Man fined for criticizing govt using science, without a license

[Richard Crowley]

Even bamboozling contributors to this august forum.   

I seriously doubt that anyone here is confused about the facts of this case and the seven pages of posts show that. The thread title is misleading; basically forum click bait. We're smarter than that. Or was that sarcasm?

Several people here have expressed doubts about the underlying technical problem and focused on the distraction strategy of the government.  Classic misdirection as practiced by any half-competent magician.

[EEVblog]

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/man-fined-dollar500-for-crime-of-writing-i-am-an-engineer-in-an-email-to-the-government
 

He was not fined for criticising the government using science without a license.
He was fined for saying he is an engineer when he is probably not. In short, probably misleading behaviour.

Nope, he was fined because he used the title "engineer" without being licensed in that state.
That is a very different thing from whether not his vocations and/or qualifications are in engineering.

[EEVblog]

For those who haven't seen it, some of his calcs:


https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/man-fined-dollar500-for-crime-of-writing-i-am-an-engineer-in-an-email-to-the-government

[MarkS]

Yep. Seen it. Lots of letters and numbers and symbols and squiggly lines and pretty colors.

[james_s]

The important part there is pretty clear from the graph and in fact doesn't even need a graph. The yellow interval for the intersections in question are substantially shorter than standard.

IIRC a city up in my area got busted a number of years ago for doing the same thing.

[josecamoessilva]

For those who haven't seen it, some of his calcs:


https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/man-fined-dollar500-for-crime-of-writing-i-am-an-engineer-in-an-email-to-the-government

Therein lies his problem: he had a little to much to think. Governments don't like when the subjects consumers tax sources people do that.

[MarkS]

The important part there is pretty clear from the graph and in fact doesn't even need a graph. The yellow interval for the intersections in question are substantially shorter than standard.

I get it. I was having some fun.

[X]

Nope, he was fined because he used the title "engineer" without being licensed in that state.
That is a very different thing from whether not his vocations and/or qualifications are in engineering.

True, I wrote that quite late and should have been more clear. He is probably an engineer somewhere, but isn't legally an engineer in his state, hence the subject of the fine.

He was (apparently) told not to use "engineer" before (suggesting he had previous run-ins with Oregon officials), and agreed to this condition, but still broke this condition. Based on what I've read, it appears he's done this kind of thing before, and even though it is clear he wasn't licensed, it isn't clear whether or not he is actually qualified at all.
My point still stands, he wasn't "fined for using science without a license" and this kind of title has clickbait quality.

Poor troll is poor.

I am not sure who you are accusing of being a troll, but as Carl Sagan said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

I'm not saying the state was in the right, but there is not a lot of evidence that state was in the wrong.

Two possibilities:

1. A man who knows his shit is pointing out an issue with the local traffic lights, and the state is trying to hide their embarrassment, inadvertently resulting in a Streisand effect situation.

2. Some dude just wants to get his wife out of a ticket, and decides to use a clever and dubious method, and the state is fed up with him wasting their time (given his previous run-ins with them).

If his measurements are spot-on, I am inclined to suggest #1 above. I don't have to be a traffic engineer to know that 3 seconds for a yellow light is a load of rubbish.
There is no indication as to how he measured, or got hold of, that information, or whether he is just plonking numbers out from thin air. In this case, the "evil government" statements don't rectify the situation, and potentially give someone an advantage when they do not deserve it.

[Richard Crowley]

There is no indication as to how he measured, or got hold of, that information, or whether he is just plonking numbers out from thin air.

The only variables here could be measured by child with a tape-measure and a stop-watch.  The rest of the parameters are widely published and used even by the same state and city in non-camera intersections.  I have lived here since the lights were installed and this issue has been discussed to death scores of times.

To paraphrase Lilly Tomlin as Ernestine the phone operator:  "We don't care. We don't have to. We're the Phone Company Government.

[X]

The only variables here could be measured by child with a tape-measure and a stop-watch.

Could be measured, doesn't necessarily mean it was. Another such example is batteriser.
Having said that, you are right here, and I'm not trying to actively discredit his method, just throwing another (somewhat likely) possibility many here haven't considered.

The rest of the parameters are widely published and used even by the same state and city in non-camera intersections.  I have lived here since the lights were installed and this issue has been discussed to death scores of times.

To paraphrase Lilly Tomlin as Ernestine the phone operator:  "We don't care. We don't have to. We're the Phone Company Government.

This is interesting. In your view, would this accurately describe the situation over there?

(still new here so I'm not sure if I should quote the whole slab of the linked text).

[Richard Crowley]

The only variables here could be measured by child with a tape-measure and a stop-watch.

Could be measured, doesn't necessarily mean it was.

They have been studied, timed, filmed, measured, calculated, ad nauseam for decades.  If Järlström didn't measure it himself, he could have referred to dozens of previous investigations.

Another such example is batteriser.

Yes, another example of common sense measurement and disclosure being rejected categorically by the perpetrator.

This is interesting. In your view, would this accurately describe the situation over there?

Sounds reasonable.  But it doesn't cover the decades of previous history.

[station240]

Here in Australia, in most jurisdictions - I'mnot allowed to replace a power outlet or the plug on a mains cable

What on earth are you talking about ?
Only Queensland has the restrictions on working on plug in appliances. Everywhere else in Australia no qualifications what so ever are needed.

The exact issue being, working on ANY >50V electrical wiring requires an electrician. Yes that includes banning qualified electronics people from replacing a simple plug or repairing mains powered anything.


In a sane world, having an actual engineering qualification should have been enough in this case. But no, they had to turn what was no doubt originally a simple non-profit to keep track of who had proper engineering skills into a huge song and dance. What's next, taking Universities to court for claiming their degrees make people into engineers ?

[Richard Crowley]

In that case, it certainly would help his case to cite these sources. I know if I was in his position and I was actually trying to point out a problem, I would want to cite as much information as I can from external sources too.

Well, considering that the city and state ignored all the previous evidence, citing it would appear to be pointless.

If the situation is as dire as you are suggesting (I have never lived in Oregon so I am not sure) then hopefully this will bring things to light. Perhaps if anything, the state was doing the right thing by essentially invoking the Streisand effect.

Dunno about "dire".  It is simply one of many chronic anomalies we deal with local government constantly. And the list grows longer with time, somewhat diluting the important of this particular annoyance.  I have zero expectation that this will bring anything to light.  It is simply another in a long line of nearly-identical events.   

[james_s]

It's not too unreasonable in the US either. You can get a permit to do the work yourself, then when you finish you have an inspector sign off and then you're good to go. Nobody bothers to get a permit for small stuff like changing receptacles or light fixtures although technically I think you're supposed to. I've done a couple of fairly major projects including replacing the service panel and nearly doubling the number of circuits in a friend's house. The inspector was impressed and asked if I was an electrician which I took as a compliment.

[Richard Crowley]

It's not too unreasonable in the US either. You can get a permit to do the work yourself, then when you finish you have an inspector sign off and then you're good to go. Nobody bothers to get a permit for small stuff like changing receptacles or light fixtures although technically I think you're supposed to. I've done a couple of fairly major projects including replacing the service panel and nearly doubling the number of circuits in a friend's house. The inspector was impressed and asked if I was an electrician which I took as a compliment.

In all the jurisdictions I am familiar with, if you are not licensed, you are not permitted to work on wiring >48V in any public building, or on any private building except the one in which you live.  The inspector could just have easily cited you with a violation if they had the notion.

[james_s]

I dunno, the inspector didn't ask if I lived there or not and I didn't volunteer that information. I did quality work, it was up to code and passed the inspection and I didn't charge money for it, did it for pizza and beer. What justification could there be for citing me in that case beyond another revenue source for the government? I think they're a little more reasonable up here in my area, at least for now. If they start citing people for this sort of thing, it will just drive it all under the radar. Easier to not get a permit at all than to risk getting in trouble. Couldn't reasonably avoid the permit for such an extensive job though, I had to upgrade the whole meter base and mast from end to end to go to the standard 200A service.

[Raj]

Well, at least in India, there's a term for guys that can do an engineer's work. That term is ' juggadi ':p
Maybe English should adopt this kind of term too.

[Raj]

As far as I know and what I think,it's not the engineers who are supposed to choose a delay for the lights, an engineer would get instruction from the municipality and civil architects, to create a street light with so and so long delays. He could give a suggestion but the ultimate decision isn't his

[Raj]

I made the comment about being legally allowed to stop.

Of course emergency stops in the middle of the road for little apparent reason might not be prudent. Especially if you're a motorcyclist, as I am (with around half a million km behind me). I keep an eye on who is behind me, and if anyone is closer than I'm comfortable with I pull over and let them past. And then if they drive slower in front of me than they did behind me (surprisingly often) I overtake them again and repeat as many times as necessary until they damn well stop being stupid.

I've been in cars that have been rear-ended twice. Both times as a passenger with the same driver.

I used to work with a guy who had a prosthetic leg due to some idiot running a red light while he was on a motorcycle. That and having been rear ended a number of times in my car has been enough to keep me from getting a motorcycle though they look like a lot of fun. Some days it just feels like the universe is trying to kill me.

Talking of red lights.

As a motorcyclist myself, I often get frustrated because my bike is too small for some traffic lights to detect. This means that I sometimes have to run a red, otherwise wait indefinitely because it will never turn green. I had to do this last night at some temporary lights. I'd been waiting there for over 5 minutes, there was nothing coming the other way and a queue of traffic was building up behind me. In the end I preceded with caution. When I got through the lights and checked my rear view mirror the other side was red too!

You could attach magnets under your bike to get detected.... Go Google it

[retrolefty]

As far as I know and what I think,it's not the engineers who are supposed to choose a delay for the lights, an engineer would get instruction from the municipality and civil architects, to create a street light with so and so long delays. He could give a suggestion but the ultimate decision isn't his

 More importantly there must (should) be a timing standard for the town, so should be codified in local law or regulation (50 different State laws, sorry that's how it works in US) such that all intersection lights use the same timings for the same posted speed roads.

 I've noticed that the timing is dynamic and on-demand for some major expressways in my area, giving timing preference in commute direction and time of day. Whoever writes the PLC code for the lights must get the timing specifications from the 'customer', it's not a software designer decision.

 This is in reality a PLC software issue not a EE decision.

[Someone]

As far as I know and what I think,it's not the engineers who are supposed to choose a delay for the lights, an engineer would get instruction from the municipality and civil architects, to create a street light with so and so long delays. He could give a suggestion but the ultimate decision isn't his

More importantly there must (should) be a timing standard for the town, so should be codified in local law or regulation (50 different State laws, sorry that's how it works in US) such that all intersection lights use the same timings for the same posted speed roads.

 I've noticed that the timing is dynamic and on-demand for some major expressways in my area, giving timing preference in commute direction and time of day. Whoever writes the PLC code for the lights must get the timing specifications from the 'customer', it's not a software designer decision.

 This is in reality a PLC software issue not a EE decision.

Its typically the work of a Civil Engineer, laying out the shapes and determining the timings. As with most large projects there is a lot of attempts in simulation before actually deploying it.

[ez24]

If someone has a B.S.C.E. degree but not a P.E.  are they an  engineer?

[Richard Crowley]

If someone has a B.S.C.E. degree but not a P.E.  are they an  engineer?

That depends on where you are and who you ask.
If you ask the state of Oregon, then no, you are not an "engineer".

[EEVblog]

IEEE Articles:
http://theinstitute.ieee.org/ieee-roundup/blogs/blog/mats-jrlstrm-i-am-an-engineer
http://theinstitute.ieee.org/ieee-roundup/blogs/blog/does-having-a-license-make-you-an-engineer

[james_s]

The timing is not hard coded into the firmware and it's not a generic PLC. Traffic control units are purpose built programmable devices and the timing is configured in the field. My uncle spent a majority of his career as a signal electrician and installed and maintained a lot of these systems and I've still got an old Honeywell controller from the late 70s in my garage that he gave me when I was a kid. I don't know who decides what the timing is supposed to be but it isn't the signal electricians who set the things up. He had some amusing stories, one of his coworkers once programmed a controller that had gotten corrupted after a power outage as happened occasionally with the older ones. He got the timing off by an order of magnitude so the amber light was only 0.3 seconds long instead of 3 seconds, somehow didn't notice until people started complaining to the city. This was of course back before red light cameras were an issue.