NASA unlikely to produce fully operational rocket engine of its own before 2020

[staxquad]

NASA says it’s unlikely to produce a fully operational rocket engine of its own before 2020.

USA banned from using Russian rocket engines
USA banned from the International Space Station
USA's 11 GPS stations in Russia terminated

Moscow to ban US from using Russian rocket engines for military launches.

Moscow is banning Washington from using Russian-made rocket engines, which the US has used to deliver its military satellites into orbit, said Russia’s Deputy PM, Dmitry Rogozin, who is in charge of space and defense industries.

“We proceed from the fact that without guarantees that our engines are used for non-military spacecraft launches only, we won’t be able to supply them to the US,” Rogozin is cited as saying by Interfax news agency.

If such guarantees aren’t provided the Russian side will also be unable to perform routine maintenance for the engines, which have been previously delivered to the US, he added.

The US relies on Russian-made RD-180 and NK-33 engines to launch military and civilian satellites into space, with NASA saying it’s unlikely to produce a fully operational rocket engine of its own before 2020.

The Deputy PM also announced that Russia is considering halting the operations of all American GPS stations on its territory, starting from June 1.

Such a measure would be employed if the US fails to decide on hosting stations for Russia’s space-based satellite navigation system, GLONASS, before May 31, he explained.

“We’re starting negotiations, which will last for three months. We hope that by the end of summer these talks will bring a solution that will allow our cooperation to be restored on the basis of parity and proportionality,” Rogozin said.

But if the negotiations turn out to be fruitless, operation of the 11 American GPS station in Russia will “be permanently terminated” from September 1, he warned.

According to Rogozin, Moscow also isn’t planning to agree to the US offer of prolonging operation of the International Space Station (ISS).

“We currently project that we’ll require the ISS until 2020,” he said. “We need to understand how much profit we’re making by using the station, calculate all the expenses and depending on the results decide what to do next.”

“A completely new concept for further space exploration” is currently being developed by the relevant Russian agencies, the official explained.

Previously, the US space agency, NASA, had asked Russia’s Roscosmos to keep the ISS in orbit till 2024.

Relations between Moscow and Washington have seriously deteriorated after the accession into Russia of the Ukrainian Republic of Crimea, which refused to recognize the new coup-imposed authority in Kiev.

The US and its EU partners have introduced several waves of sanctions against Russia, which have seen assets frozen and travel bans imposed on dozens of the country’s politicians and businessman, as well as the cessation of joint projects in different areas, including space.

However, Rogozin stressed that Russia will apply restrictive measures of its own only as a response to sanctions imposed by the West.

“We won’t be first to adopt sanctions, especially in the high-tech area. For us it is a matter of employment of our specialists,” he said.

[XOIIO]

Why are they banned from the ISS?

Too bad it seems to be falling apart, wish I could send some of my kerbals to help

[Phaedrus]

Sign. Load up the tanks, warm up the nukes, let's get this over with. Looks like it's 1979 again, folks.

[Wytnucls]

Boeing has scheduled their first unmanned test flight of commercial CST-100 for early 2017. Boeing is among a trio of American aerospace firms that are on a mission to restore America’s capability to fly humans to Earth orbit and the International Space Station. The trio includes SpaceX and Sierra Nevada Corp.

Chris Ferguson, commander of NASA’s final shuttle flight, is now spearheading the Boeing’s “space taxi” project as director of Crew and Mission Operations.

“It’s been over 1000 days and counting since we landed [on STS-135],” Ferguson noted.

The last shuttle flight (STS-135), commanded by Ferguson, was in July 2011. Since then no American astronauts have launched to space from American soil on American rockets and spaceships.

Since July 2011, American astronauts have been dependent on the Russian Soyuz capsule to shuttle them to and from the ISS. However, Ferguson and the Boeing team hope to change the situation, and soon.

The goal is to get Americans back into space from U.S. soil and provide reliable and cost-effective U.S. access to destinations in low Earth orbit like the ISS and the proposed private Bigelow space station.

Boeing has reserved a launch slot at Cape Canaveral with United Launch Alliance (ULA) for early 2017. The first flight of CST-100 will be unmanned. If all goes well, the maiden CST-100 orbital test flight with humans would follow around mid-2017.

[staxquad]

Replacing Russian Rocket Engine Isn’t Easy, Pentagon Says

The Pentagon has no “great solution” to reduce its dependence on a Russian-made engine that powers the rocket used to launch U.S. military satellites, the Defense Department’s top weapons buyer said.

“We don’t have a great solution,” Frank Kendall, the undersecretary of defense for acquisition, said yesterday after testifying before a Senate committee. “We haven’t made any decisions yet.”

Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel ordered the Air Force to review its reliance on the rocket engine after tensions over Russia’s takeover of Ukraine’s Crimea region prompted questions from lawmakers about that long-time supply connection. United Launch Alliance LLC, a partnership of Lockheed Martin Corp. (LMT) and Boeing Co. (BA), uses the Russian-made RD-180 engine on Atlas V rockets.

Among the options the Air Force is outlining for Hagel are building versions in the U.S. under an existing license from the Russian maker or depending only on Delta-class rockets that use another engine, Kendall said. The U.S. also could accelerate the certification of new companies to launch satellites that don’t use the Russian engine, he said.

Elon Musk, the billionaire owner of Space Exploration Technologies Corp., a Hawthorne, California-based company that’s trying to break into the military launch market, said at a March 5 congressional hearing that launches may be at risk because of dependence on the Russian engine.
‘Very Dependent’

SpaceX claimed in a complaint filed April 28 in the U.S. Court of Federal Claims in Washington that the Air Force illegally shut it out of the market for military satellite launches by giving a monopoly to the joint venture of Chicago-based Boeing and Bethesda, Maryland-based Lockheed. Musk’s company says the contract funnels money from U.S. taxpayers to Russia’s military industrial complex and potentially to those under U.S. sanctions because of the continuing Ukraine crisis.

SpaceX won a court order yesterday temporarily blocking the Air Force from buying the Russian rocket engines. Judge Susan Braden’s preliminary injunction doesn’t cover existing contracts or payments. Braden said her decision was reached after considering public interest, national defense and security concerns.

The Air Force review, which hasn’t been submitted to Hagel, found that the Russian company, NPO Energomash, is “very dependent on their sales to us,” Kendall said. “That company really needs the sales. From that side of it, we’re in pretty good shape.”
Two-Year Supply

The options for minimizing a cutoff have drawbacks, such as harnessing the time and know-how to build the engines in the U.S. and limited production capability for the Delta rocket, Kendall said.

The United Launch Alliance has stockpiled about a two-year supply of the engines based on the current planned satellite launch schedule, Pentagon spokeswoman Maureen Schumann said in an e-mail in March.

The joint venture is also taking delivery of five more engines this year, ULA spokeswoman Jessica Rye said in an e-mailed statement.

[staxquad]

Boeing has scheduled their first unmanned test flight of commercial CST-100 for early 2017. Boeing is among a trio of American aerospace firms that are on a mission to restore America’s capability to fly humans to Earth orbit and the International Space Station. The trio includes SpaceX and Sierra Nevada Corp.

Chris Ferguson, commander of NASA’s final shuttle flight, is now spearheading the Boeing’s “space taxi” project as director of Crew and Mission Operations.

“It’s been over 1000 days and counting since we landed [on STS-135],” Ferguson noted.

The last shuttle flight (STS-135), commanded by Ferguson, was in July 2011. Since then no American astronauts have launched to space from American soil on American rockets and spaceships.

Since July 2011, American astronauts have been dependent on the Russian Soyuz capsule to shuttle them to and from the ISS. However, Ferguson and the Boeing team hope to change the situation, and soon.

The goal is to get Americans back into space from U.S. soil and provide reliable and cost-effective U.S. access to destinations in low Earth orbit like the ISS and the proposed private Bigelow space station.

Boeing has reserved a launch slot at Cape Canaveral with United Launch Alliance (ULA) for early 2017. The first flight of CST-100 will be unmanned. If all goes well, the maiden CST-100 orbital test flight with humans would follow around mid-2017.

the 3 Americans stuck in the ISS right now can wait 4 or 5 years, no problem (their recurring on board movie is Gravity  )







but....since the Russians have 2 Cosmonauts there too, they'll probably all come back down together.

[dfmischler]

I would think the answer is to provide one of the Russian-made rocket engines to the Chinese, and tell them that we want to buy a million of them.  Within 5 years they will be all over ebay...

[Artlav]

I would think the answer is to provide one of the Russian-made rocket engines to the Chinese, and tell them that we want to buy a million of them.  Within 5 years they will be all over ebay...

Chinese already replicated many of our engine and spacecraft designs quite a while ago.
They also have operational manned rockets, unlike the USA.

However, they don't seem to like the idea of joining the ISS, or selling any of that tech.

[scientist]

I would think the answer is to provide one of the Russian-made rocket engines to the Chinese, and tell them that we want to buy a million of them.  Within 5 years they will be all over ebay...

Roscosmos already did that. Wanna know why Shenzhou looks like a scaled up Soyuz? it literally is.

[dannyf]

NASA says it’s unlikely to produce a fully operational rocket engine of its own before 2020.

It would surprise me if they do produce a (new) operational rocket before 2025 - they have one operational now.

Why are they banned from the ISS?

Those Neocons in the state department didn't quite think through, .

Ask Nuland.

However, they don't seem to like the idea of joining the ISS, or selling any of that tech.

The Chinese was not invited to join ISS, on the notion that inviting them could help their space industry, .

Some one failed to think more than a couple steps ahead.

[Kjelt]

Well that's what you get if you depend too much on one supplier.
This is true for businesses so why would it not be true for governments?

[G7PSK]

There is always the French and the Indians who have launch capabilities, otherwise it's a case of raiding the museums.

[vk6zgo]

I think the USA has plenty of capability to clone the old engines,or even the Russki ones,if they put their minds ,& will,to it!

I wonder who the genius  was,who decided to use the Russian ones,though----I bet he was showered with honours for saving money,at the time!

[wraper]

As Putin warned - apparently correctly...

 
“The US is certainly one of the world’s leaders. At some point it seemed that it was the only leader and a uni-polar system was in place. Today it appears that is not the case. Everything in the world is interdependent and once you try to punish someone, in the end you will cut off your nose to spite your face,” he said.

Well, but what US government did expect when overthrowing Ukraine government and later applying sanctions to Russia. That they will admit that US is so powerful and bow to them? That's not the case with Russians, they will always hit back.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=90c_1395058419

[Kjelt]

I think the USA has plenty of capability to clone the old engines,or even the Russki ones,if they put their minds ,& will,to it!

You might underestimate what this will take. I once saw a documentary about the apollo engines that were created from an enormous amount of experiments to find the right mixture, shape, fuelchamber proportions, size etc. etc. to create a stable rocketengine. They might clone this 1:1 but to make a smaller or larger version will take an equal amount of experiments since there is no proven simulation that works, still today they are unable to simulate this behaviour which I found quite interesting. We know a lot but still there are a lot of unknowns that only with practical experimentation can be created.
I think the real question is, why would any country spend billions of coins to still put some humans in space while a lot of their own people do not even have a roof over their head and food on the table 

[poorchava]

As Putin warned - apparently correctly...

 
“The US is certainly one of the world’s leaders. At some point it seemed that it was the only leader and a uni-polar system was in place. Today it appears that is not the case. Everything in the world is interdependent and once you try to punish someone, in the end you will cut off your nose to spite your face,” he said.

Well, but what US government did expect when overthrowing Ukraine government and later applying sanctions to Russia. That they will admit that US is so powerful and bow to them? That's not the case with Russians, they will always hit back.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=90c_1395058419

I wouldn't say that US have overthrown the Ukrainian government. Sure, they were not sad when angry mob removed the Russia's puppet from the seat, but I really doubt that they were the initiators.

[tszaboo]

So you are telling, that the USA lost the space race for the moment. That is not news. The only thing the USA was first was the moon landing, everything else the USSR did first. And that is basically only because the Nedelin catastrophe in 1960.
Maybe the CIA can steal the Buran's schematic, since the russians succesfully updated the stolen Space shuttle.
This whole thing is ridiculous.

[HP-ILnerd]

This is massively overblown.
Take away Atlas V and ULA still has Delta IV Medium and Delta IV Heavy.  This is a very impressive suite of vehicles.

As for motors, RS-68 and RS-25 are home-built, high performance in-production motors (LH2/LOX) which are very appropriate for high C3 type missions.
Not to mention SpaceX and Orbital are in the mix.  SpaceX in particular has rapidly ramping capability, and happen to make (in Merlin 1D) arguably the best RP/LOX
motor in the world.  If versatility is a criteria, then it is by far.

Taking away Atlas V sucks, because it's a nice rocket, but this is hardly a disaster.
Elon Musk did warn of exactly this quite recently:  http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/space/rockets/elon-musk-to-congress-heres-why-you-should-pick-spacex-16570920
If you want to skip dancing with the ad, the pertinent quote (in front of congress) is:

Elon Musk: "...What would make sense for long-term security is to phase out the Atlas IV, which depends on the Russian engine, have ULA operate the Delta family and SpaceX operate the Falcon family."

[Edited to remove a redundancy]

[SeanB]

While the USa did once have the ability to make big rocket engines, and still has the plans, the very important undocumented know how of how to assemble the things, test them and even how to make the parts has largely disappeared. Thus the large amount of looking at museum pieces to see how they were put together, and from what.

This is one of those products where you need a lot more than a list of the parts to put it together. You need a lot of care in welding ( not documented) and selection of material as well.

[HP-ILnerd]

SeanB>>While the USa did once have the ability to make big rocket engines, and still has the plans, the very important undocumented know how of how to assemble the things, test them and even how to make the parts has largely disappeared. Thus the large amount of looking at museum pieces to see how they were put together, and from what.<<

I find it impossible to agree.  The only liquid fuel motors the US ever built that were bigger than the currently in production US-Built RS-68 is the Saturn V's F-1!  The RS-68 is the most powerful LH2/LOX motor ever built!  Plus, the Delta IV family is in the exact same lifting class as Atlas V!  It can even carry more to LEO or GEO.  On the solid motor side, the SRB's for SLS are going to be the largest ever made.  (Please note, I'm not in any way suggesting that the use of an SRB on a manned vehicle is a good thing.)

Plus, as far as looking at old designs, they successfully resurrected J-2 from Apollo as the J-2X (even better than before).  This motor is going into SLS along with RS-25. 

Honestly, I'm not seeing a problem here.  No capability has been lost.  In fact, I'd agree with Musk that the US should have never depended on Atlas V because of the source of the motors.

[zapta]

Forget the Russians, NASA should not have a problem winning the Hack A Day competition.

They may have to remove Dave from the terrorist list though to improve their chances.

[scientist]

I recall they decided against putting J-2X in the Space Launch System, because they have enough RS-25s, but they're still using F-1B. That engine is batshit amazing.

I agree that this whole thread is a circlejerk for the NASA haters.

[staxquad]

I recall they decided against putting J-2X in the Space Launch System, because they have enough RS-25s, but they're still using F-1B. That engine is batshit amazing.

I agree that this whole thread is a circlejerk for the NASA haters.

"The Pentagon has no “great solution” to reduce its dependence on a Russian-made engine that powers the rocket used to launch U.S. military satellites, the Defense Department’s top weapons buyer said."

“We don’t have a great solution,” Frank Kendall, the undersecretary of defense for acquisition, said yesterday after testifying before a Senate committee. “We haven’t made any decisions yet.”

You don't work for the Pentagon, they don't know shit, but you do 

NASA just purchased a number of bouncy castles, will add seat belts so nobody falls out, and expect to lift off into space with them. 

Up, up, and away ... Strong winds blew the bouncy castle high off the ground with the kids inside it. (they fell out early enough to not be critically hurt)

[EEVblog]

Moscow is banning Washington from using Russian-made rocket engines, which the US has used to deliver its military satellites into orbit, said Russia’s Deputy PM, Dmitry Rogozin, who is in charge of space and defense industries.
“We proceed from the fact that without guarantees that our engines are used for non-military spacecraft launches only, we won’t be able to supply them to the US,” Rogozin is cited as saying by Interfax news agency.

Good. Teach the stupid Yanks a lesson. Effectively cancelling their manned space program, practically stifling the private US rocket industry, and going to the most ridiculous pie-in-the-sky long term rocket programs because of vested interests, and one of the dumbest things the US government has ever done.

[XOIIO]

Moscow is banning Washington from using Russian-made rocket engines, which the US has used to deliver its military satellites into orbit, said Russia’s Deputy PM, Dmitry Rogozin, who is in charge of space and defense industries.
“We proceed from the fact that without guarantees that our engines are used for non-military spacecraft launches only, we won’t be able to supply them to the US,” Rogozin is cited as saying by Interfax news agency.

Good. Teach the stupid Yanks a lesson. Effectively cancelling their manned space program, practically stifling the private US rocket industry, and going to the most ridiculous pie-in-the-sky long term rocket programs because of vested interests, and one of the dumbest things the US government has ever done.

The only bad part is that we won't be able to send things like the canadarm up as easily.