Author Topic: [Solved] MacBook recommendation needed  (Read 10881 times)

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Offline blueskullTopic starter

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[Solved] MacBook recommendation needed
« on: August 17, 2017, 04:08:07 am »
As I'm working on a software that is designed to run on OSX, I need a machine to run OSX itself. I want to try to stay away from software piracy, so Hackintosh is not in my scope.
That is to say, I need a Mac. First of all, I DON'T CARE ABOUT GRAPHICS, and I DON'T CARE ABOUT QUAD CORE. I will only run XCode for work, and Safari (YouTube) for recreation. Maybe some casual games during day time in lab, but that will be something like MineCraft without material pack.

Also, I prefer a new or open box device, rather than a previous generation used device. Computers just develop so fast that performance per watt increasing per generation is too great to be offset by a slight price drop, plus I prefer my device to come with no scuffs and dents.
I originally wanted to buy a Macmini, but since the 2017 version is not yet released, if there will be 2017 version. The 2014 base version has only 4GB of non-upgradeable RAM, which is apparently inadequate for modern uses. The 2,5GHz, 8GB version, even used, is more than $500, which makes it less attractive, especially considering it doesn't have a screen, so its mobility is severely limited.

I'm looking at a Macbook, and I would like to hear some recommendations.
I will keep as far as possible from Macbook Air due to the crappy screen and 8-year-old design, especially consider I used to have 2 of them in the past.
I will not consider 13'' Macbook Pro due to the extra weight and limited performance improvement compared with Macbook 12''. Pre-2016 Macbook Pro 13'' have similar benchmark performance compared with latest i5 Macbook 12'', and much more weight, plus the price is still $700+ for a device in excellent condition. Post-2016 ones are rarely available for less than $1200.
I will not consider 15'' Macbook Pro since I already have a desktop Windows workstation and a Mobile Windows Workstation. I only need a Mac to run XCode, nothing heavy duty, and I don't want to pay the premium in terms of money, weight and portability.

I am aware of that these new Macbooks, no matter Pro or 12'', have non-replaceable SSD and RAM, and I'm aware of that they aren't meant to be serviceable. As I said, I just need a light duty use machine for device and program testing and simple coding, and I don't plan to keep them for more than 3 years. My typical laptop cycle is 2 years, then sell as used. As long as they work fine for the first 2 years, I'm okay with it.

Here is a candidate list:

1. Macbook 2017 m3 256GB, $1199-$125=$1074 (BestBuy educational discount)
2. Macbook 2017 i5 512GB, $1499-$125=$1374 (BestBuy educational discount)
3. Macbook 2017 i5 256GB, $1339 (m3 256GB with CPU upgrade, Apple Store)
4. Macbook 2016 m5 512GB, $1199-$125=$1074 (BestBuy educational discount)

I'm more towards number 1 and number 2, since number 3 is only $35 cheaper with 256GB less SSD, plus a customized device is harder to sell in the future.
Number 4 is my least preference since previous generation Core m5 is slower than latest Core m3, and I don't think the extra SSD can offset the benefit of a more energy efficient and powerful CPU.
I only need a few GB of storage beyond OS, so 256GB and 512GB makes no difference, until I sell them.

So my real question is, should I spend $300 more for the m3->i5 (both 3.5W TDP Core-Y models, both KabyLake) upgrade providing the extra 256GB of SSD does absolutely no good to me until I sell them, but I don't think I can sell the upgraded version for $300 more.


New candidate list:
1. BestBuy m3 8G 256 ($1074)
2. Apple Store m3 8G 256 with i7 16G upgrade, $1492 (assuming the accompanying Beats can be sold at $180)

Which one you think should be better?


I ended up getting one with all options maxed out. Heck, I just got a raise ;).
« Last Edit: August 19, 2017, 03:40:04 am by blueskull »
 

Offline Richard Crowley

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Re: MacBook recommendation needed
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2017, 05:39:05 am »
I'm not an Apple-fan, but I have seen that Apple sells refurb computers on their website.
https://www.apple.com/shop/browse/home/specialdeals
 

Offline Ampera

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Re: MacBook recommendation needed
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2017, 05:46:36 am »
IMO I would check out OS/X compatibility layers (I think GNUStep is one) to see if you can run your OS/X software on another OS. It is honestly scary how much Apple rips you off with their machines. You could get an i5 laptop NO SWEAT for WAY less than what Apple makes you pay (Like 500-700USD less), so I would SERIOUSLY consider an alternative. There is a reason why people warn you off Macintoshes.

If you ABSOLUTELY need to have a Mac, I'd take the cheapest one with the (I assume it's an i3?) For Minecraft, the CPU isn't going to make much of a different between an i3 and an i5, and most coding stuff doesn't really hog the CPU unless you need to compile massive software within a few moments.
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Offline amyk

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Re: MacBook recommendation needed
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2017, 06:28:32 am »
You can easily run OS X in a VM, and if you have good hardware it will be faster than running on Apple hardware.
 

Tac Eht Xilef

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Re: MacBook recommendation needed
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2017, 06:44:23 am »
Personally, I'd go for 2 first, then 3, then 1.

Given not-too-different pricing, I wouldn't even consider an m3 against an i5 for anything vaguely CPU- or I/O-bound (e.g.compiling) - an m3 is, what, 30% slower?

I can't see you've mentioned how much RAM you're looking at (and I can't guess it from your quoted prices vs local pricing). Xcode works fine with 8GB even on reasonable-sized projects, though you'll be feeling the edges of it & 16GB would be better.

Unless you've intending to load everything you can get your hands on onto it, then a 256GB SSD will probably be enough for your stated use. That's what's in my daily driver, and even with all my music & videos & document library / management database & Virtualbox (with Win7 & old OSX guests) & tonnes of misc crud that I've collected, it still don't have much problem keeping 30-50GB free.

Beyond that, as you say option 2 is only a few bucks more than option 1.

You can easily run OS X in a VM, and if you have good hardware it will be faster than running on Apple hardware.

Uh, let's just say "that's not my experience" - but YMMV...
 
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Offline kripton2035

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Re: MacBook recommendation needed
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2017, 06:53:55 am »
I would go to a macbook PRO (13) because xcode is all but "simple" software.
you need a fast processor (i7) , and you need a fast ssd drive to use it on a programmer basis.
or be prepared to wait at each compile.
btw, we don't know the complexity of what you have to program ?
also, don't think you need 512gb of storage space to make some apps in xcode ?
 
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Offline kripton2035

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Re: MacBook recommendation needed
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2017, 07:37:46 am »
you almost never boot a mac ... you put it to sleep by closing the screen... ;)
it can survive sleep without battery charge for one month or so.
windows and linux people are used to shutdown their computer more often than on a mac.
 
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Offline Halcyon

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Re: MacBook recommendation needed
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2017, 07:47:27 am »
You can easily run OS X in a VM, and if you have good hardware it will be faster than running on Apple hardware.

I believe that's not permitted by OSX license. I'm the 1% in population that will read EULA. I think Apple only allows you to run up to 2 OSX VM on an Apple branded computer.

Keep in mind, breaching EULAs and software licensing is not comparable to "software piracy" or anything unlawful. A EULA isn't worth jack squat unless it's been tested in a court and many are considered "unreasonable" in Australia simply due to their sheer length.


you almost never boot a mac ... you put it to sleep by closing the screen... ;)

Except when the damn thing crashes and becomes unstable or just locks up ;-)
« Last Edit: August 17, 2017, 07:49:04 am by Halcyon »
 
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Offline kripton2035

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Re: MacBook recommendation needed
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2017, 08:05:53 am »

Quote from: kripton2035 on Today at 09:37:46
you almost never boot a mac ... you put it to sleep by closing the screen... ;)

Except when the damn thing crashes and becomes unstable or just locks up ;-)

so that's what I said: almost never !
 

Offline JPortici

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Re: MacBook recommendation needed
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2017, 08:19:07 am »
I'm not an Apple-fan, but I have seen that Apple sells refurb computers on their website.
https://www.apple.com/shop/browse/home/specialdeals

I'd never get a refurbished. heard of few people that bought refurb and machine still had problems. plus, the supposed discound is ridiculous.

Have you considered an iMac? compare the prices with other GOOD all in ones and they have fantastic value. We just got a desktop dell workstation for our new graphic guy, it was about the same spec/performance as the iMac and it costed just about the same (with screen included of course) though we bought the desktop just for future upgrades
But i suppose you don't want another big-ass screen on the desk otherwise that's what i would have got.

re:macs, i think either one is good for what you want to do, i also agree on you not getting the older mac-mini (by the way, i got the 7i5 nuc in the end.. a beast.)
but i wouldn't spend too much money on it, as i found out osx to be not so productive to use for anything that wasn't related to music/images/videos (which i also do on the side)
« Last Edit: August 17, 2017, 08:21:40 am by JPortici »
 

Offline rollatorwieltje

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Re: MacBook recommendation needed
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2017, 10:10:10 am »
I would never get a Macbook 12", IMO it's utterly retarded that this machine only has exactly one USB-C port that's used for charging as well. Want to connect an external monitor? Well fuck you, buy a 70$ adapter. Completely defeats the purpose of a small laptop if you have to carry extra crap along. At least the Air has proper ports and an SD reader. The difference in performance is also negligible, even though the Air is marginally older.

Also be aware the keyboard on the 12" is "somewhat controversial". Most people just call it terrible, the keys basically have no travel. Oh well, at least it doesn't come with that abomination of a touch bar instead of function keys.
 

Offline kripton2035

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Re: MacBook recommendation needed
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2017, 10:21:05 am »
I would never get a Macbook 12", IMO it's utterly retarded that this machine only has exactly one USB-C port that's used for charging as well. Want to connect an external monitor? Well fuck you, buy a 70$ adapter. Completely defeats the purpose of a small laptop if you have to carry extra crap along. At least the Air has proper ports and an SD reader. The difference in performance is also negligible, even though the Air is marginally older.

Also be aware the keyboard on the 12" is "somewhat controversial". Most people just call it terrible, the keys basically have no travel. Oh well, at least it doesn't come with that abomination of a touch bar instead of function keys.
again, macbook pro 13 is a more versatile computer. it has also been renewed in june like the 12".
 

Offline nfmax

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Re: MacBook recommendation needed
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2017, 11:16:40 am »
I'm not an Apple-fan, but I have seen that Apple sells refurb computers on their website.
https://www.apple.com/shop/browse/home/specialdeals
I'd never get a refurbished. heard of few people that bought refurb and machine still had problems. plus, the supposed discound is ridiculous.

Just as a counter-example, I have bought several refurb Apple products over the years, including a PowerPC Mini (still going strong as a music server!) and two MacBookPro 13" - 2009 & 2012 models, both still going strong with no battery problems.

YMMV, though
 
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Offline bd139

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Re: MacBook recommendation needed
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2017, 11:29:58 am »
Mine is a 15" 2013 retina MBP i7 refurb. Works nicely and always has done. 

I wouldn't go near anything that isn't MBP. The lower lines are slightly sluggish in comparison.

You MUST max the RAM out whatever you buy. I've got 16Gb and it turns out I needed it to run vagrant virtual machine images with my dev tools in.
 

Offline JPortici

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Re: MacBook recommendation needed
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2017, 12:56:24 pm »
I would never get a Macbook 12", IMO it's utterly retarded that this machine only has exactly one USB-C port that's used for charging as well. Want to connect an external monitor? Well fuck you, buy a 70$ adapter. Completely defeats the purpose of a small laptop if you have to carry extra crap along. At least the Air has proper ports and an SD reader. The difference in performance is also negligible, even though the Air is marginally older.

Also be aware the keyboard on the 12" is "somewhat controversial". Most people just call it terrible, the keys basically have no travel. Oh well, at least it doesn't come with that abomination of a touch bar instead of function keys.

my work PC is a dell laptop. When i'm inside the office it's permanently connected to a USB 3 docking station which in turn is connected to monitor, ethernet, various usb stuff.
When i'm other rooms or simply outside the office, usually i just need the laptop and maybe one usb port
Back in the office, connect to that single USB port and i'm good. I'd do that even if i didn't have to so i wouldn't have to connect / disconnect multiple things every time.
I would do the same with the 12" macbook if i had to, but i see your point. Completely agree on the keyboard, i HATE mac keyboards. i liked the old one in my 2010 model much better.

you should be excited of what you can do with a single USB 3 port!
« Last Edit: August 17, 2017, 12:58:27 pm by JPortici »
 

Offline bd139

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Re: MacBook recommendation needed
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2017, 01:19:49 pm »
They keyboard is shit on the MBP as well. However you get used to it eventually.

Really, my Lenovo T440 keyboard is much better.
 

Offline Jellysfish

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Re: MacBook recommendation needed
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2017, 06:16:36 pm »
if you commit to not having any ports, which it looks like you are, a single usb c isn't much worse than two. You'll just have to get a multi-port dongle (>$45 from amazon)
 

Offline kripton2035

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Re: MacBook recommendation needed
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2017, 06:08:43 am »
 

Offline rollatorwieltje

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Re: MacBook recommendation needed
« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2017, 06:22:23 am »
https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare.php?cmp[]=2880&cmp[]=2503&cmp[]=2863

This benchmark says the 12" i7 is actually slower than the top spec Macbook Air from 2015. It doesn't surprise me, that TDP decrease has to come from somewhere.

But who cares about such minute differences. Does it matter if something compiles in 9 instead of 10 minutes? In both cases you're watching paint dry. That i7 7500u is approaching the ballpark of a 7 year old desktop. Raw performance is just not a thing in these ultraportable laptops. My Lenovo T530 work laptop has the same CPUMark score as the Air, it's from 2012... Of course that doesn't run OSX, I'm just saying you shouldn't stare yourself blind on performance, it won't be that impressive whatever you choose.
 

Offline ruairi

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Re: MacBook recommendation needed
« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2017, 07:32:31 am »
16 year Apple user here.  Go for the extra RAM, you will be glad you did.  I agree on the SSD, 256 should be enough.

I've a Microsoft Office subscription for the past 3 years that I just cancelled.  We had it for a very specific charity project my wife was working on where only Office would work.  For my daily work I use Open Office on Mac and it is better in every way than the Microsoft offering.  Particularly in terms of stability.

 
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Offline ruairi

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Re: MacBook recommendation needed
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2017, 09:13:31 am »
I've never used Visio, in fact I had to google it just now.  Looks very useful for some projects I have coming up, will check out the LO version.

BTW on Mac I found OO.o to be better than LO.
 
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Offline kripton2035

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Re: MacBook recommendation needed
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2017, 11:46:02 am »
LibreOffice on mac opens many many more files formats than OO.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: MacBook recommendation needed
« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2017, 12:25:52 pm »
LibreOffice on OSX is dire. Even worse than windows.
 

Offline PartialDischarge

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Re: MacBook recommendation needed
« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2017, 01:40:16 pm »
Why use OpenOffice, LibreOffice or even MO on a Mac, when the supplied software (Numbers, Pages, Keypoint, iBooks Author) is more than good??  :palm:
 
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Offline PartialDischarge

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Re: MacBook recommendation needed
« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2017, 01:43:44 pm »
For Visio, I use the LO counterpart since MS Visio is too expensive. I can't justify the cost for 2 Visio copies on 2 computers. I only have one Visio copy on my main workstation, and I think I'm okay with LO in a pinch.

A nice Visio substitute is Shapes 4, 11€
 


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