RANT: People calling themselves engineers.

[Wartex]

I've noticed there is a new trend now to call yourself an "engineer" even though there is no real education+experience behind it, and to a lesser extent people use their engineering degree as a blanket across several fields. Having an oscilloscope at home and knowing how to solder doesn't make you an engineer. Being an electronics repair tech does not mean you are an engineer. Having a mechanical engineering degree does not mean you are an electrical engineer. You just look like a pathetic asshole when you misrepresent yourself on various websites and give interviews. I won't point fingers but there are members on this forum who did this (Don't worry, it's not Dave). You look like 15 years old script kiddies that call themselves hackers. Chris Tarnovsky is a real hacker, and even he doesn't refer to himself as such. Jim Williams was a real engineer, and he never flaunted it. Unless you have a proper degree, from an accredited 5+ year university and not a shitty rural 2-year accelerated evening college with online courses, published works and a ton of experience please, for the love of FSM and all that is holy, don't refer to yourself as an engineer. You might be a great electronics tech and DIYer, but you ain't an engineer.

EDIT: Since this has many people worked up: All I ask is that you don't call yourself engineers if you got nothing to show for it. Is that so damn hard to grasp? Do you really believe that every electronics geek with an arduino and some community college is justified to go around and refer to himself as electronics engineer? Seriously? How is that elitist? By your logic, everyone with a hacksaw is a plumber.

Regarding Jim Williams: yes I'm aware he had no engineering degree. He didn't go around calling himself an engineer in his MIT days like the butthurt people in this thread, did he? That was exactly my point!

At what point does one become an engineer? Do you set your own bar?

All I ask for is PLEASE, don't proactively tell anyone you are an engineer if you are not. I'm sorry if this conflicts with your warped reality.

EDIT2: Clarification: I'm not saying that years of experience and published works is meaningless if you don't have a piece of paper. I'm stating:

1. Please don't proactively TELL people you are an engineer just because you do electronics.

2. Performing series of successful surgeries on animals does not automatically make you a veterinarian.

[8086]

There was already a thread like this, but I can't seem to find it.

Anyway, be an elitist dickhead if you like, but don't expect everyone to agree. I personally think that ability has little to do with formal education, and much more to do with the person's interest.

[amspire]

I have a degree in Electrical Engineering, but if I was working along side an unqualified person who was doing the same work, I would call him or her an engineer. If they are employed as an engineer, they are an engineer. My father became president of the Institute of Chartered Accounts here in Australia and he was very involved in establishing the academic qualifications and standards for chartered accountants. For a while, he worked with the Tax Department and made rulings in Tax law, which often meant setting legal precedents. He had no university degree.

Who cares about the bit of paper? It doesn't mean much. Most of the learning is done on the job anyway.

Richard

[Uncle Vernon]

Who cares about the bit of paper?

That'd be the elitist dickheads mentioned previously.

I have a degree in Electrical Engineering, but if I was working along side an unqualified person who was doing the same work, I would call him or her an engineer. If they are employed as an engineer, they are an engineer.

The distinction being your colleague is not a qualified engineer. A distinction that seldom matters to anyone other than the afore mentioned elitist dickheads.

Regurgitated topic. Not much more need be said.

[IanB]

At the end of the day you judge people by their abilities. For instance, I may not know about Richard (amspire)'s qualifications, but I do find he seems to know what he's talking about. Which means I inherently put more trust in what he writes than I might with other posters (not meaning anyone in particular, btw).

[firewalker]

I have met engineers with balls the size of Australia with out any kind of degree (as far the degree part).

As his name came up, what degree Jim Williams had?

Alexander.

[8086]

It would seem Jim Williams was self-taught.

http://www.linear.com/williams.php

Just goes to show... 

[Uncle Vernon]

A Degree, Engineering, or otherwise represents a considerable personal (and financial) commitment and sacrifice.

Commitment yes. Financial is debatable and purely dependant on circumstance.
For some the cost of a degree doesn't even make a dent in Daddy's petty cash. Sacrifice? What friggin sacrifice? It's a career choice, if you want to be a cowboy you learn to shoot and ride a horse, want to be a copter pilot it helps to learn attain a pilots licence.

Anyone earning such a qualification deserves some respect for that reason alone.

Yes to the same degree a poorly educated cleaner deserves respect for working awful hours for pittance wages to feed his family. Students are studying degrees for their own future advantage, good on them, where does this "swoon look he has a degree" evolve from?

A Degree, a good one, should bestow on the recipient a sound understanding of the fundamentals of the particular discipline. It is a starting point to  further learning.

Agreed, a pity it's all too often assumed by the holder to be a certificate of attainment of all knowledge. A qualification is a great thing to have, but it is far from the only way to achieve excellence or competence in engineering or any field.

[BravoV]

............<snip>...
.. Jim Williams was a real engineer, and he never flaunted it.  Unless you have a proper degree, from an accredited 5+ year university.......

It would seem Jim Williams was self-taught.

http://www.linear.com/williams.php

This is really embarassing. 

[amspire]

A Degree, Engineering, or otherwise represents a considerable personal (and financial) commitment and sacrifice. Anyone earning such a qualification deserves some respect for that reason alone.

A Degree, a good one, should bestow on the recipient a sound understanding of the fundamentals of the particular discipline. It is a starting point to  further learning.

That is true, and the fact that someone has done a 3 or 4 year course to get the degree does mean something.

But I also remember from when I was at Uni that the compulsory part of the course in say electronic design were really pretty basic, and if a qualified engineer chose all the computing and microcontroller type electives in the later years, then it is possible that they may have a life time experience of less then a hundred hours total on bench with a circuit, oscilloscope, DMM and soldering iron.

They may know less about practical electronic design then a keen 16 year old who loves building electronic projects.

Richard.

[Armin_Balija]

A Degree, Engineering, or otherwise represents a considerable personal (and financial) commitment and sacrifice. Anyone earning such a qualification deserves some respect for that reason alone.

A Degree, a good one, should bestow on the recipient a sound understanding of the fundamentals of the particular discipline. It is a starting point to  further learning.

That is true, and the fact that someone has done a 3 or 4 year course to get the degree does mean something.

But I also remember from when I was at Uni that the compulsory part of the course in say electronic design were really pretty basic, and if a qualified engineer chose all the computing and microcontroller type electives in the later years, then it is possible that they may have a life time experience of less then a hundred hours total on bench with a circuit, oscilloscope, DMM and soldering iron.

They may know less about practical electronic design then a keen 16 year old who loves building electronic projects.

Richard.

It's people like you Richard that I look up to. Sure I'm still a student, but I feel as though my passion and willingness to pay for everything with my hard earned money even though I make very very little to further my own understanding of my career choice is what sets me apart from most of the people in my class. They see it as a job or something that'll make them money but rarely do I hear of them going so far as to buy their own oscilloscopes or buying their own books to read in their past times. I do this because I love it and whether or not I pursue higher education in the field is a moot point to me.

I just hope I can achieve half the knowledge that you, Dave, and others on these forums have. I try my best. I build, I fail, I move on and keep going. Thanks for being open minded and not being elitest. You too Uncle Vernon, my hats off to all of you.

Armin

[EEVblog]

The distinction being your colleague is not a qualified engineer. A distinction that seldom matters to anyone other than the afore mentioned elitist dickheads.

THere is another elitist dickhead level beyond that. Those who look down if you aren't a registered member of some engineering institution, and/or didn't go to the right university (common in the US).

Dave.

[EEVblog]

Jim Williams was a real engineer, and he never flaunted it.

Obviously you haven't heard, Jim Williams did not have any formal qualifications in the field

Dave.

[slateraptor]

............<snip>...
.. Jim Williams was a real engineer, and he never flaunted it.  Unless you have a proper degree, from an accredited 5+ year university.......

It would seem Jim Williams was self-taught.

http://www.linear.com/williams.php

This is really embarassing. 

Don't kid yourself. Jim Williams spent 10-11 years (depending on your source) teaching and performing research at MIT. Reference contributors section in this or this. Besides, there isn't a single person on this forum who's even remotely comparable to Jim Williams.

That is true, and the fact that someone has done a 3 or 4 year course to get the degree does mean something.

But I also remember from when I was at Uni that the compulsory part of the course in say electronic design were really pretty basic, and if a qualified engineer chose all the computing and microcontroller type electives in the later years, then it is possible that they may have a life time experience of less then a hundred hours total on bench with a circuit, oscilloscope, DMM and soldering iron.

They may know less about practical electronic design then a keen 16 year old who loves building electronic projects.

Richard.

To clarify a few points, 3-4 years to complete an engineering degree is exceptional performance; a proper EE degree is a 4-5.5 year affair as far as U.S. universities with ABET accreditation are concerned. I've read that in other countries, it's against the law to refer to oneself as an engineer without having completed rigorous formalities--a protected professional title in the same manner as Professor and Doctor.

One of my professors once went on a mid-lecture corporate culture rant about his internship experience at IBM as a grad student. He summarily concluded with something like, "I didn't go through 5 years of pain and suffering to earn an engineering degree only to work for a company where business majors and janitors are endowed with the same title." It's a rite of passage that isn't easily achieved.

Sacrifice? What friggin sacrifice? It's a career choice, if you want to be a cowboy you learn to shoot and ride a horse, want to be a copter pilot it helps to learn attain a pilots licence.

I suspect you've never been through a proper engineering curriculum. Normal 16+ hour days of study and working on projects. Missing out on football games and student life semester after semester after semester just so you don't fall behind. Breaking into the locked engineering building on weekends to use equipment while your non-engineering friends are partying. Sleeping in the lab. There's a reason why engineering has less than a minority presence amongst Greek student life. There's a reason why the engineering building parking lot is always packed on weekends and holidays (even when the building is locked down) while the rest of campus is barren. Yes, it's a career choice and yes, we love what we do, but you are in no position to say that sacrifices aren't made.

[8086]

Don't kid yourself. Jim Williams spent 10-11 years (depending on your source) teaching and performing research at MIT. Reference contributors section in this or this. Besides, there isn't a single person on this forum who's even remotely comparable to Jim Williams.

So what you are saying is that he was really, really good. Good enough to teach and contribute to research projects. All without any formal engineering qualifications.

[Rufus]

It would seem Jim Williams was self-taught.

http://www.linear.com/williams.php

Just goes to show... 

Is it so surprising that people can 'teach' themselves? Especially now there is such a vast amount of readily available information on the internet.

I quit half way through a 4 year degree because too much of what I was being taught was crap. I got a two year head start on my classmates doing stuff instead of being taught about it, and I got paid for it. Sadly today being allowed to 'do' without formal qualification is harder.

[8086]

Is it so surprising that people can 'teach' themselves? Especially now there is such a vast amount of readily available information on the internet.

I quit half way through a 4 year degree because too much of what I was being taught was crap. I got a two year head start on my classmates doing stuff instead of being taught about it, and I got paid for it. Sadly today being allowed to 'do' without formal qualification is harder.

It's absolutely no surprise. I have some formal higher education in EE myself, but I am taking a break from my degree to do some stuff on my own, gain some business knowledge, and get down and dirty with electronics. All things that for some reason seem to be missing from the degree. I realised pretty early on that doing the degree is not just for me, it's for other people to judge me, and I don't like that one bit.

[BravoV]

Don't kid yourself. Jim Williams spent 10-11 years (depending on your source) teaching and performing research at MIT. Reference contributors section in this or this. Besides, there isn't a single person on this forum who's even remotely comparable to Jim Williams.

So what you are saying is that he was really, really good. Good enough to teach and contribute to research projects. All without any formal engineering qualifications.

I guess it is, other wise it will become moot point. 

[HLA-27b]

One thing that I didn't understand at the time was something my teacher told me:


"You don't become an architect before 40 - not enough hours in a day."

How right he was...

[amspire]

One of my professors once went on a mid-lecture corporate culture rant about his internship experience at IBM as a grad student. He summarily concluded with something like, "I didn't go through 5 years of pain and suffering to earn an engineering degree only to work for a company where business majors and janitors are endowed with the same title." It's a rite of passage that isn't easily achieved.

I just don't care less about the fact that someone went through "5 years of pain". That is his problem. If someone is capable, then I admire them. If a janitor with no degree is the most capable engineer, then he deserves to be promoted over the top of less capable qualified people.

Anyway, I just don't believe word this "Professor" is saying.  His 5 years of undergraduate study were all "pain and suffering". And he is still at the university? Either he really had a ball for five years and loved it.

Or he is some sort of weird masochist, and we can only hope he gets better soon.

Richard

[Uncle Vernon]

[I suspect you've never been through a proper engineering curriculum.

Then you aren't being much of an engineer.  A good engineer deals in facts and not suspicions. You can surmise all you wish about mine or anyone Else's skills, education and sacrifice. What basis to you have to suggest the pathway you have taken involved more/less sacrifices than any other person. 

Normal 16+ hour days of study and working on projects. Missing out on football games and student life semester after semester after semester just so you don't fall behind. Breaking into the locked engineering building on weekends to use equipment while your non-engineering friends are partying. Sleeping in the lab.

Oh poor you! Your struggle is somehow more than that of some enthusiast working two rubbish jobs to support a certificate qualification? Your struggle far more important than that of the enthusiast going it alone and trying to educate themself while supporting a family? Your struggle is greater than those who throw their very existence into an engineering based business putting their homes on the line, to guarantee wages for the technicians, tradesmen and engineers they employ? Is four to five years of effort supposed to cover a lifetime in the workforce? Take your hand of it!

There's a reason why engineering has less than a minority presence amongst Greek student life.

Studying, business, law, medicine, etc pays more, studying exercise physiology gets more girls? Studying engineering is far more likely to have you associated with perpetual time wasters, alcoholics and dropkicks the discipline unfortunately also attracts.

There's a reason why the engineering building parking lot is always packed on weekends and holidays

perhaps it is indication that the curriculum is lacking in the practical skills needed to maintain a typical ageing student motor car in a running condition.

Yes, it's a career choice and yes, we love what we do, but you are in no position to say that sacrifices aren't made.

What is it, that puts you in a position that says your sacrifice is any greater than that of so many others? If you love it so much, is it how can it equate with the sacrifice of the enthusiast who works a job he hates to fund his hobby or the quest for entry into an industry they aspire to?
Remember not everyone had the same path or opportunity to a tertiary qualification you did? Think of that next time you want to bang on about sacrifice!

Don't kid yourself. Jim Williams spent 10-11 years (depending on your source) teaching and performing research at MIT. Reference contributors section in this or this. Besides, there isn't a single person on this forum who's even remotely comparable to Jim Williams.

Yes and that is thanks to people in those institutions who did not have an elitist boys club mentality. Engineering and education professionals who could recognise talent, skill and ability.  If it was left up to the "we deserve respect set", much of the brilliance of Mr Williams would never have been shared throughout the community and industry. How do you know there is no one comparable to Mr Williams on this forum, are you a qualified psychic and and  an engineer? Hell there are a lot of better qualified people here if that's the yardstick. 
If you look at one of the greatest and most respected attributes of Mr Williams it was his skill to explain complex circuits in a simple and readily understood manner, something those hung up getting respect could never hope to emulate.

[Wartex]

Hahaha, I like all the wannabe RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGEEEEE! Look at all the self-appointed engineers coming out of the woodwork.

First of all, I'm not an engineer (yet), so calling me "elitist" is dumb. My point is that getting a degree is a lot of hard work and sacrifice. I have a lot of respect for people who went thru the guts of the educational system. The point I made about "real" schools is that these days you can literally buy a degree and it means fuck all. I agree with the point that Dave made about belonging to a particular association - it's meaningless. As for the "right" school - an accredited school with history is good enough. I never said you MUST go to MIT or degree is not valid. But if you do the online evening classes - come the fuck on! Do you really believe your education is just as good?

You know what you all naysayers sound like? Like people who want to be medical doctors without proper education. Remember that defibrillator Mike took apart? Would you prefer to be revived with the one built by a person with years of education from a university, hundreds published works and experience or a guy who bought a bunch of shit from Sparkfun and goes around calling himself an engineer?

Regarding Jim Williams: He didn't call himself an engineer in his MIT days like the self-appointed losers here, now did he?

James M. "Jim" Williams was an analog circuit designer and technical author who worked for the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. He wrote over 350 publications relating to analog circuit design, including 5 books, 21 application notes for National Semiconductor, 62 application notes for Linear Technology, and over 125 articles for EDN Magazine.

Last time I checked, none of the self-appointed engineers who gave interviews on eeweb and other sites have next to none published works and are less than obscure in the large scheme of things.

Chill out people. All I said is that every second charlatan is an engineer these days. Sorry I hurt your egos.

[ronwoch]

Hmmmm. All the talk of sacrifice makes me cringe. Try being a proffesional soldier. My hobby on the weekends is to make leds blink. Or occasionally smoke. Either way, I am by no means an "engineer" nor do I think I will ever achieve that level. I deeply respect those with that level of skill and knowledge, and do my best to learn from them. What piece of paper they have with their name on it, nor what they did to earn it, matters not one bit to me.
My job is to protect my friends and family. I get paid for it, some say too much, some say not enough. I also risk my life for it. Not as little nor as often as people think. It is part of what I do and I accept it.
When people come up and thank me for what I do, it makes me uncomfortable. I do what I do for my own reasons, some selfish, some not. But not for 'recognition' or anyone else's reasons.
I certainly respect those who are better than me at something. I find it mind-boggling though, that someone would demand respect for having a sheet of parchment with their name on it. I have far too many officers who think that way, and in the end, their four years at a service  acadamy, and their degrees in architecture to engineering to basket weaving still do nothing to make them as good a soldier as me, an NCO with nearly a decade of experience. But I respect their knowledge in things I don't know, and do my best to learn from them, as I hope they are able to learn from me.
In the end, the only thing that matters is what a person is like, what they can contribute, are they willing to share what they know to make the world a better place? Or are they simply seeking 'recognition' for having their name on a piece of paper?
/rant

[8086]

Wartex. It seems to me that you aspire to be one of these elitist engineer types you speak of in future.

Perhaps it is not our egos you need worry about, but your own? 

[PeteInTexas]

Fellas, don't forget to think about liability and lawsuits.

Say you have a sharp self taught employee.  The company is so impressed with him or her they give him the engineer title.  The company let him or her work on the radiation dosing module of that big nuclear medicine cure-o-matic contract they just won.  A bunch of patients develop cancer due to radiation overdose.  They lawyer up and sue.  They find out the guy  or gal that designed the dosing module did not even go to college.  Damages sought quintuples bankrupting the company.  Your guy or gal can't even claim he was following best practices because, as a non-member of any relevant "societies" and "associations", how would he or she know what they are?  What credible member of such organization would vouch for a non-members credentials?

There is a reason formal education is important.  There is a reason professional organizations exists.