Man fined for criticizing govt using science, without a license

[Corporate666]

Precisely.  There has been a problem with those red-light cameras in that city since the day they were installed. People have been attempting to have a meaningful discussion with the city government for DECADES.  This incident is only one recent example of the stone wall that the city government has maintained.  And it appears to demonstrate a counter-offensive strategy on the part of the authorities.  Alas, something that has become commonplace in this state. 

The programmed timing of the traffic lights at the four intersections with cameras is DEMONSTRABLY shorter than similar intersections across the state and even in the SAME city.  One can only conclude that the intervals are shorter in order to boost revenue from the cameras.  Certainly if they had any real concern for safety, they would INCREASE the intervals rather than DECREASING them.  That is why many (most?) of us simply detour around those intersections whenever possible.  Perhaps THAT is their "safety strategy"?   

With all due respect to you, whenever I hear someone complaining about the duration of yellow lights, especially in a comparative sense, it is blindingly obvious that the person complaining is just trying to run through the light when yellow and upset at the prospect of getting caught.

News flash - yellow lights are not "quick, get through before it goes red" lights, they are supposed to give drivers an opportunity to slow down before they turn red.  There are two types of drivers in my many years of driving experience.  The type that notice a yellow light and, if they have time to decelerate at a reasonable rate of speed, will slow down and come to a stop.  The second type will accelerate and try to get through the light before it turns red - often and usually crossing the line after the light has gone red already (and another car behind them does the same).  This second driver is the one who is loud and outspoken about comparative delays between yellow lights and the vileness of red light cameras.

I don't want red light cameras around here.  We don't have them and I generally don't want them - but if we did have them, I don't think I would have ever gotten a ticket from one.  On the other hand, there are a few intersections that get busy and every...single... time the light changes, there would be 2, sometimes three cars that would get tickets.  And it would have nothing at all to do with short yellows or anything of the short - but everything to do with assholes that don't want to wait at a red light and instead try to squeeze through a yellow and don't want to take any personal responsibility for doing so and getting it wrong and the resultant ticket.

I travel a LOT in this country and I drive a LOT and I have never, ever, ever seen any intersection with a yellow that was such that a driver did not have sufficient time to recognize the yellow and slow at a perfectly reasonable rate of speed to a stop.  I challenge anyone to point out that intersection - I wager it doesn't exist.  The problem is people who want to beat the yellow but end up getting a ticket instead. 

[james_s]

Such an intersection was pointed out, that's what started this whole thread. The purpose of the yellow light is to give drivers sufficient time to make a decision then either come to a stop safely, or get through the intersection before it turns red. This duration is going to depend on a lot of factors, a large one being the posted speed limit. If intersections in one particular local are significantly shorter than average then a LOT more people are going to end up getting ticketed and that's the point. If one expects the yellow light to be a certain length and is in a borderline position where they may have to stop more abruptly than they're comfortable doing in a non-emergency, make a decision to go proceed and then get a ticket then they're going to be upset, and justifiably so. There is no reason short of revenue to make the yellow duration any shorter than necessary, it should be long enough that a driver traveling at the posted speed limit can get through the intersection without accelerating, starting from a position far enough back that a heavier or older vehicle with a longer stopping distance could come to a complete stop.

[MarkS]

The purpose of the yellow light is to give drivers sufficient time to make a decision then either come to a stop safely, or get through the intersection before it turns red.

No. The yellow light is a warning that the light is about to turn red. The delay is to give traffic already in the intersection time to clear. It is expected that once the light turns yellow, you are to stop.

[EEVblog]

News flash - yellow lights are not "quick, get through before it goes red" lights, they are supposed to give drivers an opportunity to slow down before they turn red.

[retrolefty]

The purpose of the yellow light is to give drivers sufficient time to make a decision then either come to a stop safely, or get through the intersection before it turns red.

No. The yellow light is a warning that the light is about to turn red. The delay is to give traffic already in the intersection time to clear. It is expected that once the light turns yellow, you are to stop.

 I had to go to 'traffic class' after speed limit ticket in the 90s. At the school (taught by an off duty policeman) he told us what the deal was with the yellow light and what would attract a ticket. He said as long as your vehicle 'breaks the plane' while the light is still yellow, the fact that it turns red while you are still inside the intersection does not warrant a ticket. He did suggest that speeding up to try and catch the tail end of the yellow would probably get a ticket if witnessed by the police.

 

[MarkS]

Yes. Many municipalities have a law staying something to the effect of, "Traffic in the intersection has the right to clear before other traffic can proceed." Running a yellow light, i.e., entering the intersection on yellow can result in a ticket.

[retrolefty]

Yes. Many municipalities have a law staying something to the effect of, "Traffic in the intersection has the right to clear before other traffic can proceed." Running a yellow light, i.e., entering the intersection on yellow can result in a ticket.

 Well as I stated before the policeman at my traffic class said entering the intersection during a yellow does NOT result in a ticket, even if the light changes to red while still in the intersection. He was quite adamant about this law, at least here in California.

 

[orin]

Yes. Many municipalities have a law staying something to the effect of, "Traffic in the intersection has the right to clear before other traffic can proceed." Running a yellow light, i.e., entering the intersection on yellow can result in a ticket.

 Well as I stated before the policeman at my traffic class said entering the intersection during a yellow does NOT result in a ticket, even if the light changes to red while still in the intersection. He was quite adamant about this law, at least here in California.

I agree.  It should be obvious that entering an intersection on yellow (assuming not accelerating as discussed before) cannot result in a ticket.  Otherwise, a municipality could issue a ticket if you entered an intersection one millisecond after the light changed... so where do you draw the line?  One second, two seconds?  In any sane jurisdiction, it is when the light turns red, and the delay between yellow and red is sufficient for someone with a normal reaction time to stop.

FWIW, in WA USA, last time I looked at the law, the yellow is merely a warning that the light is going to turn red.  You must stop whenever facing (whatever that means) a red light.  Of course, IANAL and you should consult a lawyer to interpret exactly what the law means... you could well be surprised.

[MarkS]

Sorry, I was replying on 4 hours sleep. I totally misread your post. In my experience, at least in the places I've lived, running a yellow light can be considered the same as running a red. It depends on the municipality.

[T3sl4co1l]

News flash - yellow lights are not "quick, get through before it goes red" lights, they are supposed to give drivers an opportunity to slow down before they turn red.  There are two types of drivers in my many years of driving experience.  The type that notice a yellow light and, if they have time to decelerate at a reasonable rate of speed, will slow down and come to a stop.  The second type will accelerate and try to get through the light before it turns red - often and usually crossing the line after the light has gone red already (and another car behind them does the same).  This second driver is the one who is loud and outspoken about comparative delays between yellow lights and the vileness of red light cameras.

I am not an outspoken or aggressive type driver, but a yellow light of unsafe and unjust duration will get noise from me.

I've been ticketed by an automatic system before.  In fact, I pulled up safely to a red light, making a complete stop, looked both ways, proceeded into the intersection and conducted a lawful right turn.

Sometimes, machines make mistakes, too.

(Naturally, the totally opaque "appeal process" didn't go anywhere, and I had to pay the $100.)

(Also, FWIW, this was a properly set up light, with yellows of reasonable duration for traffic.)

The system is usually set up illegally, or very questionably legally, so that even if you wish to challenge the ticket in court, you cannot.  It is a civil fine delivered by criminal law, or vice versa, or something bizarre like that.  The fine is levied by a company, not the state; and there is no agent of the state present to witness the act, so there is no accuser.  Because of the combined criminal and civil aspects, no civil or criminal court can conduct a proper hearing.

You'd think such bizarre constructions would default to no charge.  You'd be correct: but only after paying the $200+ of court fees to have a judge see it and decide (on a case-by-case basis, never escalating to a higher level that would achieve real change) that your ticket is void.  The municipality still wins.

I travel a LOT in this country and I drive a LOT and I have never, ever, ever seen any intersection with a yellow that was such that a driver did not have sufficient time to recognize the yellow and slow at a perfectly reasonable rate of speed to a stop.  I challenge anyone to point out that intersection - I wager it doesn't exist.  The problem is people who want to beat the yellow but end up getting a ticket instead.

Just because you haven't driven through one, doesn't mean they don't exist.  That just means you haven't seen them.  Please check your selection bias before you generalize.  I haven't seen them either, personally, but I know better than to boldly claim they don't exist.

The OP provides such an example where illegal yellows are used to generate revenue!

Tim

[4CX35000]

If someone has a B.S.C.E. degree but not a P.E.  are they an  engineer?

That depends on where you are and who you ask.
If you ask the state of Oregon, then no, you are not an "engineer".

Credential waving tends to not go far when it comes to accepting responsibility for bad decisions which result in something bad happening. Strangely at that stage these people tend to go very quiet and say nothing; or back each other up in the hope time, money, early retirement or new employment can exclude them from blame.

Thankfully the term Chartered Engineer here in the UK does not stand for much in a typical engineering business and I'm not convinced it means much in government circles. In my experience of engineering it comes down to three choices. If your good at your job then you will succeed or at least keep your job, and if your bad then you walk. The third choice tends to involve nepotism which in every case I have seen has resulted in a disastrous decisions being made and the wrong individual being blamed for a decision they had little control over.

[NiHaoMike]

I am not an outspoken or aggressive type driver, but a yellow light of unsafe and unjust duration will get noise from me.

I've been ticketed by an automatic system before.  In fact, I pulled up safely to a red light, making a complete stop, looked both ways, proceeded into the intersection and conducted a lawful right turn.

Sometimes, machines make mistakes, too.

(Naturally, the totally opaque "appeal process" didn't go anywhere, and I had to pay the $100.)

(Also, FWIW, this was a properly set up light, with yellows of reasonable duration for traffic.)

The system is usually set up illegally, or very questionably legally, so that even if you wish to challenge the ticket in court, you cannot.  It is a civil fine delivered by criminal law, or vice versa, or something bizarre like that.  The fine is levied by a company, not the state; and there is no agent of the state present to witness the act, so there is no accuser.  Because of the combined criminal and civil aspects, no civil or criminal court can conduct a proper hearing.

You'd think such bizarre constructions would default to no charge.  You'd be correct: but only after paying the $200+ of court fees to have a judge see it and decide (on a case-by-case basis, never escalating to a higher level that would achieve real change) that your ticket is void.  The municipality still wins.

What enforcement do they have? I heard that in some places, you can simply refuse to pay and they can't do anything about it.

[T3sl4co1l]

What enforcement do they have? I heard that in some places, you can simply refuse to pay and they can't do anything about it.

That would be handy.  I didn't see an obvious loophole in my case, though.

Tim

[ez24]

Just because you haven't driven through one, doesn't mean they don't exist.  That just means you haven't seen them.  Please check your selection bias before you generalize.  I haven't seen them either, personally, but I know better than to boldly claim they don't exist.

I recently entered an intersection on a green light and it turned yellow then immediately red (less than a second on yellow).  At the other end was a railroad crossing and the bars came down before I could get through the intersection.  It was the train that caused the short yellow light.  I was trapped in the intersection and was lucky the cross traffic was  light.   I had a dash cam and got the whole thing on video.  I sent the video to the train company and they said they would look at it.  But I have not been back to the intersection but the whole thing was a big surprise.  I am sure if there had been an accident, I would have been blamed for running a light or entering on a yellow.

[Richard Crowley]

I travel a LOT in this country and I drive a LOT and I have never, ever, ever seen any intersection with a yellow that was such that a driver did not have sufficient time to recognize the yellow and slow at a perfectly reasonable rate of speed to a stop.  I challenge anyone to point out that intersection - I wager it doesn't exist.  The problem is people who want to beat the yellow but end up getting a ticket instead.

• SW Beaverton Hillsdale Highway at SW Griffith Drive
• SW Walker Road at SW Cedar Hills Boulevard
• SW Scholls Ferry Road at SW Hall Boulevard
• SW Allen Boulevard at SW Lombard Avenue

Ref: http://www.beavertonpolice.org/204/Photo-Enforcement

These are the intersections which are the subject of this thread.  All of them have been measured to have well shorter than "nominal" yellow-light periods.  Where "nominal" is based on the dimensions of the intersection, the traffic volume, and the posted speed limit. That was the argument that started this whole thing. And we have literally lost count of how many times people have complained formally about this.

The government (City of Beaverton) steadfastly stonewalls any discussion.  Perhaps if they had been successful at grabbing the Tektronix campus into the City limits, they wouldn't be so money-grubbing today.  Of course, diagonally across the intersection of SW Jenkins Rd and SW Murray Blvd. is the Nike campus.  Also notably an enclave OUTSIDE the city limits.

Of course cameras are not deployed at intersections with anything but high traffic volume.  My GPS warns me of
camera intersections.  I presume that many drivers here in Washington County, Oregon simply arrange their driving routes to avoid these intersections.

It is interesting to note that the camera photos are likely emailed to the corporate co-conspirator, Redflex down in Melbourne, Australia where they are "screened by Redflex personnel to ensure that they meet city standards".  The scheme apparently works by "profit-sharing" between Redflex and the government agency.  According to http://fireredflex.com/ethics.html the company has a reputation of many sleazy practices of colluding with governments, including several convictions for bribery up to and including the CEO.  Between the automatic income stream and the sleazy reputation of the contractor, it is no wonder that the city doesn't want to discuss anything.

[Elf]

I live not too far away and used to work in Beaverton, and can confirm what Richard Crowley is saying. These cameras make the news every single year and there is no end to the number of complaints about Beaverton specifically. Not only with the red light cameras, but with speed trap vans, etc. the Beaverton police seem to be mostly revenue focused.

Next-door Portland also has red light cameras but they are not the subject of as many complaints.

[james_s]

The purpose of the yellow light is to give drivers sufficient time to make a decision then either come to a stop safely, or get through the intersection before it turns red.

No. The yellow light is a warning that the light is about to turn red. The delay is to give traffic already in the intersection time to clear. It is expected that once the light turns yellow, you are to stop.

So you're supposed to slam on your brakes the moment the light turns yellow and hope that you come to a stop before you skid into the intersection? How does that make sense versus what I said? When the light turns yellow you make a decision to either stop or proceed based on whether you can safely come to a complete stop before reaching the intersection. That's going to depend on the speed of travel, the braking abilities of the vehicle and the distance you are from the intersection and the road conditions at the time. Obviously a road with a 50MPH speed limit should have considerably longer yellow lights than a street with a 25MPH limit. Having somewhat consistent yellow intervals greatly aids in making the decision whether to stop.

[brucehoult]

Seems he's won a bit of a victory...

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/12/08/oregon_will_let_engineer_refer_to_himself_as_engineer/

[KJDS]

I have sworn an oath, just as doctors. They say "do no harm", I said "protect safety and health of people". If you did not do this, you are not entitled to call yourself an engineer, it is unethical.

When did you do that?

That would create an interesting dilemma for engineers that design firearms and military equipment.
[/quote]

I phoned an insurance company to sort out some new professional indemnity insurance and they asked me if the product could kill if it went wrong.

Once I'd explained that it was supposed to kill people when it was working they decided not to offer any cover.

Doctors in the UK no longer swear the Hyppocratic oath, and haven't for years

[IanMacdonald]

Require that the officials calling themselves 'engineers' demonstrate their ability to correctly and safely operate one of these. Any who cannot, pay Järlström $500. 

[BrianHG]

Just bumped into this YouTube video of the case:


I'm surprised how shocked the news casters at the end are that anyone who says they are an engineer require some ort of a license to do so.

[metrologist]

I'm surprised how shocked the news casters at the end are that anyone who says they are an engineer require some ort of a license to do so.

I got lost in your statement, but not all engineers need a license. In many cases, for architectural designs and such, only a PE will need to stamp the design drawings and specifications. I used to work for an engineering company that built retained earth walls. I was trained to use the cad software and how to run the calculations for the design, and would work from the state survey drawings to design the retaining structures. These would merely get stamped by the resident PE. We also did bridge abutments, post tensioned structures, even nuclear reactor domes. Specialists without even a bachelor's degree designed many aspects of these structures.

[RoGeorge]

Here, in EU/Romania, if you have an engineer degree, that means you can say you are an engineer. An engineering diploma means 8 years general school + 4 years high school + 4 or 5 years university, kindergarten years are not counted. There are some shortcuts for the Uni, you might be an engineer for some qualifications after only 3 years, but this case is rare.

I don't know about the legislation, but unless you have an engineering degree diploma, pretending that you are an engineer without a diploma will make everybody think you are a fraud or a fake, no matter how high your professional skills are. Diploma to prove at least 15 years of study is mandatory.

Later edit:
Without an Engineer Degree, you can say you are a Technician (of course, this is only if you have a Technician Degree - at least 12 years of study), or else you'll most probably be seen as an unqualified worker.

[Mr. Scram]

Here, in EU/Romania, if you have an engineer degree, that means you can say you are an engineer. An engineering diploma means 8 years general school + 4 years high school + 4 or 5 years university, kindergarten years are not counted. There are some shortcuts for the Uni, you might be an engineer for some qualifications after only 3 years, but this case is rare.

I don't know about the legislation, but unless you have an engineering degree diploma, pretending that you are an engineer without a diploma will make everybody think you are a fraud or a fake, no matter how high your professional skills are. Diploma to prove at least 15 years of study is mandatory.

Later edit:
Without an Engineer Degree, you can say you are a Technician (of course, this is only if you have a Technician Degree - at least 12 years of study), or else you'll most probably be seen as an unqualified worker.

That was the point. This guy is a fully trained engineer in Sweden and has worked in engineering related trades most of his life. Despite all this he wasn't engineering without a licence in Oregon. He was merely observing an issue, doing some calculations and reporting on his findings. This should be the right of anyone. Yet they are shooting the messenger by going after him for mentioning he is an engineer, which he is.

It seems to be successful, though. I don't think the traffic lights have been adjusted and attention has been diverted.

"Mats Järlström is, by all accounts, an engineer. He graduated from engineering school in Sweden, served as an airplane-camera mechanic in the Swedish Air Force and worked in research and development at an electronics manufacturer. For the past 20 years, he has earned a living designing and repairing audio equipment.

He is not, however, a “licensed professional” in the state of Oregon, where he put down roots in the early 1990s. So when Järlström did his own study of the timing mechanisms in the state’s red-light cameras and found them flawed, Oregon officials hit him with a $500 fine for “unlicensed practice of engineering.”"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/12/08/criticizing-red-light-cameras-is-not-a-punishable-offense-oregon-concedes/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.b3ea18efede4

[BrianHG]

I'm surprised how shocked the news casters at the end are that anyone who says they are an engineer require some ort of a license to do so.

I got lost in your statement, but not all engineers need a license.

I know this, I was talking about the anchor cast comments at this point: https://youtu.be/IIPYcCii7Sg?t=226
That they didn't have a clue.  But, I guess everyone I know in my industry use the title engineer, half of which are schooled with a completely different degree and just decided to learn electronics on their own and pursue a career in the field.