Man fined for criticizing govt using science, without a license

[mikeselectricstuff]

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/man-fined-dollar500-for-crime-of-writing-i-am-an-engineer-in-an-email-to-the-government
 

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

Of course, he committed a thoughtcrime.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoughtcrime

[BrianHG]

  This is the world some of us live in...

[MarkS]

Oregon is #2, just behind California, in messed up nonsensical laws in the U.S. This doesn't surprise me in the least. It will be interesting watching the state defend the regulations. They might have a case if he were offering his services for hire, as then licensing would come into play, but anyone trained, even self-trained, in a field is technically an "engineer" and would be 100% correct in calling themselves as much, even if they cannot work as such.

[RGB255_0_0]

I think hobbyists reading that will have to be careful what they call themselves. I'm guessing "visitors" are exempt from that law?

[MarkS]

I do understand where the state is coming from. I can study medicine on my own and potentially know as much, if not more than, a person graduating from medical school. I still cannot practice medicine without being licensed. This is a very real threat to the public. The same goes for an engineer. There are reasons for mandatory apprenticeships and licensing. No one in their right mind would drive over a bridge designed by some guy in his garage without a lengthy engineering review. Where the state overstepped their bounds is by preventing someone from calling themselves an engineer without being licensed. I can call myself whatever I want, even publicly and officially, without being licensed. I just cannot practice as such.

What happened here is akin to someone being on the receiving end of medical malpractice, researching for themselves what procedures should have been done, presenting that research and their experiences to the medical review board and then getting fined for practicing medicine without a license.

[T3sl4co1l]

Without looking at the particulars of the laws, I would suppose:

For the purpose of making engineering judgements about civil infrastructure, he has no qualification.  That is, he is not a registered PE, for civil engineering purposes, and therefore for legal and civil purposes.

They're free to disregard good advice... that's up to them.

But, fining him for calling himself something he never asserted (namely, electrical engineer != civil engineer) is a bit over the top.

Hopefully the gov't is biting off more than they can chew, and things turn out for the best...

Tim

[T3sl4co1l]

I just cannot practice as such.

So an important question: does this constitute practice?

(I would think not: he isn't being paid for it!)

Tim

[RGB255_0_0]

...

I'd bet good money on if you called yourself a policeman or military personnel of standing you'd be breaking more serious laws than that of a civil fine.

[MarkS]

I'd bet good money on if you called yourself a policeman or military personnel of standing you'd be breaking more serious laws than that of a civil fine.

I can call myself a police officer or even a four star general. It's only once I try to take actions as such that laws come into effect. The Supreme Court recently overturned a law that penalized someone for claiming to be a veteran. You are free to claim to be active duty or retired military, regardless if it is true or not, so long as you do not use this as a ruse to collect benefits (monetary, access to facilities, charity, etc.). It is only after the speech turns to actions that the free speech protections provided by the Constitution cease.

[donotdespisethesnake]

It's clear that he broke the law and continued to do so after it was pointed out to him. It didn't help that he tried to sue the authorities (he lost), all so he could get his wife off of a traffic ticket.

When people buy electronics, they must be assured it is made by a licensed electronics engineer, and not just someone who happened to learn electronics at home and now calls themselves an electronics engineer. This sort of wanton lawlessness should be clamped down upon hard, in any free and open society. You simply cannot have people challenging unelected government officials, that is not democratic!

[MarkS]

It's clear that he broke the law and continued to do so after it was pointed out to him. It didn't help that he tried to sue the authorities (he lost), all so he could get his wife off of a traffic ticket.

Actually, according the the U.S. Constitution, he did not break a law. The Constitution is the document that all U.S. laws are judged on. You cannot enact a law that restricts a person's speech without clear and immediate dangers to public safety (or some legal terminology that escapes my mind at the moment). As such, the law in question, as written, will most likely not stand a constitutional challenge. More over, he only filed the lawsuit last week, so he hasn't lost and will most likely prevail.

[Red Squirrel]

That's freaking ridiculous.    Having to be "registered" to practice engineering is a thing... wow.  I don't want to live on this planet anymore.  Seriously, this kind of stuff pisses me off and it's all over.  So much ridiculous legislation like this everywhere you turn and it's only getting worse.

[CJay]

While this case seems to be rather ridiculous and seems to be a way to silence him, I believe engineers should be afforded some sort of professional status and right to use the title, I have heard that they are in some countries, Germany and Switzerland perhaps?

[jpanhalt]

I agree with those who say the difference lies in whether he held himself out to be a professional in a profession or trade licensed and regulated by the state (e.g., physician, lawyer, some types of engineer, electricians) or whether the term was used descriptively.  Whether one gets paid for services rendered as "profession" may or may not be relevant to a violation.  For example, representing another person in court as a lawyer is a violation regardless of whether you get paid as is calling yourself an M.D. and treating patients absent that degree and license. 

In a case in Minnesota with which I am familiar, an individual licensed by the state as a PE needed to sign off on design of a building's foundation.  The building's main structure also needed similar approval and sign-off by a licensed engineer.  However, portions of the building were "engineered" by a contractor who was not a licensed engineer nor did he need to be one.  The state ruled there was no violation in that act.  Of course, it is hard to predict how West Coast judges will rule.

John

[coppice]

That's freaking ridiculous.    Having to be "registered" to practice engineering is a thing... wow.  I don't want to live on this planet anymore.  Seriously, this kind of stuff pisses me off and it's all over.  So much ridiculous legislation like this everywhere you turn and it's only getting worse.

Its common around the world that civil/structural engineers need to be registered and licenced. Since public safety rests on their work, its not unreasonable, and the licencing rules were often the result of some nasty incidents of poor engineering. Electronics is an oddity. Almost all electronic equipment is designed by people with no professional licencing, but the people doing the simple installation and maintenance of such equipment frequently do require a licence.

[T3sl4co1l]

Let's get some hot tasty reference in here:
https://www.nspe.org/sites/default/files/resources/pdfs/state-by-state-summary-licensure-law-exemptions.pdf

Looks like the guy is OK to "practice", given the typical EE activities and market.

Tim

[mikeselectricstuff]

I would have though that any licensing requirements of "practising as an engineer" type regulation should only cover work done for payment or in thecourse of a job, which clearly doesn't apply here.

[BrianHG]

When people buy electronics, they must be assured it is made by a licensed electronics engineer, and not just someone who happened to learn electronics at home and now calls themselves an electronics engineer.

Funny, I'm just that.  I've developed automatic food packaging machine electronics, a CATV converter, a video stabilizer & enhancer for analog VCRs, a 24 bit video card for the Amiga home computer, a 3D stereoscopic glasses and interface, and multiformat video scaler, all which passed UL safety certification and FCC approvals and I sold them.  Now I do not have some sort of license for electronic engineering, I'm self taught at home.  Are you saying I should be put in jail?

What about all the software apps made by self taught programmers with successful software, never earning a software engineering degree, should they go to jail or be fined?  If a poorly developed program crashes a computer system which delegates important stuff, money can be lost, or someone's safety may be at risk.

[BrianHG]

I would have though that any licensing requirements of "practising as an engineer" type regulation should only cover work done for payment or in thecourse of a job, which clearly doesn't apply here.

You are correct.  The key here is 'engineers hired by the state, or an engineer contracted by the state requires the engineer to be licensed...'  This makes more sense, especially from a liability standpoint.  He should have been able to get out of the 500$ fine easily since he didn't do such a thing.  But when it comes to law, and wording, he fell into a trap and without proper legal council in the matter, which would cost more than the 500$ fine, he's sorta stuck.

[boffin]

Now there's also some interesting history in Oregon over names you can apply to yourself. Oregon was one of the 1st states to prevent people from claiming they had a degree when it came from a dodgy "life experience" unaccredited degree granting institutions (like Kennedy Western / Warren National).  Amazing what you come across when you start looking into the credentials of who will become your boss.

http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20041221005728/en/Oregon-Settles-Federal-Lawsuit-Filed-Kennedy-Western-University

I suspect if this goes further it will be overturned, because the term "engineer" is way too vague for the P.Eng body to enforce that all engineers are licensed by them (what about people who drive trains?).

Also what happens when Dr J comes to play basketball in Portland, or the "Tube Amp Doctor" fixes your classic blackface Fender, or the "Rug Doctor" cleans your carpets etc etc...

[EEVblog]

They're free to disregard good advice... that's up to them.
But, fining him for calling himself something he never asserted (namely, electrical engineer != civil engineer) is a bit over the top.
Hopefully the gov't is biting off more than they can chew, and things turn out for the best...

I hope he fights it, no way I would pay that fine.
Insane.

[EEVblog]

I suspect if this goes further it will be overturned, because the term "engineer" is way too vague for the P.Eng body to enforce that all engineers are licensed by them (what about people who drive trains?).

Yep, no way they can control usage of the name in a general sense, there are countless branches of engineering:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_engineering_branches

[tszaboo]

It's clear that he broke the law and continued to do so after it was pointed out to him. It didn't help that he tried to sue the authorities (he lost), all so he could get his wife off of a traffic ticket.

Actually, according the the U.S. Constitution, he did not break a law. The Constitution is the document that all U.S. laws are judged on. You cannot enact a law that restricts a person's speech without clear and immediate dangers to public safety (or some legal terminology that escapes my mind at the moment). As such, the law in question, as written, will most likely not stand a constitutional challenge. More over, he only filed the lawsuit last week, so he hasn't lost and will most likely prevail.

"In the United States, most states prohibit unlicensed persons from calling themselves an "engineer" or indicating branches or specialities not covered by the licensing acts."
"I am allowed to say whatever it is possible to say" is not freedom of speech. He was writing an official letter to the authorities. If he would have signed as Dr. Steve Tailor or Steve Tailor PhD. he could have been fined also, because he is not a doctor.
I would really like if people without proper degree would stop calling them engineers. I have sworn an oath, just as doctors. They say "do no harm", I said "protect safety and health of people". If you did not do this, you are not entitled to call yourself an engineer, it is unethical.

[VEGETA]

Anyone can say his opinion but an official degree is only required for payment jobs. However, on the other side, we can't take any word from anyone to be legit... but having a fine for it is just nonsense unless he really causes chaos and stuff.