Author Topic: Man fined for criticizing govt using science, without a license  (Read 29592 times)

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Offline BrianHG

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Re: Man fined for criticizing govt using science, without a license
« Reply #200 on: September 16, 2018, 06:59:55 am »
Just bumped into this YouTube video of the case:


I'm surprised how shocked the news casters at the end are that anyone who says they are an engineer require some ort of a license to do so.
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Offline metrologist

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Re: Man fined for criticizing govt using science, without a license
« Reply #201 on: September 18, 2018, 06:10:11 am »
I'm surprised how shocked the news casters at the end are that anyone who says they are an engineer require some ort of a license to do so.

I got lost in your statement, but not all engineers need a license. In many cases, for architectural designs and such, only a PE will need to stamp the design drawings and specifications. I used to work for an engineering company that built retained earth walls. I was trained to use the cad software and how to run the calculations for the design, and would work from the state survey drawings to design the retaining structures. These would merely get stamped by the resident PE. We also did bridge abutments, post tensioned structures, even nuclear reactor domes. Specialists without even a bachelor's degree designed many aspects of these structures.
 
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Offline RoGeorge

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Re: Man fined for criticizing govt using science, without a license
« Reply #202 on: September 18, 2018, 06:30:42 am »
Here, in EU/Romania, if you have an engineer degree, that means you can say you are an engineer. An engineering diploma means 8 years general school + 4 years high school + 4 or 5 years university, kindergarten years are not counted. There are some shortcuts for the Uni, you might be an engineer for some qualifications after only 3 years, but this case is rare.

I don't know about the legislation, but unless you have an engineering degree diploma, pretending that you are an engineer without a diploma will make everybody think you are a fraud or a fake, no matter how high your professional skills are. Diploma to prove at least 15 years of study is mandatory.

Later edit:
Without an Engineer Degree, you can say you are a Technician (of course, this is only if you have a Technician Degree - at least 12 years of study), or else you'll most probably be seen as an unqualified worker.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2018, 06:39:29 am by RoGeorge »
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Man fined for criticizing govt using science, without a license
« Reply #203 on: September 18, 2018, 07:01:35 am »
Here, in EU/Romania, if you have an engineer degree, that means you can say you are an engineer. An engineering diploma means 8 years general school + 4 years high school + 4 or 5 years university, kindergarten years are not counted. There are some shortcuts for the Uni, you might be an engineer for some qualifications after only 3 years, but this case is rare.

I don't know about the legislation, but unless you have an engineering degree diploma, pretending that you are an engineer without a diploma will make everybody think you are a fraud or a fake, no matter how high your professional skills are. Diploma to prove at least 15 years of study is mandatory.

Later edit:
Without an Engineer Degree, you can say you are a Technician (of course, this is only if you have a Technician Degree - at least 12 years of study), or else you'll most probably be seen as an unqualified worker.
That was the point. This guy is a fully trained engineer in Sweden and has worked in engineering related trades most of his life. Despite all this he wasn't engineering without a licence in Oregon. He was merely observing an issue, doing some calculations and reporting on his findings. This should be the right of anyone. Yet they are shooting the messenger by going after him for mentioning he is an engineer, which he is.

It seems to be successful, though. I don't think the traffic lights have been adjusted and attention has been diverted.

"Mats Järlström is, by all accounts, an engineer. He graduated from engineering school in Sweden, served as an airplane-camera mechanic in the Swedish Air Force and worked in research and development at an electronics manufacturer. For the past 20 years, he has earned a living designing and repairing audio equipment.

He is not, however, a “licensed professional” in the state of Oregon, where he put down roots in the early 1990s. So when Järlström did his own study of the timing mechanisms in the state’s red-light cameras and found them flawed, Oregon officials hit him with a $500 fine for “unlicensed practice of engineering.”"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/12/08/criticizing-red-light-cameras-is-not-a-punishable-offense-oregon-concedes/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.b3ea18efede4
 

Offline BrianHG

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Re: Man fined for criticizing govt using science, without a license
« Reply #204 on: September 18, 2018, 07:17:54 am »
I'm surprised how shocked the news casters at the end are that anyone who says they are an engineer require some ort of a license to do so.

I got lost in your statement, but not all engineers need a license.
I know this, I was talking about the anchor cast comments at this point: https://youtu.be/IIPYcCii7Sg?t=226
That they didn't have a clue.  But, I guess everyone I know in my industry use the title engineer, half of which are schooled with a completely different degree and just decided to learn electronics on their own and pursue a career in the field.
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Offline RoGeorge

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Re: Man fined for criticizing govt using science, without a license
« Reply #205 on: September 18, 2018, 07:40:33 am »
If his Sweden diploma is not recognized in US as a valid Diploma, that is a technicality that some lawyers might cling to, just to win the case.

Anyway, I think he should go further, and I hope he will win. There is no law in US (I guess) to say that only certified engineer can question dumb timing on semaphores.

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Man fined for criticizing govt using science, without a license
« Reply #206 on: September 18, 2018, 07:53:00 am »
If his Sweden diploma is not recognized in US as a valid Diploma, that is a technicality that some lawyers might cling to, just to win the case.

Anyway, I think he should go further, and I hope he will win. There is no law in US (I guess) to say that only certified engineer can question dumb timing on semaphores.
If that were an argument foreign doctors should be obligated to call themselves medical technicians instead of doctors, including those visiting conferences. Can anyone help this dying man? No m'am, in this country I'm only a medical technician. You'll have to find someone with the proper stamps. I can't be seen medicining without my US medicining license.
 

Online CatalinaWOW

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Re: Man fined for criticizing govt using science, without a license
« Reply #207 on: September 18, 2018, 09:20:10 am »
I am actually glad he is pursuing the path he is.  He could have defended himself in any number of other ways.  He could have pointed out that he wasn't professionally an engineer since he accepted no pay for these observations.  Or that no act of engineering occurred sinnce no one acted on his information.  Those defenses would have had little broad ompact.

Where this will get interesting in the liability obsessed US is when someone is injured in an accident that results from these ambiguous situations.  Anyone who was aware of Jarlstom's calculations and did not act could be found liable to some degree.  Saying that his calculations have no professional standing would be  a weak argument since any properly trained and licensed engineer could investigate them, and should if there is any possibility of a hazardous condition.
 

Online Richard Crowley

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Re: Man fined for criticizing govt using science, without a license
« Reply #208 on: September 18, 2018, 12:08:11 pm »
The City of Beaverton let their contract with Redflex expire on 30-Jun-2018. So Redflex removed their cameras. But the city got a better deal with Condulent.  The new Condulent cameras not only catch red-light runners, but speeders as well.  What a great deal for the city.  I am sure we will see increased $afety in Beaverton.

Ref: https://nextdoor.com/agency-post/or/beaverton/beaverton-police-department/red-light-camera-replacement-88892700/
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Man fined for criticizing govt using science, without a license
« Reply #209 on: September 18, 2018, 05:01:12 pm »
What a great deal for the city.  I am sure we will see increased $afety in Beaverton.

Good news! How lucky you are!
 

Online Brumby

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Re: Man fined for criticizing govt using science, without a license
« Reply #210 on: September 18, 2018, 05:43:52 pm »
I phoned an insurance company to sort out some new professional indemnity insurance and they asked me if the product could kill if it went wrong.

Once I'd explained that it was supposed to kill people when it was working they decided not to offer any cover.

Wrong answer.  You should have said it wouldn't kill people if it goes wrong.   ;)
 
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Man fined for criticizing govt using science, without a license
« Reply #211 on: September 18, 2018, 05:55:24 pm »
Wrong answer.  You should have said it wouldn't kill people if it goes wrong.   ;)
The wonderful world of semantics and people hearing what they're expecting to hear.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Man fined for criticizing govt using science, without a license
« Reply #212 on: September 18, 2018, 06:09:03 pm »
You are legally allowed to stop at any moment, without warning. It is ENTIRELY the responsibility of any following vehicle to maintain a separation sufficient to allow them to stop if you do.
While true, that doesn't seem enough to shift all responsibility when the situation created consistently leads to more accidents. Good road design helps people behave correctly, just like good engineering stops people from making common mistakes. As a side note, many places prohibit unnecessary braking or sudden changes of direction without due indication. If you slam on the brakes for no other reason than the speed limit, both of you could be in trouble.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Man fined for criticizing govt using science, without a license
« Reply #213 on: September 18, 2018, 08:45:03 pm »
You are legally allowed to stop at any moment, without warning. It is ENTIRELY the responsibility of any following vehicle to maintain a separation sufficient to allow them to stop if you do.
While true, that doesn't seem enough to shift all responsibility when the situation created consistently leads to more accidents. Good road design helps people behave correctly, just like good engineering stops people from making common mistakes. As a side note, many places prohibit unnecessary braking or sudden changes of direction without due indication. If you slam on the brakes for no other reason than the speed limit, both of you could be in trouble.
You said many places, but isn't it pretty much universal that erratic driving means you are breaking some law or other, even if those laws are structured differently in different places?
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Man fined for criticizing govt using science, without a license
« Reply #214 on: September 18, 2018, 11:08:44 pm »
You said many places, but isn't it pretty much universal that erratic driving means you are breaking some law or other, even if those laws are structured differently in different places?
I can vouch for and prove the many places statement, but aren't sure of the same in regards to the universal statement although you're probably right. That's why I chose to go with the former. I try to be careful about my wording. :)
 

Online Richard Crowley

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Re: Man fined for criticizing govt using science, without a license
« Reply #215 on: September 22, 2018, 02:48:34 am »
This just popped up on my YouTube menu of videos to watch.  Just one of probably over 100 news reports about the Beaverton cameras....

Quote
A traffic control device should be used to provide safety. And not to generate revenue. -- Mats Jarlstrom

 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Man fined for criticizing govt using science, without a license
« Reply #216 on: September 22, 2018, 06:03:29 am »
I'd swear the orange here lasts even less than that. I'm going to have to check it out...
 

Online rstofer

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Re: Man fined for criticizing govt using science, without a license
« Reply #217 on: September 23, 2018, 03:42:20 am »
I'm surprised how shocked the news casters at the end are that anyone who says they are an engineer require some ort of a license to do so.

I got lost in your statement, but not all engineers need a license. In many cases, for architectural designs and such, only a PE will need to stamp the design drawings and specifications. I used to work for an engineering company that built retained earth walls. I was trained to use the cad software and how to run the calculations for the design, and would work from the state survey drawings to design the retaining structures. These would merely get stamped by the resident PE. We also did bridge abutments, post tensioned structures, even nuclear reactor domes. Specialists without even a bachelor's degree designed many aspects of these structures.

In California, generally, a graduate engineer goes to work for a firm having registered engineers for a 4 year internship.  Before starting, the graduate will need to pass the Engineer-In-Training exam and after 4 years and with the recommendation of at least one registered engineer, they can take the Professional Engineer exam.  Upon successful completion, they are now a Registered Professional Engineer (RPE).  There may be some variation in this process, I passed the EIT in '76 and never bothered with the PE bit.

Many 'designers' (note that their business cards won't say 'Engineer') are not RPEs nor do they need to be.  The drawings will be reviewed and stamped by the RPE and he is the one carrying Errors and Omissions Insurance.  The guy to blame is the guy that stamped the plans.

There are many fields of engineering that don't require registration - electronics is one example and there might be others.  But any field involving life safety will require registration.

 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Man fined for criticizing govt using science, without a license
« Reply #218 on: September 23, 2018, 11:44:48 pm »
You are legally allowed to stop at any moment, without warning. It is ENTIRELY the responsibility of any following vehicle to maintain a separation sufficient to allow them to stop if you do.
While true, that doesn't seem enough to shift all responsibility when the situation created consistently leads to more accidents. Good road design helps people behave correctly, just like good engineering stops people from making common mistakes. As a side note, many places prohibit unnecessary braking or sudden changes of direction without due indication. If you slam on the brakes for no other reason than the speed limit, both of you could be in trouble.
I can vouch for this as well: in the places I lived and drove, the regulations also take into consideration the reason why you made a sudden stop: an empty fuel tank or a car breakdown will give you a hefty fine, but a blown tire or broken suspension usually take investigative work as they may depend on the road conditions. Also, as soon as you stop in one of these conditions, the emergency blinkers must be turned on.

Sometimes the road design can contribute to accidents but it takes some time for the local authorities to take notice. Until about two years ago, in a highway around here a shared (pool) lane was only separated by a soft posts - idiots stuck in traffic in the main lanes would suddenly jump into the pool lane with the occasional rear end crash (car at 100km/h can't stop instantly). However, for a long time the benefit of the doubt has given the jail free card to the merging vehicle, until people used dash cams and the city placed zillions of traffic cameras.
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Offline ciccio

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Re: Man fined for criticizing govt using science, without a license
« Reply #219 on: September 24, 2018, 01:48:32 am »
I was reading this interesting thread for the first time to-day, and I think that, apart from the discussion on the duration of the yellow at the traffic light, the origin of the problem is linguistic: the English term "engineer has different meanings, from the person who designs a computer to the one who drives a train.
The discussion would not have been had it been a Lawyer, because nobody calls himself a Leawyer if he isn't...
In Italy (and in many European countries) who signs or defines himself as an Engineer (Ingegnere) must be enrolled in the Register of Engineers of his Province, and this requires:
- obtainig a five-year Univerity degree (those with the new three-year degree is a "Junior Engineer") and therefore be a Doctor in Engineering (I got a Graduation in Nuclear Engineering from the University of Bologna in 1976)
- passing the State exam for professional qualification (I did in 1979, when I was designing circuits for a living, but i could not call me an "Ingegnere")
- being accepted into the "Albo" (Register) of the Province where he resides and must, mainain this enrollment, following  training courses for about 50 hours a year.
If he is not enrolled in the Register, he can not be called (or call himself) an Ingegnere, but only a Doctor in Engineering.
Doing so he will commit a crime.
Only a Registered Engineer can sign projects of thing having to do with people safety, such as buildings, bridges, roads, etc.
You can design other things, maybe better than a graduate engineer, but you are a "Progettista", not an "Ingegnere"

Best regards
Ciccio

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Online Richard Crowley

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Re: Man fined for criticizing govt using science, without a license
« Reply #220 on: September 24, 2018, 10:32:57 am »
Remember that the reaction of the government had nothing to do with the term "engineer" or paying the fee to become a "registered engineer".  It was a tactic used by the government to divert attention away from the actual issue: the use of cameras to catch drivers in deliberately-rigged entrapment.  The fact that so many people here are hung up on the definition and use of the term "engineer" is proof that their strategy of misdirection is working exactly as they intended.   :palm:
 
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Man fined for criticizing govt using science, without a license
« Reply #221 on: September 24, 2018, 05:44:42 pm »
I was reading this interesting thread for the first time to-day, and I think that, apart from the discussion on the duration of the yellow at the traffic light, the origin of the problem is linguistic: the English term "engineer has different meanings, from the person who designs a computer to the one who drives a train.
The discussion would not have been had it been a Lawyer, because nobody calls himself a Leawyer if he isn't...
In Italy (and in many European countries) who signs or defines himself as an Engineer (Ingegnere) must be enrolled in the Register of Engineers of his Province, and this requires:
- obtainig a five-year Univerity degree (those with the new three-year degree is a "Junior Engineer") and therefore be a Doctor in Engineering (I got a Graduation in Nuclear Engineering from the University of Bologna in 1976)
- passing the State exam for professional qualification (I did in 1979, when I was designing circuits for a living, but i could not call me an "Ingegnere")
- being accepted into the "Albo" (Register) of the Province where he resides and must, mainain this enrollment, following  training courses for about 50 hours a year.
If he is not enrolled in the Register, he can not be called (or call himself) an Ingegnere, but only a Doctor in Engineering.
Doing so he will commit a crime.
Only a Registered Engineer can sign projects of thing having to do with people safety, such as buildings, bridges, roads, etc.
You can design other things, maybe better than a graduate engineer, but you are a "Progettista", not an "Ingegnere"

Best regards
That's part of the discussion, but the issue is that this guy is an engineer. He just isn't in the US or Oregon, but he is in Sweden. The same issue could apply to a laywer.
 

Offline VK3DRB

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Re: Man fined for criticizing govt using science, without a license
« Reply #222 on: September 25, 2018, 10:56:13 pm »
This just popped up on my YouTube menu of videos to watch.  Just one of probably over 100 news reports about the Beaverton cameras....

A traffic control device should be used to provide safety. And not to generate revenue. -- Mats Jarlstrom...

A very similar thing happened here at the road approaching Tullamarine Airport. It took an engineer, a member of the public, to investigate and discover the cameras had been maladjusted by the state government. Vicroads (the roads department of the Victorian state government) chose to leave it maladjusted for about 9 months after the engineer alerted them, continuing to collect extra revenue from the biggest money-spinning camera in the state. When this became public, all hell broke loose and the government was forced into in damage control, promising to return stolen money to the hapless drivers who should not have been fined.

A man named Gary Liddle was running Vicroads. He was verbally torn to shreds by a radio station 3AW program presenter as he was interviewed on air, because the organisation he was responsible for was ripping off drivers for many months after the maladjusted camera was reported. He feeble excuse was it was due to an "internal communications failure".

Media release...
https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/red-light-cameras-faulty-vicroads-admits-20121005-2734t.html

Report...
http://cameracommissioner.vic.gov.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/rscc_report_yellow_light_timing_issues.pdf
This report clearly omits the date when Gordon Bishop first reported the problem to Vicroads. Why? There was a lot of cover-ups over this debacle. The public only know part of the story.
 

Offline metrologist

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Re: Man fined for criticizing govt using science, without a license
« Reply #223 on: September 26, 2018, 06:19:58 am »
Remember that the reaction of the government had nothing to do with the term "engineer" or paying the fee to become a "registered engineer".  It was a tactic used by the government to divert attention away from the actual issue: the use of cameras to catch drivers in deliberately-rigged entrapment.  The fact that so many people here are hung up on the definition and use of the term "engineer" is proof that their strategy of misdirection is working exactly as they intended.   :palm:

Well, it shouldn't be for any American who is paying attention. You see what's happening on the big stage now and understand that, I'm sure. But regardless, you still have to play the same strategic game. I wonder if the people who levied the charges were actual lawyers claiming someone broke the law. Or can only police officers determine that now? You get my meaning.
 

Online Richard Crowley

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Re: Man fined for criticizing govt using science, without a license
« Reply #224 on: September 26, 2018, 10:41:50 am »
I wonder if the people who levied the charges were actual lawyers claiming someone broke the law. Or can only police officers determine that now?
The people evaluating the photos and sending out the violations were non-government non-law-enforcement 3-rd party contract workers half-way around the world (in Melbourne, Australia)  With the complete complicity of the City of Beaverton, Oregon, USA.
 


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