the world and back.

It's cost MB  a customer in the future, and part of my checklist for buying a car in the future will include "Does you car contain any DRM parts".  Until consumers do this, the shenanigans will continue.

[P90]

The big issue where this is really coming to a head is John Deere tractors; JD make Apple look kindler/gentler with respect to offering up support.  This is also why a lot of the right to repair bills were originally introduced in rural farming states like Nebraska.

As for my own experience with this sort of nonsense, I drive a Mercedes.  A sensor in my transmission failed, and the only option is to buy a new sensor plate from the stealership because the sensor is tied to the VIN of your car    Turns out that there is a small shop in Bulgaria that disassembles, fixes, reassembles and guarantees the old sensor plates (keeping the VIN), for 1/3 (including return DHL) the price of the dealer part.  You just have to wait 10 days for the part to get flown across the world and back.

It's cost MB  a customer in the future, and part of my checklist for buying a car in the future will include "Does you car contain any DRM parts".  Until consumers do this, the shenanigans will continue.

I believe the reasoning behind that is to make it difficult for shady shops from cheating mileage readings...

[rch]

Does anyone else see the irony...in his video's he constantly calls Apple shit and calls them assholes, yet he wants them to kindly hand over their schematics etc...

I don't see much irony;  1.  the way he talks is largely style rather than substance, somewhat "urban", and 2.   he's not asking for a favour, he's asking them to fulfill their moral obligations.

[P90]

Does anyone else see the irony...in his video's he constantly calls Apple shit and calls them assholes, yet he wants them to kindly hand over their schematics etc...

I don't see much irony;  1.  the way he talks is largely style rather than substance, somewhat "urban", and 2.   he's not asking for a favour, he's asking them to fulfill their moral obligations.

he is vulgar and obnoxious...  I doubt any self-respecting company would hire him. moral obligations or intellectual properties...

[rch]

Does anyone else see the irony...in his video's he constantly calls Apple shit and calls them assholes, yet he wants them to kindly hand over their schematics etc...

I don't see much irony;  1.  the way he talks is largely style rather than substance, somewhat "urban", and 2.   he's not asking for a favour, he's asking them to fulfill their moral obligations.

he is vulgar and obnoxious...  I doubt any self-respecting company would hire him. moral obligations or intellectual properties...

"Intellectual property" is a purely social construct, not a natural right, and society can reconstruct it however it feels is appropriate to meet the needs of the owner and the rest of society.  And the rights of companies, as opposed to individuals, are even more obviously not "human rights" but just part of how society wants to organise itself.  Mr Rossman has an opinion on that, which I happen to largely share.

[cdev]

They hate the idea of repair and open hardware internals not just because of planned obsolescence and DRM.

Some corporations, just like corrupt political parties and politicians, see customers as their property to be milked of every penny possible.

This is a talk on "The War on General Purpose Computing"

[technix]

It seem to me that the repairing issue is a kind of antitrust issue..?

[cdev]

This isn't true at all, many products are quite economically viable to repair, also the knowledge to do so is a viable skill that doesn't require a PhD to perform. We're going to have a hell of a lot of unemployed people in a few years and we would be wise to be a little less penny wise and pound foolish as they say.

Recently, I've seen terrifying estimates of job losses in the next few years, after a study from Princeton economist Alan Blinder in the mid 2000s estimating that the US was going to lose 26% of its jobs to offshoring, there was a lot of skepticism and a few years later a group of students at Harvard revisited the question and they came to the conclusion that Blinder had actually underestimated the number. Their study found that more than 40% of the US's jobs were in imminent danger, with most of those jobs being moved to developing countries and a great many being eventually automated. The number I have read repeatedly is within the next few years we will lose 40% to automation. Of course there is substantial amount of overlap, but not as much as people would wish. I'm sure major corporations are panicking looking at those numbers and are trying to extract rents, looking at every possible way  they can maintain their high levels of profits.

However, that is the kind of thinking that has always backfired on the organizations that engaged in it.

Yes, for many years many products have been getting cheaper and for a great deal of electronics that may now mean they are rarely repaired but also, repairing hardware if enjoying a resurgence as more and more people develop the skills to do it. As that's a very creative skillset to have we should be encouraging it, especially as it gets harder and harder for even people with advanced degrees to get traditional jobs.

Quote from: TheUnnamedNewbie on Today at 05:34:53>>"There is also the fact that even if you have all the technical data, most products are economicly non-viable to repair. This is after all the main reason that repair shops dissapeared (in general) - not because it's stopped by the stores, but simply because the systems become more complex and the time it takes to repair something is more expensive than buying a new one. People like to give examples like the apple 900-buck motherboard, but these are exceptions and an example of Apple "absuing" their "monopoly" on repair parts."


Don't get me started on Apple repair stories, I have a lot of my own. Suffice it to say that after the three year Apple Care period is up people are usually nuts to bring a computer to Apple because that will be the last they see of it without paying them more than what it is worth. They really dont want to fix things. This has led to a thriving repair business as many people see it as their only alternative.

>"The complexity of equipment and skill needed also goes up as our things get smaller, faster and more integrated (which is not done so it's harder to repair - but because it's /cheaper/. You can't give someone a device that does what an iPhone or iPad or any other smartphone without using super integrated, application specific parts)".

I disagree. Whats been happening is lots of alternatives to proprietary closed source products have opened up hat are less closed ecosystems and hat has meant companies have to work harder for their money.


>"Sure, Rossman might be able to make it work economically, but that's because he works on Apple products where he can charge "only" 200+ dollars instead of the hundreds more in a store. But on most of the products out there, 200 dollars is gonna come close to buying you a new product! Even if the manuals are out there, nobody is going to try and repair 400 euro TVs, or radios or smartphones. It will still be too expensive".

People can't afford the prices that they used to afford back in the 90s and early 2000s. Lots of people, including millions of students who made purchases assuming wrongly that they would be working in a few years and are now deeply buried in debt,  are working in the "gig economy" or worse, internships, which leave many barely enough to eat and pay rent, or often homeless and couch surfing, so them buying new $1500 laptops that break in three years is frankly never going to happen.


>"The problem (fixed spelling) I have with much of the "right to repair" stuff is that it goes too far.

How could it "go too far" for people to have a right to fix their own property written into laws?

I am opposed to the idea of it being illegal to repair stuff. I think it's perfectly fine that people should be allowed to tinker. And you own your product. But forcing manufacturers to go and hand out spares is just going to make the market more expensive."

Hand out spares? That's ludicrous. They charge an arm and a leg for things if they can. For that reason I think its reasonable to require that products do what can be done with minimal effort to make heir products remain functional. Otherwise you have a situation like one I have been following where a popular tablet's manufacturer seems to have not just abandoned software updates, instead they have pushed updates that broke their products for their main use cases. (watching Youtube videos, etc) This is just nuts. Millions of people deserve a refund at the least.

Its common sense to make products that can be repaired. that's why savvy people here, especially, buy some brands or models and avoid others.

"And on the "planned obsolence" part - that statement always annoys me. People like to blame manufacturers when stuff breaks "because it broke just outside of my warranty". Look at how evil they are!"

Thats intentional, and it was encouraged by government for a long time. the idea was to create a wartime level of profit for industry by shaming people into buying ever more and more useless junk instead of doing other things with their money.

"But I call BS. I have seen a lot of laptops and computers, I fixed them for a living (not the level that Rossman does cause it's not viable here). They don't fail because they are designed to fail. They fail because users abuse them. And most often, they don't fail at all! Most people just go out and buy the new fancy toy when it comes out 2 years later! Knowing that, why would they make a product that lasts 10 years, if you know 99% of your clients will not use it more than 2-3 years?"

That's not true at all. People use them as long as they remain useful. Sometimes for a decade or more.

>"Same with the "keep the repair manuals secret". I doubt Apple or Microsoft have motherboard repair manuals themselves. They don't make em because nobody fixes those boards, even internally. It's not worth the money. What you are doing is forcing them to spend more money in the product design, making the product more expensive."

Apple has extensive repair literature but from what I remember - youre right, it is 100% more focused on doing board level than component level repair.

We all should wake up and smell the coffee, we need to be more frugal and less out of touch with economic reality. Its common sense to repair and support repair-ability.

[cdev]

Definitely. Also, a growing body of irreversible,undemocratic trade rules require that governments not make any "measure" that impairs the profitability of "investors" even if those requirements mean they cannot govern the way hey are supposed to. The public is profoundly ignorant that this has happened so their expectations are still that voting out one group of crooks will allow these problems to get fixed if a mistake is made however, nowadays these deals "ratchet" means that once a change is made it's more and more likely to become impossible to fix if that fix involves reducing some multinational corporations profitability. In the last two decades, very quietly, any change in laws that reduces profits has become "indirect expropriation". So, for the people, things can only get worse, not better. Nomatter who they vote for. Quite arguably, often the best we can hope for is that they do nothing at all.

In the case of repair, that requirement will likely mean that governments wont be able to do anything thats reduces profits unless its literally an emergency, and if that is the case, a government cant fix anything by any means other than the least burdensome (to corporations) way.

People arent even on this map. We have no standing except as markets to whom the rights are bought and sold to, which cant be devalued.



Quote from: technix on Today at 18:04:46

It seem to me that the repairing issue is a kind of antitrust issue..?

[cdev]

A friend's brother used to be the art director for what I still consider to be the nicest glossy advertising magazine. And one day he told me the real story of planned obsolescence. At its core was s scheme to force people to buy cars. Not just buy cars, buy new ones every few years.

In order to do that they had to destroy (by privatizing and then dismantling) what was then the best mass transit system in the world. Thats what created the underclass. And caused a series of wars for oil.

[MarkS]

A friend's brother used to be the art director for what I still consider to be the nicest glossy advertising magazine. And one day he told me the real story of planned obsolescence. At its core was s scheme to force people to buy cars. Not just buy cars, buy new ones every few years.

In order to do that they had to destroy (by privatizing and then dismantling) what was then the best mass transit system in the world. Thats what created the underclass. And caused a series of wars for oil.

That's some master level tinfoil hattery right there.

[mtdoc]

A friend's brother used to be the art director for what I still consider to be the nicest glossy advertising magazine. And one day he told me the real story of planned obsolescence. At its core was s scheme to force people to buy cars. Not just buy cars, buy new ones every few years.

In order to do that they had to destroy (by privatizing and then dismantling) what was then the best mass transit system in the world. Thats what created the underclass. And caused a series of wars for oil.

See General Motors Streetcar Conspiracy

[cdev]

The Wikipedia article goes to great lengths to trivialize and nullify an important piece of the historical record..
But it's full of misrepresentations. For example multiple holding companies were involved in more than 100 US cities.


Also, they were convicted.




Quote from: mtdoc on 2017-06-11, 23:47:32

>Quote from: cdev on 2017-06-11, 23:05:37

A friend's brother used to be the art director for what I still consider to be the nicest glossy advertising magazine. And one day he told me the real story of planned obsolescence. At its core was s scheme to force people to buy cars. Not just buy cars, buy new ones every few years.

In order to do that they had to destroy (by privatizing and then dismantling) what was then the best mass transit system in the world. Thats what created the underclass. And caused a series of wars for oil.

See General Motors Streetcar Conspiracy

[rstofer]

People can't afford the prices that they used to afford back in the 90s and early 2000s. Lots of people, including millions of students who made purchases assuming wrongly that they would be working in a few years and are now deeply buried in debt,  are working in the "gig economy" or worse, internships, which leave many barely enough to eat and pay rent, or often homeless and couch surfing, so them buying new $1500 laptops that break in three years is frankly never going to happen.

As I am sure Shakespeare must have said (somewhere):  "Life's a bitch and then you die!".


So, let's suppose a device has a defective program flash and the repair shop wants to simply replace the chip.  Do they expect the manufacturer to send them the code to stuff into the flash?  There'e a good chance that will never happen!  Or, maybe it uses one of the uCs with onboard flash.  Do they expect the manufacturer to make the pre-programmed chip, the very heart of their product, available to rebuilders?  Never going to happen!

When I walk into the cell phone store, they want to upgrade my phone but there's a catch.  Sure, the new phone is free but I have to select $200 worth of accessories which will also be free but I have to pay the sales tax on the entire package.  So, I get a new phone plus a bunch of stuff for 10% of list price.  And I have to give them my old phone, working or not.  Why in the world would I care about repairing a phone?

Auto manufacturers do provide a certain amount of service information and after market manuals (Chilton, among others) have more information.  What they don't have is the source code to the ECU nor does the manufacturer provide any information whatsoever.  Why not?  They don't want people modifying their vehicles so as to not be in compliance with environmental regulations.  They will sell you an ECU but they won't disclose anything about repairing it.  Heck, you can go to a junkyard and just buy an ECU.

I'm not convinced of the economic benefits of repairing modern electronics.  In the first place, I don't get out of bed for less than $100/hr.  There is simply nothing I have that I could repair for that kind of money.  The good news is that most retailers will haul away the old TV when they install the new one.  I did repair a monitor one time when the failure (capacitors) was so well known that there was a 'repair kit' available.  It was a close call, it took a couple of hours and if it hadn't been a NEC MultiSync I wouldn't have bothered.  Of course, this all predates LCDs.  Today, I would whine and snivel and then just buy a replacement!

[technix]

People can't afford the prices that they used to afford back in the 90s and early 2000s. Lots of people, including millions of students who made purchases assuming wrongly that they would be working in a few years and are now deeply buried in debt,  are working in the "gig economy" or worse, internships, which leave many barely enough to eat and pay rent, or often homeless and couch surfing, so them buying new $1500 laptops that break in three years is frankly never going to happen.

As I am sure Shakespeare must have said (somewhere):  "Life's a bitch and then you die!".


So, let's suppose a device has a defective program flash and the repair shop wants to simply replace the chip.  Do they expect the manufacturer to send them the code to stuff into the flash?  There'e a good chance that will never happen!  Or, maybe it uses one of the uCs with onboard flash.  Do they expect the manufacturer to make the pre-programmed chip, the very heart of their product, available to rebuilders?  Never going to happen!

When I walk into the cell phone store, they want to upgrade my phone but there's a catch.  Sure, the new phone is free but I have to select $200 worth of accessories which will also be free but I have to pay the sales tax on the entire package.  So, I get a new phone plus a bunch of stuff for 10% of list price.  And I have to give them my old phone, working or not.  Why in the world would I care about repairing a phone?

Auto manufacturers do provide a certain amount of service information and after market manuals (Chilton, among others) have more information.  What they don't have is the source code to the ECU nor does the manufacturer provide any information whatsoever.  Why not?  They don't want people modifying their vehicles so as to not be in compliance with environmental regulations.  They will sell you an ECU but they won't disclose anything about repairing it.  Heck, you can go to a junkyard and just buy an ECU.

I'm not convinced of the economic benefits of repairing modern electronics.  In the first place, I don't get out of bed for less than $100/hr.  There is simply nothing I have that I could repair for that kind of money.  The good news is that most retailers will haul away the old TV when they install the new one.  I did repair a monitor one time when the failure (capacitors) was so well known that there was a 'repair kit' available.  It was a close call, it took a couple of hours and if it hadn't been a NEC MultiSync I wouldn't have bothered.  Of course, this all predates LCDs.  Today, I would whine and snivel and then just buy a replacement!

When you work 50 hours a week, have less than 6 hours of sleep a day, and only earns $1.5k after taxation a month from all that, and the phone upgrade plan is either nonexistent or an extremely low rebate, you will have to hope that repair shops exist. And I am already earning 2x as much as my college peers with less working hours (they work 60-80 hours a week worst case scenario while earning a bit more than $700 a month.)

[Nusa]

History goes in cycles. This reminds of of what my Dad once told me about buying cars. The factory service manuals at the time were available only to dealerships. You couldn't buy a copy. Dad always insisted the service manual for the vehicle (which in those days was a single book) included in the sale. They balked a bit, but in the end the fairly independent dealers always cared more about making the sale than a silly factory rule.

The advice is dated, of course, since car manuals are available to the public now. But the lesson is that you sometimes have leverage to get hard-to-obtain information out of salesmen who really want to make a big sale.

[rustybronco]

In the 43 years that I've been in dealerships, you've always been able to buy a factory service manual.

[rstofer]

When you work 50 hours a week, have less than 6 hours of sleep a day, and only earns $1.5k after taxation a month from all that, and the phone upgrade plan is either nonexistent or an extremely low rebate, you will have to hope that repair shops exist. And I am already earning 2x as much as my college peers with less working hours (they work 60-80 hours a week worst case scenario while earning a bit more than $700 a month.)

Been there, done that!  60 hour work weeks and EE school at night, 5 nights a week, 3 semesters a year for 4 very long years, married with a child, house payments, car payments and the rest of it.  Still have the scars!  One thing I learned:  Either work hard in school or work hard the rest of your life.  Make a choice!

I don't live in China so I don't know anything about the cost of living.  I do know what our mortgage costs and I have some idea about the rest of our expenses.  It takes two incomes although my contribution is just what I get in retirement.

Why would I care about a cell phone?  My wife insists I carry it so she can annoy me any time she wants.  If I didn't have the phone, I wouldn't care.  About the only thing that is useful is the Lowe's app where it helps me find what I want in their oversized stores.  Now that's cool!  But I could ask an employee if they had any.  Or go to a smaller hardware store...

I like watching TV but I would rather read a book.  These days I prefer Kindle but I can still work a hardbound.  Do I really need cable TV?  Probably not but I would still like to have cable networking.  That, I would pay for.

If I had to pay retail for a cell phone, I simply wouldn't have one.  Those things are expensive!  Are they really necessary or just a way of "keeping up with the Joneses"?

[Nusa]

In the 43 years that I've been in dealerships, you've always been able to buy a factory service manual.

That anecdote dates back to about 1963, told to me while Dad was making use of a 1957 Chevy Apache service manual. So 54 years ago.
But you're right, by the time I was old enough to drive, that situation had changed.

[tooki]

"How do the users "abuse" them? Most of the "abuse" I've seen is due to devices being unable to handle normal conditions that would be expected in normal circumstances."

Users abuse their toys all the time.  When I was doing Dell warranty repair work, there was a partner in a very large south Florida law firm who, when she traveled, would put her laptop in her checked luggage because she refused to carry it on the plane.  Several time a year, one of us would go out and repair the physical damage from the suitcase taking a beating from the baggage handlers or the screen blowing out from the unpressurized baggage hold.  The law firm had a platinum warranty on all their computer equipment so she didn't give a care, Dell would just fix it.  She was not an isolated incident.  While I worked for the company, I either saw or initiated  a void warranty several times because the abuse was bad enough.  Another case in point, I did a 2 week project involving the IT support group for Glaxo Smith Kline.  The company had back to back week long annual meetings for the sales force out in the field at a large south Florida hotel.  Dell shipped in several pallets of repair parts for the laptops they had.  I spent 2 weeks at the hotel repairing/rebuilding laptops that looked like they were put through a washing machine.  These road warriors were just hard on their equipment.  Abuse happens, intentional or not.  The 28 year old stepdaughter that lives with us has trashed hard drives/optical drives in 4 laptops because she get frustrated and beats them with her fists.  I no longer fix them and just let her buy a new one and build up the stack.

Yep, a lot of people are extremely abusive to their gear and just consider it "normal".

FYI, it is an absolute myth that cargo holds in passenger aircraft are unpressurized. There's no advantage to having an unpressurized hold, yet from a structural engineering perspective, it would be FAR harder to implement. (The round shape of the fuselage is a strong shape; the flat side of a semicircle is not.) And it would cause passengers' toiletries to explode, as well as drastically restrict the cargo shipments the airline could accept, including live animals. In fact, there are air vents in the floor separating the passenger compartment from the cargo hold, specifically for pressure equalization, because in the past, it has happened that depressurization of the cargo hold led to the floor collapsing due to the pressure differential, severing control cables and causing loss of control.

So those LCDs were not damaged by the vacuum reduced air pressure (sorry, always forget I can't use jokes on eevblog) of high altitude, but rather just ordinary rough handling.

[Brumby]

Certainly, the cylindrical shape of an aircraft's fuselage is designed for reasons of air pressure - but to talk about a "vacuum" at high altitude is misleading.  There is no vacuum around an aeroplane but, yes, the external air pressure is lower at cruise altitudes than it is at sea level.

However, the internal air pressure of the aircraft at cruising altitude is not the same as it is at sea level.  Sea level is 14.7 psi whereas, at altitude, the cabin pressure of a passenger aircraft will be about 3 psi lower.

The question is - how would this 3 psi pressure difference affect a product?

(Since this is roughly the same air pressure as experienced in Mexico city - do they have an LCD screen problem there?)

[tooki]

It was a joke, man... obviously I know it's not a vacuum. There's no aerodynamic lift in a vacuum. I was poking fun at the absurdity of an LCD exploding at altitude.

I always forget that I can't use jokes or anything less than surgical precision on this forum...

[Brumby]

The reason why I commented was for clarification - because sometimes there will be readers who will take you literally.

Also "exploding " is a bit melodramatic.   The question about pressure difference is not seeking such violent outcomes.

[tooki]

Well, the person I was replying to said "the screen blowing out from the unpressurized baggage hold". Doesn't sound to me like they were referring to minor leakage (which even that I doubt is possible in an LCD at any kind of atmospheric or aviation air pressure), but of something substantial. I maintain that is also due to physical abuse.

[Brumby]

The phrase "blowing out" can mean anything from a bulge that causes failure to the full on explosive failure.  At least it does to me.

I would also be curious that simple air pressure differences could cause a screen failure - especially when the variation covers the range of common human settlement.  My previous point about Mexico City is a case in point.

[tooki]

Hence why (for the third time) I maintain that atmospheric pressure could not be to blame. Throwing it in the checked luggage is a vastly more plausible explanation.

Also, assuming that the liquid crystals in LCDs are in fact true liquids, then they are by definition incompressible, and thus the atmospheric pressure is irrelevant. Only if there were gases contained within the sealed part of the display (including as dissolved gas) would it matter in any way.

[james_s]

I repair almost everything I own, sometimes it would be cheaper to buy a new one but I'll repair it anyway because I enjoy the sense of accomplishment. On average though I've come out *far* ahead, I figure a dollar of my money is worth at least $2-$3 of the average person's money because there's so much I can do myself instead of paying someone else. I've never paid money for a TV but I've owned more of them than I can count. My main 60" LED LCD, the 50" downstairs and the 46" spare were all free, all just needed one of the LEDs in the backlight replaced. The 27" Sony XBR for the classic console games was free many years ago, had a bad solder joint. Dishwasher was free, fancy front load washer was free, had a bad solder joint in the motor controller and the owner was quoted $450 to replace it. They tossed in the matching dryer which had nothing wrong with it for free. I've gotten multiple cars for free, one of them had broken down on the side of the road, I resoldered the fuel pump relay with a butane soldering iron and drove it home. Another had a minor problem and wouldn't start, paid him $500 for it, repaired it and drove it for 17 years until a truck rear ended me and totaled it. If an item is deliberately difficult to repair, I won't buy it. If there's no support and replacement parts available and I can't find it used, there's no advantage to the name brand and I'll buy the cheap one direct from China.

[P90]

I repair almost everything I own, sometimes it would be cheaper to buy a new one but I'll repair it anyway because I enjoy the sense of accomplishment. On average though I've come out *far* ahead, I figure a dollar of my money is worth at least $2-$3 of the average person's money because there's so much I can do myself instead of paying someone else. I've never paid money for a TV but I've owned more of them than I can count. My main 60" LED LCD, the 50" downstairs and the 46" spare were all free, all just needed one of the LEDs in the backlight replaced. The 27" Sony XBR for the classic console games was free many years ago, had a bad solder joint. Dishwasher was free, fancy front load washer was free, had a bad solder joint in the motor controller and the owner was quoted $450 to replace it. They tossed in the matching dryer which had nothing wrong with it for free. I've gotten multiple cars for free, one of them had broken down on the side of the road, I resoldered the fuel pump relay with a butane soldering iron and drove it home. Another had a minor problem and wouldn't start, paid him $500 for it, repaired it and drove it for 17 years until a truck rear ended me and totaled it. If an item is deliberately difficult to repair, I won't buy it. If there's no support and replacement parts available and I can't find it used, there's no advantage to the name brand and I'll buy the cheap one direct from China.

That's being very resourceful! bravo.

[Brumby]

I had a washing machine given as a wedding gift.  It was a Hoover front-loader that sounded like a jet engine revving up when it went into the spin, but I kept that thing going for 25 years until one day when I was away and it started playing up.  The mother-in-law found this a perfect opportunity to step in and bought a Maytag for the wife.  Turns out this had a known weakness in a control board, which was swapped out once during warranty - and once out of warranty.  That was a very expensive board to replace, but when I looked at it, I could not see any correlation between the cost and what was on the board.

One of my sons was working for one of the Bosch group companies, so when the Maytag failed again, all the kids chipped in and got mum a nice big Bosch washer.  It has been brilliant.

[jh15]

I want a FSM for my 2017 Tesla.

In 1971, I ordered the factory service manuals for my my mother's Toyota Corona MKII. It was several manuals stacked about a foot high. "emmisions manual" was new to me learned all about analog emission control for other cars from that book.

'86 Ford Aerostar, my first new car. Lemon. Manual was 130.00 or so, huge stack and color fold-out schematic binder. Dealer could not find why trailer towing package was not working the lights.

I brought in my own schematics and we traced it to corrosion on PCB from wheel well that was leaking and spraying on the board. One of the many recalls was that board catching fire.

Dumping that in 2 years of grief, bought an '89 dodge caravan, kept 20 years. Great FSM for 100.00 or so.

My new Tesla. No end user service manuals for me.

Only if you'r resident in Massachusetts, you can get timed access online for $30.00/hr or $3000.00/year.  And that is ONLY because of the right to repair act being passed in Massachusetts. Me in Maine: no access. At time of purchase I had read that TESLA was releasing information, guess not.

Kudos for Louis's travel and efforts to legislature to help get this passed in more states.

Speaking of repair manuals, back in beginning of microwaves, 1971 or so I bought a Magic Chef microwave only because on request they sent me 2 thick manuals, parts list schematcs and theory of operation. Before I bought it!

Lasted decades. I minor and only minor fix I did because of having manual.

I understand safety on modding autopilot firmware and so forth, but I want to diagnose and determine what needs repair myself, and bring to a trusted Garage.

[tooki]

I had a washing machine given as a wedding gift.  It was a Hoover front-loader that sounded like a jet engine revving up when it went into the spin, but I kept that thing going for 25 years until one day when I was away and it started playing up.  The mother-in-law found this a perfect opportunity to step in and bought a Maytag for the wife.  Turns out this had a known weakness in a control board, which was swapped out once during warranty - and once out of warranty.  That was a very expensive board to replace, but when I looked at it, I could not see any correlation between the cost and what was on the board.

One of my sons was working for one of the Bosch group companies, so when the Maytag failed again, all the kids chipped in and got mum a nice big Bosch washer.  It has been brilliant.

Sadly, Bosch isn't what it used to be, either.

A few years ago I moved into a newly renovated apartment, with all new appliances from Bosch/Siemens. After a year, the dishwasher door lost its spring-loading. They came to fix it under warranty, during which the repairman knew exactly what had failed (the spring attaches to the door via a nylon string, itself anchored in a nylon fitting which is what failed), and said it happens all the time with them. Then he ran a "test" cycle with a bottle of dishwasher cleaner (i.e. care product/sanitizer for the machine, not dish detergent) and left me another bottle of the care product "to run in a month or two".

And then they sent me a bill for two bottles of care product! I fought them on the phone (cuz I didn't ask for it) and they actually went to the effort to come back and pick up the unused bottle, instead of saying "sorry for the confusion, keep it with our compliments". They surely spent more on labor to get it than it was worth. (They sold them for about $8 each, so their cost couldn't have been over a dollar or two. I didn't pay not because I couldn't afford it, but because I refuse to be swindled. If they'd actually asked beforehand, I might have said yes...)

I haven't had any trouble with the other appliances, but they don't feel a lot better than cheaper stuff. :/

[3db]

I think Louis started all this because companies were trying for legislation to make it illegal to repair things.

3DB.

[james_s]

I had a washing machine given as a wedding gift.  It was a Hoover front-loader that sounded like a jet engine revving up when it went into the spin, but I kept that thing going for 25 years until one day when I was away and it started playing up.  The mother-in-law found this a perfect opportunity to step in and bought a Maytag for the wife.  Turns out this had a known weakness in a control board, which was swapped out once during warranty - and once out of warranty.  That was a very expensive board to replace, but when I looked at it, I could not see any correlation between the cost and what was on the board.

One of my sons was working for one of the Bosch group companies, so when the Maytag failed again, all the kids chipped in and got mum a nice big Bosch washer.  It has been brilliant.

Mine is a Maytag Neptune, they were rather notorious for breaking down initially, worked out well for me since I snagged another free one and the matching dryer for my mom. I had to replace the whole motor driver board but that worked out ok because my friend happened to have a spare he got via a warranty repair mistake with his similar washer. Eventually mine also had the door lock wax motor problem which blows a triac on the control board, I replaced that with a much beefier triac, replaced the wax motor and haven't had an issue with that since. More recently the main shaft seals failed on my mom's and about a year later on mine leading to bearing failure. Cost 60 bucks for a bearing and seal kit which seemed reasonable after 10 years or using a free washer so I replaced the bearings on both machines, hopefully they'll be good for another decade. There isn't a whole lot that can fail in them that I can't fix.

[Brumby]

I would have liked to have a look at the Maytag board (sounds like it might be the same problem you encountered) - but it came from the M.I.L. who always knows best     so I wasn't going anywhere near the thing.

Politics trumps curiosity.

[cdev]

The huge fire in the Uk Grenfell tower was started by a refrigerator blowing up.

Turned into a death trap.


They should stock parachutes in tall buildings...

[james_s]

I would have liked to have a look at the Maytag board (sounds like it might be the same problem you encountered) - but it came from the M.I.L. who always knows best     so I wasn't going anywhere near the thing.

Politics trumps curiosity.

There's really nothing remarkable about the board, it's a cheap phenolic PCB stuffed with mostly through-hole components and a SMT microcontroller. The door lock motor is controlled by a triac which is a little TO-92 device just barely adequate to drive a properly working motor. For some reason some of them would develop unusually low resistance and blow the triac.

[jonovid]

he makes interesting SMD videos,    but can forget to hit the stop button after 3 hrs. 

[james_s]

Some of the videos really are too long, the same is occasionally true of Dave's videos too though. I enjoy them a lot but admittedly I find myself skipping sections fairly frequently.