Author Topic: Puzzling Cern,it appears subatomic particles have exceeded the speed of light.  (Read 17675 times)

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Online ejeffrey

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I just watched the CERN live webcast.  Great stuff.  The archive is not online yet, but I expect it to be available shortly here:

http://cdsweb.cern.ch/collection/Video%20Lectures

I will dig through the arxiv paper when I get the chance -- probably tomorrow.
 

Offline FreeThinker

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Where's DR Cox when you need him?
Machines were mice and Men were lions once upon a time, but now that it's the opposite it's twice upon a time.
MOONDOG
 

Offline AntiProtonBoy

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While they use photon counting detectors, neutrino detection is not a single photon event, and the SNR is actually quite high. 
Yep fair enough. But would you consider 16111 events over a span of ~3 years to be high SNR? That's not a lot!

 

Offline FreeThinker

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"So let me put my money where my mouth is: if the Cern experiment proves to be correct and neutrinos have broken the speed of light, I will eat my boxer shorts on live TV."


I would love to see that. It's small minded people like that that start wars! CERN is to high profile to make an announcement like this without being on firm ground (so to speak). They have put up their hands and said they do not know the answer but would like someone to check the results.If (when) confirmed it will be anew era in physics. By the waywasn't the world supposed  to end sometime back due to some testing at CERN?
Machines were mice and Men were lions once upon a time, but now that it's the opposite it's twice upon a time.
MOONDOG
 

Offline AntiProtonBoy

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Well neutrinos are not somthing detectable in a bunch, some neutrinos are very hard to detect and trace. The detectors are very big. This is somthing that takes years to check and confirm.
Yes, I made that point earlier.
 

Offline SgtRock

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Greetings EEVBees:

--I is very clear to me from reading some of the comments, that some of you have absolutely no idea what Einstein was getting at. Sheesh. Several of you, notably Ejeffery, and AntiProtonBoy were paying attention during physics class, and are a able to give a cogent explanation.

--I you cannot even give a brief explanation of what General Relativity is, then why the bloody h*ll would you want to opine at all. It is not just "a theory" is is the theory. I now see why some "engineers" think governments can tax "the people" into prosperity.

--I think I know where the error is. I have a friend, who has a friend, whose brother-in-law works at the Gran Sasso facility. According to him, some of the critical equipment was constructed using a cheap Chinese clone, and not a real "Stanley Measuring Tape".

“I do believe that it's the first time in history that fire has ever melted steel." Rosie O'Donnell

Best Regards
Clear Ether
 

Offline Kozmyk

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Homo superior strikes again.

We'll all have to wait and see won't we.

Takes our minds off the wait for the Higgs Boson to reveal itself.
 

Offline TheWelly888

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I can see an application of this: at the moment speed cameras rely on photo flashs to catch motorists exceeding the speed limit on the road but they have the limitation that they cannot catch drivers driving at the speed of light. The nest generation of speed cameras will use those neutrino particles to catch those motorists driving at the speed of light!

 ;)
You can do anything with the right attitude and a hammer.
 

Offline ciccio

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You were not informed correctly:
there is a tunnel from Cern to Gran Sasso labs, at least according to the italian Governmnet:
http://www.istruzione.it/web/ministero/cs230911.
The translation (at my best, Google does not work at it's best with politichese , e.g. the Italian used by politics):
Ministry of Education, University and Research
Press Office
Rome, September 23, 2011
Statement by the Minister Mariastella Gelmini
"The discovery at CERN in Geneva and the Institute of Physics is a scientific event of the utmost importance."
I extend my applause and my sincerest congratulations to the authors of a historical experiment. I am deeply grateful to all the Italian researchers who contributed to this event that will change the face of modern physics.
Exceeding the speed of light is a momentous victory for scientific research around the world.

Italy has contributed a sum now estimated at around 45 million euros to the construction of the tunnel between CERN and Gran Sasso Laboratories, through which the experiment took place
In addition, Italy today supports  CERN with absolute conviction, through a contribution of more than 80 million euros per year and the events we are experiencing are confirming that it is a correct and far-sighted choice ".
 
That's all: This lady (who has absolutely no competence in instruction and research but sometimes has problem with the Italian language) has, in the last 3 years, destroyed Italy's public schools and Universities, by reducing funding to public institutes and increasing funding to private institutes, most of them owned by the Catholic Church, in excange for some forgiveness by the high-ranking clergymens  for the Prime Minister's personal sins.
To-day the Minister has released another document, asserting that the controversy is ridicoulos: it is evident that the tunnel is the one inside the CERN structure, which means that I'm totally stupid.

I'm tired: how can I get another nationality? Can some forum member guarantee for me?
Ciccio

Strenua Nos Exercet Inertia
 

Offline AntiProtonBoy

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Quote
Statement by the Minister Mariastella Gelmini
"The discovery at CERN in Geneva and the Institute of Physics is a scientific event of the utmost importance."
I extend my applause and my sincerest congratulations to the authors of a historical experiment. I am deeply grateful to all the Italian researchers who contributed to this event that will change the face of modern physics.
Exceeding the speed of light is a momentous victory for scientific research around the world.
She is totally jumping the gun here.
 

Online ejeffrey

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You were not informed correctly:
there is a tunnel from Cern to Gran Sasso labs, at least according to the italian Governmnet:
http://www.istruzione.it/web/ministero/cs230911.

The italian government can say whetever they want, there is no 730 km long tunnel from CERN to Gran Sasso.  There is a tunnel (which also carries car traffic) that provides entrance to the underground lab where the detector resides in order to shield it from the cosmic ray background.

The tunnel is significant because they have accurate survey markers at the ends of the tunnel, but had to use a series of laser triangulations to accurately find the position of the detector underground in order to compute accurate time-of-flight information.

Here is information about their facility:

http://www.lngs.infn.it/lngs_infn/index.htm?mainRecord=http://www.lngs.infn.it/lngs_infn/contents/lngs_en/public/about/
 

Offline SgtRock

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Dear Ciccio:

--No doubt you were mislead by the faulty understanding of the journalist. Journalists often have a faulty understanding of physical matters, and frequently this is a help to them in their persuit of policy objectives, but in this case it was probably inadvertent.

--Since on average a neutrino could pass through 27 light years (255264883798176000 meters) of lead before being stopped, a 730 km tunnel is not necessary. All that is needed is a short tunnel at each end of the projected path, so that lasers, in combination with the GPS, can be used to construct an extremely precise geometrical argument for its length. It does not seem likely that the mistake is here, more likely is an intermittent timing error.

--If, in the extremely unlikely case that there is no systematic error, these results indeed will knock everything into a cocked hat.

"World consumption of oil is still going up. If it were possible to keep it rising during the 1970s and 1980s by 5 percent a year as it has in the past, we could use up all the proven reserves of oil in the entire world by the end of the next decade." Jimmy Carter 1977

Best Regards
Clear Ether
 

Offline ciccio

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The italian government can say whetever they want, there is no 730 km long tunnel from CERN to Gran Sasso. 
I know very well that there is no tunnel from CERN to Gran Sasso.
I got, many years ago, a degree in Nuclear Engineering, and many of my university colleagues worked or still work in one or the other facilities. I visited both of them (years ago).
It's the ministry that does non know it, but says they have payed 45 millions of euros for something that does not exist...
--No doubt you were mislead by the faulty understanding of the journalist.
Sorry, but I was not mislead: the one that was mislead is the Italian minister (or maybe some of her collaborators): the link I've posted is from the official internet site of the Ministry of (dis)Education, University and Research (and it's still there: every Italian newspaper is joking about this, but they leave it on line and don't amend it).

The fact is that my patience is limited, and I cannot accept that my intelligence is constantly  insulted by these *****.

Best Regards
Ciccio

Strenua Nos Exercet Inertia
 

Offline IanB

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Well, you know, it's obvious that particles cannot travel through 730 km of solid rock  ;D There must be a tunnel, it stands to reason...  ::)
I'm not an EE--what am I doing here?
 

Online ejeffrey

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The italian government can say whetever they want, there is no 730 km long tunnel from CERN to Gran Sasso. 
I know very well that there is no tunnel from CERN to Gran Sasso.

Sorry, I didn't read you post carefully enough.
 

Offline IanB

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Actually, I haven't read the paper yet (and it might go over my head anyway), but one commentator remarked how the earth's surface is an accelerating frame of reference due to its rotation. One presumes the researchers must have allowed for this, since it is so obvious, but even so, can obvious things get overlooked when they are right in front of your nose?
I'm not an EE--what am I doing here?
 

Offline SgtRock

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Dear Ciccio:

--I apologize for missing the ironic nature of your post. I neglected to read the entire quotation of the minister's speech, because I expected it to be stupid and untrue, like most of the things our US cabinet officers say. But it fooled me, it was not only stupid it was unbelievably imbecilic.

--In the US we have a representative from Texas who wondered aloud if the Mars Rover was going to visit the flag the US astronauts left the last time they were there. We have another high official who thinks the US has 57 states, and that they speak Austrian in Austria. So do not feel like the Lone Ranger.

"Does not squirrel crack nuts on bough of tree" Lao Fu

Best Regards
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 02:00:07 am by SgtRock »
 

Offline AntiProtonBoy

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Quote
--In the US we have a representative from Texas who wondered aloud if the Mars Rover was going to visit the flag the US astronauts left the last time they were there.
hahahah, brilliant!
 

Offline SgtRock

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Greetings EEVBees:

--OK, Erik called it first, no more of topic quotes now that he has got his in. Of course Erik is correct about GHW Bush's speaking ability. Bush was also known for helping the legislature to spend huge amounts of money on federal programs. But let us get back to those neutrions.

"A low voter turnout is an indication of fewer people going to the polls." Al Gore


Best Regards
Clear Ether
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 11:23:41 am by SgtRock »
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Greetings EEVBees:
sarj, you making alot of redundant text in the database. can you be more direct and deliver your msg in the speed of light? formality is good, but i hate it when looking for information. cheers :D
if something can select, how cant it be intelligent? if something is intelligent, how cant it exist?
 

Offline PetrosA

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I think it makes perfect sense that if you do the experiment underground in the dark you'll get faster-than-light results, because there aren't any light particles to slow things down. Simple.
I miss my home I miss my porch, porch
 

Offline IanB

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I think it makes perfect sense that if you do the experiment underground in the dark you'll get faster-than-light results, because there aren't any light particles to slow things down. Simple.

Light is not the problem here

Why is it that people so often fail to get jokes on the Internet?
I'm not an EE--what am I doing here?
 

Offline FreeThinker

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I agree! If It's dark how would the light particles be able to see where they were going? Simples! ;D
Machines were mice and Men were lions once upon a time, but now that it's the opposite it's twice upon a time.
MOONDOG
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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no need smiley. i know it is a joke. Erik... good history recall. i cannot prove nor disprove.
if something can select, how cant it be intelligent? if something is intelligent, how cant it exist?
 

Offline SgtRock

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Dear Mechatrommer:

--I am sorry that you consider salutations (long used in written communications) as waste of space in your database. Please feel free to delete them.

--It comes down I suppose to a matter of taste. Some might consider that a person who used some 2 thousand odd words in his posts on "d*ck size" was wasting space. But not me, unless you bully people or use profanity in a gratuitous and insulting manner, I say "The answer to speech we disagree with is more speech"

"The speed of light is the fastest anything can go relative to the reference of space"  Mechatrommer

Best Regards
Clear Ether
 


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