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Offline coppice

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #75 on: September 05, 2017, 09:56:18 PM »
So until there is demonstrably equal opportunity and equally available support and encouragement across the board, the whole "but maybe X people are just less interested" argument is a big fucking red herring.  This is basic science: you can't isolate one variable unless you can control all of the others.  You can't isolate interest without normalizing encouragement, instruction, funding, and culture.

Listen to Jorden Peterson above (who BTW, has spent his career researching such things) and follow the Nordic case studies.
Apparently they have tried to level the playing field in almost every respect, and did isolate the variable, bringing it back to inherent interest differences in men and women, and the result was that there was still that large split.
I did go look into the references for this once but didn't get far, but I'm sure it's out there for those interested.
You need to be really careful looking at research like that. If it were a fairly solid analysis of human behaviour you would expect a similar percentage of female engineers across the world. In practice you don't. In some Eastern European countries there appear to be a fairly large number of female engineers (I say appear as I have no first hand experience). You find a lot more female engineers in India than in Western Europe or the US, and a lot of the female engineers I encounter in the US are ethically Indian.

Boys are bathed in male stuff and girls are bathed in female stuff from their day of birth. By the time you can start to study their preferences you are way beyond being able to separate nature from nurture. All we know is that by the time they grow up, in societies where people are not strongly coerced into a certain set of roles, girls will tend to chose different roles from boys.

An important point people ignore, by looking too narrowly, is that in while in most engineering and physics related topics there are few women, women dominate in biology (although not as strongly as men dominate in engineering. Its more like a 2:1 ratio). If you look at the gender mix across all science and engineering roles the balance is far less skewed than just looking at engineering. WE NEED MORE BOYS STUDYING BIOLOGY, or not, as the case may be.  :)
 
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Offline coppice

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #76 on: September 05, 2017, 09:59:12 PM »
(I can tell this anecdotally, when there were only one or two women in my high school physics class comprised almost entirely of males. Similarly for chemistry and mathematics. I don't think this was statistically representative of the abilities across the student intake.)

Ability shouldn't be the driver, interest should be the driver.
You can build and learn ability, but it's much harder to build and instill interest in something to someone who doesn't have interest in that area.
Saying one or the other should be a driver makes no sense. Without ability, interest is useless. Without interest, you just won't persist. People need a balance to be effective.

Excellence comes from obsession, and obsession comes from interest, but the most obsessed person gets nowhere without ability.
 

Offline alank2

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #77 on: September 05, 2017, 10:25:43 PM »
Apparently they have tried to level the playing field in almost every respect, and did isolate the variable, bringing it back to inherent interest differences in men and women, and the result was that there was still that large split.

Apparently, it would seem, that their assertion that men and women are exactly the same would be false...  Who knew.

In the current social climate would the SJW crowd be satisfied if 50% of male engineers decided to identify as women?

They probably would be, except that they are never satisfied.

Trying to reprogram male engineers to be less sexist, regardless how bad it is, is not the task of an engineering school. You can offer a small amounts of humanities, but in the end that's not what anyone is there for. White/Asian men or other minorities/women.

I agree, but now, we can't have men just going about mainsplainin' needlessly.  Remember, men bad men bad.  In fact, we need to make sure and teach that every masculine trait is labeled bad so that men will act like and operate just as if they were women.  Who is oppressing who now?  I guess it is all ok so long as the right people are being oppressed.

Why can't people simply accept that only a few women are interested in engineering? It's neither a problem, nor does it need to be fixed.

It goes against their untouchable core idea that men and women are exactly the same.  And they will fight it with lies, deception, skewed statistics, and of course social change.
 

Offline HackedFridgeMagnet

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #78 on: September 05, 2017, 10:51:24 PM »
Quote
Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
I'm not worried. I doubt they will succeed.

Another area with female under representation is the trades. Especially electrical and plumbing.
Probably carpenters and mechanics too but I haven't heard figures on these.
Not as many complaints about this AFAICT.

Plenty of female law students though. I don't know why they would choose Law over Engineering. Maybe someone should ask them.
 

Offline TwoOfFive

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #79 on: September 05, 2017, 10:53:14 PM »
I'd imagine that lawyers tend to make obscene amounts of money. If I was just concerned about salary I would not really be going into engineering. I'd probably become a doctor or a lawyer of some sort. If I really want to hedge my bets in life and get rich, I'd look into business, trade, and stock brokerage.
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Online Brumby

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #80 on: September 05, 2017, 11:14:46 PM »
I'd imagine that lawyers tend to make obscene amounts of money. If I was just concerned about salary I would not really be going into engineering. I'd probably become a doctor or a lawyer of some sort. If I really want to hedge my bets in life and get rich, I'd look into business, trade, and stock brokerage.

You shouldn't be so casual about "settling" for being a doctor or lawyer.

When I studied at Uni I was informed that EE was the third most challenging course.  The next up was Law and the top was Medicine.
 

Offline Hero999

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #81 on: September 05, 2017, 11:16:34 PM »
Mansplained, by a white, male.   :palm:

Please, for the love of God, tell me you're joking!

No.  Wouldn't one think to ask women *why* they choose nursing over engineering and base one's conclusions at least partly upon a response from the demographic?  Wouldn't *that* be smart?
Could it not be due to innate differences between the male and female genders?

Perhaps most women will select nurturing role, such as nursing, over engineering, because that's what interests them most?

If so, then why? Some may call me sexist for saying this, but don't women generally have a more nurturing role in society? Irrespective of what any government does, females will always have a greater role in childcare than males. They're designed to carry the baby for 9 months, plus nurse it for another year. It's hardly surprising they tend to select a nurturing role, over a technical one!

Human nature, i.e. instinct cannot be changed, even if many people believe it would be good for society if it could be.
 

Offline TwoOfFive

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #82 on: September 05, 2017, 11:23:10 PM »
I'd imagine that lawyers tend to make obscene amounts of money. If I was just concerned about salary I would not really be going into engineering. I'd probably become a doctor or a lawyer of some sort. If I really want to hedge my bets in life and get rich, I'd look into business, trade, and stock brokerage.

You shouldn't be so casual about "settling" for being a doctor or lawyer.

When I studied at Uni I was informed that EE was the third most challenging course.  The next up was Law and the top was Medicine.

I know exactly how difficult it is, and that's why they get paid so much. I'm just saying that I know I could do it. I've been incredibly successful in my schooling so far.
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Online EEVblog

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #83 on: September 05, 2017, 11:30:45 PM »
To be clear: I believe that university education should be multi-dimensional. Of course an engineering school should rigorously teach engineering, but writing, economics, history, and the social aspects of college should all be an integral and essential part of higher education, IMO.

There wasn't enough time in the 12 years of compulsory full time study previously?  :-//
If someone pays to go to university of their own free will to specialise in a field of study, why on earth should they be forced to learn all that stuff?
Make no mistake, engineering degrees that go down this path will have a very bleak future.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2017, 11:38:47 PM by EEVblog »
 
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Offline TwoOfFive

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #84 on: September 05, 2017, 11:36:45 PM »
To be clear: I believe that university education should be multi-dimensional. Of course an engineering school should rigorously teach engineering, but writing, economics, history, and the social aspects of college should all be an integral and essential part of higher education, IMO.

There wasn't enough time in the 12 years of compulsory full time study previously?  :-//
If someone pays to go to university of their own free will to specialise in a field of study, why on earth should they be forced to learn all that stuff?

I agree and disagree. There are some bullshit classes that they make you take (Like history. We've already been lectured on the same boring crap in the mandatory schooling, why do we gotta learn more about the same thing?) however there are examples like writing and different sciences that apply to the field of electronics engineering. It's those topics that will actually come in handy, and should be taught.

It's also the matter that they either have to meet a certain credit quota for students, and that they want to sell more classes, (Even not for profit schools still need to make money to keep the lights on and the doors open.)

There are things in the US like CLEP, which are tests you can take to immediately qualify for college credit without taking the class needed. It's basically like taking the final of a class without taking any of the lessons, and if you pass you get credit, and don't need to do any of that. I plan to take college composition (because I hate doing it) and history (something that I don't mind doing in general, but I don't really want to be forced into anyways).

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #85 on: September 05, 2017, 11:41:32 PM »
To be clear: I believe that university education should be multi-dimensional. Of course an engineering school should rigorously teach engineering, but writing, economics, history, and the social aspects of college should all be an integral and essential part of higher education, IMO.

There wasn't enough time in the 12 years of compulsory full time study previously?  :-//
If someone pays to go to university of their own free will to specialise in a field of study, why on earth should they be forced to learn all that stuff?

I agree and disagree. There are some bullshit classes that they make you take (Like history. We've already been lectured on the same boring crap in the mandatory schooling, why do we gotta learn more about the same thing?) however there are examples like writing and different sciences that apply to the field of electronics engineering. It's those topics that will actually come in handy, and should be taught.

Sure, but that's not the example here in this thread.
The alarming example at Purdue is:
Quote
"The recently appointed dean of Purdue’s school, Dr. Donna Riley, has an ambitious agenda.

In her words (italics mine): “I seek to revise engineering curricula to be relevant to a fuller range of student experiences and career destinations, integrating concerns related to public policy, professional ethics, and social responsibility; de-centering Western civilization; and uncovering contributions of women and other underrepresented groups…. We examine how technology influences and is influenced by globalization, capitalism, and colonialism…. Gender is a key…[theme]…[throughout] the course…. We…[examine]… racist and colonialist projects in science….”
 

Offline sibeen

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #86 on: September 05, 2017, 11:51:31 PM »
Me think you doth protest too much , Dave. Surely a quick semester course in comparative religion would improve your skills. Somewhat. At least a bit. Maybe.

 

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #87 on: September 05, 2017, 11:53:01 PM »
Me think you doth protest too much , Dave. Surely a quick semester course in comparative religion would improve your skills. Somewhat. At least a bit. Maybe.
:-DD
Or some feline studies.  ;D
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Offline Howardlong

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #88 on: September 05, 2017, 11:54:16 PM »
As a minor aside to add some levity to the discussion, if you key in to Google "internalized oppression", a phrase bandied about these days in connection with sexism, misogyny, racism etc, Google currently shows a picture of Youtuber Ethan Klein. Nice bit of Google AI at work there.

« Last Edit: September 05, 2017, 11:56:06 PM by Howardlong »
 

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #89 on: September 06, 2017, 12:22:19 AM »
No.  Wouldn't one think to ask women *why* they choose nursing over engineering and base one's conclusions at least partly upon a response from the demographic?  Wouldn't *that* be smart?
Could it not be due to innate differences between the male and female genders?

Perhaps most women will select nurturing role, such as nursing, over engineering, because that's what interests them most?

If so, then why? Some may call me sexist for saying this, but don't women generally have a more nurturing role in society? Irrespective of what any government does, females will always have a greater role in childcare than males. They're designed to carry the baby for 9 months, plus nurse it for another year. It's hardly surprising they tend to select a nurturing role, over a technical one!

As someone else mentioned before, if you are interested in this stuff then go watch Jordon Petersons videos and lectures on the subject, they are fascinating, he's one of the world's leading researchers in this area. And yes, on average, innate gender differences play a huge role, if not the dominate role in this case, there is a ton of research on the topic.
But that's not the reason a lot of people want to hear.
However, be careful, Peterson has become somewhat of a poster child for this topic, and just the act of posting one of his university lectures can get you branded a misogynist for life  ::)
 

Offline sokoloff

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #90 on: September 06, 2017, 12:29:56 AM »
To be clear: I believe that university education should be multi-dimensional. Of course an engineering school should rigorously teach engineering, but writing, economics, history, and the social aspects of college should all be an integral and essential part of higher education, IMO.
There wasn't enough time in the 12 years of compulsory full time study previously?  :-//
The problem isn't the 12 years, it's that the brain isn't/wasn't fully/sufficiently developed then. My 6 year old just went off to 1st grade. How much economics and history is he going to productively learn in the next 3 years?

How much contextualizing of justice topics can a hormones-raging, not-working, allowance-receiving 15 year-old do?
If someone pays to go to university of their own free will to specialise in a field of study, why on earth should they be forced to learn all that stuff?
Make no mistake, engineering degrees that go down this path will have a very bleak future.
I will be sad to see the sharp devaluation of my MIT degree then.
 

Offline Marco

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #91 on: September 06, 2017, 12:49:13 AM »
All that money wasted on the university lunch plan when beans, rice, and cheese would be a perfectly sustaining source of calories.
They should give the dorms better kitchens and induce the students to set up dining groups.

Quote
Of course an engineering school should rigorously teach engineering, but writing, economics, history, and the social aspects of college should all be an integral and essential part of higher education, IMO.
You don't have the time to get much deeper into all those than high school. Just let the student pick between some humanities courses related to engineering (ethics of engineering, philosophy of science etc) or humanities undergrad courses.

Don't give them mandatory social justice courses though.

How much contextualizing of justice topics can a hormones-raging, not-working, allowance-receiving 15 year-old do?
How much contextualizing of propaganda can a 20 year old student do?
« Last Edit: September 06, 2017, 12:53:06 AM by Marco »
 

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #92 on: September 06, 2017, 01:28:22 AM »
OK, so we had topics about that "science is racist", now we have topics about "engineering is sexist". Great. Did anyone mention James Damore already? He said:

-Maybe Google should hire people based on their knowledge and skill, not race or sex. You know, because that is racist and sexist.
-You are racist and sexist and fired. - said google.

So yeah. It is easy to make conversation about this. There is one group, which comes up with evidence supporting the claims, and another group, who said that "it should be this way and if you disagree, then I will publicly humiliate you and call you a Nazi." Education is a free market. Everyone has a choice. I never hear anyone crying that they wanted to be an engineer, but they couldn't* because they are born some way. So what should we do. Make people choose something they dont want to do?

*Ah, that is actually untrue. There is something that can be in the way (for some 50% in my uni. class), and was in the way for a lot of people. They couldn't finish university, because their grades were bad.
 
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Offline vodka

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #93 on: September 06, 2017, 01:36:28 AM »
I'm going to be awful misogynist , male chauvinist and incorrect politically.

1.The medecine, biology , chemist, nursering ,etc all have some on common . The mayor part of the matter have to MEMORIZE. On resume ,the girls and women  tend to memorize(like parrot) when they are learning.

2.The girls and women tend to be very obedient and they don't tend to dispute the stuffs. They will tend to be lambs.

3. The girls and women tend to lose the head with the babies and low-age kids and when they can't supply these wishes, they tend to work on place  where there are children like kindergardens, schools and pedriatics.

All these afirmations have been recompiled of my own experiences with  classroom mates (both sex ).   



 

Offline alank2

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #94 on: September 06, 2017, 02:05:32 AM »
It doesn't have to be a good girl bad guy situation.  It can be a good guy good girl situation.  There are things women can do that men cannot.  There are things men can do that women cannot.  Both can do well, especially when leveraging these differences together.  The truth is that with the current agenda (men and women are same) that not men nor women will be special, unique, appreciated, etc. for what each can bring.  The entire idea is foolishness and it will only bring trouble and division to everything it touches...
 

Offline A Hellene

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #95 on: September 06, 2017, 02:58:33 AM »
There is a brilliant book called: Why Men Don't Listen and Women Can't Read Maps (Allan Pease, 2001); with some luck it can be found online!

In a few words, male and female mammals (really, have we ever stopped being mammals?) have a very different brain wiring; the book is about our archetypical (the deep-down instinctive) differences.


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(This was one of my latest realisations, now in my early fifties!...)
 
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Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #96 on: September 06, 2017, 02:59:32 AM »
Can you spot any differences in the picture below?
It's subtle; you might have to look closely.

Both these magazines are driven by market forces and are doing what sells.  While they are strongly reinforcing gender stereotypes, the market has already been formed.  In my family I have noticed these trends in children barely able to walk and talk.  In spite of strong encouragement by parents and grandparents to be interested in technical topics and careers.  I can't tell you whether this is the result of inherent characteristics, unconscious training by family members or societal influences but it is very real.
 

Offline Hero999

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #97 on: September 06, 2017, 03:09:33 AM »
I'm going to be awful misogynist , male chauvinist and incorrect politically.

1.The medecine, biology , chemist, nursering ,etc all have some on common . The mayor part of the matter have to MEMORIZE. On resume ,the girls and women  tend to memorize(like parrot) when they are learning.

2.The girls and women tend to be very obedient and they don't tend to dispute the stuffs. They will tend to be lambs.

3. The girls and women tend to lose the head with the babies and low-age kids and when they can't supply these wishes, they tend to work on place  where there are children like kindergardens, schools and pedriatics.

All these afirmations have been recompiled of my own experiences with  classroom mates (both sex ).
I'll bite.

1) You've obviously not studied medicine, biology and chemistry. They rely on a deep level of understanding, not just memory.

2) Probably true to some extent. Women do tent to be more submissive, than men and this is not a bad thing, just a difference.

3) I wouldn't agree with that. Men tend to loose their temper with the children more often, than women and are more likely to resort to corporal punishment. Women are generally more empathetic, than men, which makes them better suited to caring for younger children.

No.  Wouldn't one think to ask women *why* they choose nursing over engineering and base one's conclusions at least partly upon a response from the demographic?  Wouldn't *that* be smart?
Could it not be due to innate differences between the male and female genders?

Perhaps most women will select nurturing role, such as nursing, over engineering, because that's what interests them most?

If so, then why? Some may call me sexist for saying this, but don't women generally have a more nurturing role in society? Irrespective of what any government does, females will always have a greater role in childcare than males. They're designed to carry the baby for 9 months, plus nurse it for another year. It's hardly surprising they tend to select a nurturing role, over a technical one!

As someone else mentioned before, if you are interested in this stuff then go watch Jordon Petersons videos and lectures on the subject, they are fascinating, he's one of the world's leading researchers in this area. And yes, on average, innate gender differences play a huge role, if not the dominate role in this case, there is a ton of research on the topic.
But that's not the reason a lot of people want to hear.
However, be careful, Peterson has become somewhat of a poster child for this topic, and just the act of posting one of his university lectures can get you branded a misogynist for life  ::)
I agree.

Various counterarguments to what I've said rely on social pressure and that things have changed since the stone age, but the trend is similar across cultures and basic human psychology hasn't changed since the stone age. Another problem some people will have with my comment is that it's a generalisation and shouldn't be used as an excuse for sexism, which I happen to agree with. Generally women may be less interested in engineering, but that doesn't mean they should be discouraged from a career in engineering or discriminated against, if they are interested in it.

I do think some feminists have a reason to be unhappy, with the status quo. I blame capitalism, rather than socialism. The problem is: a) society seems to value money over everything else and b) nurturing roles are typically paid less than technical ones. Perhaps both need addressing? Society needs to be less materialistic and pay nurturing roles more.

Is there sexism in society? Yes. There is a problem with unequal pay. To some extent, this may be unavoidable, as more women will take career brakes, to raise a family, than men will but even when this is taken into account, the gap persists. Look at the BBC's top paid list, as an example. They're mostly men, who get paid for doing exactly the same as their female co-stars.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-40653383
« Last Edit: September 06, 2017, 03:11:41 AM by Hero999 »
 

Offline alank2

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #98 on: September 06, 2017, 03:33:51 AM »
The so called "equal pay" issue isn't specifically a male/female issue.  There are many men who make more than other men because they are simply stronger, better, more capable, or simply a better negotiator.  Men are not paid the same for the same job!  They don't even perform the same from man to man.  Yet we hear about how it is a male/female issue.  It is not.  It is the way capitalism works.  Dare I say that capitalism doesn't care what sex you are - those in the most need will be paid the most.  Those who have the most to offer a company will be the best paid.  Everything else is just whining.  Honestly, I think equal pay is just some sort of social back door to socialism or communism.

Shouldn't a harder more specialized job like a technical one be paid more than a nurturing role that might be challenging, but more people can do it effectively?  There is that capitalism again.
 

Offline Hero999

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #99 on: September 06, 2017, 03:52:29 AM »
The so called "equal pay" issue isn't specifically a male/female issue.  There are many men who make more than other men because they are simply stronger, better, more capable, or simply a better negotiator.  Men are not paid the same for the same job!  They don't even perform the same from man to man.  Yet we hear about how it is a male/female issue.  It is not.  It is the way capitalism works.  Dare I say that capitalism doesn't care what sex you are - those in the most need will be paid the most.  Those who have the most to offer a company will be the best paid.  Everything else is just whining.  Honestly, I think equal pay is just some sort of social back door to socialism or communism.

Shouldn't a harder more specialized job like a technical one be paid more than a nurturing role that might be challenging, but more people can do it effectively?  There is that capitalism again.
Did you check out the BBC's top paid list?

I disagree with the BBC's decision to pay Chris Evans more than his peers. He doesn't contribute more to ratings than the other stars, not that should be important to a public service broadcaster.

I can see your point about negotiation, which may be true to some extent.
 


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