Author Topic: QNAP/SYNOLOGY/HP - More Server and NAS questions (the next step)  (Read 20734 times)

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Offline rdl

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Re: QNAP or SYNOLOGY? - A NAS selection question
« Reply #25 on: April 14, 2017, 12:45:56 pm »
The HP microserver alternative.....

Hmmm......

Any thoughts there?

As I said previously, I have never thought the G8 Microservers were worth the price HP asks. They are also quite ugly, if that matters, with two-tone case and silly (flame?) pattern punched in the front door. That is just my opinion, of course.

The G7 were often sold for under $250 new. You can now find them used for less. Or more. Unfortunately the sellers often inflate the price because they include drives, memory, or other options that you may not need or want.

 

Offline rob77

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Re: QNAP or SYNOLOGY or (added:) HP microserver? - A NAS selection question
« Reply #26 on: April 14, 2017, 12:51:18 pm »
The HP microserver alternative.....

Hmmm......

Any thoughts there?

As I said previously, I have never thought the G8 Microservers were worth the price HP asks. They are also quite ugly, if that matters, with two-tone case and silly (flame?) pattern punched in the front door. That is just my opinion, of course.

The G7 were often sold for under $250 new. You can now find them used for less. Or more. Unfortunately the sellers often inflate the price because they include drives, memory, or other options that you may not need or want.



you can buy a Gen8 for approx 230Euros including VAT (190euro without tax) with a celeron CPU. the models with xeons are too expensive though. i have a Gen7 which looks better, but the Gen8 is smaller. and probably if you would black spray paint that ugly silver grill of the Gen8 it would look much better too ;)
 

Offline rdl

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Re: QNAP or SYNOLOGY or (added:) HP microserver? - A NAS selection question
« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2017, 01:00:22 pm »
I have two of the Gen 7, I wish I had bought another while they were still being made and on sale. The Gen 8 seems to go on sale on rarely in the US, so are hard to find at a decent price.

Another alternative is the ML10 V2. It goes on sale often here. It's not as small as the Microservers, and still suffers from the incomplete punching of the front panel ventilation holes, but at least it's all black.

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=2RC-001A-000S2

The best choice will depend on what's available locally.
 

Offline BrumbyTopic starter

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Re: QNAP or SYNOLOGY or (added:) HP microserver? - A NAS selection question
« Reply #28 on: April 14, 2017, 01:36:23 pm »
I do have a fondness for flexibility in hardware.
 

Offline 3db

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Re: QNAP or SYNOLOGY? - A NAS selection question
« Reply #29 on: April 14, 2017, 02:36:02 pm »
The HP microserver alternative.....

Hmmm......

Any thoughts there?

depends on what you need. if it's storage only , then install freenas. if you need much more, then just install your favorite linux distro and configure all the stuff you need manually - iscsi, samba, nfs, dlna, virtualization.
i'm running Debian 7 and using the 4 disks in my microserver in  2 RAID1  arrays, LVM on top of the arrays and creating logical volumes for particular services (exporting LVs as iSCSI luns, separate filesystems on on LVs for samba or NFS exports), LVs as disks for the KVM virtual machines.
also running dlna server on the microserver. the microserver is going strong for a long time, only issue i had was a failed disk which i replaced and re-synced the raid.

Freenas can do all that except perhaps the DNLA.
The implementation of  the DNLA standards is extremely variable.
I gave up on it years ago. Perhaps it has improved.
 
 

Offline kripton2035

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Re: QNAP or SYNOLOGY or (added:) HP microserver? - A NAS selection question
« Reply #30 on: April 14, 2017, 02:44:58 pm »
if you want to use your nas for home cinema, the qnap or synology way is easier, just some boxes to check and voilà. DLNA is active.
and also no atom or celeron processors if you want to transcode in real time...
 

Offline rob77

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Re: QNAP or SYNOLOGY? - A NAS selection question
« Reply #31 on: April 14, 2017, 02:47:58 pm »
The HP microserver alternative.....

Hmmm......

Any thoughts there?

depends on what you need. if it's storage only , then install freenas. if you need much more, then just install your favorite linux distro and configure all the stuff you need manually - iscsi, samba, nfs, dlna, virtualization.
i'm running Debian 7 and using the 4 disks in my microserver in  2 RAID1  arrays, LVM on top of the arrays and creating logical volumes for particular services (exporting LVs as iSCSI luns, separate filesystems on on LVs for samba or NFS exports), LVs as disks for the KVM virtual machines.
also running dlna server on the microserver. the microserver is going strong for a long time, only issue i had was a failed disk which i replaced and re-synced the raid.

Freenas can do all that except perhaps the DNLA.
The implementation of  the DNLA standards is extremely variable.
I gave up on it years ago. Perhaps it has improved.

freenas can't do virtualization (run virtual machines) and it's less flexible than a full linux OS installation. but on the other hand freenas is easy to use and does have many plugins like bacula backup, torrent... even minidlna acoording to their web.
 

Offline 3db

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Re: QNAP or SYNOLOGY? - A NAS selection question
« Reply #32 on: April 14, 2017, 03:16:53 pm »
The HP microserver alternative.....

Hmmm......

Any thoughts there?

depends on what you need. if it's storage only , then install freenas. if you need much more, then just install your favorite linux distro and configure all the stuff you need manually - iscsi, samba, nfs, dlna, virtualization.
i'm running Debian 7 and using the 4 disks in my microserver in  2 RAID1  arrays, LVM on top of the arrays and creating logical volumes for particular services (exporting LVs as iSCSI luns, separate filesystems on on LVs for samba or NFS exports), LVs as disks for the KVM virtual machines.
also running dlna server on the microserver. the microserver is going strong for a long time, only issue i had was a failed disk which i replaced and re-synced the raid.

Freenas can do all that except perhaps the DNLA.
The implementation of  the DNLA standards is extremely variable.
I gave up on it years ago. Perhaps it has improved.

freenas can't do virtualization (run virtual machines) and it's less flexible than a full linux OS installation. but on the other hand freenas is easy to use and does have many plugins like bacula backup, torrent... even minidlna acoording to their web.
.

Freenas CAN do virtualisation. I've done it using jails and virtual box on older versions.

The latest Freenas has an even better solution using BHYVE.

I have no problem with the linux concept.
At one time ZFS was shit under Linux. I haven't looked at it for years
The main issue is that if you want to run virtual machines then that typically means using RAM.
If you want good performance from ZFS then that also means lots of RAM
So I tend to use a computer as a NAS  running with perhaps one VM.
BTW If you are interested in virtualisation you might find PROXMOX of interest (Debian based).;

3DB   ;D



 

Offline rob77

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Re: QNAP or SYNOLOGY? - A NAS selection question
« Reply #33 on: April 14, 2017, 03:40:07 pm »
The HP microserver alternative.....

Hmmm......

Any thoughts there?

depends on what you need. if it's storage only , then install freenas. if you need much more, then just install your favorite linux distro and configure all the stuff you need manually - iscsi, samba, nfs, dlna, virtualization.
i'm running Debian 7 and using the 4 disks in my microserver in  2 RAID1  arrays, LVM on top of the arrays and creating logical volumes for particular services (exporting LVs as iSCSI luns, separate filesystems on on LVs for samba or NFS exports), LVs as disks for the KVM virtual machines.
also running dlna server on the microserver. the microserver is going strong for a long time, only issue i had was a failed disk which i replaced and re-synced the raid.

Freenas can do all that except perhaps the DNLA.
The implementation of  the DNLA standards is extremely variable.
I gave up on it years ago. Perhaps it has improved.

freenas can't do virtualization (run virtual machines) and it's less flexible than a full linux OS installation. but on the other hand freenas is easy to use and does have many plugins like bacula backup, torrent... even minidlna acoording to their web.
.

Freenas CAN do virtualisation. I've done it using jails and virtual box on older versions.

The latest Freenas has an even better solution using BHYVE.

I have no problem with the linux concept.
At one time ZFS was shit under Linux. I haven't looked at it for years
The main issue is that if you want to run virtual machines then that typically means using RAM.
If you want good performance from ZFS then that also means lots of RAM
So I tend to use a computer as a NAS  running with perhaps one VM.
BTW If you are interested in virtualisation you might find PROXMOX of interest (Debian based).;

3DB   ;D

jail is NOT virtualization.... jail is less than a container even... i'm talking about full virktualization (VM which can run independent OS - even windows).
virtual box is NOT freenas - virtual box is a different product.. if you install virtualbox to the BSD system freenas is running on ... then we can't even remotely talk about virtualization in freenas.

when talking about freenas we talk about a storage solution with web based management - it's BSD based so you can do anything what you can do with a BSD system... but then you are using the underlaying BSD system , not freenas itself.

ZFS is great in some aspects but it's not the all-mighty cure for everything... it has it's benefits and also drawbacks as every other solution has.
 

Offline rrinker

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Re: QNAP or SYNOLOGY? - A NAS selection question
« Reply #34 on: April 14, 2017, 08:05:07 pm »
It doesn't use any form of RAID - it uses disk pooling. I have drives of all sizes in it, from 1TB to 4TB, and every file is protected by being on at least 2 physical disks. With no special formatting. I can take any disk out of it and attach it to any computer that can recognize NTFS format and read my data.

Congratulations, you're doing nothing which can't be done by anything else. There's good reasons nobody does that, though..

Quote
And 4 disks often leads to RAID 5 which is just bad.

No worse than your 'at least two copies' with a variety of fun exceptions.

Quote
No, the pool does not increase read throughput but it also does not decrease write throughput as the copy process happens int he background. That's probably the ONLY exposure on the whole thing - if i copy a new file to the server and the drive the file landed on dies RIGHT THEN, it likely did not have time to replicate to another drive and is lost.

RAID does not decrease write throughput notably - actually, a decent non-mirror array writes faster than a single member drive. So you're losing out on both + more fragility. And no, it's far from the only exposure - see below.

You're doing nothing in particular other systems can't do (okay, yours is a bit more integrated with Windows, unsurprisingly). I'm glad it works for you, but it's not better.

How does 'your' duplication scheme cope with read errors? Windows typically just panics uselessly. How about corrupted reads? Just go with whatever we read first and assume that single medium is perfect? Will it end up propagating corruption across the duplicates or do you just end up with a pile of inconsistent blocks? Does it ever check for consistency?

 It's certainly no worse than a consumer grade NAS. And it works with Macs, too, if I had any.
This is home use. It's not form commercial grade applications. Our business customers with large storage requirements have true SANs with lots of spindles and all sorts of proper redundancy. As for reliability and recovery, I had ONE disk fail over the 9 years I have been running this, and it didn't crash the server. Windows isn't going to blue screen on a failure of a data only drive. the system disk - very likely. I COULD have made that redundant with hardware level mirroring but I didn't - it's just not that critical, because I can replace that drive and reinstall the OS and remount the old drive pool. Or read any disk like I said, no special driver needed. At the time, this was novel, you couldn't just "do it with everything". Current versions of Windows Server have it built in, but that's at the block level and you CAN'T just stick a disk from the pool in another machine and read it. Most NAS devices support JBOD and various RAID levels, not all do drive pooling. Performance - seems to be a complete non-issue as I easily saturate wired Gb ethernet connections copying files to and from the server, and it can stream multiple HD streams simultaneously - with 5400 RPM low power drives, only the OS system disk is a 7200 RPM drive.
 Guess I am just lucky, plenty of drives, 9 years, only one ever failed. No data loss. Yes, similar to a RAID 5 in that if 2 drives fail at once I will lose data - but not ALL data, just those files that happened to have other copies on the two failed drives. That's significantly better than a RAID 5 when 2 disks fail. And since with one failure it doesn't have to rebuild the entire pool, just make an extra copy of the files that happened to be on the failed drive, recovery time is greatly reduced from a RAID 5 rebuild time, again reducing exposure time. I can read/write it from my Linux box, it just doesn't have access to the backup features, those are limited to Windows and OSX.
 No, it's not perfect, but it has been a solid, stable, and very reliable option. Especially since it's ALSO backed up outside of my house - and I have done test restores so I am confident my choice of backup providers is reliable. The only thing actually on the server that is not replaceable (with varying degrees of effort) are my photos. Should I lose all my MP3's i COULD pull all my CDs out and rip them all again. Though naturally I would like to avoid that.

 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: QNAP or SYNOLOGY? - A NAS selection question
« Reply #35 on: April 14, 2017, 08:23:27 pm »
As for reliability and recovery, I had ONE disk fail over the 9 years I have been running this, and it didn't crash the server. Windows isn't going to blue screen on a failure of a data only drive. the system disk - very likely.

For starters, you've been very lucky. As far as blue screening over drive failures, yes, Windows will, even for non-OS drives. Been there, done that.

Quote
Yes, similar to a RAID 5 in that if 2 drives fail at once I will lose data - but not ALL data, just those files that happened to have other copies on the two failed drives. That's significantly better than a RAID 5 when 2 disks fail.

That very much depends on the number of drives you're using. And it's fairly unpredictable, which just makes matters worse.

How do you know you've suffered no data loss? Is consistency checked across the duplicates? Would it blindly propagate corrupt data when a drive is changed out?
 

Offline BrumbyTopic starter

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Re: QNAP or SYNOLOGY or (added:) HP microserver? - A NAS selection question
« Reply #36 on: April 15, 2017, 12:51:53 am »
I've not looked at getting into virtualization or even the need for media playing.  If I want a media player, I'm more inclined to get a separate box for that and just use this setup as a file server.

At this point I'm only looking for NAS.  I'd like to implement 4 x 4TB drives with two of these set up for RAID 1 and the other two as non RAID.  At some point down the track, I might consider implementing a local web server - but I'll need to swat up before diving into that.

I've found a couple of used N54L HP microservers at prices that are appealing.  I'd have to get the drives of course, but the box seems useful and appears to have some expansion options.

Anybody have any reservations about the N54L?
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: QNAP or SYNOLOGY or (added:) HP microserver? - A NAS selection question
« Reply #37 on: April 15, 2017, 12:57:50 am »
Anybody have any reservations about the N54L?

Limited expansion (1 x16, 1 x1 PCI-E 1.1, lose the x1 if you want the OOB management card.. should you manage to find one), single gigabit ethernet, no AHCI by default, no FBS. Underwhelming CPU.

Takes unregistered ECC DDR3 only, which is a little costly.

That said, my slow old N36L still soldiers on with a total of 12 storage drives connected to it.

Great option if you're willing to do some of the work yourself.
 

Offline BrumbyTopic starter

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Re: QNAP or SYNOLOGY or (added:) HP microserver? - A NAS selection question
« Reply #38 on: April 15, 2017, 01:20:21 am »
OOB management isn't going to be an issue.  The single gigabit ethernet port is not attractive, but in reality I don't think it is going to be much of an impact (for the foreseeable future at least).  One of the units I'm looking at already has 8GB RAM.  The CPU feels like a weak point for the future, but for my NAS needs today, I don't see it being a problem.

One of the units has an SSD with CentOS 7 installed - which I know nothing about. Opinions?


I'm not against doing a bit of work myself - it's just traversing the learning curve on new things where I am a bit apprehensive ... especially when we are talking about data storage.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2017, 01:23:09 am by Brumby »
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: QNAP or SYNOLOGY or (added:) HP microserver? - A NAS selection question
« Reply #39 on: April 15, 2017, 01:21:27 am »
Scrap it and start over, applies to any shipped OS. You didn't install it, you can't trust it.

If you're not familiar with setting this stuff up then use something like FreeNAS.
 

Offline BrumbyTopic starter

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Re: QNAP or SYNOLOGY or (added:) HP microserver? - A NAS selection question
« Reply #40 on: April 15, 2017, 01:26:21 am »
Scrap it and start over, applies to any shipped OS. You didn't install it, you can't trust it.

That just seemed so obvious when you said it.

In fairness, I must say every box I've brought into my network has been built up from bare disks.  Seems like a good approach to maintain.
 

Offline rdl

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Re: QNAP or SYNOLOGY or (added:) HP microserver? - A NAS selection question
« Reply #41 on: April 15, 2017, 02:01:40 am »
I have two Microservers, N36L and N54L. They were designed to be small office file servers. The built in video is adequate, but not for a media server. If all you want one for is a basic NAS, none of their limitations will be noticed. I've never really needed to put anything in the extra slots. I did have an add in video card in the N36L at one time and another time I considered adding a 2 port NIC to the N54L to try out pfSense.

I'm believe they will work with standard memory, but if you decide to try FreeNAS spend the extra and get ECC. FreeNAS loads into memory on start up and runs from there almost completely. Once running it has little need for a disk drive. A standard flash drive works fine for this OS. I use two mirrored, 16 GB each, though a single 8 GB is supposed to work with the version I have.
 

Offline Scrts

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Re: QNAP or SYNOLOGY or (added:) HP microserver? - A NAS selection question
« Reply #42 on: April 15, 2017, 02:07:06 am »
I've once found QNAP TS-251A on Amazon bundled with two 3GB Seagate NAS drives:
https://www.amazon.com/TS-251A-personal-direct-display-TS-251A-2G-US/dp/B06X9DKGMW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1492221769&sr=8-1&keywords=qnap%2Bts-251a&th=1
The catch was that Amazon made a mistake and priced it for bare NAS only. So I've got lucky.

Now in general, this NAS is perfectly OK for home use. It has HDMI, but I don't use it. Upload/Download speeds are OK. It can also transcode. If I want to get more - I can ger HTTP server with SQL on it or just click to install Wordpress. As far as a backup space for photos and movies - works very well.

ANd I am too old and don't have time for FreeNAS DIY anymore. I need something solid, with warranty, support and upgrade capabilities for future.
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: QNAP or SYNOLOGY or (added:) HP microserver? - A NAS selection question
« Reply #43 on: April 15, 2017, 02:13:49 am »
I have two Microservers, N36L and N54L. They were designed to be small office file servers. The built in video is adequate, but not for a media server. If all you want one for is a basic NAS, none of their limitations will be noticed. I've never really needed to put anything in the extra slots. I did have an add in video card in the N36L at one time and another time I considered adding a 2 port NIC to the N54L to try out pfSense.

I'm believe they will work with standard memory, but if you decide to try FreeNAS spend the extra and get ECC. FreeNAS loads into memory on start up and runs from there almost completely. Once running it has little need for a disk drive. A standard flash drive works fine for this OS. I use two mirrored, 16 GB each, though a single 8 GB is supposed to work with the version I have.

Yes, I believe non-ECC will work, but if you're going to all the effort of a dedicated NAS, ECC's worth it. I refuse to fit non-ECC to any machine capable of taking ECC unless the cost is prohibitive. In the case of the majority of semi-recent equipment that's registered DDR3, which is so cheap it's not funny.

Those extra slots come in handy if 4 drives isn't enough :) Sadly there's very, very few usable eSATA cards and the prices there are already horrific enough, moving to SAS is enough to scar you for life.
 

Offline BrumbyTopic starter

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Re: QNAP or SYNOLOGY or (added:) HP microserver? - A NAS selection question
« Reply #44 on: April 15, 2017, 03:08:31 am »
This unit has 8GB RAM already installed.  Don't know what sort, but I won't be planning on replacing it at this point.  If it's ECC, then bonus!

There's also an eSata connection on the back, which I've seen being used for a 6th drive - just run the cable back inside the box for a self-contained solution.  That's a nice option.
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: QNAP or SYNOLOGY or (added:) HP microserver? - A NAS selection question
« Reply #45 on: April 15, 2017, 03:10:20 am »
There's also an eSata connection on the back, which I've seen being used for a 6th drive - just run the cable back inside the box for a self-contained solution.  That's a nice option.

By default it's not hot-pluggable (thanks, HP, real clever). And it'll never do FBS, which means in practical terms, it is one drive only.
 

Offline BrumbyTopic starter

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Re: QNAP or SYNOLOGY or (added:) HP microserver? - A NAS selection question
« Reply #46 on: April 15, 2017, 03:55:36 am »
Non hot swap/pluggable isn't an issue for me - at least at the moment.

FBS?
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: QNAP or SYNOLOGY or (added:) HP microserver? - A NAS selection question
« Reply #47 on: April 15, 2017, 03:58:55 am »
Non hot swap/pluggable isn't an issue for me - at least at the moment.

Well, it'll be a right pain when you get around to plugging something in.. Thankfully, there's a fixed BIOS around.

Quote
FBS?

FIS (Frame Information Structure) Based Switching. Required for port multipliers to be of any practical use whatsoever. Without it, you may as well use USB. Again, only an issue if you want to use multiple external drives, but worth mentioning.
 

Offline BrumbyTopic starter

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Re: QNAP or SYNOLOGY or (added:) HP microserver? - A NAS selection question
« Reply #48 on: April 15, 2017, 04:11:46 am »
There was mention of an updated BIOS and hot-swap.  Might check into that if I get it.

Thanks for the FBS explanation ... I was getting some rather bizarre offerings through Google.... ???

There are no plans for stringing up multiple external disks.  Just taking it as one is enough of a bonus.  If I did want to stretch things, I might look at something like an ICY DOCK and a SAS/SATA card and cable... maybe.  But if I get to that stage, I might reevaluate the whole setup.
 

Offline BrumbyTopic starter

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Re: QNAP or SYNOLOGY or (added:) HP microserver? - A NAS selection question
« Reply #49 on: April 15, 2017, 03:06:19 pm »
Well, I have a few more answers.  The N54L has 8GB of ECC RAM and has had a BIOS update to allow hot swap.

I've organised to check it out.
 


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