Main constituents in rosin flux may hold promise treating common health issues.

[cdev]

As we all know "flux" which originated in pine rosin is incredibly useful, pretty much essential in soldering. This is because it acts as an antioxidant neutralizing coating of oxidized metal which prevents metals from binding. Well, Ive been kind of curious about the various properties of rosin for a while.

I recently found this paper.

"In this paper, we describe several bioactive terpenoids
(Figure 2) contained in herbal or dietary plants, which
have the potential to ameliorate metabolic disorders via
activation of ligand-dependent transcription factors, namely,
peroxisome proliferator-activated receptors (PPARs)."

This is an important use because of the epidemic of obesity which may have environmental causes.
Its possible that the main constituent in flux may be valuable in fighting the metabolic syndrome which is characterized by systemic inflammation.

"Recently, it has been indicated that obesity is associated
with a low-grade chronic inflammation state [34]. The
inflammatory condition in obesity is increasingly being
recognized as an important contributor to the development
of metabolic syndrome and its associated complications.
Adipocytes can secret cytokines involved in inflammation,
such as adiponectin, monocyte chemoattractant protein-1
(MCP-1), and tumor necrosis factor-α (TNF-α) [35]. MCP-
1, a member of the CC chemokine superfamily, plays a piv-
otal role in monocyte/macrophage trafficking and activation
[36]. Macrophages also produce various proinflammatory
factors including MCP-1 and TNF-α. Macrophage-derived
TNF-α establishes a vicious cycle that augments inflamma-
tory changes and insulin resistance in obese adipose tissues
[37]. Therefore, to prevent obesity-related inflammation, it
is important to decrease the production of obese-adipose-
tissue-derived proinflammatory factors such as MCP-1 and
TNF-α.
Several herbal and dietary plants improve medical con-
ditions including diabetes mellitus, hyperlipidemia, and car-
diovascular disease associated with an abnormality of lipid
metabolism [38, 39]. To screen for novel natural ligands for
PPARs, we have evaluated PPAR ligand activities for various
terpenoids in an advanced highly sensitive system with
the coexpression of a coactivator for nuclear receptors, the
cAMP-response element-binding protein (CREB)-binding
protein (CBP), developed by modifying the luciferase
reporter assay system [40]. Hereinafter, we describe several
terpenoids, identified as novel PPAR ligands, in our PPAR
ligand screening."

........

Here they describe the compounds we are familiar with...

".3. Abietic Acid Derivatives. The amount of variety of
hydrocarbons and their derivatives used in industrial and
commercial activities has been increasing over the years.
Abietic acid is a tricyclic-diterpene carboxylic acid (Figure 2),
and is the main component of the rosin fraction of oleoresin
synthesized by conifer species, such as grand fir (Abies gran-
dis) and lodgepole pine (Pinus contorta) [58]. Abietic acid is
commonly used as a fluxing agent in solder, as a paper sizing
agent to make paper more water resistant, and in printing
inks, adhesives, and plasticizers [59]. Moreover, it has been
reported that abietic acid is a bioactive compound and it has
an anti-inflammatory effect. In lipopolysaccharide (LPS)-
stimulated macrophages, abietic acid suppresses production
of prostaglandin E2 (PGE2) in vitro and in vivo [60].
To investigate whether the activation of PPARs is related
to the anti-inflammatory effects of abietic acid and its
derivatives, we evaluated the effects of abietic acid and its
derivatives on PPAR activity (Figure 2). Abietic acid and
dehydroabietic acid, one of major components of colophony
(also known as Rosin and pine resin), potently activated
both PPARα and PPARγ but not PPARδ [61, 62]. Similarly
to thiazolidinedione, a synthetic PPARγ ligand, abietic acid
suppressed mRNA expressions of TNF-α and cyclooxygenase
2 (COX2), which are induced in inflammatory reactions,
in LPS-stimulated macrophages [61]. Dehydroabietic acid
stimulated PPARα and PPARγ more potently than abietic
acid [62]. Dehydroabietic acid significantly suppressed the
production of proinflammatory mediators such as MCP-
1, TNF-α, and NO in LPS-stimulated macrophages and in
the coculture of macrophages and adipocytes [62]. In obese
diabetic KK-Ay mice, dietary dehydroabietic acid suppressed
obesity-associated elevation of circular MCP-1 and TNF-α
levels and their mRNA expressions in white adipose tissues.
Moreover, dehydroabietic acid improved carbohydrate and
lipid metabolism [63]. These findings indicate that the
anti-inflammatory effects of abietic acid and dehydroabietic
acid are at least partly due to the activation of PPARs.
Additionally, it is suggested that these compounds can be
used not only for anti-inflammation but also for regulating
carbohydrate and lipid metabolism and atherosclerosis."

-------------------------

So, anyway, our understanding of the mechanisms underlying adiposity are changing, and inflammation is at the core of our new knowledge. We may be able to address obesity somewhat by restoring people to a less inflammatory state with compounds that modulate the activity of the PPARs.


http://downloads.hindawi.com/journals/ppar/2010/483958.pdf

[tggzzz]

Can I suggest you take out a subscription to the Daily Mail and Daily Express newspapers. I'm sure you'll find their "medical advance of the day" articles to your liking.

Alternatively, consider a (paid?) sideline in becoming one of their reporters for such articles. Hint: to increase the chance of an article's acceptance, include "cancer causing" or "cancer curing" in the first sentence.

[Ian.M]

From the bench tech's point of view, Rosin is more of health risk than benefit due to the well known risks of inducing asthma by inhalation of its fumes and sensitisation leading to dermatitis by skin contact.   One might consider drinking a rosé Retsina for your daily glass of wine, but if you are already sensitised to Rosin, that could be unwise . . .
 

[Buriedcode]

cdev, as I mentioned in another post - "antioxidants" are not a panacea, and lack of them isn't the cause of the so-called obesity epidemic.  The idea that metabolic syndrome is characterized by system-wide inflammation isn't concrete, and says nothing about causation either way, the paper clearly makes this assumption first off, hints that one causes the other.

Please read the first three paragraphs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antioxidant

I realize you're just posting sections from the provided link, and not yourself making such claims - I'll admit I do find it quite interesting, although I don't understand it very well as biology isn't my strong suit.  It can be easy to get lost in details and specifics and papers like this show just how effing complicated mammalian biology is.

But the myriad health problems we face these days don't have a single simple cause.  Nor do they have a single simple solution.  Every week there is another fashionable theory that can claim to be the cause of all our ails (obesity, metabolic syndrome, the alleged "autism epidemic", the made-up idea that cancer incidence is increasing etc..) as well as solutions: gut flora! Vitamin E, VItamin D, mega-doses of vitamin C, various obscure minerals, fermented foods, ancient dishes, mindfulness etc..etc..  And these spawn legitimate studies, because the public are interested, and therefore, funding becomes available.  These studies are not proof of mechanisms or efficacy - they are there to investigate such claims. 

Perhaps I'm too cynical about such matters, but thats because time and again, every relatively simple theory with benign solutions to the worlds ails turns out to be fruitless.

[coppercone2]

you gotta stop stressing people out if you want to be be skinny. tax problems? bitchy family? bad boss?  ahhh

big ass bacon breakfast is the legal equivalent of having a beer in the morning.

I always noticed in school if I had to cram for some kind of math related crap that was frustrating the solution would be to get a monster sized ice tea. I could fall asleep if I was drinking coffee etc, but even a no caffeine ice tea would keep you calm despite the overwhelming odds. Downside was that you consumed like 3000 calories in 1 night in liquid form. Like if you need to learn half a semester of multi variable calculus in three days. Considering some people would consider breaking their arm to get out of an exam, it seems like a reasonable solution.

[chris_leyson]

And so does cannabis, lots of terpenes there. I'm not a biochemist so I can't add anything useful to the topic.
However here is an interesting bit of history on soft soldering, enjoy. Main constituents in rosin flux may hold promise especially when soldering brass.

[cdev]

I didn't realize that Retsina was made with pine resin.

You're right about colophony being a health risk due to sensitization. The thing that I found interesting was the fact that the same property that made rosin useful, its quenching of free radicals on the surface of metals, was also of medical interest.  And there are quite a bit of papers about related compounds. The thing that originally sparked my interest was actually related to redwood, not pine trees. There is a species of tree, metasequoia, its the direct ancestor of the coast redwood (and a close relative of the giant sequoia) a very rare deciduous conifer, which used to grow throughout the world in the distant past but which until around 70 years ago only survived in a remote area of central China. And a tea made from its bark was used medically in the area it grew. It was analyzed and it contains some of the same constituents. The metasequoia is a really beautiful tree that grows very tall, around half as tall as the coast redwood (the tallest tree in the world) And its much more flexible as to where it can grow, compared to it. I really like redwoods. I've (briefly) lived in redwood forests, twice.

From the bench tech's point of view, Rosin is more of health risk than benefit due to the well known risks of inducing asthma by inhalation of its fumes and sensitisation leading to dermatitis by skin contact.   One might consider drinking a rosé Retsina for your daily glass of wine, but if you are already sensitised to Rosin, that could be unwise . . .

I've only tasted Retsina and never liked it that much. I don't drink much and when I do drink its beer or wine, usually.

Not a lot. I've never been much of a drinker.

[cdev]

Stress produces so called 'stress hormones" - corticosteroids which increase your body's storage of fat around your middle and if present for more than just a few days start to become toxic to delicate structures in the brain. More and more so.

Thats the very real cause of PTSD, and it can be crippling to people.

Curcuminoids which are found in turmeric may hold promise in protecting the brain from that kind of damage from stress and also impact long term potentiation of fear memories. They are also being researched as a possible preventative strategy to prevent or possibly even treat Alzheimers.

Green tea contains catechins like epigallocatechin-3-gallate which are quite possibly useful in the student context, because they may improve learning and memory consolidation. Many people seem to think so, for themselves, including me. I drink green tea. 

you gotta stop stressing people out if you want to be be skinny. tax problems? bitchy family? bad boss?  ahhh

big ass bacon breakfast is the legal equivalent of having a beer in the morning.

I always noticed in school if I had to cram for some kind of math related crap that was frustrating the solution would be to get a monster sized ice tea. I could fall asleep if I was drinking coffee etc, but even a no caffeine ice tea would keep you calm despite the overwhelming odds. Downside was that you consumed like 3000 calories in 1 night in liquid form. Like if you need to learn half a semester of multi variable calculus in three days. Considering some people would consider breaking their arm to get out of an exam, it seems like a reasonable solution.

Immersion in a subject also helps a lot! If you want to learn some new skill quickly, thats the best way to get over the learning curve at the beginning.

[cdev]

I wonder who discovered soldering and how?

It must have been a very very long time ago and likely is lost in prehistory. Metalworkers used to guard their secrets.

However here is an interesting bit of history on soft soldering, enjoy. Main constituents in rosin flux may hold promise especially when soldering brass.

How incredibly cool! Thank you for that.

[cdev]

I have some (specific) links I wanted to give you from the other day. I saved them in a text file and now I cant remember its name. But anyway the point you bring up is a valid one and it applies in a great many areas. The picture is complicated. You can find some full text articles giving a cross section of stuff with a general search term like..

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/?term=ros+signalling

For example, people pursuing physical weight training may sometimes find antioxidants detrimental to their training. Because the ROS may be what prompts their muscles to get bigger to handle the strain.

cdev, as I mentioned in another post - "antioxidants" are not a panacea, and lack of them isn't the cause of the so-called obesity epidemic.  The idea that metabolic syndrome is characterized by system-wide inflammation isn't concrete, and says nothing about causation either way, the paper clearly makes this assumption first off, hints that one causes the other.

Please read the first three paragraphs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antioxidant

I realize you're just posting sections from the provided link, and not yourself making such claims - I'll admit I do find it quite interesting, although I don't understand it very well as biology isn't my strong suit.  It can be easy to get lost in details and specifics and papers like this show just how effing complicated mammalian biology is.

But the myriad health problems we face these days don't have a single simple cause.  Nor do they have a single simple solution.  Every week there is another fashionable theory that can claim to be the cause of all our ails (obesity, metabolic syndrome, the alleged "autism epidemic", the made-up idea that cancer incidence is increasing etc..) as well as solutions: gut flora! Vitamin E, VItamin D, mega-doses of vitamin C, various obscure minerals, fermented foods, ancient dishes, mindfulness etc..etc..  And these spawn legitimate studies, because the public are interested, and therefore, funding becomes available.  These studies are not proof of mechanisms or efficacy - they are there to investigate such claims. 

Perhaps I'm too cynical about such matters, but thats because time and again, every relatively simple theory with benign solutions to the worlds ails turns out to be fruitless.

This is a good article that explains why n-acetylcysteine (NAC) is a good thing for people to take as they get older. We need it, because its increasingly broken as we age.

NAC helps protect hearing as we age. A good natural source of cysteine (besides NAC which is a supplement) is dairy products. The highest natural source I know of is whey protein.

Glycine will also improve glutathione status.  - Betaine - trimethylglycine - is a form of / source of glycine and also a methyl donor - a close relative of choline - It reduces homocysteine quite a bit.  Its very good for your GI health also.

The AJCN is an authoritative source on nutrition. The best. You can trust what they tell you.

Deficient synthesis of glutathione underlies oxidative stress in aging and can be corrected by dietary cysteine and glycine supplementation

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/94/3/847.full.pdf+html


-------

Polyphenols represent a body of substances that we evolved with in our foods which now are often absent or much attenuated. That may be part of why we're having problems with our planet's health.

 Apart from in the winter, we used to get far more in our diets naturally than we do today.

You can preferentially get them from a variety of natural sources. We used to eat fewer processed foods and that is the main problem, they don't last in processed foods. Polyphenols could potentially improve human health greatly. Far more than today. Factory farming technologies likely reduce the content of many of these useful substances in foods.

This is about polyphenols and it has a long list of them. You can take their names and use them as search terms for Pubmed. Doing that you get a much more representative statistical picture of the elements of the picture which may be relevant as well as see how much is positive and how much might be negative. Ideally we would all not need to supplement in our diets, that would be possible if we all ate a much more varied diet higher in fresh foods without a lot of pesticides, especially.

https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/79/5/727/4690182

[cdev]

The paper I told you about earlier, "Chemically Diverse Toxicants Converge on Fyn and c-Cbl to Disrupt Precursor Cell Function" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1790953/

is where I would start my reading if I was curious about why people originally thought vaccines and autism were connected.

Most vaccines used to be preserved, at least here in the US, with a substance, thimerosal, which was made with mercury.

Glutathione depletion was revealed in that paper to impact cell differentiation due to its impact on the expression of two genes, Fyn and c-Cbl. A great many toxicants deplete glutathione in cells, because the cells use it up in relation to the amount of ROS they must quench.

Increased cysteine blocked this effect despite the diverse nature of the toxicants involved. Showing that the pathway their ROS impacted which caused the problem was amendable to the availability of, glutathione.

Depletion of glutathione at that early stage (when a child is still in the womb) could be a cause of much illness due to this, including quite possibly autism.

I was happy to hear recently, that there is now a prenatal supplement used in the UK that combines n-acetylcysteine with folic acid. (So, that is basically what I was suggesting. A simple, very inexpensive intervention.)

That would be the time NAC supplementation would be likely to be the most helpful. Before a baby's birth.

[tggzzz]

... and so we enter anti-vaxxer territory.

Disappointed, but not surprised.

[analogo]

As we all know "flux" which originated in pine rosin is incredibly useful, pretty much essential in soldering. This is because it acts as an antioxidant neutralizing coating of oxidized metal which prevents metals from binding. Well, Ive been kind of curious about the various properties of rosin for a while.

I recently found this paper.

"In this paper, we describe several bioactive terpenoids
(Figure 2) contained in herbal or dietary plants, which

[...]

http://downloads.hindawi.com/journals/ppar/2010/483958.pdf

The publisher of this paper Hindawi is a well know predatory publisher: you just pay a fee and your article will be published in a "scientific" "peer reviewed" journal. [1] Ignore everything that comes out of their journals.

[1] https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/bad-faith-when-conspiracy-theorists-play-academics-and-the-media-for-fools/

[tggzzz]

The publisher of this paper Hindawi is a well know predatory publisher: you just pay a fee and your article will be published in a "scientific" "peer reviewed" journal. [1] Ignore everything that comes out of their journals.

[1] https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/bad-faith-when-conspiracy-theorists-play-academics-and-the-media-for-fools/

"Immersing yourself" in such a cesspool means that there is a high probabilty you end up speaking/writing <expeletive deleted>. A key question is how to develop a "sense of smell" that enables you to avoid such immersions.

[coppercone2]

is there a predatory publication watch dog?

I always suspected this kind of thing happened because of corporate interests but it was just a hunch in the back of my head. I am suprised they have known badguys for this.

[tggzzz]

is there a predatory publication watch dog?

I always suspected this kind of thing happened because of corporate interests but it was just a hunch in the back of my head. I am suprised they have known badguys for this.

Academic interests too, unfortunately. You can only get tenure if you have a ridiculously long list of publications, often exemplifying the "least publishable unit" concept. Never mind the quality, simply weigh the publications.

[cdev]

I had never seen any representations to that effect, however I am totally aware of the fact that that is a major problem with publications.

If any of you find out any more on this please let me know here in this thread!

That said, I have no reason to believe that anything said in the paper isn't factual because "it's consistent with other things I've read". Which in this case means exactly what it sounds like. No more no less.

As we all know "flux" which originated in pine rosin is incredibly useful, pretty much essential in soldering. This is because it acts as an antioxidant neutralizing coating of oxidized metal which prevents metals from binding. Well, Ive been kind of curious about the various properties of rosin for a while.

I recently found this paper.

"In this paper, we describe several bioactive terpenoids
(Figure 2) contained in herbal or dietary plants, which

[...]

http://downloads.hindawi.com/journals/ppar/2010/483958.pdf

The publisher of this paper Hindawi is a well know predatory publisher: you just pay a fee and your article will be published in a "scientific" "peer reviewed" journal. [1] Ignore everything that comes out of their journals.

[1] https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/bad-faith-when-conspiracy-theorists-play-academics-and-the-media-for-fools/

[tggzzz]

That said, I have no reason to believe that anything said in the paper isn't factual because "it's consistent with other things I've read". Which in this case means exactly what it sounds like. No more no less.

Sorry, that's insufficient justification.

Ever heard of "echo chamber" or "mutual admiration society"?

Those can lead to very nasty consequences for individuals and societies, as seen in too many current and historic contexts.

[cdev]

Its also undeniable that we desperately need tools to fix the epidemic of PPAR modulated illnesses.

Chemicals that see widespread use are so called EDCs - many are also "obesogens" that modulate the body's energy set points. They are in everything from wire insulation and nonstick cookware to furniture, printed labels, dental restorations, food packaging, plastics, pajamas, insulation, flooring and so on.

They dysregulate these systems in a dose dependent manner. Exposures are causing intergenerational health problems. (They still don't fully understand why or how this happens.)

[Buriedcode]

The paper I told you about earlier, "Chemically Diverse Toxicants Converge on Fyn and c-Cbl to Disrupt Precursor Cell Function" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1790953/

Proves my point that just because a paper appears to have validity, it can be used and abused to prove any half-baked theory.

Most vaccines used to be preserved, at least here in the US, with a substance, thimerosal, which was made with mercury.

AFAIK it was only used in a handful of vaccines, and since its removal from all childhood vaccines in 1999, rates of autism haven't changed at all.  The only people who believed a link between vaccines and autism were fraudsters (namely Andrew Wakefield) who did so to get attention and to sell books.  According to the wiki page for thiomersal:

A 2011 journal article described the vaccine-autism connection as "perhaps, the most damaging medical hoax of the last 100 years".

Depletion of glutathione at that early stage (when a child is still in the womb) could be a cause of much illness due to this, including quite possibly autism.

I think thats three threads now where you've mentioned "glutathione" several times.  We get it.  You love it. It's the linchpin of everything..  A quick google of that compound with "autism" yielded many dodgy results from either desperate parents, or snake-oil peddlers.  You must remember that there isn't much regulation with anything labelled as "supplement".  So I legally could sell almost anything, say, a food additive, as a "cure" for autism, and not be prosecuted, so long as I provide a disclaimer on the label. Just because it is sold as something to "help" with Autism, doesn't mean to say it has anything to do with it.  This goes for so many supplements - its 90% marketing, and in no way proof of its efficacy in treating any disease.

Add to the fact there isn't much consensus on what Autism "is" or what causes it, I hardly think your glutathione theory is both the cause and solution to a complex developmental problem.  I understand you're interested, and wish to share your enthusiasm in this research, but the whole anti-vaxx thing started in a similar way - people spread FUD (fear uncertainty, doubt) about current treatments, and has led to many unnecessary deaths.  I probably shouldn't have posted, but eventually people are going to get quite pissed off.  So for your sake (and mine!), tone it down.

[cdev]

Mercury exposures have been rising due to continued use of coal that contains it. That and fish consumption are likely the largest sources of exposure.

Please stop trying to put words in my mouth that I didn't say.

Did you actually read the paper? You can find a lot of interesting work being done on the Fyn/c-Cbl connection too. PubMed is fairly straightforward. Please stop trying to see me as your 'opponent' and yourself in an 'argument' you feel you need to 'win'. 

We all need to be healthy to have decent lives, you know.

[Buriedcode]

Please stop trying to see me as your 'opponent' and yourself in an 'argument' you feel you need to 'win'. 

I'm not trying to "win" anything.  You mentioned thimerosal in your post, along with Autism.

Most vaccines used to be preserved, at least here in the US, with a substance, thimerosal, which was made with mercury.

Whilst it appears you brought it up to highlight possibly why people made the link between that and autism - what does that have to do with rosin flux containing antioxidants?  What the topic have to do with Autism?  Whilst you didn't explicitly say it, you're implying a link between all these things where there no evidence of such.

We all need to be healthy to have decent lives, you know.

Indeed, and it is very difficult in today's climate of misinformation to tease out verified and sound medical/health/lifestyle advice from marketing bullshit and quackery.  The reason I'm starting to get somewhat pissy is, across several threads you've mentioned vague theories that are associated with quackery.  I am not suggesting you are promoting these idea's, just that you should be aware that "antioxidants", "glutathione", "autism", "mercury" are all terms linked to dangerous quackery for so-called "autism cures".   No-one is questioning the dangers of mercury, but it is a question of bioavailability and dose.  Perhaps I shouldn't have replied to this post, but I wanted to clarify what exactly you're getting at and point out that one could misconstrue your posts as promoting pseudoscience.

You can buy many kinds of supplements, and there is little regulation for them - just because you can buy something in a health store doesn't mean to say it is good for you, or that there is any evidence of efficacy.  History is littered with stories of someone investigating a link between some ingredient or compound and a disease or "cure" and that being sold/promoted to cure almost everything.  I used to think "well, whats the harm in trying it for yourself?" but its exactly that attitude which has led to deaths, measles outbreaks, and the erosion of trust from scientific experts.

The topic? interesting.  But lets not go way off and start pulling in autism, the so-called obesity epidemic, "toxins" and what-ever-else one wants to believe are caused by "bad chemicals".

[cdev]

Here is the problem, many of these things, even when they might easily appear to be unrelated in many ways, in fact add up in terms of how they all deplete a specific resource, intracellular glutathione, in the body.  We're all grownups here, and technically literate. I'm trying to treat others here like adults and explain this like an adult. Its extremely easy to learn much more about this in the literature, why don't you, rather than assuming that I don't know what I'm talking about.

This issue is important because at certain times of peoples lives they are very much more vulnerable to the possible consequences of not having enough glutathione at a crucial moment to 'quench' 'free radicals' (or whatever of around a half dozen names people use for the same thing) and people end up with health problems randomly.

This happens and the likely reason many misguided 'authorities' won't admit to it is likely that they already know its a big problem with no solution besides regulating a great many toxicants as well as other things that deplete glutathione, differently.

Instead what are they trying to do? Push as many polluting changes through as fast as they can, accompanied by trade agreements that lock in what are likely to be bad decisions, and strip people of means of getting affordable health care in some countries, while using back room you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours type dirty deals to prevent other people from ever getting it.

Along with affordable high quality public education. If entire generations can't get a decent education, they wont be able to speak - no matter how knowledgeable they are. Lacking credentials. Nor will they ever have any kind of stable income. They may even be pushed to the margins of society - and the very best we could hope for them is to somehow God would smile on them and they would be left alone.

Is it relevant there is a Gold rush or land rush going on? Yes it is, it shows major irresponsibility in high places.

The things they conceal, and how they go about doing that, again and again show they are not acting in good faith.

Also, were you aware that something called a 'ratchet clause' typically applies to anything thats the subject of a trade agreement?

That changes everything because it means that no matter how large a policy mistake we make, it cant be reversed except at tremendous cost.

This is being done so more money, and more jobs can be invested in developing nations, they say, but the fact is, these deals are a way of nullifying democracy.

None of these things are unrelated.

[cdev]

Because the changes in cell differentiation happen so early in life the body only gets one shot at them, so they are almost certain to be irreversible. A person with some serious birth defect might be able to get treatment of some kind for it but in the case of anything involving the brain, they are not likely to be able to reverse it in any way.

That said, the human brain is a very adaptable organ - perhaps among the most - so, we never know. technology is a pretty marvelous thing, sometimes. But I hear you about how some people take advantage of desperate parents. Do I honestly seem to you to be anything like those people? Maybe you might think I am - but thats because you dont know me very well, I'm not. And if I had an idea that I thought might help, I would lay the entire thing out and try to explain it fully, and I wouldn't be trying to sell anything. Likely I would do what Ive done many times - try to share it with people who work on the issue, doctors or scientists. Or in some cases, governmental agencies tasked with that particular issue's resolution.

------

Also, you should know, I don't stay mad at people, generally, I understand people often make mistakes, I do. Give me a bit of the benefit of the doubt, ask me why Ifeel something is a fact, first.

Feel free to ask me specific questions about why I said anything, thats the way to resolve some question.

Actually the things you just brought up - why not-

Let me try to get you started on why they matter.

autism, Its so heartbreaking for parents and so insanely expensive for society. If we could make a big dent in autism that would save an incredibly large amount of heartbreak and money.

IF a simple cheap intervention, giving all pregnant women a huge bag of pprenatal vitamins which included NAC, and some other important things like DHA (an ingredient in fish oil that is used by the brain, folic acid - to prevent neural tube defects, etc.) for free, might do exactly that- it would be worth trying. Why not?

>"the so-called obesity epidemic,  "toxins" and what-ever-else one wants to believe are caused by "bad chemicals".

Guess what? Lots of scientists, with caveats, have postulated that - from what we know already, something like that is definitely a large causative element of the epidemic in certain kinds of health issues, including obesity (also rises in a number of cancers, including one that I am pretty sure was responsible for a recent death here) except those chemicals are better classified as "persistent organic pollutants" and many of them originated in the word of plastics. 

Also, in order to get them out of the bloodstream, the body may store them in fat. We don't really understand this mechanism fully yet but there is definitely a connection between toxic environmental chemicals and "adipocytes" (fat cells) or "adiposity" (obesity) and it is epigenetic (somehow it is passed on to a mothers offspring in some cases)

The key chemicals of interest that do this, are called endocrine disrupting chemicals, or 'EDCs" and some of them are now called "obesogens" or "Obesogenic". This is a big discovery and its fairly new.

They change the body's energy set points. Thats why the PPARs are important, thats the system this happens in. So people are looking - a lot of people, for ways to address this dietarily. The problem we may be running into is the same problem we're seeing with other "big" problems, the bullshit 'breakthrough' problem. We're starting to recognize the electronics related ones here, which is great.

I realize that what youre angry at is a similar kind of thing in health care. Where is the answer? We want magic bullets, are there any? There may not be, we need to assume there wont be and solve the f****g problem. Even if its expensive. BUT sometimes there are cheap interventions that HELP us 'make it through the night' so to speak, which are obvious, too.

---  Also, I'm no strager to people thinking I'm coming up with some wild theory about some health thing, and them thinking I'm wrong or crazy, but so far Ive always been able to show them that what I was observing was for a good reason and a bit of time has proven me right.

Had I had the credentials to do so, I might have been able to get credit for those ideas. Formally. But I didnt. Luckily, I also despite that have a lot of experience with how science works and I realize that real science isnt about degrees, its about ideas. And anybody can have ideas or should be able to have ideas, express them well, document what is going on in a rigorous fashion, and have it added to the ever changing snapshot of human knowledge. Until some new development adds to it and we move forward some more.

[rrinker]

 I could say I am proof that this is bullshit. I've been soldering for YEARS using rosin flux and no mask or fume extractor, and I'm as fat as can be. 

[Zero999]

This is an important use because of the epidemic of obesity which may have environmental causes.

I think we all knew that.

Its possible that the main constituent in flux may be valuable in fighting the metabolic syndrome which is characterized by systemic inflammation.

It made no difference to me. I was a bit overweight, exercised more and got down to a healthy weight.

Rosin flux fumes are have also been linked with asthma, there are fume extractors where I work. Not that we use them much for soldering because they're noisy and the pipe gets in the way. They're normally used when we need to burn off some potting compound, which really does give off nasty fumes.

[thm_w]

From the bench tech's point of view, Rosin is more of health risk than benefit due to the well known risks of inducing asthma by inhalation of its fumes and sensitisation leading to dermatitis by skin contact.   One might consider drinking a rosé Retsina for your daily glass of wine, but if you are already sensitised to Rosin, that could be unwise . . .

Yeah, and likely the decomposition compounds produced by high soldering temperature are not quite as positive.


OP if you are interested in other terpenoids, check out limonene as well: https://examine.com/supplements/limonene/
Anyway, getting much open minded health discussion here is a bit of an intellectual dead end. Might be better off searching elsewhere.

https://www.cabdirect.org/cabdirect/abstract/20133214035
https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/abietic_acid#section=Chemical-Co-Occurrences-in-Literature

[helius]

Retsina is, of course, the only thing Arthur Dent thought to save when he returned to Earth prior to its Vogon destruction.

Limonene and methyl salicylate are plant products widely used as industrial solvents (as is ɑ-pinene, also known as turpentine).
If you are interested in gums and resins as dietary products, benzoin and chioς mastic are noteworthy.