Man fined for criticizing govt using science, without a license

[T3sl4co1l]

I would really like if people without proper degree would stop calling them engineers. I have sworn an oath, just as doctors. They say "do no harm", I said "protect safety and health of people". If you did not do this, you are not entitled to call yourself an engineer, it is unethical.

A degree is not sufficient qualification to represent oneself as a Professional Engineer (P.E.).

For example, I make no such representation of myself, other than my job title, and my given legal name (no additional titles).

If I were a PE, or Dr, or any other legally regulated profession, I would display that title proudly!

Tim

[coppice]

"In the United States, most states prohibit unlicensed persons from calling themselves an "engineer" or indicating branches or specialities not covered by the licensing acts."
"I am allowed to say whatever it is possible to say" is not freedom of speech. He was writing an official letter to the authorities. If he would have signed as Dr. Steve Tailor or Steve Tailor PhD. he could have been fined also, because he is not a doctor.
I would really like if people without proper degree would stop calling them engineers. I have sworn an oath, just as doctors. They say "do no harm", I said "protect safety and health of people". If you did not do this, you are not entitled to call yourself an engineer, it is unethical.

Most countries have some set of protected terms for professional skills, although you need to be careful about the exact protected words. For example, in the UK only a registered professional can called themselves a dietician, but any con artist can call themselves a nutritionist. These terms generally have nothing so do with degrees, although certain degrees might be the usual minimum needed for registration. However, few countries have any registration of electronics engineers. There simply is no oath to swear, or title to be awarded.

[Zero999]

They're free to disregard good advice... that's up to them.
But, fining him for calling himself something he never asserted (namely, electrical engineer != civil engineer) is a bit over the top.
Hopefully the gov't is biting off more than they can chew, and things turn out for the best...

I hope he fights it, no way I would pay that fine.
Insane.

You say that now but in reality, it may just be easier to pay the fine. I understand this is matter of principle, rather than money, but the time, stress, legal fees etc. may make it more trouble than it's worth.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

"I am allowed to say whatever it is possible to say" is not freedom of speech. He was writing an official letter to the authorities. If he would have signed as Dr. Steve Tailor or Steve Tailor PhD. he could have been fined also, because he is not a doctor.
I would really like if people without proper degree would stop calling them engineers. I have sworn an oath, just as doctors. They say "do no harm", I said "protect safety and health of people". If you did not do this, you are not entitled to call yourself an engineer, it is unethical.

"A Beaverton man who has a bachelor of science degree in engineering and has repeatedly challenged Oregon's timing of yellow traffic lights as too short was investigated by a state board for "unlicensed practice of engineering'' and fined $500.

Now, Mats Järlström has joined with the national Institute for Justice to file a federal civil rights lawsuit against members of the Oregon State Board of Examiners for Engineering and Land Surveying.

He contends state law and the board's actions that disallow anyone from using the word "engineer" if they're not an Oregon-licensed professional engineer amount to an "unconstitutional ban on mathematical debate.'

[..]

Järlström is a Swedish-born electronics engineer. After serving as an airplane-camera mechanic in the Swedish Air Force, he worked for Luxor Electronics and immigrated to the United States in 1992, settling in Oregon. Currently, he's self-employed, testing audio products and repairing and calibrating test instruments.

"The First Amendment guarantees to every American their right to debate anything and everything,'' said attorney Samuel Gedge, of the Institute for Justice. "And nobody needs a government permission slip to talk.''

According to the suit, the state board has initiated similar "outrageous'' investigations against others for using the word "engineer,'' including Portland City Commissioner Dan Saltzman:

-- In 2014, the board received a complaint that the Voters' Pamphlet described Salatzman's background as "environmental engineer.'' Saltzman earned a bachelor of science degree in environmental and civil engineering from Cornell University, a master of science degree from MIT School of Civil Engineering and membership in the American Society of Civil Engineers. He isn't, however, an Oregon-licensed professional engineer. The board investigated, and nearly a year later, voted to warn Saltzman against using the word "engineer" in incorrect ways, according to board meeting minutes.

-- In 2010, an activist told the city council in La Pine that a new power plant would be too loud for nearby neighbors. The board fined the activist $1,000 for "illegal, unlicensed practice of engineering,'' according to board minutes.

-- More recently, the board initiated an investigation into the subject of a Portland Monthly article -- a woman immigrant and entrepreneur featured in an online story titled "The incredible story of an engineer behind Portland's newest bridge.'' The board opened an investigation because the woman wasn't a professionally licensed Oregon engineer. The board questioned the writer, who said the woman profiled didn't use the word "engineer" but her editors included it in the headline. The board ultimately found the allegation unfounded.

-- A board investigation was launched into Republican gubernatorial candidate Allen Alley based on a complaint that he misused the word "engineer'' in one of his political ads. In the ad, he said he'd take a different approach, noting, "I'm an engineer and a problem solver.'' He earned a bachelor of science in mechanical engineering from Purdue University and worked as an engineer for Ford and Boeing and holds a string of engineering-related awards. But because he's not an Oregon-registered professional engineer, the board launched an investigation that's ongoing 10 months later.

[..]
"

oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2017/04/beaverton_man_claims_oregon_st.html

[EEVblog]

oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2017/04/beaverton_man_claims_oregon_st.html

Utter madness:

According to the suit, the state board has initiated similar "outrageous'' investigations against others for using the word "engineer,'' including Portland City Commissioner Dan Saltzman:

-- In 2014, the board received a complaint that the Voters' Pamphlet described Salatzman's background as "environmental engineer.'' Saltzman earned a bachelor of science degree in environmental and civil engineering from Cornell University, a master of science degree from MIT School of Civil Engineering and membership in the American Society of Civil Engineers. He isn't, however, an Oregon-licensed professional engineer. The board investigated, and nearly a year later, voted to warn Saltzman against using the word "engineer" in incorrect ways, according to board meeting minutes.

I can understand using a title bestowed by the Society of Civil Engineers, like P.E or whatever it is, but simply using the word "engineer" when it's both your vocation and the name of your degreed field of study is crazy.

[tszaboo]

I would really like if people without proper degree would stop calling them engineers. I have sworn an oath, just as doctors. They say "do no harm", I said "protect safety and health of people". If you did not do this, you are not entitled to call yourself an engineer, it is unethical.

A degree is not sufficient qualification to represent oneself as a Professional Engineer (P.E.).

For example, I make no such representation of myself, other than my job title, and my given legal name (no additional titles).

If I were a PE, or Dr, or any other legally regulated profession, I would display that title proudly!

Tim

My university diploma declares that I have obtained the "title": "Electrical engineer". This is an official translation.
(There is no electronics engineer or equivalent in my language.)

"A Beaverton man who has a bachelor of science degree in engineering

I did not read this before. If this is true, than probably he just did not register at the  Oregon State Board of Examiners for Engineering. In fact, I change my mind, Oregon can fuck off. So if I would go there, not register myself, I wouldn't be allowed to use my title?

[EEVblog]

I did not read this before. If this is true, than probably he just did not register at the  Oregon State Board of Examiners for Engineering. In fact, I change my mind, Oregon can fuck off. So if I would go there, not register myself, I wouldn't be allowed to use my title?

I'd be extending the big middle finger too.
Most practicing EE's in oz are not members of the Institute of Engineers Australia for example, nor is it a requirement for practically any EE job in the country.
They have a fancy Chartered Professional Engineer title, but it's well known that only wankers have that 

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

In fact, I change my mind, Oregon can fuck off.

+1

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

They have a fancy Chartered Professional Engineer title, but it's well known that only wankers have that 

That ! Hahaha.

[rrinker]

 It's the case in many states in the US, you cannot practice under the title "Engineer" without passing the state exam. Like any other
 profession. I can't open an office and put a sign out calling myself an engineer without having passed the state exam. Although it may be slightly more lenient now - if you DO pass the exam you can call yourself John Doe, P.E. (professional engineer) so it may be OK so long as you don't call yourself a PE.
 On the other hand, there's a good reason why I never bothered to take the exam here - an an EE, 50% f the test would be on EE subjects, the remaining 50% spread across other engineering disciplines like civil, mechanical, etc. So half of what is 'qualifying' me in my field requires knowledge in other fields of which I have no experience and of which I am making no such claims. Gotcha. I just never bothered and since I never really actually was employed as an EE it didn't matter.
 I wonder if my employer isn't treading on some thing ice - my title is "consulting engineer" which I am pretty sure at one time was not legal in this state but perhaps that has changed. It may be perfectly legal where the company HQ is.

 All in all though, this is really politics, not science. They guy is absolutely right, the officials couldn't let facts get in the way of their revenue generator though. There are numerous studies that implementing red light cameras CAUSE more accidents than then eliminate, on no small part to the deliberate setting of the yellow duration shorter. The are often provided by a third party who then splits the revenue with the local government.

[coppice]

They have a fancy Chartered Professional Engineer title, but it's well known that only wankers have that 

Does that title actually confer anything meaningful in Australia?

[Avacee]

the officials couldn't let facts get in the way of their revenue generator though.

Amen - and if said officials lose the case and it is proven the timing sequences on all traffic lights is wrong then all previous tickets can be challenged, potentially costing the state a lot of dollars.

[EEVblog]

They have a fancy Chartered Professional Engineer title, but it's well known that only wankers have that 

Does that title actually confer anything meaningful in Australia?

Not in the EE field, no. I can't speak for other fields. I'd imagine that if you built bridges and buildings, or were the head aircraft engineer at Qantas or something, then the CPEng might be worth something.
it's basically the stepping stone to becoming a Fellow, at which point you probably get a silly ceremonial hat to wear or something.
https://www.engineersaustralia.org.au/For-Individuals/Chartered-Engineer

[EEVblog]

This brings up the question:
What if you are say an applications engineer or some such, and you lived outside of Oregon, but part of your service region was Oregon. Would you have to surrender your business card that says "engineer" at the border, lest you were committing an offence giving someone that business card and giving them advice?

[EEVblog]

Of course Wikipedia has a page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_and_licensure_in_engineering
Australia rightly doesn't have a section for "Registration and regulation" or "Title Usage"

and specifically:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineers_Australia#Regulatory_Schemes_.5B15.5D

Regulatory Schemes [15][edit]
There is no formal system of regulation for engineers throughout Australia. Engineering services are regulated under a variety of Acts in ad hoc areas, many of which relate to engineers in the building and construction industry. There are also many pieces of subordinate legislation, such as regulations, by-laws and orders-in-council that impose various prescriptive standards and incur unnecessary costs to the engineering industry in complying.

In Queensland, persons who are not registered with the Board of Professional Engineers Australia are prohibited from offering or providing professional engineering services. The only exception is for individuals who practise under the direct supervision of registered professional engineers.

First time I've heard this about QLD.
They have/had some screwed up rules about Electician Licensing, but first I've heard of EE. Anyone?

[T3sl4co1l]

This brings up the question:
What if you are say an applications engineer or some such, and you lived outside of Oregon, but part of your service region was Oregon. Would you have to surrender your business card that says "engineer" at the border, lest you were committing an offence giving someone that business card and giving them advice?

For the licensed case: you would be unwise to present yourself as, say, a Professional Engineer in the state of Oregon, without holding that qualification.  Quite correct.

Anyone operating in a service region spanning several states, would need to be licensed in all those states.

For the exempted case: it doesn't matter.

Oregon has the usual exemptions for commercial EE style activities:
https://www.nspe.org/sites/default/files/resources/pdfs/state-by-state-summary-licensure-law-exemptions.pdf
so this guy is as much an "engineer" (lowercase) as the rest of us here without PEs.  Which is to say, the usual (degreed, job titled) kind.

Tim

[EEVblog]

This brings up the question:
What if you are say an applications engineer or some such, and you lived outside of Oregon, but part of your service region was Oregon. Would you have to surrender your business card that says "engineer" at the border, lest you were committing an offence giving someone that business card and giving them advice?

For the licensed case: you would be unwise to present yourself as, say, a Professional Engineer in the state of Oregon, without holding that qualification.  Quite correct.

Of course. I'm talking about simply using the word "engineer"

For the exempted case: it doesn't matter.
Oregon has the usual exemptions for commercial EE style activities:
https://www.nspe.org/sites/default/files/resources/pdfs/state-by-state-summary-licensure-law-exemptions.pdf
so this guy is as much an "engineer" (lowercase) as the rest of us here without PEs.  Which is to say, the usual (degreed, job titled) kind.

So why did the guy get fined for using the title "engineer"?

[T3sl4co1l]

So why did the guy get fined for using the title "engineer"?

They might maintain that the particular way he represented himself in the letters was wrong.  If he sues them over it, their defense isn't looking very good, though.    (Aka they look like assholes)

Tim

[Tom45]

Somebody should get ahold of the company directories of the various silicon forest companies* and file complaints about all of the "engineers" working in those companies. I bet things would change quickly.

My father was a PE and I know that it does mean something.

*silicon forest companies include Tektronix, Intel, HP, Maxim, Microchip, Epson, Mentor Graphics, NVidia, FLIR, Lattice, Linear Technologies.

[Richard Crowley]

To those of us who live here, this isn't terribly surprising. The Oregon state government firmly in the control of the public employees unions who operate the government by and for themselves, the population be damned. They have voted themselves huge pensions so the point where in some cases the cost of retirement benefits exceeds the budget for current working employees.  And facing billion-dollar shortfalls in the pension scheme which they have no hope of meeting.  So the state government using their interpretation of the laws to fight criticism is quite expected here.

Furthermore, those red-light cameras in Beaverton (home of Tektronix) have been notorious since they were installed. The city government has all but admitted that they are simply a revenue-source that has nothing to do with "public safety". The timing of the signals in those intersections is measurably shorter than equivalent intersections in the area.  They have been the subject of reporting and dispute for decades. There are companies who subsidize the installation cost of these robot bandits for a percentage of the "fines" levied by the city. It would be scandalous if it hadn't become commonplace here after decades of corruption. My GPS warns me about these intersections so that I typically plan my route to avoid these traps.

[Richard Crowley]

I can understand using a title bestowed by the Society of Civil Engineers, like P.E or whatever it is, but simply using the word "engineer" when it's both your vocation and the name of your degreed field of study is crazy.

Saltzman is a chronic thorn in the side of the state government.  They hate him and go after him for everything and anything they can dream up.  Politics as usual here in the Silicon Forest.

[iainwhite]

Teslacoil:   I hope Oregon doesn't have a trade body for "Experts" . . . . they may want $500 from you     

[edpalmer42]

That's freaking ridiculous.    Having to be "registered" to practice engineering is a thing... wow.  I don't want to live on this planet anymore.  Seriously, this kind of stuff pisses me off and it's all over.  So much ridiculous legislation like this everywhere you turn and it's only getting worse.

In all Canadian provinces, if you call yourself a Professional Engineer without being a member of the provincial engineering association, you will be prosecuted under provincial law.  Unfortunately, it's provincial, not federal law that applies.

Microsoft got into a lot of trouble some years ago with their software engineer degrees.  It went all the way to the Supreme Court.  Microsoft lost.

Ed

[Bud]

J just recently met with some US company rep who had "Sales Engineer" title on his card. That was funny.

[rstofer]

I would really like if people without proper degree would stop calling them engineers. I have sworn an oath, just as doctors. They say "do no harm", I said "protect safety and health of people". If you did not do this, you are not entitled to call yourself an engineer, it is unethical.

I must have missed the memo on swearing an oath upon graduation with an MSEE. 

The thing is, my degree is in electronics (computer hardware design) and that is one of the disciplines of engineering that isn't licensed, or, in general, offered for sale to the public.  I could, I suppose, eventually wiggle my way into a PE in Electrical Engineering but there is usually some amount of indentured servitude required (4 years working under another PE) between the time you pass the Engineer-In-Training (EIT) exam and you apply for the PE exam.

The EIT exam highly favors Civil Engineers and electronics engineers are in for a lot of pre-exam study.  We just don't take the proper courses that would make the exam easier.  Yes, I passed it, way back in '76.

How about aerospace engineers?  Are the guys designing the Mars spaceship required to be licensed as some kind of engineer?  Probably not.

Notice in the list of exceptions that most corporations can hire people to do in-house engineering without requiring registration.  I suspect this is because the corporations have a ton of insurance.

It seems to me that if you graduate with a degree in engineering, you are an engineer.  Whether you can practice certain types of engineering involving public safety is another matter.  And this extends to calling yourself an engineer in a field that does require registration.

To the topic at hand:  Of course the state wants him to shut up.  If his calculations are accepted and the previous standards are truly incorrect, the state has considerable exposure.  Not only for excessive citations but possibly for turn lane accidents.  Fining him was not the best way to handle the problem.  Once it gets in the paper, all kinds of things come out of the woodwork.