Management requests and pay grades

[cprobertson1]

I wonder if I might bother you folks for some advice.

I've worked at company-X for a while now - mainly in administration and some basic engineering tasks for CNC machines.

Occasionally I get a request to make a database or spruce up some excel sheets - pretty basic stuff - and occasionally I get asked to make some hardware (for instance one of our CNC cladding machines has a speed compensation controller that and display unit that I designed and built, and I'm currently waiting to install a second unit)

I even get asked to do some IT work from time to time, handling minor requests: I'm a jack of all trades, master of none (but frequently better than master of one )

The point is I do a lot of stuff for not a particularly great wage.


This week however I was handed a big project - disguised as a small project.

The manager who issued me with this said "can you make these excel sheets into a database with reports that customers and vendors can access" and then proceeded to add some scope creep onto it for good measure.

This database is not a simple project - there is a huge amount of data processing and reporting - and I even suspect it may need it's own server/VM due to the number of users required.

I reckon that, working full-time on it, it will take at least three months - probably more - working part-time on it (because I have other tasks to do for other people) will take 2-3x more.

Because it's a database that will deal will purchasing, funding, and cost breakdowns, there will need to a great deal of quality control in the database as well - and here is the problem.

I do NOT get a paid anywhere near enough to take on a project this large, complex and critical - and even worse, I am the single point of failure on this project - if I get hit by a truck the project stops dead in it's track (key person risk factor / bus factor / truck factor == 1 == not good  )

The question is how to deal with it!

-Do I simply tell them they aren't paying me enough to do that?
   Well that sounds pretty damned arrogant!

-How about explaining the complexity of the project and advising them to seek expert advise and getting a consultant in to discuss it with them?
   That might work, but they are going to baulk at the costs involved.
   Even worse, they might try and spin it round and make out that it's not actually complex (despite not being technologically competent)

-Find a new job
   Not enough time - I can't exactly stall the project until I get recruited somewhere
   I am technically working to find a new job anyway - but that's neither here nor there.

-Do the project anyway
   They (management) are NOT going to like how long it takes nor the problems that will be faced during production.
   I am going to be irked that I am being underpaid (and underappreciated) for carrying out the task
   There is a chance the project will fail (there's always a chance that a project will fail - which is why risk management exists) - if it does fail the blame will be aimed squarely at me rather than at the specifications provided or the task itself. The risk is greater than me than it is for them (as I'm the one having to provide the goods and services!)


Any other suggestions?

I'm tempted just to explain pretty much everything I just said to my supervisor and see what they say - but speaking to the supervisor is scary - and asking them for a >30% payrise to bring me up to the lowest end of the industry standard sounds impossible

[DenzilPenberthy]

I would suggest doing all of the first three of your suggestions.

[Neganur]

Don't ask for more pay if you think you can't do it (and don't want to either) on your own anyway :/

Do very much voice your issues to your supervisor, never be afraid to talk to a superior at work if it's relevant to the tasks assigned to you. If he ignores you, get it documented and talk to his boss. If the hierarchy works at all that is.

I don't know what country you're in (browsing in the phone here) but it is usually a very bad idea to refuse to work and things should be handled differently. You could ofc say you don't know a thing about databases (what is your job title and what does your work contract say about the type of work you are supposed to do?).

[tszaboo]

Maybe they are vetting you with the project to see how well you handle stress, organisation or other management qualities. Preparing you for a promotion.

At one point, I had to tell management, that I'm not going to do a certain job. It using me as an "emergency production technician". you know, the one, which requires you to use a screwdriver, not your brain. I told them, this is not what I was hired for, and this is not the job I am happy with.
- But everyone does it, it is a bad situation etc..
- Well, I'm not everyone.
After this, task allocation was carefully made, so I did not get those kind of jobs. Dont tell them, that you are not getting payed for something.

[DimitriP]

The manager who issued me with this said "can you make these excel sheets into a database with reports that customers and vendors can access" and then proceeded to add some scope creep onto it for good measure.

Just ask the a^&%ole to write it up, like it was a real project.
"make these sheets accessible by customers and vendors" is not a specification, it's a landmine.

 

[cprobertson1]

Just ask the a^&%ole to write it up, like it was a real project.
"make these sheets accessible by customers and vendors" is not a specification, it's a landmine.

Oh, never mind a landmine - they're quick and easy - this is more of a fougasse (not to be confused with bread of the same name)

Maybe they are vetting you with the project to see how well you handle stress, organisation or other management qualities. Preparing you for a promotion.

At one point, I had to tell management, that I'm not going to do a certain job. It using me as an "emergency production technician". you know, the one, which requires you to use a screwdriver, not your brain. I told them, this is not what I was hired for, and this is not the job I am happy with.
- But everyone does it, it is a bad situation etc..
- Well, I'm not everyone.
After this, task allocation was carefully made, so I did not get those kind of jobs. Dont tell them, that you are not getting payed for something.

I wouldn't be so certain about any sort of promotion - for one thing he isn't actually my boss (but he has bypassed my supervisor... and his supervisor... - which they're usually happy with as long as I let them know (and as long as its not a 3-month project)

It's more likely I've just been lumped with the go-to-man title since I'm "good with computers" - a dangerous title to have

Don't ask for more pay if you think you can't do it (and don't want to either) on your own anyway :/

Do very much voice your issues to your supervisor, never be afraid to talk to a superior at work if it's relevant to the tasks assigned to you. If he ignores you, get it documented and talk to his boss. If the hierarchy works at all that is.

I don't know what country you're in (browsing in the phone here) but it is usually a very bad idea to refuse to work and things should be handled differently. You could ofc say you don't know a thing about databases (what is your job title and what does your work contract say about the type of work you are supposed to do?).

It's not quite that I don't think I can do it - I can definitely deliver something - the question is the length of time it will take me to come up with it and the consequences if it doesn't work (especially if it involves our vendors and our customers - a potent mix guaranteed to be blamed on me if anything whatsoever goes wrong)

My contract is.... I don't know, I got transferred so many times that I'm not sure the original contract applies... actually I had better look into that!

Officially I'm a "technical administrator" whatever on earth that means (working in Scotland/UK). I officially prepare welding documentation and I'm kinda-sorta a trainee weld engineer. In reality I do whatever most people ask me to do as long as it doesn't take too long.

I would suggest doing all of the first three of your suggestions.

Very, very tempting



I've currently escalated it a little (to my supervisor and his supervisor (which control different aspects of the same area - so they're almost on the same level as each other - they more or less work in concert)): after explaining the time frame (oh you should have seen there faces!) and my required database architecture they advised that I explain to the requesting manager that I can do it but he needs to be aware that it may take a while - if he needs it done quickly I'm afraid I am not the guy to ask!

Not a fun time though! I'm glad it's the weekend - I've been worrying about this for a few days now and only finally decided to seek advice (though I had mentioned it to my supervisor when the request came through - I've been compiling data and getting a project plan together (which is how I know this is going to be a big project xD))

Thanks for all the help folks! I'll let you know how (if) it resolves

[tggzzz]

I wouldn't be so certain about any sort of promotion - for one thing he isn't actually my boss (but he has bypassed my supervisor... and his supervisor... - which they're usually happy with as long as I let them know (and as long as its not a 3-month project)

That's a red flag.

It's not quite that I don't think I can do it - I can definitely deliver something - the question is the length of time it will take me to come up with it and the consequences if it doesn't work (especially if it involves our vendors and our customers - a potent mix guaranteed to be blamed on me if anything whatsoever goes wrong)

That's an orange flag.

I've currently escalated it a little (to my supervisor and his supervisor (which control different aspects of the same area - so they're almost on the same level as each other - they more or less work in concert)): after explaining the time frame (oh you should have seen there faces!) and my required database architecture they advised that I explain to the requesting manager that I can do it but he needs to be aware that it may take a while - if he needs it done quickly I'm afraid I am not the guy to ask!

Not a fun time though! I'm glad it's the weekend - I've been worrying about this for a few days now and only finally decided to seek advice (though I had mentioned it to my supervisor when the request came through - I've been compiling data and getting a project plan together (which is how I know this is going to be a big project xD))

Thanks for all the help folks! I'll let you know how (if) it resolves

It comes across as the bloke requesting the work wants you to do something that will make him look good (if it works), and costs him nothing (especially if it fails). You are very sensible to punt the decision upwards.

OTOH, it could be a real feather in your cap, a door-opener, and a passport to Greater Things.

You would also be very sensible to get a written statement of

• success/failure criteria
• a must have / should have / like to have categorisation of priorities
• a staged approach, probably a short feasibility study to determine costs/timescales, alternative approaches, risks/mitigations, followed by the real work
• a statement of what you require (and from whom) in order to be able to proceed at each stage

[brucehoult]

The pay grade question is orthogonal to the main issue, and thus irrelevant. Or course if they're not paying you enough (and we don't know how much) then you might want to do something about that. Not that it's easy.

However the main issue *is* easy.

Your chain of command is paying you to do certain work. Someone else is asking you to do something else. That's simple. You tell your manager what you've been asked to do, tell how long it will take (even pad it a bit), and ask him if *he* wants you to do that. Bearing in mind of course that you can't do two things at one time.

[rstofer]

They pay you, they own you.  Until you quit for a better job.

So, sit down, strap in and get with it!

They are paying you to get an education using live data in a real application.  How much do you suppose that application experience will be worth in the marketplace?  It's a goldmine!  Spreadsheets, code behind forms, database, web front-end, potential server setup.  You have just been handed the keys to the kingdom and you're bitching about it.

Take the project for what it is!  The challenge and opportunity of a career.  Work as many hours as you can.  Put it more effort than you believe is possible.  Night and day - live that project.  Buy and read books, research the web, do whatever it takes!  It is your way forward!

At some point you will need to consider that the company that trains you won't pay you.  You will want to change jobs.  But maybe you can still do some consultancy on your old project.

[brucehoult]

They are paying you to get an education using live data in a real application.  How much do you suppose that application experience will be worth in the marketplace?  It's a goldmine!  Spreadsheets, code behind forms, database, web front-end, potential server setup.  You have just been handed the keys to the kingdom and you're bitching about it.

I certainly agree with this. There is *nothing* as good as being paid to learn on the job, instead of doing it in your free time or paying to go to a course.

As long as your direct manager is happy that you spend your time on that then go for it!

I disagree about working unpaid overtime though. That's a sucker's game.

[rstofer]

They are paying you to get an education using live data in a real application.  How much do you suppose that application experience will be worth in the marketplace?  It's a goldmine!  Spreadsheets, code behind forms, database, web front-end, potential server setup.  You have just been handed the keys to the kingdom and you're bitching about it.

I certainly agree with this. There is *nothing* as good as being paid to learn on the job, instead of doing it in your free time or paying to go to a course.

As long as your direct manager is happy that you spend your time on that then go for it!

I disagree about working unpaid overtime though. That's a sucker's game.

We don't know about the qualifications of the OP.  Degreed engineer or CS major?  Some level of qualifying education?  Or is this On The Job Training?

The point is, spending 6 years in college to get the paper required to get a job doing a project like this is also unpaid.  Education is always an investment and it is always costly in terms of time and money.

There's a reason for my views:  I was working as a Journeyman Electrician at an aerospace company.  When it was my turn to get laid off, they put me on salary working as a low level analyst.  My boss wanted to computerize the reporting functions in a day (very early '70s) when computers were rare and programmers moreso.  I scoured the plant and found a computer, I ran into a fellow who taught me to code in Fortran and I grabbed onto the task of computerizing reporting.  I lived that job while going to college at night.  Having unlimited access to a computer was fairly unique for EE students.  Pretty cool stuff!

So, I graduated, moved on and made a decent living all through my career.  I have been comfortably retired for 13 years and have no intention of ever working again.  Nor will I need to!

Sure, I could have played hardball with the hours.  Somehow, I don't think the results would have been the same.

Grab the opportunity and run with it!

[rstofer]

And remember Niklaus Wirth's "stepwise refinement".  Get something working across the entire range of the application.  Just a 'proof of concept' before fleshing out the boring details.  Hook a spreadsheet to a database, connect up a web server and serve data from the database.  Just get the big chunks working.  Then worry about details.

The details are boring, it's the big pieces that are the learning experience.  That's what you will eventually sell.

Security WILL become an issue.  It's probably worth the effort to study up on how to secure the web server, database and networking.  User management (permissions based on credentials) will be a huge factor.

[IanB]

I'm tempted just to explain pretty much everything I just said to my supervisor and see what they say - but speaking to the supervisor is scary - and asking them for a >30% payrise to bring me up to the lowest end of the industry standard sounds impossible

Never be shy about speaking to your supervisor. Your supervisor wants you to be as effective as possible, and wants from you the best possible advice and information. Both of these things help your supervisor to be more effective, which is good for them.

So the key thing is to be direct and open about the scope and complexity of what you are being asked to do. Explain about the requirements, the effort, the time, the cost, the extra people who may need to be involved. Lay it all out clearly as best as you can. Then ask your supervisor for advice about whether he wants you to do this project. If the answer is yes, then ask for the necessary support to be successful.

The time to bring up pay is not right at the beginning, but a little way down the line, if the project is going well. You can say that you have demonstrated an ability to take on more responsibility and do more valuable work. Therefore you are worth more money.

[DimitriP]

You can say that you have demonstrated an ability to take on more responsibility and do more valuable work. Therefore you are worth more money.

Although you are absolutely correct,  sometimes/most of the time /usually the employer that you demonstrated your abilities to and the one that will pay you more money because of it, are not the same.

"You've got to know when to hold 'em
Know when to fold 'em
Know when to walk away
And know when to run"

[cprobertson1]

All very good points folks! I won't bother quoting each one in turn and responding as my reply would be huge

@IanB - That should definitely be the case! The management and the general environment isn't the friendliest I've seen though - which discourages open communication to some extent - plus there's the beloved minefield of office politics to factor in (my old supervisor was great - but he didn't play the political game and paid for it dearly =/) - you're right though - this is a definitely a good chance to get the communication channels opened up a bit!

@rstofer - But I wan't to become stinking rich by sitting back and not doing anything, damnit! Landed entitlement aside, usually I'm all for learning new things - getting paid for it's a bonus! The problem in this instance is that there is a high risk factor both for myself and the manager asking the question - partly because the manager hasn't realised just how big a project this is (I believe they think it's like the other small databases with 2-3 users I've made in access in the past, which took 1-2 weeks each and weren't too fancy). This is further compounded by my being in a bit of a holding pattern these past few years after finishing up with uni: I've a lot of pathways sitting there for me - but I'm not 100% sure I wan't a career in this particular field though (ON the other hand, it's still a useful little feather in my cap!)

@bruceholt - very good point, pay grade is tangential to the problem - I think what's happened is that I've arbitrarily lumped them together. As I mentioned, since leaving uni I've not really done much - I've got a BSci in Biochemistry, specialising in immunology, I've got experience in database design, I'm a decent programmer in several languages, I've a working knowledge of designing and building electronics (and even run a small repair/design service) but can't claim my knowledge is more than mediocre, and I've got experience in a huge amount of office admin-related gumph: so my options are very much open - it's just that I didn't have the best of times at university and my health suffered, so I sat in a holding pattern for a few years - and I'm starting to feel that it's time to move on - the pay issue has just been the pebble that started the rockslide so to speak! Part of the pay issue is that I was in the role of storeperson for the CNC machine shop when I first joined - and since being moved over to the engineering and fabrication department, nothing changed. In fact my wage hasn't changed in the last 5 years.

@tggzzz - Ah, there many red flags where I work I'm afraid - most of them raised as a result of office politics As you said though - golden opportunity if I want to go down that path.

@DimitriP - Wise words good sire!


All in all - it would seem that change is on the horizon for better or for worse! A change in career or a change in perspective - who knows In the meantime, I've sent off an email to the effect of "if you can afford the wait, then it can be done - but if it needs done quickly I'm afraid you'll have to look elsewhere" and will hear back on monday: though I am o a little worried that any problems that crop up will automatically be blamed on me because the problem was highlighted by my database (which leads to a culture of covering one's back all the time which is not a good atmosphere to foster!)

To repeat myself - it is a time for change - there are interesting times ahead! I'll keep y'all posted I'm sure

Thanks for all the advice everybody! It's been very much appreciated

[boffin]

Get a quote from an outside consulting company, and present it along with your proposal of how long it will take, along with $$$.  Make sure you include training costs for technologies you might not be 100% familiar with.

[IanB]

I was in the role of storeperson for the CNC machine shop when I first joined - and since being moved over to the engineering and fabrication department, nothing changed. In fact my wage hasn't changed in the last 5 years.

This isn't good. It sounds like you should already be having the conversation about how you are doing more valuable work and that your pay should be adjusted accordingly. You might also try to gather some market data showing salaries for comparable jobs as evidence that you are being underpaid. Don't threaten to resign, but do leave the unspoken implication that you might be able to earn more elsewhere. If your employer is sensible they will take note of that.

[cprobertson1]

I was in the role of storeperson for the CNC machine shop when I first joined - and since being moved over to the engineering and fabrication department, nothing changed. In fact my wage hasn't changed in the last 5 years.

This isn't good. It sounds like you should already be having the conversation about how you are doing more valuable work and that your pay should be adjusted accordingly. You might also try to gather some market data showing salaries for comparable jobs as evidence that you are being underpaid. Don't threaten to resign, but do leave the unspoken implication that you might be able to earn more elsewhere. If your employer is sensible they will take note of that.

See, part of the problem (this is a very manifold situation the more I think about it!) is that we are primarily an oilfield services company (making tools and whatnot for various oilfield services) - with the oil crisis came a downturn and we're still recovering from the layoffs back in 2015 (which was why I didn't demand a payrise when I moved to engineering shortly afterwards).

In addition to that the problem is comparing my position (which is a bit of hodgepodge of several other positions) to similar outside positions: if you pick any one of my skillsets and compare them to a trainee position in that particular skill then the wage difference is usually 70% of the lowest earners in that skillset - and usually about 2/3 of the average wage for similar training positions.

I don't feel that's an entirely fair comparison though - as the people in those training positions generally have degrees backing them up.

I'm going to stay on the issue - something good will come out of it even if it takes some patience!

[rstofer]

Free hint:  Research LAMP server

http://searchenterpriselinux.techtarget.com/definition/LAMP

One download, a spare machine and you have everything you need to get started.

You can still use Access or Excel on the desktop to connect to the MySql database:

https://dev.mysql.com/doc/connector-odbc/en/connector-odbc-examples-tools-with-access-linked-tables.html
https://www.mysql.com/why-mysql/windows/excel/

All of this has been done before and most of it is standardized.  Alternatives abound:

https://www.microsoft.com/web/platform/tools.aspx

[dimkasta]

I would raise a different flag.

Exposing client/vendor information to the internet is a security issue and could touch private information

Before continuing with it, make sure that you guys get input from your information security and/or legal department.
You might have to change your architecture or requirements, or even scrap the thing because the dangers or requirements could be too much for something that clearly was never thoroughly planned or analyzed in a cost/benefit/risk level

[IanB]

I don't feel that's an entirely fair comparison though - as the people in those training positions generally have degrees backing them up.

But you said you have a degree, did you not?

[Zero999]

The point is, spending 6 years in college to get the paper required to get a job doing a project like this is also unpaid.  Education is always an investment and it is always costly in terms of time and money.

I take your point but at college you get a properly recognised qualification, in return for your time and money. He may be getting paid to learn but he won't get anything else to show for it, to get a pay rise. If he goes to another employer, he'd have a hard time competing over others who are more qualified.

I don't feel that's an entirely fair comparison though - as the people in those training positions generally have degrees backing them up.

But you said you have a degree, did you not?

No, I don't remember the original poster saying that he had a degree. Going by his posts in this thread, I suspect it's highly likely he's just been trained on the job, with few formal qualifications related to the job but I could be wrong.

I was in the role of storeperson for the CNC machine shop when I first joined - and since being moved over to the engineering and fabrication department, nothing changed. In fact my wage hasn't changed in the last 5 years.

This isn't good. It sounds like you should already be having the conversation about how you are doing more valuable work and that your pay should be adjusted accordingly. You might also try to gather some market data showing salaries for comparable jobs as evidence that you are being underpaid. Don't threaten to resign, but do leave the unspoken implication that you might be able to earn more elsewhere. If your employer is sensible they will take note of that.

See, part of the problem (this is a very manifold situation the more I think about it!) is that we are primarily an oilfield services company (making tools and whatnot for various oilfield services) - with the oil crisis came a downturn and we're still recovering from the layoffs back in 2015 (which was why I didn't demand a payrise when I moved to engineering shortly afterwards).

In addition to that the problem is comparing my position (which is a bit of hodgepodge of several other positions) to similar outside positions: if you pick any one of my skillsets and compare them to a trainee position in that particular skill then the wage difference is usually 70% of the lowest earners in that skillset - and usually about 2/3 of the average wage for similar training positions.

I don't feel that's an entirely fair comparison though - as the people in those training positions generally have degrees backing them up.

I'm going to stay on the issue - something good will come out of it even if it takes some patience!

If you've not got any formal qualifications to back up what you're doing, then perhaps you should raise that with your supervisor?

Perhaps then you could study part time and use the database as the college project too?

[IanB]

I don't feel that's an entirely fair comparison though - as the people in those training positions generally have degrees backing them up.

But you said you have a degree, did you not?

No, I don't remember the original poster saying that he had a degree. Going by his posts in this thread, I suspect it's highly likely he's just been trained on the job, with few formal qualifications related to the job but I could be wrong.

I'm referring to this comment:

I've got a BSci in Biochemistry, specialising in immunology, I've got experience in database design, I'm a decent programmer in several languages, I've a working knowledge of designing and building electronics (and even run a small repair/design service)...

I think the OP is selling himself short.

[rstofer]

I've got a BSci in Biochemistry, specialising in immunology, I've got experience in database design, I'm a decent programmer in several languages, I've a working knowledge of designing and building electronics (and even run a small repair/design service)...

I think the OP is selling himself short.

I do too!  A degree is a degree and beyond that it all comes from training.  Sure, CS majors are probably better positioned but they need on-the-job training as well.

Many years ago, I ran across a guy who designed ICs.  His degree was in Astrophysics.  Not everybody works in their major.

I think I would be hesitant to expose a system to the Internet but for an in-house application, why not?

[Zero999]

I don't feel that's an entirely fair comparison though - as the people in those training positions generally have degrees backing them up.

But you said you have a degree, did you not?

No, I don't remember the original poster saying that he had a degree. Going by his posts in this thread, I suspect it's highly likely he's just been trained on the job, with few formal qualifications related to the job but I could be wrong.

I'm referring to this comment:

I've got a BSci in Biochemistry, specialising in immunology, I've got experience in database design, I'm a decent programmer in several languages, I've a working knowledge of designing and building electronics (and even run a small repair/design service)...

I think the OP is selling himself short.

Oh, I missed that!

Still if it isn't relevant to the job, it's of limited use. Don't get me wrong, the degree (whatever it is, within reason) proves intelligence and the motivation to learn but I question whether HR departments get that.  He should either look for another job, better suited to his qualification or study to get the job he wants.