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Offline Cerebus

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #250 on: September 14, 2017, 02:25:28 AM »
Rigor prevents engineering (or math, or chemistry, or biology) from being prone to whimsical thought or social warrior noise.
Rigor won't protect you from Title IX.

Rigour however will protect you from failing to state your assumptions, like "Title IX" of what.
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Online Assafl

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #251 on: September 14, 2017, 02:34:49 AM »
Rigor prevents engineering (or math, or chemistry, or biology) from being prone to whimsical thought or social warrior noise.
Rigor won't protect you from Title IX.

Ah - title IX.

>10 year before Title IX was making its way in congress Tom Lehrer said the following: “The Army has carried the American ideal to its logical conclusion. Not only do they prohibit discrimination on the grounds of race, creed and color, but also on ability.”



Rigour however will protect you from failing to state your assumptions, like "Title IX" of what.

Ignorantia legis neminem excusat.
 
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #252 on: September 14, 2017, 04:57:33 AM »

Rigour however will protect you from failing to state your assumptions, like "Title IX" of what.

Ignorantia legis neminem excusat.

You do know what that Latin tag means, don't you - usually rendered "ignorance of the law is no defence". Quite what is the relevance here?

Or are you one of those strange norte-americanos who thinks that everybody in the world is subject to your laws and are accusing me of some inexcusable ignorance of US domestic law for not automatically recognising "Title XI" as one of your laws?
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Online Assafl

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #253 on: September 14, 2017, 06:11:14 AM »
Quote
Ignorantia legis neminem excusat.

You do know what that Latin tag means, don't you - usually rendered "ignorance of the law is no defence". Quite what is the relevance here?

Or are you one of those strange norte-americanos who thinks that everybody in the world is subject to your laws and are accusing me of some inexcusable ignorance of US domestic law for not automatically recognising "Title XI" as one of your laws?

LOL - I am not Norte Americano... I am located in the Mediterranean. However unfortunate, that does not imply I am not strange. Indeed I probably am.

Anyway, it was a joke and I apologize. Here it is hot and humid and dusty and people are rude and therefore Latin amuses us (i.e. it was a joke).

In the spirit of good will - Title IX is the god daddy of affirmative action. But over many years it has backfired due to the test the court apply: proportionality (are the number of participant proportional to their representation in the student body); growth (are barriers in the process of being removed) and last - interest from the student body (is there sufficient interest in the student body to say - have a female or Hispanic team). Obviously this can - and has been - abused.

 
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 05:21:17 PM by Assafl »
 

Offline TimNJ

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #254 on: September 14, 2017, 08:13:50 AM »
Maybe I'm missing the point here..but..an undergraduate engineering degree was never intended to teach you everything in your field. That's physically impossible. Hell, when you die, you still won't know everything.

The attitude here seems to be "arts/humanities classes are eating away at engineering education!", as if the 3 or 4 humanities classes you take will genuinely make you a less competent engineer in the long run. An undergraduate degree is just the start of your education; You have your entire career to continue learning, and you will have to.

Yes, I love engineering, with all my heart, but that doesn't mean I can't also be interested in society, human behavior, history, art etc. I went to a liberal-arts college and studied EE. Yes, sometimes my required liberal arts classes were a pain in the ass, but do I really wish I hadn't taken them? No! Many engineers who graduated with me would tell you the same thing. There's nothing wrong with gaining a little perspective, challenging your worldview, etc.

And, if you are a person who doesn't want this kind of education, then don't go to a liberal arts school!
 
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Online cdev

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #255 on: September 14, 2017, 11:39:25 AM »
I see a lot of people who seem to be really threatened by anything they cant buy off. Right now in our society, pretty much all of the institutions that are supposed to help us find our way are "captured" meaning varying degrees of corrupt and dishonest.

For example, the media now is largely intentionally, systematically omitting all important key facts or context from the news, such as to make whats reported varying degrees of deceptive at best (and quite oftentimes its intentionally spun so as to be quite wrong.)

 Not so coincidentally, there is a huge outcry in that same media about "fake news" - which sometimes is true, and their protests are really protests that the people who used to believe every word they said, now are starting to figure out they are being manipulated.

Only a very few media outlets are willing to admit when they made a mistake and even fewer make an effort to find out what the truth is when some fact emerges showing that their take on something is really wrong, when "news" or spin is wrong. A glitch in the Matrix.. so to speak.

Instead of fighting for the truth, more and more media's first reaction is anger at being exposed as dishonest.. Rather than correct themselves,  media are grasping at various means and appeals to authority in various ways to spin themselves as the accurate ones. What was it Shakespeare said, the lady she doth protest too much.

Similarly with politics, often the political discussion is engineered to be a distraction from whats really going on, not reflect or God forbid govern or regulate it. If it did, corporations would go beserk, and lacking any context to understand what was happening, many peoples heads would explode.

Why is this being done? Its a form of sophisticated theft.

There is a concept in law called "Adverse possession" - it basically says that you can steal anything from anybody by taking it notoriously - basically you are challenging them to stop you, they are supposed to go to court in some manner. Of course, thats an illusion, the courts are closed to that kind of case, also, people have to know the planet is being taken from them, they have to realize they own something. In an abuse scenario people have been brainwashed into silence and disempowerment.

There I said it, thats what these alleged "social justice warriors" (people with common sense) are saying to would be engineering EDUCATORS.. not engineering students, teachers of engineering, who likely are already engineers or close to it. But of course, thats not what people repeating the story are assuming.  No as they are spinning it, young people are being forced to pay for content they dont want -an argument that speaks to a great many people, because money is being used as a costly screen to keep a great many people from pursuing an education. Dnying more and more people a voice that can be heard. Large numbers ofpeople are being disempowered.  And we need some way to re-empower people to speak. thats true.

Those social justice warriors are right, and its easy to prove to a logically minded person.

The big theft could also be stopped by these logically minded people.

I think the point should be recognized that the big losers when technology is abused are the common people, you and I, all of us, and that families and society often pay a huge price for decisions made by corporations knowing that they could likely get away with it.

They make a conscious decision to steal, secure in the knowledge that they are not alone, other thieves will prevent their ever being held accountable .

This is getting worse and worse and the cost in monetary sense is already astronomical and growing exponentially due to things like pollution and shifting of innumerable costs of disinvestment to society while profits are being concentrated in fewer and fewer people. Its like a curve thats going from horizontal to vertical very rapidly. And people always underestimate the rate of change because they base it on the past. Not the future. At the same time, scientists know whats happening, that the future is rapidly growing more and more unpredictable, ad the only logical response to that rising level of risk if bad decisons are made is precaution. Its been spelled out formally in something called the precautionary principle.  Nothing is more under attack today than policies which reflect the precautionary principle. Whats being forced on us is every person atomized and alone against a united front of bad actor corporations and politicians who all have a vested interest in ever increasing dishonesty. ans elimination of any accountability. A case in point is the pressure thats being put on professionals by the harmonization of all regulations to their lowest common denominator, even when they should be harmonized upward. Only professionals have a voice to speak. So they must speak or society loses its one opportunity to save itself.

Many people now make the point that some (I think its a minority of corporations, still but the institutions driving this are pushing to make them worse) bad actor corporations (all corporations have been mistakenly given the same rights as people) are out of control. Around 1995 there was a legal shift and they now regulate countries, and not the other way around. But were being consciously deceived into thinking nothing has changed, when legally, things have a great deal. The effect is to try to make it impossible to get any accountability, ever.

Ever see "the old shell game" its a gambling game where people are asked to visually track money and guess what shell its under. A skilled shell game master will always have the people guess the wrong hand and they win a lot of money. Well, the same thing is being done to everything of value in the world. And its a huge social injustice that if left to continue has only one possible end, one so unspeakable I wont go into it. But, its totally wrong, and backwards. They dont own the world, we do. But they are so skillfully convincing us that they do because they intend to steal it, they are in fact stealing it. Because people have been dropping the ball, exhausted as they are by the fight for survival.

Technology is making it so nobody has to work, we often say.

the benefits of technology really should be shared with everybody in the work-less future.  But of course thats the oposite of capitalism which says that the investors get it all.   And there is no accountability. Its as if the whole world is being stolen by use of a straw man transaction, in order to insulate the illegitimate "owners" from the crime. But to pull this theft off requires society's consent, and to steal democracy requires them to be told its happening. So, those who steal it create unusual sets of circumstances that coincidentally, end up with them owning teh world. Our big mistake was putting trust in people who arent even people, they are legal fictions. Corporations.

corporations are designed so that the officers of the corporations are insulated from any responsibility for their actions.

This has turned out to be a huge disaster and now we're headed towards an environmental apocalypse in a number of terrifying ways. Understanding them requires an understanding of science. Speaking about them (and having the media or any public entity listen to you, especially in a formal setting requires credentials at a higher than undergraduate level, usually a doctorate in some field. Occasionally a masters degree. Engineers seem to be the sole exception, a profession that may be instantiated with some level of authority after only six or perhaps even four years. The era of the self taught expert in any field who is actually quoted in the media or respected as such, is being hastened to a close "on principle" globally even when there are no academic experts in a field because its so new.   That should scare people.

So, increasingly, the only people entrusted by society with the authority to speak are those with formal academic credentials in a field. Nobody else is allowed to speak. So they want those people with voices to be controllable, which often means misinformed.  They also want to make their jobs precarious. Like so many others. People in a state of economic fear are more amenable to "reason" as they put it.. (which in that context means corruption) Play the game and you'll be rewarded, stand up for the truth as you see it and you'll be ostracized or lose your job.

After all, in a factless scienceless world, money is everything.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 08:39:12 AM by cdev »
 
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Offline tautech

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #256 on: September 14, 2017, 01:03:50 PM »
Nailed it. ^^^  :-+
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Online Assafl

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #257 on: September 14, 2017, 06:12:41 PM »
Nailed it. ^^^  :-+

What nailed it? The world isn't about money. Never was. It was about resources and dividing up resources. Money is just a convenient way to enumerate resources. Resources, to their owner, provide a sense of security and, over time, power. That drives everyone. The alt left and right, the center, the workers, the bosses, everyone. Even the altruists.

The alt universe media (like Radio  Pacifica and now the alt right phenomena) have always been around. They are not new. Neither is corporation playing with the truth to get an advantage (and doing things like poisoning us with lead). What is new - and the only thing that is new - is the direct access to a never ending multiplicity of narratives.

Try experiments with your browser. Write vaccination and illnesses and death and Auspergers and autism. Suddenly Google and the rest of the popup world (and facebook) will start giving you access to the sinister world of people devoid of epidemiologists and immunologists - but they will have a doctor - maybe physics, maybe a math teacher, maybe a dentist - who'll say vaccinations are no longer important.

By typing a few words into Google and Facebook - the view of reality changed (Google's algorithms will serve as Blinkers do to horses - see the straight and narrow - what you want to see - nothing else). You'll actually have to spend time on the Sanofi Pasteur and Novartis sites and WebMD to get back to the "real" world (and how "real" is that "real" world - just a narrative favored by epidemiologists and immunologists).

Want a progressive agenda (possible close to what - I assume - cdev is looking at) - no problem. Be careful of Radio Pacifica and its ilk - and be careful of activism. Somewhere between CNN and Radio Pacifica. (albeit activists must be careful as they are routinely wooed by left and right anarchists). But be careful of the libertarians - they seem to be on the other side.

In the modern world you pick your reality. I don't know if it is scary or not - but some of my favorite SF writers (Philip K. Dick and Stanislaw Lem) wrote about confusing planes of reality and at least for them - the outcome was never good.

BTW - Think engineers are immune? Just read the thread where a noob asks about buying test equipment like a DMM. Two realities: 1. Buy cheap - and if you like it upgrade; 2. Buy the most expensive Cat III rated you can afford - since you are a NOOB you are likely to stuff the probes where no NOOB probe should go... and the Cat III will therefore save your life.

Two contradicting realities - both make logical sense and both can be argued ad-nauseum. In a post modern world both automatically have validity (which is where the problems start). The NOOB is asked to make a decision on something he can't. That is why he asked for our help in the first place! Acting like post-modern beacons of idealism - we let the Noobs down.

BTW - I don't believe both are valid. On a historical test - one would always buy a cheap Micronta - and if one were to find he likes the hobby - end up with a Fluke or an Amprobe or a Metrawatt. Or a VTVM. Not that Cat III is bad to have - but it was never a necessity - we are all here and alive.

However it is neglecting the simple realities that safety is a statistics game. An electrician wiring up distribution boards, is far more likely to make a mistake ONCE than a person who only ever works on mains rarely, and if that, at home. As for a NOOB using a Cat III in a distribution panel??? Somehow the ratings on the DMM would be the least of my worries: "See that bright copper bar? Please don't touch it.".

And consider the alternative. Supposing one cannot afford a Fluke. My landlord in Los Angeles would check the live wire by touching it (I literally cringed and never invited him to fix electricity again). Compared to touching a phase - the risk of an old Micronta multimeter is orders of magnitude better. So what if Gossen is even better....

But the alternate reality where everyone needs a Cat III DMM certainly looks good. I am sure it makes Danaher happy...

 
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 06:18:25 PM by Assafl »
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #258 on: September 14, 2017, 07:23:25 PM »
Having a few years under my belt and gone most of way through the education system and watched my kids go through it but I've had a stint in school governance and IMHO we have a lot to question of the manner in which our next generations are being molded for adulthood.....poorly !! Social agendas are laid before adulthood, before they have the ability to think for themselves.
Sure many just listen, watch or read most of the crap in the media today.....the wife calls them 'non-thinkers' and we see a good many here that couldn't be called such.
Only the very lucky have the luxury to think the world isn't about money......it can't buy you everything but most things it can.

Buying equipment.......well circumstances dictate only one thing....budget. Want to spend bugger all on some POS that won't last, then do so. Spend a bit more and know it should last....been there done that. When experience follows, safety and capabilities required dictate future choices. I'll stick with my USD70 Chinese Fluke 15B thanks, even for dist panel work around home and down the 3 phase shed.

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Offline Cerebus

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #259 on: September 14, 2017, 11:44:37 PM »
BTW - Think engineers are immune? Just read the thread where a noob asks about buying test equipment like a DMM. Two realities: 1. Buy cheap - and if you like it upgrade; 2. Buy the most expensive Cat III rated you can afford - since you are a NOOB you are likely to stuff the probes where no NOOB probe should go... and the Cat III will therefore save your life.

You misrepresent that discussion because there was at least one other argument put forward: buy a cheap secondhand Fluke, which seems to satisfy all the arguments.

I mention it for two reasons:
  • Firstly it's further evidence, as if that's needed, of my legendary wisdom and judgement, because it was I who proposed that solution.  :)
  • It demonstrates that even engineers can overlook inconvenient facts, and be selective in reporting the facts, in supporting their position in a political argument/discussion. Strangely this both supports your argument and simultaneously undermines your making of it. I find that perversely satisfying.
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Offline Galenbo

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #260 on: September 15, 2017, 05:22:01 PM »

All diodes matter.

Ban diodes, they are racist and discriminating, letting some electrons through, and others not.
Being professional is making money while showing less dedication than a hobbyist.
 

Offline A Hellene

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #261 on: September 15, 2017, 05:50:47 PM »
Ban diodes, they are racist and discriminating, letting some electrons through, and others not.

:-DD :-DD :-DD

That's the spirit!  ;)


-George
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 05:52:35 PM by A Hellene »
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Offline A Hellene

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #262 on: September 15, 2017, 06:04:09 PM »
Ban, also, this Battery Desulfator: It is chauvinist, speaking Hellenic, the national language of its designer! :P


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Offline Ducttape

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #263 on: September 16, 2017, 03:21:17 AM »
There is a concept in law called "Adverse posession" - it basically says that you can steal anything from anybody by taking it notoriously
I remember reading (quite some time ago) that a way to prevent that, without an immediate fight, is to give a potential 'adverse possessor' specific, but clearly temporary, permission to possess whatever is at stake. To be rescinded at whatever point in the future you change your mind. That prevents them from having the ability to possess adversely. I'm not a lawyer though.
 

Online Cubdriver

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #264 on: September 16, 2017, 04:16:46 AM »
I'd even propose that funding problems are a substantially greater risk to engineering department relevancy and quality than any social warrior.

Yes, but when the SJWs get into positions of power that let them hold the purse strings, they can then defund those evil, patriarchal engineering programs because they're not 'diverse' enough, any legitimate reasons for that lack of diversity (such as a lack of interest on the part of those they want more of in the programs) be damned.

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Offline John B

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #265 on: September 16, 2017, 06:40:30 AM »

All diodes matter.

Ban diodes, they are racist and discriminating, letting some electrons through, and others not.

Because diodes are privileged, you can't be discriminatory towards them. In fact, you can only be.....

....reversed biased.
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #266 on: September 16, 2017, 06:51:53 AM »
Because diodes are privileged, you can't be discriminatory towards them. In fact, you can only be.....

....reversed biased.

The cloakroom's that way ...
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Online cdev

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #267 on: September 16, 2017, 07:17:16 AM »
If those people who want to empower engineers don't succeed at that, as jobs dry up, the meritocracy of the talented that scientifically minded people idealize (for good reasons) and which characterizes high functioning organizations) will happen less and less - it will be replaced by something quite unpleasant.

Who is willing to pay a bribe under the table to get this or that assignment? Whose family has the best connections, so the jobs can be steered to them? Every exercise of discretion will become more likely to be poisoned by these external considerations, (literally.. consideration=bribe)

That will make all professions tedious and unpleasant for most people. Also it will make people sick. A growing body of science, on neuroimmunology and allostasis show these stressful situations cause illness at a level that makes them as dangerous as almost any other danger that scientists track statistically.

Certain kinds of threats (from things high on Maslow's hierarchy of needs) over short periods of time sharpen the senses but over long periods of time they kill brain cells and make people old before their time. The science is compelling, they make people sick.


-----

So what has changed in the world and society that people feel so strongly that people need re-empowering? (this is a very unscientific gut feeling analysis, but - you can take it as such and just weigh it, I may be right and I may be wrong- its a quite unpolished and somewhat unscientific and hypothetical guess at what might be happening.

There has been a fundamental shift in the law, driven by new theories in economics (that basically are another area I am unqualified to speak about)

, but my gut feeling is there is now a sort of cult of efficiency based around the concept of transaction costs  which is being used to justify the quit shifting away from promises which are costly to keep, when other opportunities might present themselves.

This shift has resulted in a push to change all the rules all around the world, and thats so far been largely successful. But peoples awareness of this shift is seen through the lens of class and most people in the US have only the vaguest idea of what might have changed. However, they do know something has changed.

 the powerful, have managed to create new rules that give them their way, in a plethora of situations which in my opinion is a very ugly thing. For example, these changes basically end democracy as we all define it.

Which is why its been done. Whats replaced it is a sort of might makes right, based on a narrow definition of short term economic output, in some cases, and long term economic output in others, with the powerful always getting the benefit of the laws falling tehir way, so its not fair nor is it a coincidence.. Its sort of alike heads I win, tails you lose.

and nothing else.

However, this breaks the social contract at many levels. However, its kept quiet because then the benefits of an incomplete contract accrue to the powerful for as long as possible. One side is getting the benefit of the others ignorance and they - therefore perform their side of a bargain they cant win based on assumptions which are unlikely to ever come true

For one thing, they would have to bring the potential conflict out into the open, something poor people never do, because they cant afford to.  The system is set up to punish people for asserting they even have these rights. Its very different than the situation as little as a few decades ago.

This is especially tryue, even ow for nonwhite people and women.
We desperately need higher rates of participation in society in technical professions. More viewpoints need to be heard and we need to recognize their value. There are numerous women whose contributions to science and engineering are largely unknown. Its also true they often feel marginalized. The highest functioning organizations are generally more inclusive ones.

My gut feeling has always been that women are the missing half of technology it needs to successfully navigate a complex future. Yes, they see things differently.  Women often have common sense men lack on an issue.  And they often have technical abilities that go under-recognized.

Also- there is the question of fitness to lead.


If a technical education is viewed as the gateway to managerial or leadership positions, (and in many contexts they are) people need balance.

There are all sorts of fundamental questions that a technical education  should include at least some of as it makes for a more balanced and thoughtful individual.

Maybe some dont see it but there is an extremely aggressive push now  to cheapen and turn all the technical professions into low valued cogs in a machine, low paid precarious jobs that require a difficult, often expensive education. This is a passive aggressive way of discouraging people from pursuing them so they can be given to others, for low pay.

If engineers and other technical professionals are stripped of their humanities education, they will be seen by society as high tech plumbers, which is what some want.

The push to turn technical work into precarious work will then be far more likely to be successful.
Society will be poorer and less likely to thrive because logically minded people (as opposed to game insiders) may eventually be shut out of leadership roles in society.

-----

Science is important..

For example, Assafi, you mentioned the phobia some people have for "immunizations" (and the phobia people have for discussing theissue in a scientific manner, which is not as simple as some would have us think.

The fears were at one point in time,somewhat based in an unfortunate use of a substance that had a small but nonzero chance of causing birth defects if a mother who was pregnant was exposed to it during pregnancy and she had low glutathione status. Its logical to extrapolate that from what we know about how pro oxidant substances cause changes in gene expression. The controversy over vaccines was based in fact to some extent, but, as far as I know, thimerosal is no longer used. Now peoples main sources of mercury exposure are environmental sources - some of which are far more toxic because one form of mercury, methylmercury is extremely toxic. all emerged from the use of thimerosal, a preservative made with mercury that is no longer used. However, there is some important science that underlies the whole issue and its the science of toxicology which is choosing to ignore an important fact that engineers should be able to grasp. That a substance called glutathione - one of the most important ways our bodies cope with toxic substances, is a finite resource in the body that can be used up by increased exposure to a plethora of toxic substances, making them all additive. Their effects on fetuses during a particular period of cell differentiation are mediated by reactive oxygen species. Taking more of the precursor of glutathione, cysteine, an amino acid, blocks the toxicity.

Some parts of society refuse to integrate this knowledge because they dont want to deal with the fact that a good percentage of toxic substances have additive effects and should be regulated in a manner that recognizes that - recognized as such, so it attempts to hide the facts which will inform that debate by attempting to turn issues that might lead to an informed, scientific discussion of glutathione trigger attacks as nonscientific. However, the underlying fact that ones glutathione status often determines the effect on the body a toxic substance has, is long proven science.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 09:51:07 AM by cdev »
 

Offline R005T3r

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #268 on: September 16, 2017, 06:12:52 PM »
Sience is the ONLY truth and is valid everywhere in the universe... Even if we have baised textbook, those who are willing to see the truth behind the bais shall be successful and archive great potential, those who won't will fail to do so.Engegneering is not an opinion... And mixing science with politics, society or other things is just pointless...

About an open education: it might be a good thing, since anyone could be a new genius and don't even know it yet..
 

Online Assafl

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #269 on: September 16, 2017, 06:47:50 PM »
Science is important..

For example, Assafi, you mentioned the phobia some people have for "immunizations" (and the phobia people have for discussing theissue in a scientific manner, which is not as simple as some would have us think.

The fears were at one point in time,somewhat based in an unfortunate use of a substance that had a small but nonzero chance of causing birth defects if a mother who was pregnant was exposed to it during pregnancy and she had low glutathione status. Its logical to extrapolate that from what we know about how pro oxidant substances cause changes in gene expression. The controversy over vaccines was based in fact to some extent, but, as far as I know, thimerosal is no longer used. Now peoples main sources of mercury exposure are environmental sources - some of which are far more toxic because one form of mercury, methylmercury is extremely toxic. all emerged from the use of thimerosal, a preservative made with mercury that is no longer used. However, there is some important science that underlies the whole issue and its the science of toxicology which is choosing to ignore an important fact that engineers should be able to grasp. That a substance called glutathione - one of the most important ways our bodies cope with toxic substances, is a finite resource in the body that can be used up by increased exposure to a plethora of toxic substances, making them all additive. Their effects on fetuses during a particular period of cell differentiation are mediated by reactive oxygen species. Taking more of the precursor of glutathione, cysteine, an amino acid, blocks the toxicity.

Some parts of society refuse to integrate this knowledge because they dont want to deal with the fact that a good percentage of toxic substances have additive effects and should be regulated in a manner that recognizes that - recognized as such, so it attempts to hide the facts which will inform that debate by attempting to turn issues that might lead to an informed, scientific discussion of glutathione trigger attacks as nonscientific. However, the underlying fact that ones glutathione status often determines the effect on the body a toxic substance has, is long proven science.

No-one (especially me) argued that continually checking the best available knowhow isn't critical. That is how we discovered that the sage advise that sugar is good - isn't really so. Or that AC theory beats DC theory for communications (poor Oliver Heaviside).

But people live longer. Unfortunately (or fortunately) - they still die. And they are afraid to. And because keeping them alive is complex (example is giving the worst of poisons - called chemotherapy - to cancer patients) - and complexity is a bear to the intellect - the SJW decide to compromise and go to "something" simpler - like organic. Or faith healers (I mean - it worked in the past when people died in their 50s-60s - didn't it?), or avoiding vaccinations or treating cancer.

So from a scientific perspective all SJW do is fight for the right to be wrong. Their choice. It may work well in philosophy school. But it doesn't work in a scientific context or a university engineering or science major.

(note - edited to stay OT based on Dave's comment below - at least I hope this is now OT...).
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 07:05:14 PM by Assafl »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #270 on: September 16, 2017, 06:53:43 PM »
If we can't stick to the topic here then the thread will be locked.
 

Offline A Hellene

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #271 on: September 16, 2017, 08:53:50 PM »
Unfortunately, those fanatical followers of any any kind of society degradation doctrines are not only hurting Science, since they are hurting Education in parallel. And a widespread, but unofficial also, form of mass education is the recreational films industry, where the vast majority of our global society of uneducated individuals is 'learning' the officially distorted form of history from.

Explaining myself, a good movie may appear every once in a while. In my opinion, this could be Christopher Nolan's historically accurate anti-war drama 'Dunkirk (2017)', being 'dressed' by the outstanding music of Hans Zimmer, whose imposing tempo peaks the intensity and the anxiety of the viewer. According to USA Today, Brian Truitt review, 'It’s less a movie and more a close encounter of the combative kind: You feel every bolt rattle in the cockpit of a dogfighting Spitfire, every stressful moment with the choice of drowning or surfacing in an oil fire, and every thought of certain doom for the infantrymen trapped on a beach when a bomb comes whizzing out of the sky.' In my opinion, this is a wonderful movie worth watching on the screen and not on a DVD.

But the sick media world, horrendously saw a film in which there are no female heroines and no black protagonists. And they shuddered... Some others were annoyed because they did not hear the word 'Nazi' or even 'German', but only the word 'enemy', while others broke their garments because the 'Nazi barbarism' was not highlighted in the film; let that there was not even a mention of the mandatory 'Holocaust (TM)'...

For example:
- Too Many White Men At Dunkirk,
- Review of war epic ‘Dunkirk’: Film shows just ‘a couple of women and no lead actors of color’,
- Dunkirk: the film that has rightwing writers itching for a culture war,
- Twitter unhappy about ‘Dunkirk’ being historically ... accurate?, et cetera...


-George
Hi! This is George; and I am three and a half years old!
(This was one of my latest realisations, now in my early fifties!...)
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #272 on: September 16, 2017, 10:04:18 PM »
Someone doesn't listen and we get Godwin's law. Thread locked.
 
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