Author Topic: Older engineers  (Read 27855 times)

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Offline free_electron

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Re: Older engineers
« Reply #25 on: September 03, 2013, 04:36:25 am »
Like i said, it was a mutual agreement ...
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Offline Dr. Frank

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Re: Older engineers
« Reply #26 on: September 03, 2013, 05:03:06 am »
Like i said, it was a mutual agreement ...

You're right, nobody else than Bob Pease and the management of former National management did know the details..
And Bob Pease was a real gentleman, obviously, to keep that as a secret.
 
In our company, during the so called 'crisis' in 2009, it was in fact a sales-crisis, there were also 'mutual agreements' in the engineering, which meant that people had to leave the company (a more noble expression for that procedure) and received a dismissal wage.

Very logical! And the effect?

In the next two years we could not finish one big project in time, and that same management had to hire engineers from foreign sites to get it running.

Great deal!
« Last Edit: September 03, 2013, 06:29:03 am by Dr. Frank »
 

Offline Tris20Topic starter

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Re: Older engineers
« Reply #27 on: September 03, 2013, 03:33:42 pm »
I take it the Brian Reid reference was related to his loss of stock options at Google?

Getting quite an interesting mix of stories here.

Sounds like when my lifeclock goes red I'll need to hit the books and/or aim for a consultancy role.

Not quite the career-span I had in mind tbh. I know starting salaries for EE grads are about £22-27k. I graduate at 28 so that gives me only about 12-22 years in the field  :--
 

Online edavid

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Re: Older engineers
« Reply #28 on: September 03, 2013, 03:34:02 pm »
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Like i said, it was a mutual agreement ...

But exactly what does that mean to you?  Even when someone gets involuntarily laid off, it's common to require the employee to sign a fancy contract to get the severance benefits.  Well, once they signed it, it's a mutual agreement, right?  But, in this case, there's the additional evidence that Bob was not unhappy with the deal.

Quote
And Bob Pease was a real gentleman, obviously, to keep that as a secret.

He was a gentleman, but most buyout contracts have a "confidentiality clause" that says you can't disclose the terms.  (Does anyone know if these have been tested in court?)
 

Online edavid

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Re: Older engineers
« Reply #29 on: September 03, 2013, 03:36:56 pm »
I take it the Brian Reid reference was related to his loss of stock options at Google?

Related to his getting fired by Google for being too old!
 

Offline M0BSW

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Re: Older engineers
« Reply #30 on: September 03, 2013, 03:55:27 pm »
It's the same in every industry, I've been driving semi- trucks for 38 Years , and have always had a clean licence, the bosses are not interested in me, I not dynamic, in their portfolio here in the UK, the dynamic one's are Polish that don't have a problem in breaking the law, and will haul anything  dangerous  without the proper licences  I have 6 Years left to suffer , and it can't come quick enough.
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Offline Tris20Topic starter

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Re: Older engineers
« Reply #31 on: September 03, 2013, 05:36:05 pm »
Yeah I'd notice he was fired. It was more that it lead to his losing of shares that were estimated at $10mill. I'd happily take that to be laid off!

This isn't sounding too promising, yet I guess we need to bear in mind that there's only been a small number of responses so far and so the sample pool is quite low. Therefore we're not going to get an accurate description of the situation. It's good to see some people have managed to turn it around into a positive thing by making using of other opportunities.
 

Offline woodchips

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Re: Older engineers
« Reply #32 on: September 04, 2013, 09:46:02 am »
This is pretty gloomy. Like M0BSW I had had enough of where I worked and grabbed a redundancy option. This was over 20 years ago and I was going to do consultancy in DSPs and similar. As it happened I also spent some time developing a measuring product and that is still selling now. In hindsight I would never have made it as a consultant.

Why? Well, it seems to me that there are two types of engineer. The one who knows an immense amount about one subject, read the articles about EMC testing, and the other who knows lots about lots of things. I was in the second group. When developing the product I never had a moments worry that I couldn't design the hardware, layout the PCB, write the software and also design the mechanical parts, and make them on my lathe and mill. What about you?

Since then my knowledge of modern gate arrays and software has deteriorated to zero. In the 90s up upgraded all my design tools to Windows 95, but the silly hassles, being forced into changing work habits, crashed computers in the end just proved too much. I still run all the original DOS based design tools I started out with. Added to this is the phenomenon of surface mount. I am 59, and any smaller contacts than 0.050" I just can't see to solder. This limits my new designs to the older Microchip parts, they are the only manufacturer still making DIP and SOIC parts. I would love to use the MSP430, just can't see them to solder.

So for me designing and manufacturing and selling my own products was the way to go. I simply couldn't imagine me doing the traveling needed as a consultant, staring at the exhaust pipe of the car in front for 300 miles on the motorway. I also have no problems in thinking up new possible products. The great thing about you doing everything is that this really doesn't cost very much in cash terms.

What to make? Well, another forum has someone asking if anyone can make a timer for cross country running, logging in and out of check points and similar. Simple little task, once the data capture problem has been solved. In the old days you would have used a Psion Workabout to prototype it, not certain what you use now, but a Raspberry Pi is probably not it. What other possibilities then? The UK army has just stopped using the Clansman radio system, buy apparently the contract to supply replacement batteries is still running, resulting in lots, thousands, of new NiCd batteries on the market. They must have a use? Wind and solar power, this has to be an upcoming technology, but you still can't actually buy anything to utilise it. What about a replacement roof tile, or four, with a built in wind generator? Anyone who has been on a house roof knows that the wind is always blowing, so why not use it? Car electronics is now at the ridiculous level, what about some simple diagnostic tools? There is a good market in old test equipment, try repairing that. This brings me to possibly the most important tip, go to sales. Until you see what gets sold you won't believe what bargains are there to be had by the more technically savvy. There are auctions all over the country, most are on line.

I realise this isn't very far up the technology ladder, very much a bottom feeder in fact. If it isn't for you then don't do it. But, age gives you a very broad amount of knowledge which can be used in all sorts of areas. The fact that you can drive a multimeter makes you a far better repairer of a central heating system than some plumber. Whilst paying the bills with these jobs you can be developing things you want to do.

Stay interested, be one of the people whose 20 years experience is 20 years, not 1 year repeated 20 times. Buy books, go to charity shops and similar where anything technical doesn't sell, and costs peanuts. Collect test equipment, because that is your eyes into the world of electronics.

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Offline woodchips

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Re: Older engineers
« Reply #33 on: September 06, 2013, 06:23:54 pm »
There is another similar post about what use is formal education in this thread.

There is also a request for information about soft starting an induction motor. This refers to another web site

http://www.waterfront-woods.com/Articles/phaseconverter.htm

That explains static and rotary phase converters. If you think that formal education isn't needed, or you think you can work through simple phasor diagrams then write a critique of the article, what is good, if anything, what is bad, if anything, what has been left out, if anything.



 

Online edavid

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Re: Older engineers
« Reply #34 on: September 06, 2013, 08:19:46 pm »
Here in the USA, we are graduating people from high-school that can't even read their diploma.  These people then go to college, and you get the result you expect.  The difference is, they *think* they know *everything*, and yet, they don't even know how to solder correctly and have never built a cable.  If you ask them even simple questions about an analog circuit, they have no clue what the answer might be-- and they have zero knowledge of various (very common) digital circuits.  These people are absolutely worthless to my business, and they will need to get 10-15 years of experience before I will even talk to them.  I would hire a grey-beard with 20+ years of experience long before I would hire a young punk that knows nothing but thinks he knows everything.

Whoa, do you really think there are many MIT EE grads who are like that?  (Just an example, there are many good schools.)

Maybe the good grads don't want to interview at your company :)



« Last Edit: September 06, 2013, 08:22:05 pm by edavid »
 

Offline c4757p

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Re: Older engineers
« Reply #35 on: September 06, 2013, 08:41:16 pm »
I know I sure don't now... God, I know it's fashionable to complain about how bad schools are, but we're not all complete idiots... :(
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Offline c4757p

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Re: Older engineers
« Reply #36 on: September 06, 2013, 09:30:51 pm »
I would agree that many schools don't really prepare students, though I of course don't have the experience to say "most". But there are a lot of us who do have the "passion for engineering" that will allow us to be successful.

We are taught to learn what the professor is teaching us-- even if we disagree with it, and to never do anything (or reveal any information) that might embarrass the professor.

Maybe in the past, but I go to a pretty generic state school that is overall pretty shitty, and even there I have not found this to be the case. The only people who act like this are the asshole labbies who are really only students themselves.

I understand your criticisms. But please remember that even though some of us have definitely learned nothing more than how to pass our tests, there are many who really like what we do and take it as seriously as any greybeard. And while you might not be one of them, the people who immediately assume we are "young punks that know nothing but think we know everything" can be very overwhelming and depressing and seem to be rather common. Try not to let some bad experiences turn into a generalized prejudice.
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Offline c4757p

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Re: Older engineers
« Reply #37 on: September 06, 2013, 09:56:16 pm »
If you are trying to pass a test, you had better answer the questions on the test the way your professor taught you-- even if you know it's wrong.

Hell no. If my professor teaches me something that I know is wrong, I will take the time to discuss it with him. I'm paying him a lot of money to teach me real information. All of my professors up to this point have been amenable to taking this time, and many of my friends who are studying at different schools across the country have found the same thing. If the bullshit still made it through to the test, you can bet your ass I will answer the question correctly, and if I am marked off for it, pursue the matter as far and high as I need to. And I am not alone in this.

Maybe things were different when you were in school. Being in a position to hire for a technology-oriented position, you should follow recent developments in both technology and education enough to be aware that things are not always this way anymore.

We're not all ass-licking suckups, stop acting like we are. This whole "you're being trained to obey, like sheep" meme is very patronizing. And we're not that fragile either, so lose the "psychologically damaging" crap.
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Offline ElectroIrradiator

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Re: Older engineers
« Reply #38 on: September 06, 2013, 10:08:42 pm »
If you are trying to pass a test, you had better answer the questions on the test the way your professor taught you-- even if you know it's wrong.  What you are learning is to please authority figures to get what you want-- and this has little to do with electronics or the physics on which it is based.  It happens that many people that are subjected to this torture develop a life-long disability in innovative thinking-- and corporations reinforce this.  If you are not of strong mind, going through a university program can actually be psychologically damaging-- (IMHO).

Back in the day my profs gave bonus exam points for creative and unusual (but still correct) answers to exam questions. We were allowed to go crazy if we dared and thought we were able to pull it off, particularly at oral exams. This was encouraged, and it was repeatedly instilled in us to be on the lookout for the odd, unexplained behavior in experiments, measurement data etc.

One of my mentors used to paraphrase Fermi: If a test result conforms to theory, then you have made a measurement. If it doesn't, then you may have made a discovery.

The tenured profs were always keeping an eye out for students will above average practical and lab skills, as potential PhD candidates.

Of course this was in Denmark, years ago. Things may have changed since then... :-//

[Actually the natural science departments at the universities in Denmark are complaining about the lacking skill levels in the students these days, compared to the olden days...]
 

Offline ElectroIrradiator

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Re: Older engineers
« Reply #39 on: September 06, 2013, 11:15:56 pm »
Now, I'm no genius, so it would be great for someone to explain to me what is going on here.

Easy to explain: The combination of personality traits you are looking for, is somewhat rare. An online forum like this one exaggerates our numbers, but on the ground we are few and far in between. Always were, always will be. I am not suggesting the 'entrepreneur' type engineer/scientist was more common back in the day, in fact I very much doubt the situation was any different.

But people are asking for the proverbial self starting, self educating, started-as-a-teen, inspired, creative one man army, preferably with an agreeable personality, and as a percentage there are simply not that many of these around at any given time. Nor do I believe these fundamentals can be trained, at universities or elsewhere. Which means you are statistically unlikely to see too many walking through your door.

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Edit: Amendable -> Agreeable, also inserted 1x 'around' for clarity.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2013, 01:28:18 am by ElectroIrradiator »
 

Offline David_AVD

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Re: Older engineers
« Reply #40 on: September 06, 2013, 11:42:00 pm »
I've observed that some people just think differently than others.

For example, a person solves an issue in one situation, but totally flounders with a similar issue in a slightly different situation.  They just don't see the similarities.  Another person faced with the same situations handles them both well.

I'm not sure that recognising patterns and trends is able to be taught (in school or at all).  Some people seem to have the knack and some don't.  Whether that is related to how curious (and persistent) they were early on I don't know.   :-//
 

Online edavid

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Re: Older engineers
« Reply #41 on: September 07, 2013, 02:10:11 am »
OK, maybe the universities have changed, but I am still getting an endless stream of people with degrees that don't know how to make a cable or how to properly solder, can't describe the function of simple analog or digital circuits, and have no troubleshooting skills.  The vast majority of the people that have no degree that have the balls to apply for my engineering positions actually *can* solder, and actually *know* what the test analog and digital circuits do (and are called), and have great troubleshooting skills.  Now, I'm no genius, so it would be great for someone to explain to me what is going on here.

What is your company, and what products does it make?  Is it possible that you don't attract the good grads because they are not that interesting, or you don't pay enough?

And, are you putting too much emphasis on being able to make a cable?  I agree it's ridiculous for an adult not to be able to do that, but how long does it take to learn?

Quote
Universities do *not* churn out entrepreneurial-thinking graduates-- the entire system is designed to churn out "corporate-bots", and in case you haven't noticed, the corporate engineering positions are going away-- what we need are innovators and entrepreneurs to create new products and start new companies to sell them-- not "cookie-cutter" engineers that we stuff into cubicles at "IniTech".  (I am *not* saying *all* engineering graduates are like this-- but the vast majority of those that I interview *are*).

Why would the entrepreneurial-thinking graduates be coming to work for you?
 

Offline c4757p

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Re: Older engineers
« Reply #42 on: September 07, 2013, 02:18:20 am »
Universities do *not* churn out entrepreneurial-thinking graduates-- the entire system is designed to churn out "corporate-bots", and in case you haven't noticed, the corporate engineering positions are going away-- what we need are innovators and entrepreneurs to create new products and start new companies to sell them-- not "cookie-cutter" engineers that we stuff into cubicles at "IniTech".  (I am *not* saying *all* engineering graduates are like this-- but the vast majority of those that I interview *are*).

No, the system doesn't churn out corporate-bots. From my perspective inside a school, here's what I see: among some students, there is a certain culture of laziness that leads them to "just scrape by" as well as they can. Unfortunately, there isn't always enough direct interaction between students and professors for the professors to realize they're about to pass a student who should instead be wearing a dunce cap. Part of this comes down to this laziness culture again; many of the students never bother to meet with their professors at all. Of course, this is something that needs to be changed - it needs to be harder to pass courses without having mastered the material - but I don't see any bot-churning. I have met students who want to become bots. But the idea that they have been "taught" that by a bot-churning system is silly. There will always be bots.

Also... have you ever considered that either you're looking in the wrong places... or perhaps the job you're hiring for is just too boring and only those cookie-cutter cubicle fillers even want to apply? Maybe there are lots of engineering graduates who are off creating new products, and they're not working for you.
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Offline westfw

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Re: Older engineers
« Reply #43 on: September 07, 2013, 04:06:33 am »
I don't have a lot of patience to people that expect no more than a college degree to guarantee them an interesting and lucrative job.

And it's certainly true that a college degree, especially one in EE, leaves students unprepared for "real" jobs.
Degree programs are full of math and physics and whatnot; a BSEE probably gets one semester worth of differentiation between chip-level, board-level, system-level, and grid-level design (And don't forget 7 semesters of "Social Science and Humanities" electives, so that they'll come out "well-rounded"...)

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We don't have time to hire interns and train them
On the other hand, I don't have much patience for THIS attitude either.  An employer ought to ALWAYS expect that a new employee will need to learn stuff before they'll be fully productive.  If you're hiring someone straight out of school, you should have a pretty good idea exactly what their strengths and weaknesses are going to be.  If you're hiring someone based on a couple years experience, you'll have a better idea on a fine scale, but a worse idea of their background.  You can't very well say "Well, we hired you to do an instrument based on an AVR because of your prior experience, but we want the next version to be based ARM so we'll have to let you go."  One HOPES that a new graduate is still in "learn mode" and has boundless enthusiasm that helps make up for their inexperience.  One FEARS that the "experienced engineer" is set in their ways and unwilling to adapt.  ...  Choose.

 

Offline Galaxyrise

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Re: Older engineers
« Reply #44 on: September 07, 2013, 06:20:36 am »
So, it's not the degree that makes you an engineer, it's your passion for engineering that does-- and that's what I look for in a new hire. 
Of course, but that doesn't mean there's no benefit to the schooling!  People with that passion participate in things like JPL, supermileage competitions, robot competitions, internships, etc.  They leave school with both class experience and mentored hands-on experience. If you have the benefit of knowing what career you want when you start university, you can come out way ahead of most people who didn't and most people who didn't go to university. 

Still a long way from the experience that a greybeard has, though. A company is foolish to try to rely on just college grads (even the very best ones), and likewise the college grads should be looking for companies that have a good mentoring chain.
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Offline ElectroIrradiator

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Re: Older engineers
« Reply #45 on: September 07, 2013, 07:45:43 am »
We are a small company that designs industrial instrumentation for other companies.  We don't have time to hire interns and train them-- we need people that can wear many hats and be able to get the job done without constant supervision.  Since the company is so small, we like employees to be conscious of the costs of their engineering decisions, and we share the profit as well so that everyone has a vested interest in getting things done quickly, correctly, and within budget-- that's where the "entrepreneurial thinking" comes into play.

How do you handle people needing constant education to keep up with new technology, if you are unwilling to train even new graduates? Have you considered, that the best and the brightest graduates may actively be avoiding small shops like yours, exactly because they are worried they won't have opportunity to keep their skills current?

Given the complexity and pace of technological progress, the smart students will be aware it is nearly impossible to keep their skills current on their own time. Even just equipping a home lab to allow you to do 'front line work' is not a trivial expense, even less so once you consider your equipment will need regular updates as the years pass. Then there are the issues with people wanting time for activities other than their daytime job: Family, other hobbies, friends, etc.

In my country there has been a fair amount of debate due to companies, who expect potential employees to have whichever FOTM skills they happen to be looking for this month. Like a small startup loudly complaining in the press about not being able to get university graduates with iPhone programming experience.

The fallout from that and similar stories seem to be heading toward a situation, where the employee interest organizations build some form of social network. This should allowing employees to vet potential employers on how they - the employers - view and handle on the job training and employee education.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2013, 08:06:29 am by ElectroIrradiator »
 

Offline Bored@Work

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Re: Older engineers
« Reply #46 on: September 07, 2013, 08:30:58 am »
In my country there has been a fair amount of debate due to companies, who expect potential employees to have whichever FOTM skills they happen to be looking for this month.

I have seen job adverts were the required skills were specified by giving a version number of some software - up to the particular patch level of that software. And they made it clear in the advert that you absolutely had to have experience with precisely that version. Others need not apply.

That sends a clear message - we don't even train people for 15 minutes.
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Offline Bored@Work

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Re: Older engineers
« Reply #47 on: September 07, 2013, 08:53:45 am »
Universities do *not* churn out entrepreneurial-thinking graduates-- the entire system is designed to churn out "corporate-bots", and in case you haven't noticed, the corporate engineering positions are going away

Are they? Because that it what the "New Economy" dot.com bubble tried to tell us in the past. And we know how that worked out.

Corporate engineering positions aren't going away, many just moved. To China, or to India for example. Where a single company like Tata once hired 5000 university graduates. On a single day.

And then going on to publish this intentions http://www.tata.com/company/Media/inside.aspx?artid=VmIvXtZDMgU=
Quote
TCS to hire 50,000 in FY 13

Mumbai: Software major Tata Consultancy Services(TCS) today said it is planning to hire 50,000 people in FY 13.

Just to follow that up with an "ups, that didn't work out"
Quote
TCS had a target of hiring 50,000 for FY13. But, by the end of this year, the company would have hired 60,000.

Tell me again, what was that about the corporate engineering jobs going away? When a single company in India slurped up 60000 a year ...

And when your only answer to that one is the old dot.bomb "entrepreneurial-everything and it will work out", then you are in trouble. Because entrepreneurial means a bunch of jokers and cowboys, doing a half-arsed job, taking the money and being nowhere to find in a year or two, because they moved on, hunting the next fad.

Quote
start new companies to sell them

The dot.bomb fraud. Inflate some BS, sell it and run away. If you think that results in a sustainable economy ...
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Offline A Hellene

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Re: Older engineers
« Reply #48 on: September 07, 2013, 11:18:29 am »
No sane man would ever think of underestimating the importance of education.

But, my question is this: Is really an education whatever is being sold to the public today under that name? Because the name alone cannot define a product, a situation or a person; only their actions and the results can.

It is a fact that, if the government(s) wanted better educated individuals they could have them by *not* dumbing down the educational system (see: "No child left behind," etc.). That is because a few decades earlier the educational system was producing real engineers while education today has become a commodity for everyone who can afford it to have. This explains why today's "educated" individuals have their egos grown to the size of cathedrals, without being actually able to think critically or in a rational manner --or even to communicate decently with their social counterparts. Does this not sound to be another form of Social Engineering?

You may call me pedantic; but there is a huge difference between educating and conditioning an individual (or even a whole society). Since everything in life is about choice, anybody could chose to live any life they wish: "Circus dogs jump when the trainer cracks his whip," George Orwell observed, "but the really well-trained dog is the one that turns his somersault when there is no whip." Now, is that sympathetic dog above (the one that entertains its master and the guests on demand) an educated life form or a conditioned one to do his part whenever he is told to?

This leads us to contemplate about scientists, the individuals who represent the highest form of the upper level educational system outcome: Well, it seems that there are scientists and "scientists." The former ones are the honest and respectable researchers who try their best to make the world a better place, while the latter ones could be called "monkeys with a degree"; that is because these nice and sympathetic animals can easily be trained to be pressing the right buttons in the right order, for example, and to finally receive their certificates of a successful end of their training. But, is this not the definition of a "degree" which is an official certification that the degree holder has responded correctly to a predetermined set of questions after the appropriate education? So, what I am trying to emphasize is that, a degree actually does neither certify that its holder is a man of real abilities, or a man of character integrity; I am trying to emphasize that a certified "scientist" could easily be a crook.

To support this thesis, above, let me refer to a recent article published by TimesOnline in 04/06/2009, which currently is only accessible by subscription. This, however, is a copy of that very interesting article, coming straight from my personal archives:

Quote from: Times Online
One in seven scientists say colleagues fake data
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/science/article6425036.ece

June 4, 2009
Hannah Devlin


Faking scientific data and failing to report commercial conflicts of interest are far more prevalent than previously thought, a study suggests.

One in seven scientists says that they are aware of colleagues having seriously breached acceptable conduct by inventing results. And around 46 per cent say that they have observed fellow scientists engage in “questionable practices”, such as presenting data selectively or changing the conclusions of a study in response to pressure from a funding source.

However, when scientists were asked about their own behaviour only 2 per cent admitted to having faked results.

Daniele Fanelli, of the University of Edinburgh, who carried out the investigation, believes that high-profile cases such as that of Hwang Woo-Suk, the South Korean scientist disgraced for fabricating human stem cell data, are less unusual than is generally assumed. “Increasing evidence suggests that known frauds are just the tip of the iceberg and that many cases are never discovered,” he said.

The findings, published in the peer-reviewed journal PLoS One, are based on a review of 21 scientific misconduct surveys carried out between 1986 and 2005. The results paint a picture of a profession in which dishonesty and misrepresentation are widespread.

In all the surveys people were asked about both their own research practices and those of colleagues. Misconduct was divided into two categories: fabrication, the actual invention of data; and lesser breaches that went under the heading “questionable practices”. These included dropping data points based on a “gut feeling” and failing to publish data that contradict one’s previous research.

The discrepancy between the number of scientists owning up to misconduct and those having been observed by colleagues is likely to be in part due to fears over anonymity, Dr Fanelli suggests. “Anyone who has ever falsified research is probably unwilling to reveal it despite all guarantees of anonymity.”

The study predicts that the 2 per cent figure, although higher than most previous estimates, is still likely to be conservative.

Another explanation for the differences between the self-report results and colleague-report results could be that people consider themselves to be more moral than others. In a marginal case, people might characterise their colleagues’ behaviour as misconduct more readily than they would their own.

The study included scientists from a range of disciplines. Misconduct was far more frequently admitted by medical or pharmacological researchers than others, supporting fears that the field of medical research is being biased by commercial interests.
Aristotle used to say that, "Dignity does not consist in possessing honours, but in deserving them."


-George
« Last Edit: September 07, 2013, 11:35:44 am by A Hellene »
Hi! This is George; and I am three and a half years old!
(This was one of my latest realisations, now in my early fifties!...)
 

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Re: Older engineers
« Reply #49 on: September 07, 2013, 06:02:44 pm »
It depends on the person's interest. I've coached lots of interns and most of them are eager to learn new skills. IMHO the best way to 'acquire' someone fresh from school is to have the person as an intern first so he/she can learn how the company works. Several of the interns I coached got a job at the company I worked for.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 


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