Microsoft to intentionally brick Windows 7/8 Update on Kaby Lake & Ryzen Systems

[MarkS]

For what?

It's been a few months since I started up my Ubuntu distro, so I don't remember the specifics (my short term memory is failing; specifics are hard more than a few days out unless I had reason to store it in long term memory). What I do remember is that there was no escaping the console.

So how did you know you needed console access?

No instructions on the console commands or how to use them. If console access was required by a program/process/whatever, instructions may have been given for that specific case, but if I couldn't do something with the GUI and needed to go to the console, I was left to search Google with search terms that do not exist in my head. A frustrating proposition, I can assure you! I have yet to see an instance of console access that couldn't be accomplished if the developer of the app/whatever had just written a GUI-based element to handle it. Again, you can go for years on Windows and not even know the console exists. You're hit with it during Linux installation and it doesn't end after that. Linux needs to get past this or there will never be wide adoption among home PC users.

[Monkeh]

For what?

It's been a few months since I started up my Ubuntu distro, so I don't remember the specifics (my short term memory is failing; specifics are hard more than a few days out unless I had reason to store it in long term memory). What I do remember is that there was no escaping the console.

So how did you know you needed console access?

No instructions on the console commands or how to use them. If console access was required by a program/process/whatever, instructions may have been given for that specific case, but if I couldn't do something with the GUI and needed to go to the console, I was left to search Google with search terms that do not exist in my head. A frustrating proposition, I can assure you! I have yet to see an instance of console access that couldn't be accomplished if the developer of the app/whatever had just written a GUI-based element to handle it. Again, you can go for years on Windows and not even know the console exists. You're hit with it during Linux installation and it doesn't end after that. Linux needs to get past this or there will never be wide adoption among home PC users.

See, I can install Ubuntu on any one of these machines and never see a console - so I have no idea what you're somehow bumping into. Shit, I can probably install something on the Itanium I use as an anchor without seeing a console. As far as documentation, there's LOADS of it, frankly a lot of it is easier to deal with than Windows documentation.

As far as getting past using the console (.. which again, I wouldn't be using anyway with the likes of Ubuntu.. thankfully, I don't use Ubuntu.) and gaining more GUI elements to gain home user adoption: Please, no. We're already being crippled by simplifications at a preposterous rate, please no fucking more of it. Send them to Apple.

[Karel]

Time to switch to Linux and forget windows. Once you get used to Linux, you can do more stuff in less time!

When you can do 100% of the necessary activities required for running a computer without even knowing that a thing called a "console" exists, as you can with Windows, I'll agree. Until then, Linux is a toy of power users and Windows haters.

Actually, the number of times you need a console in Linux is less than the number of times you need to edit the registry in windows...
Windows is a toy for gamers and Linux/Mac haters.

[MarkS]

As far as getting past using the console (.. which again, I wouldn't with the likes of Ubuntu.. thankfully, I don't use Ubuntu.) and gaining more GUI elements to gain home user adoption: Please, no. We're already being crippled by simplifications at a preposterous rate, please no fucking more of it. Send them to Apple.

That may be fine for you and 90+% of Linux users, but for those of us still using OSX/Windows, it will never pass muster. The console MUST go away before most casual users will make the switch. Linux is still too steeply based in the UNIX-style text commands for those that grew up using a GUI. My first computer was a Macintosh 512KE back in 1984. I only dabbled in DOS and found it frustrating. I have never relied on a text based OS for day to day work and I'd dare say that more than 90% of computer users haven't either. I may not be able to site specific cases for my own Linux use, but tomorrow, count each time you jump to the console and report back with that number. Each time you access the console, ask yourself if what you're doing can be done sans console. If it cannot, report that number as well. I haven't touched a Windows console in weeks; the last time was to compile wxWidgets.

[Karel]

Time to switch to Linux and forget windows. Once you get used to Linux, you can do more stuff in less time!

When you can do 100% of the necessary activities required for running a computer without even knowing that a thing called a "console" exists, as you can with Windows, I'll agree. Until then, Linux is a toy of power users and Windows haters.

Actually, if you include the smartphone and embedded systems market, one could argue Linux has already won.  Android is built on Linux. That router you're using is probably running Linux. The list of smart devices running Linux is extensive.

Linux is the most used operating system in the world and still growing. The only exception where Linux isn't king is the desktop.

Personally, I like it that way. Let the masses use something else and act like a lightning rod for virusses and malware.

[bitwelder]

When you can do 100% of the necessary activities required for running a computer without even knowing that a thing called a "console" exists, as you can with Windows, I'll agree. Until then, Linux is a toy of power users and Windows haters.

When will be possible to *efficiently* manage a fleet of Windows domain computers (including changing settings that Microsoft doesn't publicise too much) without using Powershell, you might have a point.

[Monkeh]

I may not be able to site specific cases for my own Linux use, but tomorrow, count each time you jump to the console and report back with that number. Each time you access the console, ask yourself if what you're doing can be done sans console. If it cannot, report that number as well. I haven't touched a Windows console in weeks; the last time was to compile wxWidgets.

Err, see, that's not going to work out how you think.

My text editor is.. a text editor. It lives in a CLI. I work on headless servers, I work on embedded hardware, and quite frankly a properly used CLI is faster than clicking in Windows. So no, I'm not going to count how many minutes I use my computer, and I'm not going to ask myself if I could do it more slowly and awkwardly. Even simple file management is faster with an appropriately used CLI, let alone navigating slow menu systems.

If you use Ubuntu, getting into a console should be a very rare occurance, just like Windows. You can do most everything that same slow, dragging way. If you are encountering the need to use the console with Ubuntu, you are probably trying to do something out of the ordinary.

Linux is still too steeply based in the UNIX-style text commands for those that grew up using a GUI. My first computer was a Macintosh 512KE back in 1984. I only dabbled in DOS and found it frustrating. I have never relied on a text based OS for day to day work

I grew up using a GUI - really started on a Performa 6200CD in the mid 90s. I dabbled in DOS and found that the 70s were, indeed, the 70s, and that DOS is not comparable to modern computers.

[SeanB]

I use a console to do some little things, most common is a script to do a particular podcast, as using wget with it is a lot easier than navigating the website to get to the download link for it, plus the filenames follow a convention that makes the single line a much faster option than a click through to the pages.

Edit, just started the single thing in BASH history, and literally 7 key presses to do so. Using the website I would have to wait till tomorrow for them to update there.

[TerraHertz]

The only "obviously learned absolutely nothing" I see, is the people who still think Microsoft is their friend (or ever was) and all the 'little flaws' of MS Windows are just mistakes due to some kind of misunderstanding between Marketting and Software-dev.

No. Microsoft is your mortal enemy. Bill Gates fully supports the objectives of the Global Cull and its various precursors such as Globalism, one world government, re-wilding, Agenda 21, pushing AGW as justification for major de-industrialization, forcing mass immigration of savages and trained undercover armies of occupation to destroy social cohesion, , dumbing down the people via vaccines that cause auto-immune attacks on the brain in childhood, and most especially, gradually removing the ability to actually use computers for anything productive, by turning the OS into a cross between spyware, app-rental hub, pay-per-view entertainment/conditioning, and advertising channel.

Microsoft's strategy has always been to push further than they know people will stand for, then backslide a little once MS has evaluated the level of public outrage. Then next time they push they will go 'too far' again, wait, backslide a little... Very few people recognize the continual incremental progress MS achieves towards their goal. Which is us, cooked lobsters in a pot of boiling water. No access to independent, private and secure computing systems, in this case.

It's NOT about economics. They don't care. The Rothschilds, Soros, Gates, etc, are already rich enough to not give a f*ck about more money. They have a dream, and that's all they pursue. It's a world with about 500 to 700 million total population, with them as absolute rulers in a totalitarian single world government consisting only of the Elites. Everything else you hear them say is misdirection, to keep the gullible fools sitting in the warming pot.

[R005T3r]

Time to switch to Linux and forget windows. Once you get used to Linux, you can do more stuff in less time!

When you can do 100% of the necessary activities required for running a computer without even knowing that a thing called a "console" exists, as you can with Windows, I'll agree. Until then, Linux is a toy of power users and Windows haters.

Actually, if you include the smartphone and embedded systems market, one could argue Linux has already won.  Android is built on Linux. That router you're using is probably running Linux. The list of smart devices running Linux is extensive.

In my opinion android sucks, and even if it's linux, shouldn't be considered as equal as other distributions:  they have done a terrible mess with it.
Not to mention all the security issues because they are laughable, and I'm not talking about goverment/law enforcement spying on you, I'm talking about anyone who has a little knowledge about how to install an application on it can install a spyware into your phone bypassing everything, and it can be done remotely! In any linux distribution these things won't happen!
Also, the way it handles the apps it's a terrible mess: when ever it boots up it has to load all the apps that are encapsulated in disks. Ridiculously slow and total nonsense!
but what brother me most is that there's Java everywhere... As a result low end phones model are not usable at all and you are forced to spend a ton of money into something that after 1 month is already old and split it's value in half...
 

[Karel]

In my opinion android sucks, and even if it's linux, shouldn't be considered as equal as other distributions:  they have done a terrible mess with it.

I agree. Android is a castrated form of Linux. Google took a vanilla kernel and ripped of most of the goodies.
At the same time, it shows again the power of Linux, the ability to tailor it to your needs.
This, combined with the GPL license, has made Linux to what it is, the most succesfull OS.

[bitwelder]

I agree. Android is a castrated form of Linux. Google took a vanilla kernel and ripped of most of the goodies.

... and put a Java-like framework on top of it.

[cheeseit]

I like Microsoft, Windows and my computers with Windows 10 that I got for free.

[madires]

For free? http://www.pcworld.com/article/3178683/windows/microsoft-ads-invade-windows-10s-file-explorer.html

[edy]

I've been running Ubuntu Studio on my main laptop and installed various other distros for LiveUSB/DVD to try. Any older machine I have gets Lubuntu and for 99% of the stuff I need and family/kids it's enough.
- Web browser
- LibreOffice
- MAME
- media/music/MOD player
- Kodi
- Scribus
- GIMP
- Krita
I love Linux but I agree the average user has no clue.
It's too bad they can't take advantage of older cheap or free hardware and break out of Microsoft dependency or on the continual upgrade cycle. But you know the fact is thanks to that, those of us using Linux have an advantage! Hahaha! How many people dump perfectly good machines all the time complaining how slow they are or Windows won't work on them... we Linux users can take advantage!

[wraper]

For free? http://www.pcworld.com/article/3178683/windows/microsoft-ads-invade-windows-10s-file-explorer.html

All is going to this sort of interface of the future.

[Zero999]

As far as getting past using the console (.. which again, I wouldn't with the likes of Ubuntu.. thankfully, I don't use Ubuntu.) and gaining more GUI elements to gain home user adoption: Please, no. We're already being crippled by simplifications at a preposterous rate, please no fucking more of it. Send them to Apple.

That may be fine for you and 90+% of Linux users, but for those of us still using OSX/Windows, it will never pass muster. The console MUST go away before most casual users will make the switch. Linux is still too steeply based in the UNIX-style text commands for those that grew up using a GUI. My first computer was a Macintosh 512KE back in 1984. I only dabbled in DOS and found it frustrating. I have never relied on a text based OS for day to day work and I'd dare say that more than 90% of computer users haven't either. I may not be able to site specific cases for my own Linux use, but tomorrow, count each time you jump to the console and report back with that number. Each time you access the console, ask yourself if what you're doing can be done sans console. If it cannot, report that number as well. I haven't touched a Windows console in weeks; the last time was to compile wxWidgets.

I've not found that to be the case. I've been using PCLinux OS for the last six or so months and can't ever remember having to resort to using the console.

Like many people these days, I've been brought up on GUIs. I started with Acron RISC OS at school, later Windows 3.1 (which was really terrible in comparison) and Windows to the present day. I've dabbled in  Linux from time to time but have only recently started to use it as my main OS at home.

I do have some experience with a text interface. I used to use DOS a lot, back when Windows used to take ages to start and was very slow and I found many DOS programs worked fine for me so just used DOS. I can appreciate how a good typist will find the command line user interface faster. I admit find the Windows console easier to use than Bash but that's only because I learnt it when I was very young and am more familiar with it.

What is it that you've found you need to reach for the console for?

[Karel]

As far as getting past using the console (.. which again, I wouldn't with the likes of Ubuntu.. thankfully, I don't use Ubuntu.) and gaining more GUI elements to gain home user adoption: Please, no. We're already being crippled by simplifications at a preposterous rate, please no fucking more of it. Send them to Apple.

That may be fine for you and 90+% of Linux users, but for those of us still using OSX/Windows, it will never pass muster. The console MUST go away before most casual users will make the switch. Linux is still too steeply based in the UNIX-style text commands for those that grew up using a GUI.

To say it black and white, if people dislike the console more than adware and spyware, that's their choice.

edit:

If the sole purpose of the console should be to keep away the masses, that alone is a good reason to keep the console. 



 

[krish2487]

mmm..


I d like to point out that even mac os has bsd on the backend for the kernel. and so does android. So infact if you disregard the platform for comparision (desktop, embedded) linux is the largest one out there (or a variant of it). Well, the linux kernel to be more precise. Linux was meant to be a non-restrictive use-it-as-you-see-fit idea. So you take the vanilla kernel and customize it to address a specific need or fancy. Which is why you see so many variants and flavours of linux instead of one version that a corporate is trying to shove down your throat or any other orifice (ahem Microsoft!!).

You want a more user friendly flavour of linux, well develop it yourself. Okay, so you dont want to develop it yourself. Pay someone money to do it for you. You seem to be okay with paying money to MS.


Secondly, it takes me much less time to do most of my tasks for navigating/managing/manipulating/controlling files and devices over the commandline than a fancy GUI. The only absolute areas where GUI actually takes the front seat is for gaming/DTP/Media Editing & Viewing. Not to mention the ubunty unity lens feature allows you to access apps much faster than the windows start button.


I have been using Ubuntu for a bit over 10 years and Centos in a professional environment for over 6 years now. It was a fit and forget kind of setup. Ironically, the production servers running SAP B1 are Windows Server 2008 VMs running on Centos. :-D . I cannot recollect the number of times where I was forced to tinker with the ugly backend of Win Server but my base centos is rock solid!! Not an occassional failure. All this running on 7+ year old hardware. I wonder if windows will even allow you to do that.... 

[Nusa]

If you just called BSD Linix, you are incorrect. Unix was born 1969. BSD branched from Unix in 1978. Linux (a clone, not a branch) wasn't born until 1991. There are significant differences between Unix and Linux, but at the user level they are very similar.

You are correct that Mac OS is based on BSD. So is IoS, which covers the most of the phones that aren't Android.
Android is based on Linux, not BSD. You got that wrong.

[rrinker]

 Of course, your machine runs better with a fresh clean install of Windows 7 than it did with an OEM FULL OF BLOATWARE install of Windows 10 out of the box....
 All things equal, 10 is faster than 7 or 8 on the same system probably 99% of the time. Back when OEMs shipped everything with 7 on it, it still came full of their add-on bloatware and was slow as molasses until you installed a clean copy with none of the unnecessary junk. HP was bad, but Lenovo was even worse.

[krish2487]

You are right of course, I dont know why I even said that. I knew that and still it escaped my memory. 
While the differences between unix and linux are significant, it is not a stretch to say that linus torvalds modelled linux kernel after the BSD and consequently Unix kernel. Not withstanding the implementation specifics, it is a fair statement to say they are similar in behavior even if the differ in the innards. I only meant to point out to that. I stand corrected.


Quote from: Nusa on Today at 06:56:00 AM

If you just called BSD Linix, you are incorrect. Unix was born 1969. BSD branched from Unix in 1978. Linux (a clone, not a branch) wasn't born until 1991. There are significant differences between Unix and Linux, but at the user level they are very similar.

You are correct that Mac OS is based on BSD. So is IoS, which covers the most of the phones that aren't Android.
Android is based on Linux, not BSD. You got that wrong.

[lem_ix]

The current batch of ubuntu/mint/etc are easy enough to use without the console ... I told my non-English speaking / non computer savvy mother how to install Ubuntu over the phone(click next x times )... She's been a happy user for a while now... The only possible issue with the installation is .... surprise surprise Secure Boot, and we know who to thank for that. Probably fixed by now tho, been a while since I've last built a pc.

Hopefully EDA software companies will stop making windows crap :/

[MK14]

I think of Micro$oft as being a massive, conning money grabbing, monopolistic/partly-cheating company.

sadly its all True.  the irony is it all started with a backlash against money grabbing, monopolistic BIG BLUE  IBM !
maybe its time for the next OS backlash or IT disruptor.

I'm impressed that you noticed and knew about the IBM situation and connection. 

Fortunately, I think we may be heading towards a solution.

If other OS's, such as Linux, become more popular and windows less popular. Linux (or at least a non-windows OS) may get to the point of CRITICAL-MASS. I.e. So many users, use it that someone creating a game or piece of software, will then need to write it for Linux as well as Windows.

The increasing likelihood of cheap, Arm based desktop (and other types), may mean that it becomes popular for them to have Linux on, as it won't have the horrible Micro$oft tax on it then.
Much like Mobile Phones and low end tablets, which tend to be Arm and Not-windows, e.g. Android, IOS, Chrome etc.
But I agree some of them are Intel cpu based as well, especially Chrome books.

I think companies such as Google or Apple. Were best placed to challenge Micro$oft. But sadly for various reasons, that has not happened.
E.g. If Apple would sell the MAC OS, for ALL PC's.
Or if Google could have produced a better desktop OS, also for PC's.

But sadly Apple seem to want to sell (arguably) overpriced Apple Macs, and Google prefer to be "internet/cloud" based, e.g. Chrome book.

Anyway, I hope this situation gets fixed, sooner or later.

tl;dr
You can probably tell that I would be crying for weeks on end, if Micro$oft was to be sorted out (e.g. legislation), taken over and FIXED or go bankrupt. Or if a decent OS, at a reasonable price was to appear as competition.

[Faith]

Of course, your machine runs better with a fresh clean install of Windows 7 than it did with an OEM FULL OF BLOATWARE install of Windows 10 out of the box....
 All things equal, 10 is faster than 7 or 8 on the same system probably 99% of the time. Back when OEMs shipped everything with 7 on it, it still came full of their add-on bloatware and was slow as molasses until you installed a clean copy with none of the unnecessary junk. HP was bad, but Lenovo was even worse.

Oh, I wish that were the case. Unfortunately I do keep a USB thumb drive with the latest Windows 10 ISO on it; and when I compare fresh installations of Windows 7 and Windows 10 with each other, Windows 7 still wins in terms of responsiveness. Windows 10 does of course perform better in certain scenarios (USB3 transfer rates, for instance), but in terms of how snappy the OS feels, Windows 7 wins hands down. And this is a parameter which isn't easy to benchmark.

Windows 10 seems to introduce a certain degree of input or output lag compared to Windows 7. The start menu doesn't pop up quite as fast, and neither do new Explorer windows. Maybe Windows 10 is too busy trying to figure what new ad or useless Windows Store App to shove down my throat? Who knows.

Either way, Windows 10 has more pressing issues than performance.