Man fined for criticizing govt using science, without a license

[T3sl4co1l]

Teslacoil:   I hope Oregon doesn't have a trade body for "Experts" . . . . they may want $500 from you     

Would be state of Wisconsin, actually, for anyone wondering

But no, anyone can call themselves an eggspurt.  It's my knowledge that makes me one.

Tim

[rfeecs]

What about Sanitation Engineers (garbage men)?
Software Engineers (computer programmers)?

On one of my first jobs (in California) my boss told us that we couldn't be titled "Engineer" because we didn't have a professional engineer's license.  So all engineers were called "Member of the Technical Staff".  Possibly it was the policy of the corporation that operated nationally and internationally.

In more than 30 years of working, I have only run into a few licensed professional electrical engineers.

[Iwanushka]

My Diploma says Computer systems engineering, so hw/sw/fw, and I cant use word engineer, but I had to design hw/fw/sw as my final project and present working thing to finish Uni... that's just plain stupid 

Edit: better to move to titles that say Wizard of X

[james_s]

I dropped out of college when I ran out of money but engineering is a passion of mine more so than a career choice so I kept going on my own. My employer calls me an engineer, I do engineering work, so I call myself an engineer. I've designed hardware devices that are out in the field, these are not sealed black boxes that come out of my garage and go straight to the customer, the production units are manufactured, tested and certified by others so it's not as if I could just hack together something without knowing what I'm doing and not have anyone notice. It's not as if I'm designing skyscrapers and bridges or airplanes or radiotherapy machines or something where really specialized expertise is required.

Then of course I've encountered plenty of devices designed by supposedly professional, degreed engineers that were horrid hack jobs. One tends to assume everyone doing that sort of thing knows what they're doing but it's not uncommon that I'm scratching my head trying to imagine what the heck they were thinking.

[Zero999]

I would really like if people without proper degree would stop calling them engineers.

Since when did having a degree may you an engineer?

Is doesn't. Having a combination of theoretical knowledge and practical experience, makes one an engineer. Someone straight out of university, with a highly theoretical engineering degree, yet no practical experience whatsoever is not an engineer. This doesn't mean that they have wasted they're time studying. It's a very good investment, but until they've learned how to apply what they've learnt at university, and probably forgotten over half of it, they aren't really an engineer.

I have sworn an oath, just as doctors. They say "do no harm", I said "protect safety and health of people". If you did not do this, you are not entitled to call yourself an engineer, it is unethical.

When did you do that?

[james_s]

I have sworn an oath, just as doctors. They say "do no harm", I said "protect safety and health of people". If you did not do this, you are not entitled to call yourself an engineer, it is unethical.

When did you do that?
[/quote]

That would create an interesting dilemma for engineers that design firearms and military equipment.

[JPortici]

I would really like if people without proper degree would stop calling them engineers.

Since when did having a degree may you an engineer?

Is doesn't. Having a combination of theoretical knowledge and practical experience, makes one an engineer. Someone straight out of university, with a highly theoretical engineering degree, yet no practical experience whatsoever is not an engineer. This doesn't mean that they have wasted they're time studying. It's a very good investment, but until they've learned how to apply what they've learnt at university, and probably forgotten over half of it, they aren't really an engineer.

I have sworn an oath, just as doctors. They say "do no harm", I said "protect safety and health of people". If you did not do this, you are not entitled to call yourself an engineer, it is unethical.

When did you do that?

well, we have (had) a term for that. perito (latin, means expert), that's what i am: my high school diploma came from what most people in the world call technical school, but i've seen very few fellow with that kind of degree that were something more that an skilled labourer.. no offence intended, it's just that we were trained to be engineers but without an engineering degree, a different kind of education.

fun fact #1: Unfortunately we are being phased out, around the time i graudated a lot of disastrous school reforms, cutting school hours to get in line with EU (sigh) and redistributing the course so more humanistic hours and less technical hours. labs cut in half, they don't even do chem lab anymore. so sad

fun fact #2 on my last day of high school during the first hours we DID have a "swearing ceremony" that my most hated teacher used to put up. me, i wasn't there, i was playing a gig in another school and arrived a few hours late. I wonder what makes of me...
anyway the ceremony was really simillar to the doctor's oath.

[donmr]

When people buy electronics, they must be assured it is made by a licensed electronics engineer, and not just someone who happened to learn electronics at home and now calls themselves an electronics engineer.
...

Oregon has no license for "Electronics Engineer".  I have never heard of a licensing requirement in the US for designers of electronics, semiconductors, computers, etc.

[brucehoult]

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/man-fined-dollar500-for-crime-of-writing-i-am-an-engineer-in-an-email-to-the-government
 

He mentions turning, but there is also a problem if you pull out of a parking space near a traffic light and enter the intersection at low speed just as the lights go amber. Most cars don't have sufficient acceleration to exit the intersection before the red.

This can also happen if the intersection exit is blocked and you want to enter it, as you should.

[tszaboo]

I would really like if people without proper degree would stop calling them engineers.

Since when did having a degree may you an engineer?

Is doesn't. Having a combination of theoretical knowledge and practical experience, makes one an engineer. Someone straight out of university, with a highly theoretical engineering degree, yet no practical experience whatsoever is not an engineer. This doesn't mean that they have wasted they're time studying. It's a very good investment, but until they've learned how to apply what they've learnt at university, and probably forgotten over half of it, they aren't really an engineer.

I have sworn an oath, just as doctors. They say "do no harm", I said "protect safety and health of people". If you did not do this, you are not entitled to call yourself an engineer, it is unethical.

When did you do that?

Since my diploma said exactly that, made by a official institute, having the right to declare that I'm an engineer. I swore the oath at the first school year opening ceremony. It's kinda big deal, the university usually has our President invited. So, you say, other countries dont do this?

[brucehoult]

I just cannot practice as such.

So an important question: does this constitute practice?

(I would think not: he isn't being paid for it!)

He's not being paid for it and moreover no action of any kind has been taken as a result of his claims.

He is merely drawing his calculations to the attention of the licenced engineers for verification or refutation. It is up to them to decide whether or not to take any remedial action with respect to the traffic lights.

[coppice]

Since my diploma said exactly that, made by a official institute, having the right to declare that I'm an engineer. I swore the oath at the first school year opening ceremony. It's kinda big deal, the university usually has our President invited. So, you say, other countries dont do this?

Globally, this is a very unusual practice.

[rstofer]

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/man-fined-dollar500-for-crime-of-writing-i-am-an-engineer-in-an-email-to-the-government
 

He mentions turning, but there is also a problem if you pull out of a parking space near a traffic light and enter the intersection at low speed just as the lights go amber. Most cars don't have sufficient acceleration to exit the intersection before the red.

This can also happen if the intersection exit is blocked and you want to enter it, as you should.

In most states, if you enter on yellow, you're good.  OTOH, if you get stuck in the intersection after the light turns red, you're blocking an intersections and that isn't allowed.  So, you need to enter on yellow and not get stuck.  Accelerating to get into the crossing on the yellow is also an offense.

That's why the chart linked earlier shows a constant speed.

One thing the red light cameras did is cause more rear end collisions.  Nobody wanted to chance a ticket so they jammed on the brakes when the light turned yellow.  The car behind didn't...

[james_s]

As much as I hate it when a bunch of cars stream through a red light, the cameras really did cause more problems than they solved. The final thing that turned me fully against them is when a citizens initiative was drafted to shut then down in a city near me and a representative was quoted as saying "we need the revenue". Ok so they're not about safety, they're about revenue, and coupled with the significantly increased rates of rear end collisions they're just an all around bad idea. In the 20 some years I've been driving I've never hit anything, never had a ticket, never even so much as a parking ticket, but I've lost count of the number of times I've been rear ended. It's frustrating beyond belief.

[mtdoc]

In the 20 some years I've been driving I've never hit anything, never had a ticket, never even so much as a parking ticket, but I've lost count of the number of times I've been rear ended. It's frustrating beyond belief.

We all know that correlation != causation, but still, you might want to consider the possibility that there is some cause and effect relationship there.   

[james_s]

In the 20 some years I've been driving I've never hit anything, never had a ticket, never even so much as a parking ticket, but I've lost count of the number of times I've been rear ended. It's frustrating beyond belief.

We all know that correlation != causation, but still, you might want to consider the possibility that there is some cause and effect relationship there. 

I'm sure there is, such as living in a densely populated area with a lot of people who can't seem to put their smartphones down and drive. Other than that I don't know, I've been stationary every time I was hit. If you can find some way that I share even a tiny bit of the responsibility of being rear ended while I'm stopped at a light or stopped in traffic I'd love to know so I can avoid doing whatever that is. It's not even like I slam on the brakes in most cases though I did once to avoid a cyclist who darted in front of me and the girl who hit me took off and left the scene when I pulled into a parking lot to inspect the damage. Just a few weeks ago I finally had a serious one, got creamed by a tandem trailer gasoline tanker semi, dunno what the driver was doing but he failed to notice that traffic was backed up and slammed into the car stopped behind me at 50-60 MPH. I was lucky to walk away from that one. In every single one of these the driver who hit me was cited on the spot for causing the accident, well except for the one who fled the scene and a couple of little bumps where there was no damage so I just let them go.

[brucehoult]

In the 20 some years I've been driving I've never hit anything, never had a ticket, never even so much as a parking ticket, but I've lost count of the number of times I've been rear ended. It's frustrating beyond belief.

We all know that correlation != causation, but still, you might want to consider the possibility that there is some cause and effect relationship there. 

You are legally allowed to stop at any moment, without warning. It is ENTIRELY the responsibility of any following vehicle to maintain a separation sufficient to allow them to stop if you do.

[coppice]

In the 20 some years I've been driving I've never hit anything, never had a ticket, never even so much as a parking ticket, but I've lost count of the number of times I've been rear ended. It's frustrating beyond belief.

We all know that correlation != causation, but still, you might want to consider the possibility that there is some cause and effect relationship there. 

You are legally allowed to stop at any moment, without warning. It is ENTIRELY the responsibility of any following vehicle to maintain a separation sufficient to allow them to stop if you do.

While this is true, some people get hit in the back frequently while their neighbours never get hit. There just might be something in their behaviour which confuses other road users.

[mtdoc]

You are legally allowed to stop at any moment, without warning. It is ENTIRELY the responsibility of any following vehicle to maintain a separation sufficient to allow them to stop if you do.

Oh, of course.  But we all know there are plenty of drivers who will tailgate a driver who is driving at the posted speed limit.

I was not saying that james_s has done anything wrong.

If he's always been at a complete stop at a stop light for a short time before being rear-ended then that's just bad luck. 

On the other hand someone who is driving at or under the legal speed limit (and thus being unwisely tailgated) who then stops short at the first hint of a yellow light might be driving perfectly legally but still making themselves more likely to get rear-ended.

[LaserSteve]

In my state, he was justified with the title, as he has a degree from a recognized institution, and was not practicing safety of life work.

I used to be a nationwide  field service engineer for a major company, based out of Ohio, USA  . This frequently resulted in the words, " I am Not a PE in the State of" , or " I am not a degreed Engineer, but I suggest.." when on the road, more or less for my peace of mind.  I found clients liked the honesty if the decision involved minor structural or building infrastructure issues, which it often did.  Some states have poor language, and will not let your company bestow the title on you for internal work.  Ohio really ties the PE title to public works, safety of life, and building work, not so much for other disciplines.  Ohio's language is very clear and easy compared to other states, I quote:

"
A) Except for an individual who, as part of the internal classification system of the individual’s employer, uses the title “engineer” by itself or in conjunction with another term described in division (B) of this section and who does not represent the individual’s self to the public or otherwise advertise the individual’s self as an engineer, no individual shall, in connection with the individual’s name, assume, use, or advertise:

(1) The title “engineer” by itself unless the individual is an engineer;

(2) The title “engineer” in conjunction with another term that modifies the title “engineer” in a manner that conveys the impression that the individual is a graduate of an accredited engineering curriculum unless the individual is a graduate of an accredited engineering curriculum.

(B) Terms used in conjunction with the title “engineer” under division (A)(2) of this section that imply a person is a graduate of an accredited engineering curriculum include the following: “aerospace,” “agricultural,” “civil,” “chemical,” “computer,” “electrical,” “industrial,” “mechanics,” “mechanical,” “metallurgical,” “mining,” “naval architectural and marine,” “nuclear,” and any other term commonly used by an institution of higher learning to apply to graduates of an accredited engineering curriculum.

(C) Nothing in this section shall be interpreted as prohibiting the use, assumption, or advertisement of the title “steam engineer” or “stationary engineer,” by or on behalf of a person licensed under Chapter 4739. of the Revised Code, or the term “railroad engineer” or “locomotive engineer,” by or on behalf of a person authorized to operate a railroad locomotive, or the term “operating engineer,” by or on behalf of a person who operates, maintains, repairs, or manufactures light or heavy construction equipment.

HISTORY: 144 v H 482 (Effective 07-01-1993); 149 v H 337. Effective Date 08-06-2002."

Endeth the Quote...

I'm aware of a test case where a fellow with over 100 patents, and a EE  degree, was sued by his state board for using the title in correspondence.   Considering whom he works for, they are really ticking the tail of the dragon..

Steve

[vodka]

In the 20 some years I've been driving I've never hit anything, never had a ticket, never even so much as a parking ticket, but I've lost count of the number of times I've been rear ended. It's frustrating beyond belief.

We all know that correlation != causation, but still, you might want to consider the possibility that there is some cause and effect relationship there. 

You are legally allowed to stop at any moment, without warning. It is ENTIRELY the responsibility of any following vehicle to maintain a separation sufficient to allow them to stop if you do.

While this is true, some people get hit in the back frequently while their neighbours never get hit. There just might be something in their behaviour which confuses other road users.

There are many subnormal people  who paste( less 3 m) to its ass(back) when you go to 120km\h  on dual carriageway. I have  never seen that any police put a fine by not leave a minnium security distance .

I would really like if people without proper degree would stop calling them engineers.

Since when did having a degree may you an engineer?

Is doesn't. Having a combination of theoretical knowledge and practical experience, makes one an engineer. Someone straight out of university, with a highly theoretical engineering degree, yet no practical experience whatsoever is not an engineer. This doesn't mean that they have wasted they're time studying. It's a very good investment, but until they've learned how to apply what they've learnt at university, and probably forgotten over half of it, they aren't really an engineer.

You don't wrong , you are a engineer so  much if you have  experience as if you haven't. And that on front a judge you will always prune versus a redneck without degree.

[james_s]

Much of the problem now I think is people glued to their damn smartphones. Every day I see idiots weaving around with a phone in their hand, texting, screwing with facebook or whatever it is people do now. They say distracted driving is now as dangerous as driving drunk and it is reaching epidemic levels.

I've always tried to provide plenty of warning, slow gradually, creep to a stop, leave plenty of space in front of me whenever possible. I'm not aggressive, don't tailgate, dart in front of/behind other cars or slam on my brakes unless it's a true emergency. These days I'm so paranoid that I'm constantly glancing in my mirror and looking for somewhere to go if the person behind me is not paying attention. I don't drive particularly slowly either, I'm almost always going at least the speed limit or as fast as the car in front of me. In more than 20 years of driving ~200,000 miles I've never caused an accident, never got a ticket, only ever been pulled over once in my life and that was for a burned out light. I don't even know anyone with a cleaner record than that.

This time I bought a bright red Volvo turbo wagon to replace the darker colored sedan that was recently totaled. I generally prefer the darker colors but maybe now people will see me better and not run into me. For the record, the 30 year old 740 performed flawlessly in the accident, the reinforced cage and crumple zones worked exactly as designed. Hats off to the Swedes who designed the thing if any of them are still around, it fully lived up to the legendary reputation for safety despite no airbags or other band aids and I was able to get out and walk away after getting smashed in the rear tremendously hard and then spun around, hit in the side and pushed by the huge truck.

[CatalinaWOW]

All of the states I have lived and worked in required the License to "practice engineering".  In most companies this is well hidden because some small number of licensed engineers are on the payroll and they sign off on all legally required documents.  The vast majority just design away depending on their degree or whatever.  No big deal, the public is protected and most people get to go along with their lives and jobs without interference.

The process to get licensed is fairly involved, and contrary to what others have said, difficult for all branches of engineering.  The civil guys have to learn material properties and power transmission while the electrical guys get to learn grading of curves and properties of beams.  It varies from state to state but usually breaks down into an Engineer in Training exam, followed by a duration in practice, and then the PE exam.  Anyone with sound math and the ability to study can pass, but it takes work and many fail one or both exams.  These tests do not reward creativity, they reward memorization and familiarity with standard solutions.  You can retake them, but it is expensive and time consuming. 

And this leads to the problems.  Those who pass now belong to a difficult and exclusive club, and want get some benefit out of their efforts.  Can't let all that time and effort go down the tubes without something to show for it.  In my observation it is always the more marginal guys who show this character most strongly.  I have rarely seen the brighter and most creative practitioners of our field tout their license (beyond listing it on the resume).  And except for the cases where a company is looking for someone to meet the above mentioned legal requirements I have never seen it looked for when recruiting or hiring consultants.  That alone tells volumes about this.

[brucehoult]

In the 20 some years I've been driving I've never hit anything, never had a ticket, never even so much as a parking ticket, but I've lost count of the number of times I've been rear ended. It's frustrating beyond belief.

We all know that correlation != causation, but still, you might want to consider the possibility that there is some cause and effect relationship there. 

You are legally allowed to stop at any moment, without warning. It is ENTIRELY the responsibility of any following vehicle to maintain a separation sufficient to allow them to stop if you do.

While this is true, some people get hit in the back frequently while their neighbours never get hit. There just might be something in their behaviour which confuses other road users.

I made the comment about being legally allowed to stop.

Of course emergency stops in the middle of the road for little apparent reason might not be prudent. Especially if you're a motorcyclist, as I am (with around half a million km behind me). I keep an eye on who is behind me, and if anyone is closer than I'm comfortable with I pull over and let them past. And then if they drive slower in front of me than they did behind me (surprisingly often) I overtake them again and repeat as many times as necessary until they damn well stop being stupid.

I've been in cars that have been rear-ended twice. Both times as a passenger with the same driver.

[james_s]

I made the comment about being legally allowed to stop.

Of course emergency stops in the middle of the road for little apparent reason might not be prudent. Especially if you're a motorcyclist, as I am (with around half a million km behind me). I keep an eye on who is behind me, and if anyone is closer than I'm comfortable with I pull over and let them past. And then if they drive slower in front of me than they did behind me (surprisingly often) I overtake them again and repeat as many times as necessary until they damn well stop being stupid.

I've been in cars that have been rear-ended twice. Both times as a passenger with the same driver.

I used to work with a guy who had a prosthetic leg due to some idiot running a red light while he was on a motorcycle. That and having been rear ended a number of times in my car has been enough to keep me from getting a motorcycle though they look like a lot of fun. Some days it just feels like the universe is trying to kill me.