Man fined for criticizing govt using science, without a license

[Elf]

Mr. Järlström simply didn't do very good research.  If he had, he would have discovered that he isn't the first to complain and present evidence about those cameras. Or even the 10th. And possibly not the 100th.  People have been complaining, whinging, presenting evidence, timing, publishing, ranting for DECADES about those things.  And the government (city and state) steadfastly ignore all petitions from their customers (us citizens).  And just for spite they throw the book at anyone they can.  Just to get rid of them.

I have observed this as well, previously having worked in Beaverton. Such an oddball city -- it seems to be owned by Nike in practice, and other than the mega-corporation residents the police department seems to be its main source of revenue. Those red light cameras (either the fixed ones, or that van they always move around) seem make the news almost every year. In a perverse way, I think it does work though. Everyone seems to be so afraid of being robbed by the police that they keep their driving in check.

I am just glad I don't have to go there anymore, besides the bad traffic on US-26 and Barnes/Burnside, and the taxation without representation for WA residents.

[CatalinaWOW]

Why on earth would they not let you use a slide rule? Not a whole lot of people left who even know how to use one in the first place.

The rule against slide rules doesn't call them that.  My memory of the wording is that it disallowed any kind of sliding scale calculation device. 

Reading between the lines people were probably bringing in a bunch of special purpose slide rules which simplified the test questions too much.  Rather than figure out a good wording to allow a slide rule that does math only and then forcing proctors to verify compliance, they just eliminating the whole lot, figuring that it wouldn't hurt much of anyone.  I think the same reasons are why they only allow six model numbers of calculators, two each from HP, TI and Casio.  Reduces the workload on the proctors.

[SL4P]

Here in Australia, in most jurisdictions - I'mnot allowed to replace a power outlet or the plug on a mains cable ---- yet my role in a former job was to design power distribution panels within a national telco's facilities, along with video compression and mux racks...
How does that work?

[Monkeh]

Here in Australia, in most jurisdictions - I'mnot allowed to replace a power outlet or the plug on a mains cable ---- yet my role in a former job was to design power distribution panels within a national telco's facilities, along with video compression and mux racks...
How does that work?

You're not qualified to operate a screwdriver.

[splin]

Here in Australia, in most jurisdictions - I'mnot allowed to replace a power outlet or the plug on a mains cable ---- yet my role in a former job was to design power distribution panels within a national telco's facilities, along with video compression and mux racks...
How does that work?

You're not qualified to operate a screwdriver.

A friend of mine is a Professor of electrical and electronic engineering at a major University; when consulting on power systems at Boeing he wasn't allowed to touch the controls on a scope and had to ask a technician (probably titled Avionics Engineer) to change a setting. 

More of a shop-floor union issue than anything to do with safety of course.

[james_s]

A friend of mine is a Professor of electrical and electronic engineering at a major University; when consulting on power systems at Boeing he wasn't allowed to touch the controls on a scope and had to ask a technician (probably titled Avionics Engineer) to change a setting. 

More of a shop-floor union issue than anything to do with safety of course.

It's things like that which give me a sour opinion about unions. I mean I like the concept of a union, I know they do a lot of worthwhile things, but I can't take all the ridiculous and arbitrary red tape. I'm not going to stand around waiting because the guy who's job it is to perform some menial task is busy doing something else and I'm sure not going to wait for some idiot to adjust the settings on a scope for me. They should focus on the important stuff and not act like obsessive over-controlling parents. 

[WA1ICI]

    "More of a shop-floor union issue than anything to do with safety of course."

A friend of mine from college reported a similar thing when he worked as an intern at Raytheon one summer in Massachusetts.  This was in the late 1970s.  He was always getting union grievances for doing things like rolling a scope from one side of the room to the other.  This is very stifling to design productivity.  One reason Silicon Valley is so dynamic is the lack of unions in most high-tech companies.  I'm not against unions in principle, but they are most needed in manufacturing, mining, and other dangerous jobs - not in holding a scope probe. 

However, there are major defense companies in Silicon Valley, the biggest being Lockheed.  I don't know if it was unionized, but it had the reputation of being extremely slow and stifling.  It's nickname around the valley was "The Lazy L".

- John Atwood

[AndyC_772]

I had a similar experience in my first job. I was a student engineer at a well known medium-sized electronics company.

One job I had involved making a change to a PCB. It needed a couple of pins lifting, and a trace needed to be cut.

I wasn't allowed to actually make the track cut, though. That was the job of one particular operator in the manufacturing dept. A student engineer wasn't allowed to do this, because modifying PCBs was her job.

So, I handed over the board, pointed out the trace that needed cutting, and she set about it with a scalpel.

A minute later she handed the board back to me, and I checked it. The trace was exposed, but hadn't been cut all the way through, so I handed the board back.

She squinted at the board, scratched at it for a while longer, and handed it back to me. The trace still wasn't cut all the way through. (This wasn't a big, fat power track or anything - just an ordinary logic signal, probably 7 or 8 thou).

After the third time, the trace was still intact, but there was a deep gouge next to it, right down to the ground plane. Then it dawned on me.

She didn't know what was the track, and what was the gap between tracks. She'd been scratching furiously at the space between the track I wanted breaking, and the one adjacent to it. Any actual damage to the track itself had been accidental. 

I died a little inside that day.

[CatalinaWOW]

Most of the places I worked were unionized.  I don't really know why, because the union did little for the guys in them (except for the drunks, druggies and lazy bums).  Even to the point of calling a strike once and then after a few weeks of no wages settling for a lower offer than they walked on.  I really don't know how they continued to collect dues after that.

As far as the silly rules about moving scopes and the like, I found that in general if you weren't an ass about it they didn't mind if you did small amounts of that stuff.  So leave the heavy, nasty jobs for them and do what it takes to be efficient.  I certainly didn't mind leaving it to a union guy to pick the potting off of a board.

[james_s]

Like I said, I like the idea of unions, but I just can't stand all the petty red tape that seems to come with them. I'd rather be overworked and underpaid than get fired because I just can't stand to abide by a bunch of ridiculous rules and red tape. I like being versatile and flexible, I can't stand having my hands tied and not being allowed to do something that I'm fully capable of doing.

[CatalinaWOW]

This union stuff seems off topic, but it really is the same thing.  An organization which has as part of its function the protection of members jobs taking umbrage at a non member performing a task that is related in some way to the tasks of members.  While the PE licensing organizations do have a role in maintaining standards and protecting the public, in operation (particularly as promoted by many individual members) they have many of the characteristics of a labor union.  Good and bad.

Unions do have a role in the world, and have protected many folks from abuse.  But just as corporations with great power frequently abuse that power, unions can amass great power and often abuse it.

[vodka]

Here in Australia, in most jurisdictions - I'mnot allowed to replace a power outlet or the plug on a mains cable ---- yet my role in a former job was to design power distribution panels within a national telco's facilities, along with video compression and mux racks...
How does that work?

So here,  i don't allow to install or fix electric installations without  installer card , i can't sign the blue bulletin(warrant which my  electric installation is on rule with the Regulatory company supply company ) ,any
 i can't sign The first habitability certificate and second  without being signed up on a professional college .
We are going to go more taxes and more "pizzo" on noun of the security. Each day I think that with the  Franco's  dictadure("Spain") we are more free and less constraints than now

[vodka]

Well one can complain about union bureaucracy but I imagine there's more to complain about on the other side of the coin.
How about your stories about being overworked, having to put in 60, 70, 80 hour weeks, 20+ hour days, asked to do basically 2+ jobs
without adequate staff / resources, etc.?  Somehow someone else's lack of planning becoming somehow said to be your personal emergency "WE've got to get XXX done today / this week / this month, and it's all up to YOU!".
Getting pressure to work nights, weekends, give up planned vacations, etc. awithout any compensation (or even with, still bad enough to be put into the position for lack of adequate project planning / resource allocation).

I'm always hearing stories about overworked SW engineers in Silicon Valley among others.

And then you hear about the true sweatshop conditions in a lot of the overseas manufacturing plants for electronics, 6-7 day work weeks, 18+ hours/day, etc.

Recent stories about even the most prominent tech. companies in Silicon Valley being found to be highly unfair in compensation and staffing practices to women and minorities.

There seems to be more of a need for more unions in tech rather than less to protect the interests of the employees.

How often do you feel like your company is actually looking out for you and working as hard to take care of you vs. how hard you're asked to work for their benefit?  Some lucky ones do have great respect / treatment at their jobs but I imagine a majority are not so lucky.

That happens on all the world and on all the jobs .  The unique solution that we have for avoiding the abuse and the explotation of the corporations are ourselves. If we can, we have to put limit to eat shit.
I know many cases of the people that they  didn't need money  and they were working  with "NEGREROS"("Person that sold and  bought black sclaves").
For example , a waiter that worked 12 hours per day during all days of the week and only recieved by 3 hour per day ,ergo, he worked 9 hour free per day for the restaurant.
I have  never understand the persons that works free more still when they havent economical troubles.

[thm_w]

Like I said, I like the idea of unions, but I just can't stand all the petty red tape that seems to come with them. I'd rather be overworked and underpaid than get fired because I just can't stand to abide by a bunch of ridiculous rules and red tape. I like being versatile and flexible, I can't stand having my hands tied and not being allowed to do something that I'm fully capable of doing.

Enjoy the 12+ hour days without overtime pay, for less wage than you get now.
http://www.sbctc.org/doc.asp?id=4463

As if all non-unionized jobs are guaranteed to be free from ridiculous rules and red tape.

[Habropoda]

A friend of mine is a Professor of electrical and electronic engineering at a major University; when consulting on power systems at Boeing he wasn't allowed to touch the controls on a scope and had to ask a technician (probably titled Avionics Engineer) to change a setting. 

More of a shop-floor union issue than anything to do with safety of course.

I'm more disappointed in Boeing for letting the union do their job.  If I was in charge of a project at Boeing I wouldn't allow a visiting professor touch anything either.  Imagine the conversation:
"Sure, Professor Roohparvar, feel free to move the equipment around and change anything you want.  Just be careful of the student interns over there carving on the missile guidance and commercial aircraft pcbs.  Don't want to jostle an elbow, amiright?"

Incompetence and abuse of power can happen at all levels of education, corporation and unions.  The important part is to have reasonable rules and procedures to minimize the effect this can have. 

[james_s]

Enjoy the 12+ hour days without overtime pay, for less wage than you get now.
http://www.sbctc.org/doc.asp?id=4463

As if all non-unionized jobs are guaranteed to be free from ridiculous rules and red tape.

If I were asked to routinely work 12 hour days without overtime pay I would quit and find a different job. I've never personally worked a union job and I've never had to deal with particularly unpleasant working conditions. Sure nothing is perfect, but I have not seen these sort of dire issues yet, we have federal protections today for many of the more important things unions fought for and won.

I'm not suggesting we should get rid of unions, nor questioning their value in certain respects, but I there is no shortage of ridiculous things, more ridiculous than I have ever had to deal with from my own employers. I got yelled at once years ago for unplugging and coiling up an extension cord after a trade show, give me a break, I don't care if that's so-and-so's job, he wasn't there and I was just standing around. I'm perfectly capable of unplugging an extension cord and coiling it up and that guy can piss off, I'm not 5 years old and it offends me to be treated as though I'm unqualified to perform such a basic task. Focus on the real issues, employers taking advantage of workers, mistreatment, unsafe working conditions, illegal or unethical behavior, etc. Stop having a cow over trivial stuff or going to great lengths to protect a small percentage of very low performing employees. I don't care for the extreme focus on tenure and seniority either, I mean both are worthy of consideration but IMO the primary focus ought to be on merit. It also irks me when diehard union guys huff and puff and go on as if the union is the greatest thing on earth, can do no wrong and is the sole reason any off them are the least bit competent at their jobs, while looking down their noses at anyone who is non-union, even the best and most well meaning organizations have flaws. The way the unions keep wages high for certain jobs is purely by exclusion, making it very, very difficult for people to get in, even if they are well qualified to do the job. A friend of mine spent some time working for Chrysler back in the 90s and has commented that he viewed his union dues as a tax he paid to prevent his car from getting keyed.

[wkb]

What utter nonsense

I am far more worried by certain people criticising science without a proper brain.. 

[X]

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/man-fined-dollar500-for-crime-of-writing-i-am-an-engineer-in-an-email-to-the-government
 

He was not fined for criticising the government using science without a license.
He was fined for saying he is an engineer when he is probably not. In short, probably misleading behaviour.

Jarlstrom is not now , and never has been, registered to practice engineering in Oregon, or any other state in the United States. Jarlstrom has claimed to be a Swedish engineer. However, engineering is not a regulated profession in Sweden. No licensure, registration, or certification is offered or required to practice engineering in Sweden.

My bold, hence the "probably" remark.

Turns out he was also fined for other stuff:

Jarlstrom runs an audio product design and testing business that is not registered with the Oregon Secretary of State's office.

No mention if he runs his business in Oregon or elsewhere outside that jurisdiction either.

Him criticising the government is not directly the subject of the fine, his claim of being an engineer is what is under scrutiny.

[james_s]

But he is an engineer, he's an electronics engineer, that's his job title. He never claimed to be a PE.

[Richard Crowley]

Him criticising the government is not the subject of the fine, his claim of being an engineer is what is under scrutiny.

And thus endeth the lesson.  The state has successfully deflected the attention from the real problem. Even bamboozling contributors to this august forum.   

[X]

And thus endeth the lesson.  The state has successfully deflected the attention from the real problem. Even bamboozling contributors to this august forum.   

Assuming a real problem existed in the first place, and he wasn't just trying to get his wife out of a ticket. You'll be surprised to the lengths people go to when they want to help those they care about.

That being said, it's difficult to say who's in the wrong without sufficient evidence. There is no evidence he is an actual EE, nor is there any evidence that he is actually involved in producing/designing anything. The mention of running an audio business is not evidence, as anyone with business know-how can run a business. Just because he "runs" the business doesn't mean he actually participates in the work.
Likewise, there's no evidence that he is not an engineer in Sweden since (as it says in the doc) the profession isn't regulated there, and there is no official requirement of registration.

Catchy media titles such as "Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am An Engineer' in an Email to the Government" or "Yellow-Light Crusader Fined for Doing Math Without a License" _(source) are rarely valid conclusions to cases like this.

[james_s]

When it comes down to it though, whether or not he's actually an engineer is irrelevant. He didn't design anything, he's not selling a product, he's not performing professional services. He simply pointed out a problem and rather than acknowledge the problem or defend their position and explain why his claims are incorrect, they chose to deflect and distract by zeroing in on his use of the title of "engineer" in his signature. He could have signed it claiming to be the King of Sweden and it wouldn't really matter because his title or position is for the most part irrelevant. Are his calculations correct or not? That's all anyone involved ought to be concerned with. Did he point out a legitimate problem or is he full of it? Forget his title and look into that.

[T3sl4co1l]

Just because he "runs" the business doesn't mean he actually participates in the work.

Cough.

As has been stipulated, numerous times in this thread, the whole point is that an exempted "engineer" title requires no qualifications whatsoever.

You can run a restaurant and call your cooks "culinary engineers", or "foodie architects", or whatever you like, as long as such titles fit the definition of an exemption.

Like I said before: the only thing that makes me an "engineer" (in the practical sense) is that I deliver on my promise.

Poor troll is poor.

Tim

[Richard Crowley]

When it comes down to it though, whether or not he's actually an engineer is irrelevant. He didn't design anything, he's not selling a product, he's not performing professional services. He simply pointed out a problem and rather than acknowledge the problem or defend their position and explain why his claims are incorrect, they chose to deflect and distract by zeroing in on his use of the title of "engineer" in his signature. He could have signed it claiming to be the King of Sweden and it wouldn't really matter because his title or position is for the most part irrelevant. Are his calculations correct or not? That's all anyone involved ought to be concerned with. Did he point out a legitimate problem or is he full of it? Forget his title and look into that.

Precisely.  There has been a problem with those red-light cameras in that city since the day they were installed. People have been attempting to have a meaningful discussion with the city government for DECADES.  This incident is only one recent example of the stone wall that the city government has maintained.  And it appears to demonstrate a counter-offensive strategy on the part of the authorities.  Alas, something that has become commonplace in this state. 

The programmed timing of the traffic lights at the four intersections with cameras is DEMONSTRABLY shorter than similar intersections across the state and even in the SAME city.  One can only conclude that the intervals are shorter in order to boost revenue from the cameras.  Certainly if they had any real concern for safety, they would INCREASE the intervals rather than DECREASING them.  That is why many (most?) of us simply detour around those intersections whenever possible.  Perhaps THAT is their "safety strategy"?   

[MarkS]

Even bamboozling contributors to this august forum.   

I seriously doubt that anyone here is confused about the facts of this case and the seven pages of posts show that. The thread title is misleading; basically forum click bait. We're smarter than that. Or was that sarcasm?