New (and better) GPS half the price of a new map!

[Circlotron]

  Used the five year old Garmin GPS the other day and it was telling me to go places on roads that had big concrete barriers that stopped me from changing lanes and turning off when it said so etc etc. Okay, time for a new map. Never been updated before. Had a look and they cost AUD$99 which is as much as we paid for the whole unit new. What is worse, a way better one with bigger higher definition screen and all sorts of extra functions on eBay was literally half the price at AUD$49! Do they really expect anyone is going to buy an updated map at that ridiculous price???

[georges80]

...more to the point... do people still use dedicated GPS units for vehicle navigation? 

Modern phones provide way so much more information and contextual information that a dedicated GPS is a dinosaur.

Case in point. This w/end I was in SF after getting off the local train (caltrain). Wanted to figure out what bus to catch. Opened my phone and it already knew from my geolocation info that I was standing at the bus/tram stop and then presented me with various bus/tram options to choose from and then had the departure times and the tram name and which stand to wait at. I can't imagine a Garmin unit providing anything close to that level of useful information. Cost of all this additional phone information - free.

With pushed map/points of interest info, updates are immediate and automatic. No way a dedicated GPS can keep up with features like that.

cheers,
george.

[retiredcaps]

My smartphone has no data plan, but google maps has an offline option.  I just download my city map onto my phone and if I have to go somewhere unplanned, the offline map works fine.  It also reads turn by turn instructions out loud so you don't have to stare at the smaller smartphone screen.

The offline maps have to be updated every 30 days or they expire, but it is free.  I just update my maps when at home with wifi.

[edpalmer42]

I thought all Garmin maps could be updated for free.  Is yours too old for that?

http://garmin.openstreetmap.nl/

Ed

[Circlotron]

Wow! Can't wait to get home from work and try that out!

[TK]

Garmin lifetime update map option is a robbery.  I purchased 5 years ago a GPS device with "lifetime" map updates... I assumed it was my lifetime but it is the device's lifetime.  And now the model I purchased is end-of-life, so no new free map updates. 

[Mr. Scram]

Garmin lifetime update map option is a robbery.  I purchased 5 years ago a GPS device with "lifetime" map updates... I assumed it was my lifetime but it is the device's lifetime.  And now the model I purchased is end-of-life, so no new maps. 

Most definitions of "lifetime" are not what the consumer would suppose it to be. Even calling Fluke's otherwise excellent warranty coverage "lifetime" seems misleading.

[Halcyon]

Garmin lifetime update map option is a robbery.  I purchased 5 years ago a GPS device with "lifetime" map updates... I assumed it was my lifetime but it is the device's lifetime.  And now the model I purchased is end-of-life, so no new maps. 

I can't say I had that problem. Years ago I bought two different Garmin GPS units and they still update fine. They mostly just sit in a drawer these days.

...more to the point... do people still use dedicated GPS units for vehicle navigation? 

Modern phones provide way so much more information and contextual information that a dedicated GPS is a dinosaur.

For the most part, that is very true. However I went travelling around New South Wales (a state in Australia) a few years ago and relied heavily on my old Garmin navigator. For the most part, I had no phone reception (and that's on Telstra with a high gain antenna) until we got near some kind of town.

Garmin's maps were very comprehensive and included even the smallest, bumpiest, dustiest "roads". On a few occasions the Garmin displayed roads which didn't appear on our Hema 4x4 navigator.

This was one of the main roads (apologies for the compression)...

Also attached is a photo of the town of Tilpa, NSW. It basically has petrol and diesel pumps and a pub.

[Mr. Scram]

For the most part, that is very true. However I went travelling around New South Wales (a state in Australia) a few years ago and relied heavily on my old Garmin navigator. For the most part, I had no phone reception (and that's on Telstra with a high gain antenna) until we got near some kind of town.

Garmin's maps were very comprehensive and included even the smallest, bumpiest, dustiest "roads". On a few occasions the Garmin displayed roads which didn't appear on our Hema 4x4 navigator.

This was one of the main roads (apologies for the compression)...

You don't need a mobile connection if you pick the right app. I've seen very small trails being on those maps too, sometimes even deceivingly so.

But yes, the quality of the map is important.

[georges80]

Garmin lifetime update map option is a robbery.  I purchased 5 years ago a GPS device with "lifetime" map updates... I assumed it was my lifetime but it is the device's lifetime.  And now the model I purchased is end-of-life, so no new maps. 

I can't say I had that problem. Years ago I bought two different Garmin GPS units and they still update fine. They mostly just sit in a drawer these days.

...more to the point... do people still use dedicated GPS units for vehicle navigation? 

Modern phones provide way so much more information and contextual information that a dedicated GPS is a dinosaur.

For the most part, that is very true. However I went travelling around New South Wales (a state in Australia) a few years ago and relied heavily on my old Garmin navigator. For the most part, I had no phone reception (and that's on Telstra with a high gain antenna) until we got near some kind of town.

Garmin's maps were very comprehensive and included even the smallest, bumpiest, dustiest "roads". On a few occasions the Garmin displayed roads which didn't appear on our Hema 4x4 navigator.

This was one of the main roads (apologies for the compression)...

Also attached is a photo of the town of Tilpa, NSW. It basically has petrol and diesel pumps and a pub.

Yeah, I'm an oz that lives/works in the US. So know the states and the very remote bush (I camp/4wd in the west oz bush when I'm back in Perth to visit).

Easy to download plenty of a state (WA is pretty big ) with google maps offline. But in reality I download oz topo maps to my tablet and/or smartphone (android devices). I've not bothered to use a Garmin GPS for a long long time. Garmin stuff is no match for modern android devices.

I also use backcountry navigator (and of course oziexplorer too) and have downloaded very large oz bush areas of bing aerial photography 'maps' with sufficient detail to see a building or vehicle in the bush and certainly very old/overgrown tracks. Again Garmin has nothing to match that capability for the cost of an app or two.

Hema is very low detail (other than roads/tracks that they have specifically driven on). The tracks that Hema covers are more like desert roads versus what I consider and old track...

cheers,
george.

[Beamin]

...more to the point... do people still use dedicated GPS units for vehicle navigation? 

Modern phones provide way so much more information and contextual information that a dedicated GPS is a dinosaur.

Case in point. This w/end I was in SF after getting off the local train (caltrain). Wanted to figure out what bus to catch. Opened my phone and it already knew from my geolocation info that I was standing at the bus/tram stop and then presented me with various bus/tram options to choose from and then had the departure times and the tram name and which stand to wait at. I can't imagine a Garmin unit providing anything close to that level of useful information. Cost of all this additional phone information - free.

With pushed map/points of interest info, updates are immediate and automatic. No way a dedicated GPS can keep up with features like that.

cheers,
george.

I like the stand alone for the bigger screen and how I can get a phone call and not lose gps.

[georges80]

...more to the point... do people still use dedicated GPS units for vehicle navigation? 

Modern phones provide way so much more information and contextual information that a dedicated GPS is a dinosaur.

Case in point. This w/end I was in SF after getting off the local train (caltrain). Wanted to figure out what bus to catch. Opened my phone and it already knew from my geolocation info that I was standing at the bus/tram stop and then presented me with various bus/tram options to choose from and then had the departure times and the tram name and which stand to wait at. I can't imagine a Garmin unit providing anything close to that level of useful information. Cost of all this additional phone information - free.

With pushed map/points of interest info, updates are immediate and automatic. No way a dedicated GPS can keep up with features like that.

cheers,
george.

I like the stand alone for the bigger screen and how I can get a phone call and not lose gps.

Android tablet + phone will give you constant map + phone as separate units. I run an 8" tablet - nice compromise that still fits nicely on the dash (near the A pillar). Phone is good to use when away from the tablet/vehicle. In the bush you can run the phone for a LONG time if you turn off the wifi/phone radios (since there'll likely be no signal out there anyway...).

cheers,
george.

[macboy]

I like the stand alone for the bigger screen and how I can get a phone call and not lose gps.

I'm afraid I can't relate to that. My phone has a 5.5" (140 mm) screen, and is 2x to 3x as big as that on either of my Garmins. The screen in my car is bigger, but I can use Android Auto to get the Google maps onto that screen when I want to.

Another huge advantage to using a phone as a GPS device, is that it acquires location much more quickly than a standalone. Any GPS receiver needs to know the satellite constellation before it can determine your location. On a standalone, this needs to be downloaded from one of the satellites using a very slow datastream sent by each satellite for this purpose. It takes at least several minutes, sometimes much longer if the GPS has no idea where or when it is. And if the reception from that particular satellite is interrupted, it might start all over again. A phone or tablet with a data connection can estimate its location and accurate time of day using WiFi and cellular networks, then download an accurate local constellation from the internet in a fraction of a second. GPS lock can follow mere seconds later.

Big screen, fast acquisition, superior battery life, .. add to that live traffic and road closure updates with automatic routing around issues, voice command and voice control, perpetual free up-to-date maps, and it's something I always have with my anyway. I'll never use my Garmin(s) again.

[tszaboo]

...more to the point... do people still use dedicated GPS units for vehicle navigation? 

Because the car's GPS works immediately. I love seeing other people sitting in a car for 5 minutes, trying to catch satellites. And it puts data on the HUD. And it has 4 times the screen estate. And police should put you in jail if you are playing on your phone instead of driving.

  Had a look and they cost AUD$99

I asked Toyota for an update for my maps. They qouted me few hundred euros. That is crazy, not the 99. You know, because they can.

[hans]

GPS can be just as distracting, e.g. if you're confused about the route.
Oh and so can phone calls be. So better take the call on the handsfree set, and keep your phone set to GPS. Better not call behind the wheel at all, by the way. It's way worse than having a conversation with a passenger, because he/she pace the conversation depending on what is happening on the road.

I like phone GPS because it also loads traffic and road closures information, also suggesting different routes in case of traffic jams (which is quite common around Amsterdam). Sure you can get this on premium GPS' which has have their own data plan; but I rather spend that money on a more highend smartphone which then does the same thing.

If your phone has trouble getting a GPS fix, then consider the GPS broken and get it fixed/a replacement phone.

With todays smartphones being 4.5 - 5" typically, there is little difference with a 5" or 6" GPS. Sure there is.. but if that's the only thing you're going for then I suggest getting an in-car GPS with a 10" screen.

So honestly I don't really see the point of yet another standalone device that needs it's own firmware updates, box, charger cables/port, etc.

[JPortici]

...more to the point... do people still use dedicated GPS units for vehicle navigation? 

i really wish they all used google maps + autovelox addon.
Instead, they all seem to rely either on tomtom, which always suggests retarded routes and NEVER updates it if you decide to go against it or you make a wrong turn, or on garmin which has inaccurate maps.

[woody]

Although I own an Android phone and know how to navigate with it I still use a number of dedicated GPS devices: in my car, on foot, on my bicycle and on my boat. There are a number of reasons why these dedicated devices are often much better than a phone solution:

- More rugged than any phone I know (including the CAT series). Dropping, shaking, vibrating, no problem.
- Completely waterproof, seawater proof.
- Good mounting facilities.
- Come with buttons you can press when wet, when wearing gloves, when in the dark.
- Real sunlight readable screens.
- Long battery times. My bike GPS runs up to 14 hours on a single set of alkaline batteries. Navigating all the while. I use my phone every now and then in navigation mode (Google Maps): <3 hours and the thing is bloody hot and very empty.
- When batteries are finally empty, just replace them. AA batteries can be found very cheap all over the world. No need to go run around in search of a charger (or even worse, carry a bloody heavy power bank everywhere you go)
- No unsolicited functionality changes in the software because someone somewhere decided that the app should do something new from now on.
- All the information, no more and no less, that you need for a particular mode of navigation in one device without having to add and/or switch apps.
- Use of the right maps for the occasion. Charts. Bicycle maps. Open Street maps.
- Ability to connect to larger navigation systems via a reliable 4800bps serial connection (boat GPS).
- Better (more sensitive) GPS receivers.
- Use of external antennae.
- Unambiguous position display. I don't know how to get a lat/lon position out of a Smartphone without installing yet another app.
- In the case of car navigation, tightly integrated traffic information.
- And, although nobody seems to worry nowadays, the inherent lack of privacy leaks in a not-connected device.

Unfortunately companies like Garmin see the writing on the wall as voiced in this thread and roll on their backs by making their devices more and more 'smartphone' like with WiFi, Bluetooth and features like 'sharing your routes' or 'go see where I am'. Stupid decision if you ask me; they already lost that fight. I say go build good and task-dedicated GPS units and I'll keep buying 'm.

[CatalinaWOW]

Smartphones are great, and I use mine a lot for navigation.  But I still like the dedicated unit for a variety of reasons.

Larger display, better display of information relative to driving.  I know there is probably a good app out there somewhere, but the search for the perfect app is not on my top ten to do list.

Better mount.  Same story - there is probably a good mount for my phone available, but by the time I find it I will probably have changed phones.

Second opinion.  In most cases the dedicated GPS and Google maps agree.  Great.  When they don't I know to watch for trouble or plan an alternate route.  I drive on remote trails in the boonies a lot, and one or the other on several occasions has identified a road that is closed, decommissioned, never got built or whatever.

[tooki]

...more to the point... do people still use dedicated GPS units for vehicle navigation? 

Because the car's GPS works immediately. I love seeing other people sitting in a car for 5 minutes, trying to catch satellites. And it puts data on the HUD. And it has 4 times the screen estate. And police should put you in jail if you are playing on your phone instead of driving.

Oops, I think we need to make a clear distinction between in-dash navigation systems and standalone portable dedicated GPS units. The advantages you list are those of the in-dash systems, which use the car battery to always keep the GPS receiver updated with the current GPS almanac and ephemeris data, so that getting a fix happens quickly. (On some it's instant, by it updating the fix periodically even when the car is off. In others it takes a minute, until it has found enough satellites to get a fix.)

In contrast, the handheld GPS units, if they haven't been turned on for 4 hours, must first download the almanac and ephemeris, which takes up to 12.5 minutes (50 bits per second!), and once they have it, can still take a minute to find enough satellites to get a fix.

Mobile phones use Assisted GPS, which use the data connection to download the almanac and ephemeris quickly, as well as being able to use cell tower and wifi geolocation to get a rough fix, which supposedly allows the accurate GPS fix to be obtained much more quickly. (At minumum, it gets you a rough fix to show while the GPS fix is pending.)

I wouldn't be surprised if some in-dash navigation systems use Assisted GPS now, too, since some have data connections. (Like the GM ones with OnStar.)

I asked Toyota for an update for my maps. They qouted me few hundred euros. That is crazy, not the 99. You know, because they can.

Yep. My parents paid about CHF400/$400 to update the maps in their Volvo a few years back. Obviously they didn't update yearly, but just once in the lifetime of the car, once there were just too many missing changes to ignore.

Shockingly, there's rampant piracy of the map DVDs for OEM navigation systems. I just can't quite put my finger on why... 

[tooki]

Larger display, better display of information relative to driving.  I know there is probably a good app out there somewhere, but the search for the perfect app is not on my top ten to do list.

Data like what?

FWIW, my navigation app of choice when driving in the Americas is Waze (owned by Google, FYI). It's unusually good at navigating around traffic snarls (though its lead has shrunk appreciably, as Google Maps, Apple Maps/TomTom etc have improved their live traffic dramatically over the years). But what's really nice is how it informs you of obstacles that other users have reported, like debris on the road and stopped cars, as well as speed traps and whatnot. I leave it open (with no destination entered) all the time. (It also has a nice turn-by-turn mode for when you know the route anyway, so it doesn't tell you directions except if you miss a turn, or if a change in traffic warrants changing to a different route.)

[IanMacdonald]

Blocked roads are a huge problem everywhere, and I don't know of any  mapping service that shows them correctly.

Worst is a local road with a 'bus gate.' This road is still shown on Google Maps as a through route,  and it still has its official 'advisory route' designation number even on the Ordnance Survey site. In other words, you are actually advised to take this road rather than others in the area. Yet, if you were to drive through it you would be fined.

They reckon this 'bus gate' has collected over a million in fines in just over a year.  Which might well be the reason why they haven't told the mapping authorities to remove the through-route designation. Nice little earner, that's why.   

I'd laugh heartily if someone sued the pants off them over not notifying OS. 

[Halcyon]

Yep. My parents paid about CHF400/$400 to update the maps in their Volvo a few years back. Obviously they didn't update yearly, but just once in the lifetime of the car, once there were just too many missing changes to ignore.

Ouch! On newer models (post-2014), map updates are free and the Volvo dealers might even update it for you as part of the service while they do the rest of the vehicle software. You can even download international maps if you want.

[tooki]

Blocked roads are a huge problem everywhere, and I don't know of any  mapping service that shows them correctly.

I think you really should try Waze. You may be surprised at just how good crowdsourced data is.

I checked my neighborhood in it now, and it’s got all the local road closures that I’m aware of. But that’s not surprising in an app that correctly informs you of potholes and debris in the road (like a tire tread).

Worst is a local road with a 'bus gate.' This road is still shown on Google Maps as a through route,  and it still has its official 'advisory route' designation number even on the Ordnance Survey site. In other words, you are actually advised to take this road rather than others in the area. Yet, if you were to drive through it you would be fined.

They reckon this 'bus gate' has collected over a million in fines in just over a year.  Which might well be the reason why they haven't told the mapping authorities to remove the through-route designation. Nice little earner, that's why.   

I'd laugh heartily if someone sued the pants off them over not notifying OS. 

I’d be curious as to what Waze says about it.

I’d also be curious as to what a judge would say if this somehow ended up on their bench!

Ouch! On newer models (post-2014), map updates are free and the Volvo dealers might even update it for you as part of the service while they do the rest of the vehicle software. You can even download international maps if you want.

Well, once everyone got smartphones anyway, they realized they couldn’t extort you for maps any more. That car was a... 2006 maybe? I don’t remember. They replaced it with a VW now.

[tom66]

Just use Google Maps, or Waze, or numerous other smartphone apps; they stay up to date, no need to update the hardware or faff around with various map formats.

[randsl]

Just use Google Maps, or Waze, or numerous other smartphone apps; they stay up to date, no need to update the hardware or faff around with various map formats.

Agree, but the usefullness and the reliability highly depends on the phone's gps module. I had a Samsung Galaxy S4 and can't remember the no. of times I got lost because of that piece of s**t. GPS stops working suddenly and does not come up until you restart the phone. 

First I thought that it's only my phone, seems a common problem for Samsung S4.

So I always keep a conventional GPS for backup when traveling far away from hometown...