Microsoft to intentionally brick Windows 7/8 Update on Kaby Lake & Ryzen Systems

[@rt]

Amazing as it sounds, I have discovered that Windows 7 can run without updates. I've been running a copy of Windows 7 for nearly 6 months now that has never been updated.

Why would it not run without updates if you didn’t change the hardware?
I’ve run it on more than one PC for much longer than that without any internet connection to even be able to get updates.
I think actually the oldest one is a couple of years.

[Faith]

Why would it not run without updates if you didn’t change the hardware?
I’ve run it on more than one PC for much longer than that without any internet connection to even be able to get updates.
I think actually the oldest one is a couple of years.

I have a couple of friends who refuse to run Windows Update ever again on their Windows systems as a direct result of when Microsoft began injecting all sorts of Windows 10 nagware crap onto everyone's computers via Windows Update. Can't blame them either. That whole episode has left a rather sour taste in the mouths of many people, myself included.

Those friends do use their Windows systems for specific purposes however (mostly gaming; and no web browsing) so they can get away with it.

[rdl]

I was actually just being a bit facetious there.

That's the machine I've been running Windows 7 on since 2012 without ever activating it. The last time I did a fresh install, I found Microsoft had made "Windows Update" such a chore to get working, that I just gave up.

I'd actually like to try Windows 10, just out of curiosity, but before I do that I need to get my network set up so that it will run in complete isolation. I'm not sure they will consider an unactivated Windows 7 install to be a valid upgrade path though.

Amazing as it sounds, I have discovered that Windows 7 can run without updates. I've been running a copy of Windows 7 for nearly 6 months now that has never been updated.

Why would it not run without updates if you didn’t change the hardware?
I’ve run it on more than one PC for much longer than that without any internet connection to even be able to get updates.
I think actually the oldest one is a couple of years.

[rstofer]

Time to switch to Linux and forget windows. Once you get used to Linux, you can do more stuff in less time!

When you can do 100% of the necessary activities required for running a computer without even knowing that a thing called a "console" exists, as you can with Windows, I'll agree. Until then, Linux is a toy of power users and Windows haters.

Actually, if you include the smartphone and embedded systems market, one could argue Linux has already won.  Android is built on Linux. That router you're using is probably running Linux. The list of smart devices running Linux is extensive.

Linux is the most used operating system in the world and still growing. The only exception where Linux isn't king is the desktop.

Personally, I like it that way. Let the masses use something else and act like a lightning rod for virusses and malware.

But, if we are comparing to Windows, on the desktop, then the number of cell phones doesn't matter - Linux has about 1.6% of the desktops.  Totally insignificant!

I have yet to install Eclipse and GCC on my Android phone or tablets and those programs are about the only reasons I use Linux.  Certainly not for the messed up Unity desktop that ships with Ubuntu.  Unity has the distinction of making Win 8.0 look usable.

I haven't checked lately but as I recall, getting user permissions to use the serial ports used to require the command line.  And 'sudo', of course.  Assuming you, as a user, are in the sudoer's group and you probably had to log in as root to add yourself to that group.  I'm pretty sure different distros approach this differently.  Just to add to the difficulty and confusion of setting up a new machine/user.

The bash shell addition to Win 10 is pretty neat.

[@rt]

I was actually just being a bit facetious there.

Ah...

I’ve never had any Win 10 nags, so I guess both machines I have Windows 7 on are older installs than that.
One has never seen a network (at least past any activation that might have been required), and the other hasn’t had a network card or wifi driver for at least a year.
Both are used to run IDEs and little else, and they don’t need updating either

Interestingly, the Mac I’m using now is the biggest slug of the lot.
I can often type a message like this, and what is appearing on the display might have caught up to the “Both are used” part by now.

[suicidaleggroll]

I have yet to use a Linux distro that did not require console access.

And I have yet to get a Windows system going that didn't require console access at least 2-3 times in the first 24 hours.  What's your point?  GUIs only go so far, there are thousands of tasks on both systems that require you to get on the console, otherwise you can't do it.  The difference being Linux openly admits it and has plenty of man pages to help you along your way, while Windows tries everything it can to hide and obfuscate it.

[james_s]

I'm forced to suffer with Win10 at work and frankly it is simply unacceptable to me and will never be on my home PCs. I will run Windows 7 for as long as I possibly can, and then I will transition fully over to Linux. I've already made it my primary OS at work, and relegated my issued Win10 laptop to meeting notes duty. I can run Win7 in a VM and not worry about updates, if it gets infected just roll back to last known good state.

[Karel]

But, if we are comparing to Windows, on the desktop, then the number of cell phones doesn't matter - Linux has about 1.6% of the desktops.  Totally insignificant!

Who cares? 1 ~ 2 % of desktop marketshare is still a high absolute number of users.
Also because Linux users are often engineers.
I prefer to use an OS & desktop environment that is designed by engineers, for engineers.

[technix]

To solve this problem, donate. Donate to Linux Foundation. Donate to Free Software Foundation. Donate to the GNOME/KDE/LXDE/etc projects to make desktop Linux a more popular option.

Or just buy a Mac as your next computer. Hackintosh if you are the brave ones. Oh by the way, both Linux and macOS are UNIX. Once you got used of the basics of UNIX, moving from one flavor of UNIX to another is fairly simple.

Sent from my MacBook Pro running macOS Sierra, through a router running Ubuntu Linux. Enough UNIX for you eh?

[Nusa]

MacOs is a Unix branch, but saying that Linix is Unix is simply wrong. However, they are both Posix systems, if you need a superset that they both belong to.

[technix]

MacOs is a Unix branch, but saying that Linix is Unix is simply wrong. However, they are both Posix systems, if you need a superset that they both belong to.

At least Dennis Ritchie considers macOS and Linux equally UNIX. You should know him being one of the original authors of UNIX in the first place...

[james_s]

I have a couple of friends who refuse to run Windows Update ever again on their Windows systems as a direct result of when Microsoft began injecting all sorts of Windows 10 nagware crap onto everyone's computers via Windows Update. Can't blame them either. That whole episode has left a rather sour taste in the mouths of many people, myself included.

Those friends do use their Windows systems for specific purposes however (mostly gaming; and no web browsing) so they can get away with it.

Yes they stooped really low with that one and completely destroyed the trust and faith I had in Windows Update. It became a service to push trojan horse nagware, at which point I set it to never automatically download any updates. I manually check each update before I allow it to install. The arrogance is stunning even for Microsoft.

[Monkeh]

I have a couple of friends who refuse to run Windows Update ever again on their Windows systems as a direct result of when Microsoft began injecting all sorts of Windows 10 nagware crap onto everyone's computers via Windows Update. Can't blame them either. That whole episode has left a rather sour taste in the mouths of many people, myself included.

Those friends do use their Windows systems for specific purposes however (mostly gaming; and no web browsing) so they can get away with it.

Yes they stooped really low with that one and completely destroyed the trust and faith I had in Windows Update. It became a service to push trojan horse nagware, at which point I set it to never automatically download any updates. I manually check each update before I allow it to install. The arrogance is stunning even for Microsoft.

And now they've gone even lower!

[Karel]

The driving force of Linux is researchers and hobbyist

The driving force of the Linux kernel are engineers , mainly backed by big companies, who get paid for it.

The driving force of Linux desktop environments are mainly programming professionals who volunteer in their spare time.

The parts where hobbyists are involved in kernel development are neglitchable.

Most Linux developers contribute to the kernel as part of their employment.

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/09/google-and-samsung-soar-into-list-of-top-10-linux-contributors/

https://www.linux.com/blog/top-10-developers-and-companies-contributing-linux-kernel-2015-2016

[Karel]

The driving force of Linux is researchers and hobbyist

The driving force of the Linux kernel are engineers , mainly backed by big companies, who get paid for it.

The driving force of Linux desktop environments are mainly programming professionals who volunteer in their spare time.

The parts where hobbyists are involved in kernel development are neglitchable.

Most Linux developers contribute to the kernel as part of their employment.

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/09/google-and-samsung-soar-into-list-of-top-10-linux-contributors/

https://www.linux.com/blog/top-10-developers-and-companies-contributing-linux-kernel-2015-2016

I was talking about the usability (user interface) part as well as some often overlooked by big companies kernel part (such as ALSA, which gave me quite some pain recently as I'm writing my own ALSA driver for my own sound card DAC chip implemented in FPGA), not the kernel's most important feature part.

I was talking about the usability for engineers & professionals.
For work, we order computers from Fujitsu or Dell which are compatibel with Linux.
No problems here with alsa or soundcards.

[raspberrypi]

More importantly why do the have such weird names like kaby lake? Sounds like a horse or, well a lake , or a town. Lets call the next processor dream mountain!

[rrinker]

 They are intended as internal code names, however the current fashion seems to be not hide that stuff any more, so every PC enthusiast site publishes the code name. They aren't random names - they are actually places in US national parks. Prior to Kaby lake was Skylake - Sky Lake is in Yosemite. Cannon Lake (next one after Kaby Lake) is in Minnesota.

 No different than Google using the name of deserts for each Android version - Ice Cream, Cupcake, etc.

[Mr. Scram]

How did this end up being a Windows versus Linux thread? It always seems silly to me to vehemently adore one and oppose the other. Both camps produce pieces of software that have proven their use in the real world. They both have qualities and flaws and weaknesses.

I have to admit that Windows 10 is a great OS of you just want to get work done. It is possibly the best OS Microsoft ever made from a technical point of view. In business environments their traditional and new services are unparalleled, even though competitors are catching up in some areas. Getting and keeping things going and centrally managing them is easier than ever, with much less of the odd quirks that used to go with that.

That being said, I hate the software as a service direction Microsoft is going, where users are ever more obligated to use that magical cloud, relinquishing control over their own computer at every turn. In a world where privacy and control over your own data becomes more of an issue every day, it is the last thing we need.

Crap. I haven't updated my computer (ie the hardware) since 2012 and had just now (like two hours ago) compiled a list of components for a new system, including an i5-7600K Kaby Lake. I already have a spare W7 license I was planning to use as I saw absolutely zero reasons to go W10 - untill I stumbled across this post that is. Hmmm, perhaps I'll just stick with this old system then...

You could consider buying Skylake hardware. The difference is small, but you will have support for Windows 7 and 8. You might even get a good deal.

[james_s]

I don't see what anyone sees in Win10 that makes them say it's "the best Windows ever" other than paid evangelists from MS. I don't dislike Windows, in fact other than a few minor issues I think Windows 7 is fantastic, it's the pinnacle of Microsoft OS development. Rock solid stable, reasonable compatibility, good performance, beautiful and highly customizable UI, it does pretty much everything right. XP was excellent for its time, at least once you disable the ludicrous Fisher Price default color scheme. Win2k was rock solid, Win98 was reasonably good for the time and Win95 defined the direction of Windows for the next 15 years.

Windows 10 on the other hand feels half baked, it has that same design by committee, full of inconsistencies crufty feel as Linux distros from 10+ years ago. It feels more like a platform to push Microsoft "apps" and services than an operating system existing as the foundation on which I'm to run the software of my choosing. The forced updates means that once enough users are locked in MS can make whatever changes they please and we will have little we can do besides bend over and take it or switch to another platform entirely. In the past if I didn't like a new version of Windows I could choose to remain on an old one. I could upgrade on *my* schedule, and could trust that if I leave my PC up for a week with a bunch of stuff I'm working on open, it will stay that way and not decide to reboot whenever it feels like it to install some new changes I didn't ask for. The forced update thing is something I've always hated about smartphones and now it's coming to PCs which are a tool I rely on daily to do work. This is unacceptable to me.

So what does Win10 offer over previous versions? Sure, it boots a tad faster but compared to a fresh install of Win7 the difference is pretty negligible, and who cares? I boot my PC once in a day at most generally, often once and then run for several weeks. It has the latest security updates, but so does Win7 for a few more years. That's about all I've found, and certainly not enough to make it worth staring at that fugly UI that looks like a preliminary wireframe, or the baked in services and promotions that I do not care about in the least, or that joke of a browser they keep nagging me to try, or the gimmicky Cortana that does little more than open a Bing search for something that's not what I wanted, or the search that by default searches the internet when all I want to look for are files on my local machine, or the ridiculous universal apps when there are far better 3rd party offerings for what any of them do.

[Monkeh]

I may not be able to site specific cases for my own Linux use, but tomorrow, count each time you jump to the console and report back with that number. Each time you access the console, ask yourself if what you're doing can be done sans console. If it cannot, report that number as well. I haven't touched a Windows console in weeks; the last time was to compile wxWidgets.

By the way, just to add some fuel to the fire: I just created 28 directories and then sorted over 300 files into those directories according to their filename, in a trivial <100 character one-liner. Please show me how to do this faster in Explorer.

[Mr. Scram]

I don't see what anyone sees in Win10 that makes them say it's "the best Windows ever" other than paid evangelists from MS.

Accusing people of being paid evangelists when they have an opinion different than your own on the matter is not really conducive to an open discussion.

There are a number of reasons to say this. Windows 7 was a great OS, but under the hood, it shows its age. One of the more important areas is security. IT security is rapidly evolving and the architecture is not up to snuff in regards to modern standards. It will still do, but there is a definite difference there. Another thing that people tend to overlook is that the often clunky feeling app store also introduces a very granular control over what apps can and cannot do with your computer. This difference between this new model, and the traditional one where applications could run amok, really shows the different attitudes that stem from different centuries.

Other areas have also been improved and touched up. Faster booting, easier refreshing, built in ISO support - you name it. There are a lot of features that improve ease of use. Windows 8 shares a number of these improvements, but as we all know, it was loathed for its interface. People hated the tile interface. Running desktop applications and store apps together the way they did was a bit odd at best. Most users experience the more traditional Windows 10 GUI as a more pleasant one.

Looking at it from the viewpoint of a system administrator, the new Windows 10 update model is both sour and sweet. Administrators have much less control over their systems, but Microsoft finally attempts to fix the chaos that is a thousands of different updates and consequent configurations. Things like updates not being found or installed, a common woe, should be something of the past. Even though it might not turn out to be the solution, the problem certainly needed addressing.

As I said in my previous post, I personally dislike the new direction Microsoft is taking Windows. Personally, and I realise this is a controversial opinion that will get me keelhauled in some places, I feel Windows 8.1 is the best Microsoft OS. Quite possibly the best OS of any. It combines the pleasantness of Windows 7 with the modern feel and technology of Windows 10, without the obligatory ads,  lack of control and suspicious telemetry. Unfortunately, it is probably the most hated Windows OS after Vista, due to daring to change how things look.

[james_s]

Sorry I didn't mean to imply that I was accusing you personally of being a paid evangelist. What I meant was I can understand why paid evangelists would go around saying that it's the best ever, but I have a much harder time understanding why someone else would say that.

I do agree that Win8 has a very nice framework, it's definitely less buggy than Win10 in my experience, I think the Win8 framework with the Win7 UI would be a nice setup. Win10 is just so buggy, not so much major showstoppers that I can put a finger on, but *so* many little niggles, quirks and flaws. Death by a thousand pinpricks.

[Monkeh]

So now I'm writing an ALSA driver with my secret sauce algorithm, to satisfy the stupid GPL requirement, I have to mmap to user space and use a closed source helper daemon to do the DSP magic, while the kernel driver being GPL. How stupid it is!

Please do everyone a favour and keep your magic entirely in userspace where it can't do any any harm. Or just go do it in hardware.

I agree, it's entirely stupid to build an open source kernel and then let people run closed-source blobs of unknown garbage inside it. Just doesn't make sense.

[Karel]

Well, I was talking about "general purpose".

Well, I was talking about the usability for engineers & professionals.

Most people won't be able to afford a high performance qualified Linux system from a big brand.

Here's an example of an OpenSuse Linux compatibel pc for +/-$400,=: http://docs.ts.fujitsu.com/dl.aspx?id=3efde622-df2f-469e-a720-15bfadfa5153 (Fujitsu Siemens P420)

And don't get me started on its stupid GPL licensing model.

I didn't. You started to rant about the GPL. But now you are asking, those problems can be solved by releasing your software under a GPL compatibel license.
O wait, you only want to take but you don't want to give back... Well, in that case, use BSD, Mac or windows and stay away from Linux.

To clarify things, the GPL is not there to help programmers or companies that want to create closed source software.
The GPL is there to protect the end-user. If you don't like that, than stay away from GPL licensed software.

[technix]

In fact when I built my computers I built it with VMware ESXi, Ubuntu Linux or even Hackintosh in mind. A workstation with 2-node NUMA (2x Xeon E5-2680,) 128GB ECC RAM and hardware RAID is definitely not Windows' forté. In fact Windows throws tantrums whenever RAID is involved. And for the daily driver workstation preferring a Gigabyte motherboard with dual BIOS over my usual Asus is intended to maximize macOS support and allowing riskier modifications. Despite the free genuine Windows 10 license Microsoft kindly offered to the Chinese users that upgraded in that free period, once I got my GTX 980 Ti graphics card (the best card supported under macOS with nVidia's trustworthy Web Driver) it is back to Hackintosh. And on my home server Windows won't even install properly as it have no UEFI but a multi-terabyte RAID array. Once again, RAID and Windows being mutually exclusive.

Windows have various shortcomings when coming to high-end systems:

* It absolutely demands UEFI if you want to boot off a disk (or RAID array) larger than 2TB. Linux, ESXi and Hackintosh can all boot with a simple trampoline despite a lack of UEFI in BIOS.

* There is no way doing any purely software-based SSD caching without a hardware license key. On my Z97 board the Intel RST is deemed broken and I cannot use the SSD caching feature at all. Meanwhile with Linux (through bcache) and Hackintosh (through Fusion Drive) I can use a SSD cache to strike a balance between speed and capacity.

* Programming: I can share code between Linux and macOS and it is usually one compile away. Windows always required significant porting efforts despite Cygwin and MSYS.

* EE: EAGLE and MPLAB works everywhere for me. It is Eclipse + GCC ARM Embedded that is causing trouble: won't work properly under Ubuntu 16.10, have problems under Windows, fantastic under macOS. Speaking of which, there are hidden modes available in the LLVM toolchain shipped with Xcode that can allow it being used to emit code for Cortex-M. Apple did release the toolchain for their LPC1800-based motion coprocessors. Atmel Studio and Keil would have to stay inside a hypervisor. (And hey I have ESXi running around here.)

Multimedia: macOS is the undefeated king of multimedia apps. In fact the lack of native Blu-ray support made it the king. VLC plays everything everywhere, and does not spy me. Windows have mandatory spyware running whenever you insert a Blu-ray Disc, even though I am not a US citizen, the machine is not located in the US and I should not be subjected to the DMCA in this case. The multimedia editing tools on Linux are primitive, but this is exactly its strength, as those tools can be combined using a Makefile, called with the -j flag to force extra parallelism, and exercise all cores on my CPU and GPU at the utterly maximum.