Paypal angst

[staxquad]

(it saved before I completed the post... still not finished, OK  finished now)

Paypal angst

Get an Email from PAYPAL stating: Reversal: Insufficient Funds in Bank Account

Have ~$600 in the account linked to PAYPAL and the Transaction Amount was only $5.34 CAD, so here I am thinking about that Ebay password debacle and somehow the culprits figured out my PAYPAL password from my Ebay password ...

First things first, check my bank account....money is still there...WFT?

Go to Paypal, wtf is my password again?, just changed it and I can't get in,  where's that piece of paper I wrote iterations of the password on at?  OK found it, log on...

Transaction Date:      Apr 26, 2014 (bank balance on primary account then was $149.87)
Pay After Delivery add funds from my primary account on May 17, 2014 failed (primary account balance that day $574.20)

why t F do they need to add funds ($5.34 CAD) from my primary account when I've got funds enough in my PAYPAL account? Total balance (all currencies, available and pending) converted to USD: $16.02 USD

So I look more closely at the transaction, it shows they tried to transfer money from the previous bank account (President's Choice), not the primary confirmed bank account (Bank of Nova Scotia).

So that means an NSF ($45 non sufficient funds bank charge) for that transaction because Paypal used the previous bank account to pay for the transaction rather than the  Primary confirmed.

I have not changed anything relating to my bank accounts on Paypal for years, Paypal just used my old account out of the blue.  So if you switch accounts to point at an acount with sufficient funds, it may just randomly pick the account that hasn't got sufficient funds, and you're stuck with the bank NSF and the Paypal NSF.   What is the point of PRIMARY if it's random?

So now I look at my Emails and there's two more transactions that will go through for Pay After Delivery, one on May 24 for  $31.55 CAD and another today for  $4.46 CAD, so 2 more NSF of $45 each, plus the Paypal NSF charges.

I don't think I want to pay $270 worth of NSFs on account of a PAYPAL glitch (for $40 worth of merchandise).

Called PAYPAL, they wanted to blame me because I didn't read the "The money will be withdrawn from your president's choice financial Chequing (Confirmed) x-yyyy account. The payment will show on your bank statement as a PayPal purchase." in the Email.  She said Paypal can't stop the other two transactions.

I told them I changed NOTHING in my account and it still shows that my primary account is what I expect it to be, my last payment from my Primary account was on May 15, 2014.  The FUCK UP happened at PAYPAL after that date or has something to do with how Pay Later sets up the transactions which would have happened in April.

Note to self, delete all bank accounts and credit cards I do not want PAYPAL to use inadvertently and turn off the Pay after delivery option, it just complicates things.

BNS has been my primary for years, haven't been to this page for years, yet PAYPAL used President's Choice as the bank account to transfer from when it's not even the PRIMARY.

[bithead9]

why not just use a credit card with paypal ?  forget the BANK account!  that is just asking for trouble.  At least with a CC you can dispute any problems.  Also keep in mind you might have a montly LIMIT?  I forget how much but unless you go professional or get certified or some thing like that you are capped.  Maybe you hit the Paypal cap?

[staxquad]

Not sure how you calculated $270.

It is a good heads up to be sure you understand these Paypal system rules. I can't say I do.

So I look more closely at the transaction, it shows they tried to transfer money from the previous bank account (President's Choice), not the primary confirmed bank account (Bank of Nova Scotia).

But Why? That's that key question for me. I'm going to bet it wasn't random or a "glitch". I also doubt it was a "f@#k up". Not without first knowing Paypals explanation or a thorough reading of the T & C's.

Was there sufficient funds in your PP account at the time of the transactions? Do PP top up your PP account at the time of purchase to ensure they have funds under their control for payment later? Did they get a error response from your primary bank and try the alternate? Otherwise why even have an alternate bank.

I hear your frustration and feel your pain. I sure wouldn't like being stung with insufficient funds fees. They're greedy high here in Australia too.

I got caught a number of years ago with insufficient funds in my Primary account and the bank charged me an NSF and also Paypal charged an NSF (I'll have to check my credit card statements to make sure).

Anyway, there's 1 transaction that already bounced (was alerted by Email at 10:26 am today) and 2 that will in the next few days (alerted at 12:26 pm today for the last one),  (Paypal said they can't stop them, it's in the banking system already), so 3 bounces at $45 each plus the Paypal charges for each bounce, 6x$45 potential (depending on the Paypal charge).

I hope I can get Paypal to assume the charges since I didn't change the PRIMARY account, what's the point having Primary if it ain't Primary?

I think I've noticed that even when you've got money in the Paypal account, it ignores it when arranging payment for a Pay Later.

I ain't going to use Pay Later anymore.

And notice Pay Later is in the Primary account box and not in the other account box in the image

@ bithead9, you need an attached account if you sell and want to move the funds to your bank account.

As a recipient, you can remove money from your PayPal account by making a withdrawal. These are your options for making the withdrawal:

    Transfer money to a bank account associated with your PayPal account
    Request that PayPal mail you a paper check for a certain amount
    Make purchases using a PayPal debit card

I'm supposed to get an Email from Paypal, been at least 10 hours since I contacted them, I guess they are investigating.

[peter.mitchell]

They also do something incredibly obnoxious when you have both a credit card and a bank account on your paypal account - the default payment method is always your bank account, and even though they call it "instant bank transfer" it isn't instant. So every time you pay for something you have to change the payment method (i have been unable to set it to default).

[staxquad]

That President's Choice account has been dormant for at least 5 years.  I set up that account after leaving CIBC because I couldn't stand CIBC.   I cut up the PC bank card.  It's an online bank, so there are no physical branches where you can talk to a teller (operated by CIBC, I didn't know that at the time).  That and the fact that when you transfer from savings to checking, they hold the funds for one day (usually when you needed the funds in checking that same day), the reasons I abandoned the bank.

Looks like I still had something >$31.55 CAD in it since the first transaction passed through.

After the first bounce and the call to Paypal, Paypal seem to be adding money to the account to let the transactions complete without bounce (and NSF charges), but there's still quite a few to run through before this all ends.   Paypal told me not to change the settings for my accounts until it completes.

Will remove that offending bank account and the option to pay later as soon as I can.

Does look like Paypal is going to clean up the situation.  Once cleaned up, I'll consider changing my account from  Premier to Personal (as bithead9 suggested).  I could just use the "send me a cheque" for a small fee when I've got a balance I want to transfer.

May 24, debited my account with money still in the President's Choice account, then bounce, then I think Paypal's adding money to the account so the transactions complete.


still more Pay After Delivery until it's clear; up to May 14th, the funds came from my Primary bank account 

[Dr. Frank]

Excuse me please, not to be seriously sticking to the subject here...

The typical German word 'Angst' just caught my eye, and obviously it's really used for severe cases in the English speaking countries...

Well, Paypal is based on credit cards, because then, paypal doesn't have to do the solvency check on their own.

We here in the Angst-country have an institute (SCHUFA), which checks the solvency for all kind of banks and credit companies...

So I understand paypal, that they are nervous or ängstlich, as we say here.

Hope you get around with them..

Frank (not having Angst any more in this life)

[SeanB]

They also do something incredibly obnoxious when you have both a credit card and a bank account on your paypal account - the default payment method is always your bank account, and even though they call it "instant bank transfer" it isn't instant. So every time you pay for something you have to change the payment method (i have been unable to set it to default).

Simple explanation for that is fees. Transfers from a bank account are not charged a commission on the cost, paid by the recipient ( PP in this case) while credit cards charge a commission and a service fee on the value. Bank transfers the fee is for the owner of the account. This is true for South Africa, it most likely is common around the world.

[tinhead]

Frank (not having Angst any more in this life)

[saturation]

I had a  run in with Paypal last year, and now remove my bank account.  If you only buy things mostly, its not worth the hassle from their inconsistent policies and software "bugs".

The default account to take money is a bank account and I cannot set it to credit card. 

They have a printed website policy that states that they will take balance of funds automatically from a secondary account if your bank account has insufficient funds.   This policy did not work. 

Both paypal and my bank confirmed that bank fund transfer protocol paypal uses, ACH or automated clearing house,  doesn't included account balances so its either a go or no go, based on the amount requested. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automated_Clearing_House


So, it cannot perform the paypal policy without incurring an ACH insufficient funds or overdraft charge.

I had $100 in my bank and valid credit card.  I purchased an item for $110.  The bank system is default if it exists and billed $110.  Bank refuses payment as insufficient funds.  Transaction is returned to PP, and PP did not automatically bill the credit card.

The bank charged a $35 bounce check fee and the seller was not paid.

I complained to PP and after they refused to fix the $35 issue nor alter the wording in their website, I reported them to my state Attorney General's office for fraudulent practices.   In 2006?? they were actually fine millions as a class action lawsuit involving many US states. 

My bank later forgave the charge and told me paypal does it all the time and advised I do not use PP.  To this day, the complaints registered in 2006 continue to happen so the are in violation of the settlement and are thus open to further litigation.

http://www.illinoisattorneygeneral.gov/pressroom/2006_09/20060928.html

I no longer use PP except for eBay purchases.

If you read the user agreement in detail its services are vastly inferior to any major credit card as it doesn't provide similar protection. 

[tjb1]

I had a similar situation last year.  Paypal switched bank even though I have set a card as default a million times, got the email saying not enough funds in bank account.  I thought ok...it will use the backup...no it attempted the bank 3 times before going to backup.  2 charges after it went the same way so after getting hit in $90 of NSF charges I had to run to the bank and transfer money in to cover the others. 

The best part of this story?  The bank declined the paypal charges so my balance never actually changed, paypal "took" the money out and refunded it back several hours later once the system got back around but the bank still got their fee.  That bank account now has $0 and has been removed from paypal but not much I can do on the paypal front...

[jpb]

Excuse me please, not to be seriously sticking to the subject here...

The typical German word 'Angst' just caught my eye, and obviously it's really used for severe cases in the English speaking countries...

Frank (not having Angst any more in this life)

Your post inspired me to have a quick look at the OED - the first reference that they have to the word being imported was in 1849 (a letter of George Elliot).

When I was last in Germany I noticed that you use the word Gardrobe for changing room (?) where as we used it in medieval times for a private room or privy (toilet) though it originally comes from the French or Italian.

To get back on topic - I concur that Paypal is best restricted to a credit card and a single one at that, where you can check things on internet banking and argue with dodgy payments.

[saturation]

One thing I do is just link bank account when needed, to transfer a big balance.  After the money is transferred, unlink your bank again.  There are no fees to keep doing this.  The only downside is the time to link and unlink bank accounts.

.. The bank declined the paypal charges so my balance never actually changed, paypal "took" the money out and refunded it back several hours later once the system got back around but the bank still got their fee.  That bank account now has $0 and has been removed from paypal but not much I can do on the paypal front...

[staxquad]

holy f***** shit storm

and there's 3 more of those Pay After Delivery payments still stuck on that old bank account to still go through

Paypal did dick all.  On the phone today with Paypal for an hour on a cell phone.  After explaining again to one person, I had to repeat to the second person, then a third time to a supervisor.  She assured me that nothing could be done but a stop payment (costing $10 each rather than an NSF for $45 each).  The Paypal person a few days ago said they would send an email so I could contact the bank for the NSF charges.  No email was received and it seemed like payments were being made, but no

The forgotten bank account has reared it's ugly head (they are charging $20 a year for no activity)
I guess they won't charge next year because there's been Paypal activity. it's titled a no fee bank account

Didn't know if I could get into my old bank account info, it's been so long....
after trying a few of my generic passwords, I had to have a look to see what Paypal was doing, dick all is what they were doping, what a horror.   

not including yesterday's NSF, so another -$45, (and either 3x-$10 or 3x-$45 more to come)

And now I've tried to call the online bank, been through 2 supervisors and they are so far refusing to acknowledge who I am, say they can't verify my phone number (land line terminated for a cell phone), have to call another time with another supervisor.  The second one says I need to go to a satellite station (Sudbury, 255 km away with 2 sets of proof of identity) or they will mail info that I have to complete and mail back, so pile on more NSFs.    Online banking.

[saturation]

Sorry to read; PP works better for me since I have unlinked my bank account, and do so only as needed to withdraw money.  But again, I avoid them except for eBay.

[ConKbot]

Yup, this is why I removed my bank account from paypal.  I dont trust them (let alone ebay/paypal combined) to do whats right. They can do whatever charges they want to my credit card, if I complain enough at the credit card company, they side with me.

[saturation]

+1 To all readers, CC give you better service and protection so use CC and avoid PP .

Yup, this is why I removed my bank account from paypal.  I dont trust them (let alone ebay/paypal combined) to do whats right. They can do whatever charges they want to my credit card, if I complain enough at the credit card company, they side with me.

[staxquad]

After the third and last supervisor validated my identity with account info that I could see online (the other two supervisors asked for the phone number, but I have a new cell phone which is not on file, old land line  removed so they couldn't just call me, forgot password, personal info they didn't ask, they said could have lost my wallet, etc.), I was told to make the account positive, so I went to CIBC and  I deposited $180 using the automatic teller with my old PC bank card they said would work, new pin reset.  Returned home to call the bank again to close the account.   They said any other Paypal charges that try to debit the account will be stopped.  I had a balance of maybe $1.25 that they will credit my credit card with, there was another interest charge that hadn't appeared yet on the account.

Now I have to get Paypal to reimburse all the NSFs, 4 or more,  so at least $180.

Should have never opened an Online only bank account, no physical bank or tellers to present yourself to (if I could not validate my identity to the third supervisor, I would have had to go 255km to a satellite station with 2 ID cards, or wait in the mail for papers to fill out and return).   Should have closed that account in 2009.  Should have unlinked that account from PayPal.  Should never have used Paypal's Pay After delivery.  What that Paypal agent told me May 28 was misleading and caused further damage.  Should have tried to close the account on May 28th instead of relying on Paypal to fix things. Would have only incurred 2 NSFs, the May 21st and May 28th ones thanks to the one week time delay for Paypal to alert you.  Now I have to get Paypal to pay for the NSFs, 4 or  more, so this ain't over yet.

account now positive and closed, not showing newest NSFs


still more transactions left in the Pay after delivery trap



had to reconcile the transactions on Paypal with the bank to get clear on what's happening
1st NSF for April 26th purchase  (debited May 21)  $5.34 CAD
2nd NSF for May 3rd purchase (debited May 28th) $27.89USD or $31.55CAD
3rd NSF for May 6th purchase (debited May 29th) $3.95USD or $4.46 CAD
4th NSF for May 7th purchase (debited May 30th) $5.26USD or $5.91CAD

then 3 more Pay After Delivery on Jun 3rd (today), and on Jun 6th for $1.80USD, $1.93USD and $32USD, with a closed bank account, so paid by the CC

So Pay After Delivery locks you in for 3 weeks  and you get to know something is wrong when the damage is already done.  Problem occurred April 26th and I only found out they switched my bank accounts on May 28th.

Paypal sent me an Email for the first bounce on May 27th after it occurred on May 21st.

It looks like I have to deal with 4 NSFs and averted 3 NSFs by closing the account

[staxquad]

On the phone today with Paypal for like an hour of discussion. They will only pay half the NSF fees, so it's cost me $90 for their bungle and Paypal assumes the other $90.  They said I should try to wrangle some of the NSF fees back from the bank.  I said that it wasn't the banks fault, it wasn't my fault, it was totally Paypal's fault ignoring my Primary Confirmed account and defaulting to the secondary account for 7 straight transactions.  Pay After delivery is a trap.  Having more than one bank account linked to Paypal is a trap.  Having any bank accounts linked to Paypal is a trap.  If the transactions were paid for by my credit card only, there would have been no NSFs, all would have been hunky dory. 

I argued about what I saw online on the Paypal Profile Bank Accounts page as a customer and the agent at Paypal argued about small print in the Legal Agreements and read some sections where they could do this or they could do that.   Sounded all to me like a "screw you". 

Paypal emails you a notice: "Reversal: Insufficient Funds in Bank Account" 7 days after it happens, so if you have a slew of transactions stuck in a Pay After Delivery pointing to the wrong account by their doing, there's going to be major NSF damage before a customer figures it out.  At best, on May 28th, if I would have taken the initiative with my bank account, I could have limited the NSFs to 1 or 2 (the second happened on May 28th, 3rd on May 29th, 4th on May 30th), but I though Paypal was on to it, my bad.  The trap was laid, it was just how many I would catch before I could put a stop to it (there were 7 transactions stuck in the Pay After delivery debiting the wrong account.)   

$90 lost

$90.00 CAD;PayPal Posting Date:Jun 4, 2014;Payment from:Paypal;As a one-time goodwill gesture, we have issued a credit to your account. Thank you for using PayPal.

PayPal is a mishap waiting to happen

[dannyf]

There seems to be lots of information that better remains non-public.

[TMM]

I was under the impression that you used to be able to select a source as your 'default' payment method. I used to have this set to my CC and it would always default to that when i went to pay for something except when i had funds in my PP account, it would use them up first and overflow to the CC.

Something changed recently and now it seems a complete lottery as to which payment method it chooses as default when i go to pay for something. I can't find any setting to set my CC to 'default' and after inadvertently charging my (UNCONFIRMED?!) bank account a few times i have removed it from my PP account...

I assume paypal have forced the default to direct debit as it costs them less money than CC transactions.

[David_AVD]

I assume paypal have forced the default to direct debit as it costs them less money than CC transactions.

I noticed that a long time ago.  I have to manually select my credit card for every transaction, otherwise it will use the direct debit (bank account) default.  Slightly annoying but not a big deal really.

[bithead9]

Webster's Official source of the (American) English language:
angst  [ahngkst, angst]     
noun 
a feeling of dread, anxiety, or anguish.   
Origin: 
1840-50;  < German  Angst  fear, anxiety, Old High German  angust  (cognate with Middle Low German  angest,  Middle Dutch  anxt ), equivalent to ang-  (akin to eng  narrow, constricted) + -st  abstract nominal suffix, perhaps a conglomerate of a suffix *-os-  + *-ti-  suffix forming abstracts

In case anyone cares.

[zapta]

why not just use a credit card with paypal ?  forget the BANK account!  that is just asking for trouble.  At least with a CC you can dispute any problems.  Also keep in mind you might have a montly LIMIT?  I forget how much but unless you go professional or get certified or some thing like that you are capped.  Maybe you hit the Paypal cap?

+1

You don't need a paypal account for purchases, you can pay with a credit card as a guest (it's typically an hidden option at the bottom when redirected from ebay).  I stopped using my paypal account many years ago when they required my bank account information (no chance! not even of a junk account) because I used too many credit card numbers (I generate a unique credit card number with amount limit for each online transaction).  I stopped using the account and am now paying as a guest and life is good.

The less you get engaged with them the better.

[nctnico]

Over here I can undo Paypal's direct-debit charges for about 6 weeks. That should be the same in every European country.

[sunnyhighway]

I think it's six months here.

And where would here be?