Microwave weapons?

[coppercone2]

It is possible that the noise and other things were theater to cover the use of a chemical agent of some kind -- you know, a diversion.  And, as you rightly point out, Russia is not averse to using chemical or even radioactive agents to harm/kill people.

The thing with Putin's Russia though is that they like the world to know they did it hence the use of agents no street criminal can get there hands on, but in this case they, if they were involved, they have made no effort at all to say they did it unless the measures used is the signature.  But, you have to recognize the signature.

The fact that there are many people effected and some exhibit damage to there brains suggest that something indeed is going on, but just what is being used and by whom is in my mind -- not settled.  The idea that Russia might wish to keep the US from becoming too friendly with Cuba is, perhaps, the most reasonable reason does tend to point a finger at them, but absent something more definitive as a cause there's too little to go on and too many possibilities.  The only other culprit that comes to mind might be Venezuela, but one would think they are not quite in the spy-versus-spy league as is Russia, the UK and the USA.


Brian

If it's poison / one time exposure thing then they can do alot to size up the people doing it using epidemology techniques. I believe there were actually some algorithms developed to basically look at crimes which may or may not be related (for serial killers) and use time constants related to travel and factors like transportation routes, traffic, weather conditions and all sorts of other factors so they can kind of predict when and possibly where a next strike will occur, but it might also be possible to use similar techniques to figure out how many perpetrators there are.. I think it's kind of like the bridges problem with velocity/propagation delay, so you can get minimum and maximum numbers for how many delivery trucks you need to carry out a delivery within however many days.

What is scary is Russias cyber offensive capabilities, I wonder if they could totally hack the airports and stuff to make a large group of people untraceable. Cuban infrastructure is probably very weak, but they might use paper?

Venezula is interesting because they think westerners killed their leader with radioactive materials. But driving a handful of people crazy does not really make sense as a vengeance action. But maybe they decided to use realpolitk after that point.

I think this is kind of the problem with sanctions, you end up getting a country that has a weak police force and other players that can easily overpower it and use it as pawn. I bet there are no surveillance cameras in Cuba (I am guessing the FBI is interviewing old ladies that stare out the windows). I always wanted peace with them so I don't have to deal with a slum next doors. Slums always bring problems. Compare Mexico to Canada. If they were a rich belligerent nation you can at least easily tell if they are hampering the investigation.. with Cuba it feels like a coin toss. I think most of their cars are from the 1950's, its like a little Africa.

But doesn't this all seem odd? I mean I can't even imagine a James Bond film about this.

[coppercone2]

I located a likely suspect.

[raptor1956]

Apparently the US Intelligence agencies, siting intercepts and other data, is pointing the finger at Russia in the attack on the US embassy staff in Cuba.  I'll wait to see if more info is forthcoming given the limits on how much they can reveal about sources and methods, but this is not all that unexpected and is, in fact, one of the ideas some of us have talked about here.  The US believes the purpose was to prevent Cuba from getting too close to the USA.  Again, this is exactly what some of us have suspected was the reason.  Still not much info and not much on the actual weapons/agents used -- again, I wonder how much will be revealed given the need to protect the sources and methods.

Putin is going well beyond the norms with the use of 'little green men' in Crimea and western Ukraine, the poisoning of people in the UK, and the pervasive use of trolls in social media effecting pretty much everyone.  This guy is a threat to the planet.


Brian

[In Vacuo Veritas]

These things are a menace if you bite into them fresh out the microwave


This could be psychological torture, waiting for them to cool down...

[raptor1956]

These things are a menace if you bite into them fresh out the microwave


This could be psychological torture, waiting for them to cool down...

As a comedian once said ... I put instant coffee in a microwave oven and almost went back in time!


Brian

[Howardlong]

'Sonic attack' on US embassy in Havana could have been crickets, say scientists

Noise which saw diplomats complaining of headaches and nausea could be song of Indies short-tailed cricket

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/06/sonic-attack-on-us-embassy-in-havana-could-have-been-crickets-say-scientists

[cdev]

Look up 'retroreflector'.

[helius]

Look up 'retroreflector'.

Could you give better context, please?
Microwave corner reflectors are large and obvious:

'Sonic attack' on US embassy in Havana could have been

Do not waste time blocking your ears.
Do not waste time seeking a soundproof shelter.
Do not panic...
Use those seconds sensibly or you will inevitably die!

[CM800]

Do not waste time blocking your ears.
Do not waste time seeking a soundproof shelter.
Do not panic...
Use those seconds sensibly or you will inevitably die!

Put as much of your body in a metal box and point the enterance of said box towards the floor?

[DrG]

I realize how long it has been since a response in the thread, but The National Academy of Sciences report on this issue just came out and this seems like the appropriate place.

An Assessment of Illness in U.S. Government Employees and Their Families at Overseas Embassies (2020)

PDF download of the report is available: https://www.nap.edu/download/25889

I paid a lot of attention to this when it was occurring but grew frustrated with the lack of facts that were available. I was particularly annoyed by "explanations" of chemical or viral effects and even "mass hysteria (which, IMO, is not a thing).

Lifting a few sentences from the Plausible Mechanisms section: The committee found the unusual presentation of acute, directional or location-specific early phase signs, symptoms and observations reported by DOS employees to be consistent with the effects of directed, pulsed radio frequency (RF) energy. Many of the chronic, nonspecific symptoms are also consistent with known RF effects, such as dizziness, headache, fatigue, nausea, anxiety, cognitive deficits, and memory loss.

[Bud]

You can find the exact same "non specific symptoms" in pretty much Any prescriptions drug list of side effects.

[raptor1956]

You can find the exact same "non specific symptoms" in pretty much Any prescriptions drug list of side effects.

Yes, perhaps all the people effected were taking the same prescription drugs?

Seriously, something happened to cause many of the staff to experience these symptoms with a strong correlation with time and place -- kind of suggests something other than prescription drugs and the fact that pulsed RF can do this and there is a desire to do it and the means to do it ...


Brian

[Alex Eisenhut]

Has anyone asked Paul Brodeur?

[0xdeadbeef]

I was too lazy to read the report, but I still find it highly unlikely that the source of this phenomenon was "directed, pulsed radio frequency (RF) energy". How would this explain that the sounds were actually recorded on smart phones? Besides, even if the Frey effect really exists (since there doesn't seem to be any scientific model how it's supposed to work), the few people who ever were affected by it described it as faint(!) clicking sound and not as terrible noise. And these people were working near radar units in WWII and the like. To hit someone with this kind of energy inside his/her apartments without clearly visible antenna arrays seems somewhat impossible.

I still think the most plausible root cause would be some ultrasonic device that caused interferences (or intermodulation distortion) in the acoustic range. Which doesn't mean that the devices causing this were necessarily developed to cause harm. The article I quoted at the beginning of this thread e.g. named ceiling-mounted ultrasonic room-occupancy sensors. Taking into account that we're talking about embassy employees, maybe the embassy has installed ultrasonic jammers that are supposed to cause microphones to malfunction.
Of course all of this would just cause noise but honestly all the other symptoms seem rather vague. And surely a sound that you can't locate, that keeps you from sleeping etc. will also cause side effects like feeling tired etc.
 

[DrG]

I was too lazy to read the report, but I still find it highly unlikely that the source of this phenomenon was "directed, pulsed radio frequency (RF) energy". How would this explain that the sounds were actually recorded on smart phones? Besides, even if the Frey effect really exists (since there doesn't seem to be any scientific model how it's supposed to work), the few people who ever were affected by it described it as faint(!) clicking sound and not as terrible noise. And these people were working near radar units in WWII and the like. To hit someone with this kind of energy inside his/her apartments without clearly visible antenna arrays seems somewhat impossible.

I still think the most plausible root cause would be some ultrasonic device that caused interferences (or intermodulation distortion) in the acoustic range. Which doesn't mean that the devices causing this were necessarily developed to cause harm. The article I quoted at the beginning of this thread e.g. named ceiling-mounted ultrasonic room-occupancy sensors. Taking into account that we're talking about embassy employees, maybe the embassy has installed ultrasonic jammers that are supposed to cause microphones to malfunction.
Of course all of this would just cause noise but honestly all the other symptoms seem rather vague. And surely a sound that you can't locate, that keeps you from sleeping etc. will also cause side effects like feeling tired etc.

I think it is unfortunate that you didn't read the report. Not going to start a big fight as I am also "too lazy" to do a lot of stuff. I hope you will take the time to read the report. They had a defined task and they were given a certain amount of information. The report does not present a definitive answer and they are quite clear about that (e.g., "Plausible Explanations"). Personally, I like that they analyzed the data they had and did so in, what seems to me to be, reasonable fashion. They were contracted to do the work and their work was reviewed.

As for the "recorded sounds" issue that you mentioned. I remember those and never felt that they had much credibility...

Cell phone recordings of the alleged sonic attack were provided to an Associated Press reporter by an anonymous source in the State Department. But the sounds were identified by Yamile González Sánchez, an official at the Ministry of Public Health, and physicist Carlos Barceló Pérez, a professor at the National Institute of Hygiene, as those made by local insects, which they recorded on the scene. Moreover, the sounds, all in the audible range (about 7 kilohertz), would have overdriven the microphone—preventing it from recording—if they were loud enough to damage hearing. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/ldquo-sonic-weapon-attacks-rdquo-on-u-s-embassy-don-rsquo-t-add-up-mdash-for-anyone/

and also https://apnews.com/article/88bb914f8b284088bce48e54f6736d84

[Nominal Animal]

My bet is contaminated "nose sugar".

Everything they reported matches accidental long-term exposure to some chemical.  If it was from food, low-grade manufacturing materials, or anything otther innocent, it'd have shown up in their bloodwork.

But, if it was from contamination of recreational chemicals, especially intravenous or applied to mucous membranes, much smaller amounts would produce large enough effects.  All officials would be very keen to keep any such findings under wraps, even letting all sorts of ridiculous conspiracy theories to fly, to not lose face: even though it is well known that many diplomats like to have their fun in their downtime, having to admit them using illegal recreational chemicals would be a PR catastrophe.

Much better to concoct a story about microwave or sonic weaponry, and try to raise more "everyone is against us" mentality among USians.  It's exactly the kind of PR move you'd expect.

[coppercone2]

I think its a bit much to try to blame drug use on mass psychosis-resembling-thing in a overseas embassy in a not so friendly place. Maybe you could say that in a posh european embassy, but then there would probobly be reports of a rave-gone-bad in the news. Yea they are not just gonna get 70 people coked up with the same stuff and hit up some of fidels havana clubs. Thats a bit much even for a jack black feature (i assume this is taken from 'the brink').

[Nominal Animal]

I think its a bit much to try to blame drug use on mass psychosis-resembling-thing in a overseas embassy in a not so friendly place.

So you think a microwave or a sonic weapon aimed at an embassy is more likely than contaminated recreational substances?  Yeah, right.

Maybe you could say that in a posh european embassy, but then there would probobly be reports of a rave-gone-bad in the news.

No, that's not why and how diplomatic staff use certain illicit substances.  This is stuff they take exactly because when the work is so stressful, especially for lower-level people.  (They, and the higher ups, are the ones who will be blamed whenever something goes wrong.)

A lot of these substances are even prescribed by a doctor.  That's what makes it so likely.  Admitting they have a supply chain issue is one thing, but admitting to the public the staff has a supply chain for various substances widely abused, is a double whammy.  Blaming someone else is so much easier and safer.

You're a good example of why spreading those conspiracy theories is so effective.  You're more willing to believe other countries would target your embassies with experimental microwave or sonic weaponry, than think anything negative of the staff, their substance use, or consider the willingness of your government to hide such.


You really need to have your meter checked!

Thats a bit much even for a jack black feature (i assume this is taken from 'the brink').

Haven't seen it.

[radar_macgyver]

I still call BS on this as well. There are other far more plausible explanations for the symptoms described. I also think that any US embassy, in particular one in a place like Cuba or China would have a lot of ELINT equipment, which would have easily picked up and localized such emissions - they are not exactly subtle.

[0xdeadbeef]

For the record: as far as I recall, the embassy employees heard these noises in their homes or in a hotel, not in the embassy.

[coppercone2]

im saying highly paid embassy staff getting bad drugs in mass that all have the same effect on 70 people around the same time is about as likely as space aliens doing it

Maybe if it happened in a cult compound in the back of texas I might believe that

[CatalinaWOW]

I certainly find illicit drug use by embassy employees credible.  But it starts pushing credibility pretty hard when you get seventy of them apparently starting (or at least all using the same bad dope) at roughly the same time.  That implies that they all had the same pusher and all used a common stockpile since private stashes of different sizes would spread the effects over time.  Such large groups of sharing users doesn't fit any pattern I have ever encountered. 

Any horse can be ridden until it drops.  Without real data they all will be.

[coppercone2]

I certainly find illicit drug use by embassy employees credible.  But it starts pushing credibility pretty hard when you get seventy of them apparently starting (or at least all using the same bad dope) at roughly the same time.  That implies that they all had the same pusher and all used a common stockpile since private stashes of different sizes would spread the effects over time.  Such large groups of sharing users doesn't fit any pattern I have ever encountered. 

Any horse can be ridden until it drops.  Without real data they all will be.

yea and they all took it at he same time and no one just said in the hospital that they took drugs 

Once people start having side effects from drugs they are pretty honest with doctors (oh shit maybe I need my stomach pumped. I think i might die !). They won't shoot you for it. It's like considered a bad place, if anything the person that assigned them there after 'evaluating' them would get in trouble for some how putting so many people in 1 place that cannot take the pressure.

[Nominal Animal]

I certainly find illicit drug use by embassy employees credible.  But it starts pushing credibility pretty hard when you get seventy of them apparently starting (or at least all using the same bad dope) at roughly the same time.  That implies that they all had the same pusher and all used a common stockpile since private stashes of different sizes would spread the effects over time.  Such large groups of sharing users doesn't fit any pattern I have ever encountered.

No, but in such a high-strung environment all you need for a mass psychosis is for a few "seed" people to describe similar effects.  Especially when when those who suspect it is their own behaviour that caused it and may seriously negatively affect their own careers, start encouraging others to report similar effects, because they hope or sincirely believe their own behaviour is not – cannot, must not be! – the culprit.

Any horse can be ridden until it drops.  Without real data they all will be.

What does that mean?

There are literally at least a dozen more likely explanations than microwave or sonic weaponry aimed at an embassy (or at embassy personnel).  I can see exactly why any country would prefer to push odd conspiracy theories rather than admit anything untoward in their own embassy.

This is even sillier than the 5G conspiracy stuff.

[DrG]

There are literally at least a dozen more likely explanations than microwave or sonic weaponry aimed at an embassy (or at embassy personnel).

Can you please list a dozen more likely explanations than microwave or sonic weaponry?

Edit:

The report cited discusses 1. Chemical exposure, 2.Infectious disease and 3. Psychological issues - so that leaves only 9 more for you to list, although clearly, they did not feel any of the three listed were more likely than directed pulsed RF energy (which the report apparently "(defined as 30KHz-300GHz, including microwave radiation as 300MHz-300GHz).")

From p.2 (and there is more discussion elsewhere).

The committee also considered chemical exposures, infectious diseases and psychological issues as potential causes or aggravating factors. Although some reports suggested that exposure to organophosphates (OP) and/or pyrethroids from insecticide spraying in Havana could be a cause or contributing factor, the committee concluded that this mechanism was not likely because there was no convincing evidence of acute high-level exposures and the clinical histories of affected U.S. Embassy personnel were not consistent with acute OP poisoning. However, as insecticides can increase the risk or severity of adverse outcomes after exposure to a wide variety of physical or psychosocial stressors, the committee cannot rule out subacute or chronic OP and/or pyrethroid exposures as a possible contributing factor to nonspecific chronic symptoms.

Infectious agents known to be prevalent in Cuba at the time of the U.S. Embassy cases and capable of causing neurological manifestations most prominently include Zika, which was epidemic in Cuba in 2016-2017. However, after reviewing the medical and public health literature, the committee found it highly unlikely that Zika was the cause of the constellation of signs and symptoms reported among DOS personnel.

The acute initial, sudden-onset, distinctive, and unusual symptoms and signs are difficult to ascribe to psychological and social factors. However, the significant variability and clinical heterogeneity of the illnesses affecting DOS personnel leave open the possibility of multiple causal factors including psychological and social factors. These factors could exacerbate other causes of illness and cannot be ruled out as contributing to some of the cases, especially some of the chronic symptoms or later in the course of illness in some cases. Finally, the committee concurred with the diagnosis of persistent postural-perceptual dizziness (PPPD), a functional (not psychiatric) vestibular disorder that may be triggered by vestibular, neurologic, other medical and psychological conditions and may explain some chronic signs and symptoms in some patients.