Author Topic: New Physics  (Read 11640 times)

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Offline CatalinaWOWTopic starter

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New Physics
« on: March 14, 2017, 02:49:32 am »
Forget your van de Graf machines, your Tesla coils and the like and throw breakdown voltage concerns to the wind.

Ebay gets you 60 million volts in a compact package.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/24-VIPERTEK-VTS-880-60-Million-Volt-Mini-Stun-Gun-3-Colors-Mix-Wholesale-Lot-/221243834311?hash=item338328ffc7:g:OQIAAOSwofxUbu08
 

Offline CatalinaWOWTopic starter

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Re: New Physics
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2017, 02:52:00 am »
 

Offline TerraHertz

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Re: New Physics
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2017, 03:38:38 am »
That's not new physics, just old style lies.
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Offline calexanian

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Re: New Physics
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2017, 06:09:23 am »
This is what I use for leak detecting when I am pumping vacuum tubes.

[url]http://www.electrotechnicproducts.com/bd-10as-high-frequency-generator[//url]

I don't know how many jiggavolts it puts out, but it will jump a 6" arc through air easily. Touch any part of a flouro tube and it will light up. Give you one hell of a jolt if it decides you are the best path to earth too, but they are actually quite safe to use if you use it properly.
Charles Alexanian
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Online David Hess

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Re: New Physics
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2017, 06:09:56 am »
For when you absolutely positively have to stun the whole room.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: New Physics
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2017, 06:24:01 am »
But wait - if 60 Megavolts doesn't float your boat, how about 230?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VIPERTEK-VTS-989-230-Million-Volt-Self-Defense-Stun-Gun-LED-Wholesale-Lot-/310693105059?hash=item4856c08da3:g:vK4AAOSw2XFUgUDi

If the actual voltage was anywhere near the claim - I wouldn't want to be holding it when the switch is flicked.
 

Offline R005T3r

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Re: New Physics
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2017, 12:05:32 pm »
People don't realize that they should never buy an item like that on ebay, because they might be regulated as proper firearms...
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: New Physics
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2017, 09:43:04 pm »
People don't realize that they should never buy an item like that on ebay, because they might be regulated as proper firearms...

In the UK that is, by definition in the Firearms Act 1968, a firearm. Specifically a prohibited weapon under section 5 of the Firearms Act 1968. Unlawful possession of section 5 prohibited weapons attracts mandatory minimum jail sentences. Unlike other 'proper' firearms, civilians cannot get a licence to possess a section 5 weapon which also includes automatic weapons, missiles, grenade launchers and assorted other weapons (and I believe, technically, nuclear weapons).
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Offline CatalinaWOWTopic starter

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Re: New Physics
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2017, 10:17:36 pm »
People don't realize that they should never buy an item like that on ebay, because they might be regulated as proper firearms...

In the UK that is, by definition in the Firearms Act 1968, a firearm. Specifically a prohibited weapon under section 5 of the Firearms Act 1968. Unlawful possession of section 5 prohibited weapons attracts mandatory minimum jail sentences. Unlike other 'proper' firearms, civilians cannot get a licence to possess a section 5 weapon which also includes automatic weapons, missiles, grenade launchers and assorted other weapons (and I believe, technically, nuclear weapons).

This is interesting, as is almost all legislation in all countries.  So an intentionally non-lethal weapon is more tightly restricted than 'proper' but fully lethal weapons.  And apparently cattle prods and electric fences are not used in the UK cattle industry.

 

Online IanB

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Re: New Physics
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2017, 11:10:45 pm »
People don't realize that they should never buy an item like that on ebay, because they might be regulated as proper firearms...

In the UK that is, by definition in the Firearms Act 1968, a firearm. Specifically a prohibited weapon under section 5 of the Firearms Act 1968. Unlawful possession of section 5 prohibited weapons attracts mandatory minimum jail sentences. Unlike other 'proper' firearms, civilians cannot get a licence to possess a section 5 weapon which also includes automatic weapons, missiles, grenade launchers and assorted other weapons (and I believe, technically, nuclear weapons).

I do not see where that would come under the Firearms Act 1968, which seems to be exclusively concerned with projectile weapons. Which part of the Act applies to it?
 

Offline Codebird

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Re: New Physics
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2017, 11:23:23 pm »
A friend and I own an 'amgibuous firearm.' It's a hybrid electro-gas cannon we built to test out a design idea, expecting it to throw a copper test slug a few meters. In practice it blows the barrel up after two shots, takes chunks out of concrete, and has yet to land a projectile anywhere we can actually find it. The muzzle energy is impossible to measure because on our high-speed camera the blur is to fast to follow.

We decided to disassemble the device just in case, as we don't know if it's legal or not. There's just no law regulating a 'weapon' of that nature - the closest we can think of would be a spud gun.

It works by using a four-kilovolt capacitor bank to flash-boil salt water in the base of the barrel. The resulting steam explosion then propels the projectile forwards. And the barrel outwards. And the breach backwards, having usually separated it from the barrel. It's completely impractical as a weapon though, as it can only fire straight up (or the water runs out the barrel) and it has to be tethered to some bulky capacitors.
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: New Physics
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2017, 11:29:17 pm »

This is interesting, as is almost all legislation in all countries.  So an intentionally non-lethal weapon is more tightly restricted than 'proper' but fully lethal weapons.  And apparently cattle prods and electric fences are not used in the UK cattle industry.

Electric fences, yes those are in use; but that's hardly a portable 'weapon'. An electric cattle prod could be, but I have never seen one in use in the UK. Just not British stuffing 10 kV up Daisy's bum. A slap on the backside and "Move along ol' gal" is more Farmer Brown's style.

That said, the advice for crown prosecutors says that cattle prods would not normally be treated as prohibited weapons for possession offences. Where one was deliberately used as an offensive weapon then I suspect that a sensible view would be taken as to whether the use as a weapon was merely incidental in innocent possession of the device (say, a farmer on his own land), or whether it was acquired with intent to use it as a weapon, where I imagine a possession offence would probably be charged.

The history of electroshock weapons ending up as Section 5 prohibited weapons is interesting. Originally electroshock weapons were not legislated for. The part of Section 5 used to cover them applies to "5 1 (b) any weapon of whatever description designed or adapted for the discharge of any noxious liquid, gas or other thing" and was originally written to cover the use of water pistols filled with ammonia solution, an old bank robber's favourite when ammonia was a common household chemical and, if caught, avoided a prosecution for robbery with a firearm. Thus the intent was to treat this tactic as seriously as a real firearm. Then someone somewhere used an electroshock weapon and case law decided that electricity could be a "noxious liquid, gas or other thing".

As to "intentionally non-lethal weapon" - given there are reported deaths from the use of electroshock weapons I think we can only accept "less-lethal". And further, as to "more tightly restricted than 'proper' but fully lethal weapons", I think it's closer to say as tightly restricted as more lethal weapons for all practical purposes. Remember, the only real firearms that a 'civilian' can lawfully possess in the UK are single shot target or hunting rifles and single and double barrelled shotguns. No handguns and no repeating weapons, and all weapons and all ammunition require a license which will always carry conditions on where weapons are stored, where they are used and how much ammunition may be purchased or possessed at any time.

To put things into perspective, there were in March 2015 582,494 shotgun certificates and 153,603 firearm certificates covering 1,338,399 shotguns and 525,125 firearms in existence. That covers every farmer, pest controller, sporting shooter and shooting club in the country. Even spread out among the population that's one 'firearm' for every 34 people and some 'firearms' that might be covered by a certificate are not what one might traditionally think of as a firearm such as a line throwing gun. In practice, regular contact with, or experience with, firearms is much, much less common than that 1 in 34 overall figure might suggest. Basically, 'proper' firearms are exceedingly rare in the UK.
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: New Physics
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2017, 11:33:01 pm »
People don't realize that they should never buy an item like that on ebay, because they might be regulated as proper firearms...

In the UK that is, by definition in the Firearms Act 1968, a firearm. Specifically a prohibited weapon under section 5 of the Firearms Act 1968. Unlawful possession of section 5 prohibited weapons attracts mandatory minimum jail sentences. Unlike other 'proper' firearms, civilians cannot get a licence to possess a section 5 weapon which also includes automatic weapons, missiles, grenade launchers and assorted other weapons (and I believe, technically, nuclear weapons).

I do not see where that would come under the Firearms Act 1968, which seems to be exclusively concerned with projectile weapons. Which part of the Act applies to it?

Section 5 1 (b) "any weapon of whatever description designed or adapted for the discharge of any noxious liquid, gas or other thing", as in the discharge of lots of electrons. See above for the history of this.
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Online IanB

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Re: New Physics
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2017, 11:37:39 pm »
The history of electroshock weapons ending up as Section 5 prohibited weapons is interesting. Originally electroshock weapons were not legislated for. The part of Section 5 used to cover them applies to "5 1 (b) any weapon of whatever description designed or adapted for the discharge of any noxious liquid, gas or other thing" and was originally written to cover the use of water pistols filled with ammonia solution, an old bank robber's favourite when ammonia was a common household chemical and, if caught, avoided a prosecution for robbery with a firearm. Thus the intent was to treat this tactic as seriously as a real firearm. Then someone somewhere used an electroshock weapon and case law decided that electricity could be a "noxious liquid, gas or other thing".

The loophole here would seem to be whether a particular device is a "weapon" or a "tool" or merely a "curiosity"? I would imagine that if something was not designed to be used as a weapon, and was not used or possessed with the intent of being a weapon, then the prosecution would have to find some way to argue that the device contravenes the Act.
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: New Physics
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2017, 12:25:36 am »
The history of electroshock weapons ending up as Section 5 prohibited weapons is interesting. Originally electroshock weapons were not legislated for. The part of Section 5 used to cover them applies to "5 1 (b) any weapon of whatever description designed or adapted for the discharge of any noxious liquid, gas or other thing" and was originally written to cover the use of water pistols filled with ammonia solution, an old bank robber's favourite when ammonia was a common household chemical and, if caught, avoided a prosecution for robbery with a firearm. Thus the intent was to treat this tactic as seriously as a real firearm. Then someone somewhere used an electroshock weapon and case law decided that electricity could be a "noxious liquid, gas or other thing".

The loophole here would seem to be whether a particular device is a "weapon" or a "tool" or merely a "curiosity"? I would imagine that if something was not designed to be used as a weapon, and was not used or possessed with the intent of being a weapon, then the prosecution would have to find some way to argue that the device contravenes the Act.

Whether it was a weapon or not is a question of fact and intent wouldn't be an issue if a court found that it was, as a fact, designed, or made or modified to be a weapon. English law is always quite clear whether intent is a necessary part of an offence, as you can see from the rest of the Act.

Whether something would be deemed a weapon if it is not ipso facto a weapon but was used with intent as a weapon is a different case. I suspect it would - there is a parallel in the law regarding possession of an offensive weapon. So in the case of Farmer Giles owning a cattle prod, that would be legal. Owning a cattle prod and walking with it to the pub in order to give Farmer Brown a piece of his mind with said prod might well lead to a firearms possession offence but would require proof of the intent.

There's a parallel with a rolled up magazine. I can walk down the road with one with impunity. However, if I walk down the road with a rolled up magazine with the intent of using it as an offensive weapon then I commit the offence of "possessing an offensive weapon in a public place" contrary to section 1 of the Prevention of Crime Act 1953 because of the definition of offensive weapon in section 4: "“ offensive weapon ” means any article made or adapted for use for causing injury to the person, or intended by the person having it with him for such use by him".

Even if you didn't get busted for the firearms offence you'd get busted for the offensive weapon offence as long as it was a public place and they could prove intent.

Footnote: It's amazing how much law you can learn from being cajoled into helping a law student girlfriend revise for her 2nd year criminal law, jurisprudence and constitutional law exams (back in 1979 no less!). Most of this came from memory and I just had to find the text of the acts to ensure that I was quoting accurately.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 12:28:53 am by Cerebus »
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Offline nitro2k01

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Re: New Physics
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2017, 12:35:07 am »
Sssixty million volts...
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Offline PointyOintment

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Re: New Physics
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2017, 11:30:05 am »
The two listings linked at the start of the thread now claim 90 MV and 500 MV, respectively. :-DD
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Offline CatalinaWOWTopic starter

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Re: New Physics
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2017, 04:02:11 pm »

This is interesting, as is almost all legislation in all countries.  So an intentionally non-lethal weapon is more tightly restricted than 'proper' but fully lethal weapons.  And apparently cattle prods and electric fences are not used in the UK cattle industry.

Electric fences, yes those are in use; but that's hardly a portable 'weapon'. An electric cattle prod could be, but I have never seen one in use in the UK. Just not British stuffing 10 kV up Daisy's bum. A slap on the backside and "Move along ol' gal" is more Farmer Brown's style.

That said, the advice for crown prosecutors says that cattle prods would not normally be treated as prohibited weapons for possession offences. Where one was deliberately used as an offensive weapon then I suspect that a sensible view would be taken as to whether the use as a weapon was merely incidental in innocent possession of the device (say, a farmer on his own land), or whether it was acquired with intent to use it as a weapon, where I imagine a possession offence would probably be charged.

The history of electroshock weapons ending up as Section 5 prohibited weapons is interesting. Originally electroshock weapons were not legislated for. The part of Section 5 used to cover them applies to "5 1 (b) any weapon of whatever description designed or adapted for the discharge of any noxious liquid, gas or other thing" and was originally written to cover the use of water pistols filled with ammonia solution, an old bank robber's favourite when ammonia was a common household chemical and, if caught, avoided a prosecution for robbery with a firearm. Thus the intent was to treat this tactic as seriously as a real firearm. Then someone somewhere used an electroshock weapon and case law decided that electricity could be a "noxious liquid, gas or other thing".

As to "intentionally non-lethal weapon" - given there are reported deaths from the use of electroshock weapons I think we can only accept "less-lethal". And further, as to "more tightly restricted than 'proper' but fully lethal weapons", I think it's closer to say as tightly restricted as more lethal weapons for all practical purposes. Remember, the only real firearms that a 'civilian' can lawfully possess in the UK are single shot target or hunting rifles and single and double barrelled shotguns. No handguns and no repeating weapons, and all weapons and all ammunition require a license which will always carry conditions on where weapons are stored, where they are used and how much ammunition may be purchased or possessed at any time.

To put things into perspective, there were in March 2015 582,494 shotgun certificates and 153,603 firearm certificates covering 1,338,399 shotguns and 525,125 firearms in existence. That covers every farmer, pest controller, sporting shooter and shooting club in the country. Even spread out among the population that's one 'firearm' for every 34 people and some 'firearms' that might be covered by a certificate are not what one might traditionally think of as a firearm such as a line throwing gun. In practice, regular contact with, or experience with, firearms is much, much less common than that 1 in 34 overall figure might suggest. Basically, 'proper' firearms are exceedingly rare in the UK.

No getting around lawyers anywhere.  The fact remains that the less lethal stun device is more controlled (you can't get a license) than the more lethal (yes, many people do survive gunshot wounds) single shot firearms and shotguns.  For which several hundred thousand have been issued.

I am not really faulting UK law.  In many ways I envy you.  You have retained freedoms which we have lost here in the US.  I used the word interesting intentionally.  Law in my country and in many other countries (I would suggest all) has many interesting features.  For me the word covers everything from logical inconsistencies to violations of physical law, with stops in between for strange focus on different behaviors in different locals.

The discussion on intent makes the laws murkier, but potentially fairer.  And provides a good window into the law profession from my point of view as an outsider.  A constant attempt to codify the uncodifiable.  With substantial success and glaring failures.
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: New Physics
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2017, 05:30:38 pm »
No getting around lawyers anywhere.  The fact remains that the less lethal stun device is more controlled (you can't get a license) than the more lethal (yes, many people do survive gunshot wounds) single shot firearms and shotguns.  For which several hundred thousand have been issued.

There is technically a way to get a license, be authorised by the defence council, but in practice that just doesn't happen except for the police and military (this is the basis on which the police can carry Tazers).

The whole situation is a common one in UK law. Something new comes along that wasn't foreseen by legislators when they introduced a law and so the common law takes over and tries to make sense of it. Where the existing law has a provision that, with a little creative thinking, could be thought to apply to the 'new thing' then that is what gets used even if, in hindsight, it ought to have its own, more precisely defined, place in law. Thus a precedent is set, and the law moves on subtly modified.

Electroshock weapons just about fitted section 5 so they got squeezed in there and became 'firearms' and 'prohibited weapons' for which mere possession is an offence, instead of 'offensive weapons' which requires you to have them in a public place before mere possession becomes an offence. I agree that they properly ought to have their own place in the scheme of things that more accurately reflects their relative lethality.

Although in theory under the common law system the courts can create law de novo, nowadays they are highly reluctant to in a way they were not in the past. For instance, cheat is a common law offence and there is no equivalent statutory law, it was created purely by a judge recognizing that "here is something that should be treated as a criminal act". It is still used, by sheer chance I know someone (a lawyer no less) who was jailed for "common law cheat" for making the taxman less money than the taxman thought he ought to have. In a situation like that you really don't know who to cheer for - couldn't the judge have jailed the taxman as well, just on principal?  >:D

Older legislation is often, in my opinion, better drafted, and takes more care over filling the gaps that might appear by new technologies etc. appearing. Older law tended to be based on principles of good or bad behaviour, newer law tends to focus on banning the things that might be used for bad behaviour. The Offences Against The Person Act 1861 stood as the primary legislation that covered everything from assault to rape and murder for well over a hundred years because it covered behaviour. By contrast we've had about 4 acts in the last 20 years that cover exactly what kind of knife it's legal to possess in a public place because we now focus on things rather than actions and intent.

I have a suspicion that the rot set in the '60s when sociological ideas about language became fashionable. Things like "If you don't know bad words you can't have bad thoughts", so by extension "if you don't have bad things you can't perform bad acts". Which is clearly arrant nonsense, but I have a suspicion that a quietly internalised version of this has made its way into lawmaking (along with a streak of Calvinistic disapproval of fun). I don't think it's mere coincidence that I could now probably get into more legal trouble for using the wrong word or words on Twitter than I probably would if I hit someone in a bar.

Clearly, I find the whole process fascinating too.
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Online David Hess

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Re: New Physics
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2017, 06:15:21 pm »
No getting around lawyers anywhere.  The fact remains that the less lethal stun device is more controlled (you can't get a license) than the more lethal (yes, many people do survive gunshot wounds) single shot firearms and shotguns.  For which several hundred thousand have been issued.

This has happened in the US as well.  We now have split court decisions upholding prohibition of less than lethal weapons and protecting them under our 2nd Amendment which makes an odd sort of sense because now we also have split court decisions both protecting weapons useful for a militia and and forbidding weapons useful for a militia.

A couple years ago we had a case in Kansas which had and has both legal bearing of firearms and a stand your ground law where defensive use of a firearm is a legal defense.  The result was someone who only "threatened" lethal force by blandishing their firearm, which resolved the situation without any injury, was convicted of a felony in a situation where had he used lethal force without warning, he would have been protected by law.  The law literally required him to use the firearm and attempt to shoot the attacker rather than warning the attacker off and that was how the prosecutor and courts saw it.  The prosecutor even saw it that way after the legislature fixed the law and made it retroactive for that specific incident.
 

Offline Neilm

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Re: New Physics
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2017, 07:18:01 pm »

There is technically a way to get a license, be authorised by the defence council, but in practice that just doesn't happen except for the police and military (this is the basis on which the police can carry Tazers).

Or private companies who work in the defence business. I used to work for such a company and on several occasions had to grin going to the workshop and asking for a machine gun.
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: New Physics
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2017, 08:11:08 pm »

There is technically a way to get a license, be authorised by the defence council, but in practice that just doesn't happen except for the police and military (this is the basis on which the police can carry Tazers).

Or private companies who work in the defence business. I used to work for such a company and on several occasions had to grin going to the workshop and asking for a machine gun.

There's a long list of people who are exempted from various firearms licensing requirements including carriers, auctioneers,  I think warehousemen and quite obviously registered firearms dealers and manufacturers. The latter two get a long list of records they must keep instead.
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Offline apelly

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Re: New Physics
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2017, 08:48:03 pm »
Interesting thread of the day award! Thanks for the law review guys.

This is what I use for leak detecting when I am pumping vacuum tubes.

http://www.electrotechnicproducts.com/bd-10as-high-frequency-generator

I don't know how many jiggavolts it puts out, but it will jump a 6" arc through air easily. Touch any part of a flouro tube and it will light up. Give you one hell of a jolt if it decides you are the best path to earth too, but they are actually quite safe to use if you use it properly.
Remind me how this works please, someone... I've seen it done on youtube, but it escapes me right now.

Also, the link says it's useful for detecting pinholes in linings and tanks. Are we holding a ground probe on the other side of the material for this process?
 

Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: New Physics
« Reply #23 on: March 17, 2017, 06:09:45 pm »
Wow you'd think that would arc internally.  Those numbers can't be close to being real.

Or maybe they're just using alternate physics.  :-DD
 

Offline donotdespisethesnake

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Re: New Physics
« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2017, 12:24:03 pm »
they are actually quite safe to use if you use it properly.

Everything is safe if used properly, by definition.

The possible exception is weapons or explosives, however generally even those are designed to be safe for the operator. I guess the ultimate exception are suicide devices, which could genuinely carry the warning "this device is dangerous to the operator when used properly"
Bob
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