More TBHS soldering fail

[PlainName]

going to be roundly ignored from this point on

You know, a principled person wouldn't attempt to have the last word before metaphorically sticking their fingers in their ears and going "LALALALALALALA". It's often interesting, and instructive, how various people do this 

[Neomys Sapiens]

It does look unloved — but that seems to be how Wellers look after a few years. They last forever, but they look grungy pretty fast. But yeah, that tip needs to be replaced or cleaned, seriously…

Hey! My oldest Weller is a EC2000 from '85 and it doesn't look pristine but ok. Also the original LR21, whose Grip is blank and the barrel a bit worn, but it is a spare now. Such things happen always and happen early with toolsoilers.

[Cyberdragon]

Is the old married couple done with their yet? No? Well then I'll show you how not to use a soldering iron!

Lobs a large solder gun at dunkemhigh's head
Stabs cerebus with a hot conical tip

There, now that those two are dealt with, let's continue with how not to solder.

[Cerebus]

Is the old married couple done with their yet? No? Well then I'll show you how not to use a soldering iron!

Lobs a large solder gun at dunkemhigh's head
Stabs cerebus with a hot conical tip

There, now that those two are dealt with, let's continue with how not to solder.

That is hardly helpful young man. Now go to your room until you have learned how to behave in company. 

Seriously, I'm quite happy to ignore him. Throwing insults at both parties is hardly helpful, and in the real world is the quickest way to get your head kicked in, just ask any copper who's been to a 'domestic'.

[tooki]

Well, while I do hate conical tips, the actual size of the tip is fine for drag soldering. But of course, what he did is neither drag soldering nor "classic" soldering. (German has a great saying for things like this: "Weder Fisch noch Fleisch!" — 'neither fish nor meat' )

The standard English version of that phrase is "neither fish nor fowl" which nicely keeps the alliteration and is at least medieval in origin.

Thank you!! You know, that even sounds vaguely familiar, now that you say it!!! (My literary English is somewhat weak, since I went to high school here in Switzerland, at a normal Swiss school, so I didn’t ever have proper adult English literature, it was all German. Being an avid nerd, I did, and still do, tons of technical reading in my free time, though, in both English and German, so my technical writing is excellent.)

The problem here is amateurism. Many years ago, in a midnight Kaffeeklatsch, a friend and I came up with a classification of amateurism and professionalism (for subjects that can both be hobbies and paying occupations) that, in retrospect, has stood the test of time and I offer here for your consideration.

[snip 4 classifications]

I love it!!! Totally agree with it.

*Yes, I'm looking at you Martha Lane Fox.

I can think of another famous public servant whose actual skills are nowhere near where they need to be, nor anywhere near as good as he thinks they are... I weep for 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

**I'll just point out that we discussed exactly that effect in the conversation that lead to this homily at least twenty years before Dunning and Kruger put their names to it and somewhere in the Usenet archives is a summary like this one written in the mid 90s by the other party to the original conversation. I'm not going to accuse Dunning or Kruger of plagiarism,  but perhaps a name change is in order. 

Heheheheh. Of course, Dunning and Kruger really just systematically confirmed and then wrote in a proper academic fashion what everyone (well, except the objects of the effect) has always known: stupid people are too stupid to know how stupid they are!

My, y'all do like jumping to assumptions. I know full well how soldering is supposed to happen, but this is NOT about what I know or do. It is about what HE does and shows. Did he look like he is maintaining standards with that iron? Is the beginner that copies him going to? Of course not! Splash it, clean up, done.

We make sound conclusions based on what we know about you. What we know about you comes from what you write. (It does not come from what’s in your head. We aren’t telepathic.)

Your writing sounded as though you thought Heck’s method was sound. At no point was it clear you were being sarcastic. That’s on you, not us.

[PlainName]

At no point was it clear you were being sarcastic

No doubt because I wasn't being sarcastic.

sounded as though you thought Heck’s method was sound

Neither did I say it was sound.

What I did suggest was:

Might Mr Heck be showing what your average kit builder is easily capable of if only they were shown how?

OK, 'average' should possibly have been 'n00b' but if you couldn't get the gist despite that I think reading comprehension is probably more the culprit than writing. But, just to be clear, I spelled it out explicitly too:

Watch a decent tech do precision soldering and you'd be forgiven for thinking you need many hundreds worth of JBC kit. Here, he shows that it's perfectly possible to use a five quid thing from Aldi/Lidl, and I bet more amateurs are more likely to give this a go than if they'd just watched one of those HP films.

In no way does that imply that his soldering is any good. In fact, it implies it is not (otherwise it wouldn't be beginner-like, would it).

Here we go again: cue the "It's a Weller not Aldi" pedants. Mea culpa, etc. It was that, the bloody iron pedantry, that caused the lengthy thread - if y'all had only sussed 'Aldi' == shorthand for 'inappropriately big and messy' perhaps there wouldn't have been much discussion at all.

[tooki]

At no point was it clear you were being sarcastic

No doubt because I wasn't being sarcastic.

In which case you were being serious about endorsing his method, and in that case, you don't know what you're talking about.

"But I didn't say that!!" you cry. Except that that's a lie.

sounded as though you thought Heck’s method was sound

Neither did I say it was sound.

Yes, you did:

Sure, but that's not actually relevant for splashing blobs on SMD chips, is it? So long as the stuff is molten and isn't evaporating, the job's a good 'un.

Your words, not ours. Don't try to gaslight us, making us out to be crazies when in fact we replied to your words as written. This is all on you.

[PlainName]

In which case you were being serious about endorsing his method

Sorry to be blunt, but you are talking complete bollocks.

Except that that's a lie.

Aye?

the job's a good 'un.

Let me guess you are not a native English-speaker? You've never heard that expression, or a close likeness, before? If so then I will forgive you your slander.

Don't try to gaslight us

You what? I am a born English-speaker, but that's a new one on me!

[Mr. Scram]

Define "English", and all of its official and slang variants, spanning a huge cultural range.

[PlainName]

Thank you, Mr Scram, for giving an almost perfect demonstration of why threads like this escalate in the way they do. You know very well what was meant, and also know that it is a commonly understood and used phrase. But despite that you chose to act the pedant in order to start another argument.

[hamster_nz]

I am English and speak English, and 'Gaslightng' is very much a USA expression - it comes from a movie. Something to do with manipulating somebody to doubt their own sanity by denying something happened.

It's a bit like how Americans don't understand irony. "It's like rain on your wedding day", but only if you are a weather forcaster....

[PlainName]

'Gaslightng' is very much a USA expression - it comes from a movie

Thanks very much for the explanation. I figured out the gist just from context, but it's good to know the detail 

[Mr. Scram]

Thank you, Mr Scram, for giving an almost perfect demonstration of why threads like this escalate in the way they do. You know very well what was meant, and also know that it is a commonly understood and used phrase. But despite that you chose to act the pedant in order to start another argument.

I don't know why you're so belligerent. I just indicated that the English language is spoken in many parts of the world, with many different local and not so local variants that might not be familiar to others, even if they're native speakers. As if to prove the point made, the not quite unknown word gaslighting is apparently not familiar to you, despite it being well known enough to have its own Wikipedia page. Of course, we're also quite familiar with Dave's Australianisms, which often confound people who are otherwise well familiar with the English language.

Threads tend to escalte if you lash out at everyone who dares to tread close.

[PlainName]

Since your reply is so polite I will treat it at face value and apologise for going off on one at you.

I accept that there are many dialects and variations, but 'English' is usually taken to mean the Queen's language as detailed by the OED. For something else it would be explicit: American English as detailed by Miriam Webster, for instance, except where some basic element is common. The particular phrase I used probably wouldn't be known away from England, though.

I don't know why you're so belligerent.

When you are slandered in a public forum, you may reflect on that question and know the answer.

[tooki]

the job's a good 'un.

Let me guess you are not a native English-speaker? You've never heard that expression, or a close likeness, before? If so then I will forgive you your slander.

English is my mother tongue, though I am at near-native fluency in German, Swiss German, and Spanish. (I’m American with a very international background.) I actually worked as a technical writer and translator (in and into English, respectively), and my mom is an English teacher, so I’m pretty confident on my own English skills. That said, there are British sayings I’m unfamiliar with. What does this one mean, exactly, then?

[rrinker]

I am English and speak English, and 'Gaslightng' is very much a USA expression - it comes from a movie. Something to do with manipulating somebody to doubt their own sanity by denying something happened.

It's a bit like how Americans don't understand irony. "It's like rain on your wedding day", but only if you are a weather forcaster....

Alanis is Canadian, thank you very much 

[PlainName]

What does this one mean, exactly, then?

Amazingly, wiktionarythe Urban Dictionary gives as good an explanation as I could:

Midland exclamation at an unexpectedly good outcome of a bad situation

In this thread, I was noting that despite Heck's apparently atrocious soldering skills, the end result (a working board) was achieved.

[janoc]

As a non-native English speaker I will add that assuming someone understands your slang expression or a cultural reference "because it is English" is really foolish.

Assumed nationality aside, it also assumes a certain cultural background which simply may not be there - we didn't grow up in the same environment, we aren't watching the same movies and we often don't have the same cultural norms even if we speak the (supposedly) same language.

[tooki]

Since your reply is so polite I will treat it at face value and apologise for going off on one at you.

I accept that there are many dialects and variations, but 'English' is usually taken to mean the Queen's language as detailed by the OED. For something else it would be explicit: American English as detailed by Miriam Webster, for instance, except where some basic element is common. The particular phrase I used probably wouldn't be known away from England, though.

FWIW, your claim that “English = British English if not otherwise specified” is something I’ve heard countless British people say, but the remaining English-speaking world disagrees, as does the field of linguistics (which was my minor in university). Basically, when discussing a language with multiple major dialects, e.g. English or Spanish, then when you say [language name] without any qualifier, you mean generally for that language, regardless of dialect — the common basis, if you will. So for example, it’s totally correct to say “in English, the word for ‘3’ is ‘three’”, because it applies fully to all major dialects. In contrast, it woulldn’t really be correct to say “in English, the word for the storage compartment is called the boot”, because that’s not universally true.

Obviously, there’s no clear delineation for all situations, insofar as the existence of exceptions in minor dialects don’t violate the rules as such. (A linguist being precise might say, for example, that “in standard English, the plural of ‘you’ is ‘you’”, acknowledging that “y’all”, “youse”, “you’uns”, etc exist in various regional dialects, but aren’t considered officially correct.)

Anyway, to make a long story short, it’s best to say which dialect of English you mean, because depending on who you ask, “English” alone won’t necessarily be understood as what you think it means.

What does this one mean, exactly, then?

Amazingly, wiktionary gives as good an explanation as I could:

Midland exclamation at an unexpectedly good outcome of a bad situation

In this thread, I was noting that despite Heck's apparently atrocious soldering skills, the end result (a working board) was achieved.

Thanks for the explanation! I definitely don’t know most British regionalisms!

Indeed, it’s kinda miraculous that any of Heck’s soldered builds work. I have to imagine that many components suffer subtle damage that may affect their performance or longevity, despite working initially.

[PlainName]

it also assumes a certain cultural background which simply may not be there

Yes, hence why I questioned whether he was a native speaker to here, England. However, the expression seems to be more localised than I thought.

Nevertheless, the context of my post was in the demonstration that a lack of soldering skills isn't a showstopper (and seeing this encourages begineers). So the 'job' in this context is not the soldering per se but the working board at the end. Understanding that is surely basic English comprehension - a reason why it might not be appreciated, perhaps, is if someone jumped in mid-thread and commented on only that expression, ignoring the context surrounding it.

IMO, anyway

[eugenenine]

What was this thread about again?

[PlainName]

you mean generally for that language, regardless of dialect — the common basis, if you will

Yes, accepted.

[tooki]

it also assumes a certain cultural background which simply may not be there

Yes, hence why I questioned whether he was a native speaker to here, England. However, the expression seems to be more localised than I thought.

Nevertheless, the context of my post was in the demonstration that a lack of soldering skills isn't a showstopper (and seeing this encourages begineers). So the 'job' in this context is not the soldering per se but the working board at the end. Understanding that is surely basic English comprehension

Is it? I think it’s equally valid to understand the “job” as the task, not the workpiece. But that’s neither here nor there. (Indeed, since we were talking about his technique as such, I interpreted “job” to mean that, not the workpiece. Nobody was disputing that the thing worked nonetheless!)

Anyway, it’s not obvious at the surface level of the expression that it’s acknowledging the badness of the situation, so it sounds like it’s endorsing it. So while it might not have seemed like sarcasm to you, it came across that way to me, because without knowing the hidden meaning of the phrase, it is sarcastic!

[PlainName]

it came across that way to me, because without knowing the hidden meaning of the phrase, it is sarcastic!

OK. I will bear that in mind in future.

[kalel]

Someone mentioned tools, so I would like to voice my slightly off topic thoughts as a beginner that would probably fail at soldering all of those SMD parts properly (through hole is much more beginner friendly). I always like to see tutorials that mention how to do something that works with the cheapest gear available, rather than the more expensive perfection (expensive both tool-wise and experience wise) left to professionals. The point of the cheap gear is accessibility for beginners, which is different from professional/commercial work.