Road signs suck. What if we got rid of them all? Or... go open-source?

[tpowell1830]

This is an example of open-source, AKA chaos...

[cdev]

Perhaps for a time non-autonomous cars will coexist with autonomous cars in some highways, but we should expect that once roads start being converted in large numbers to autonomous driving, its as likely as not that autonomous control will soon be required to use them. People in poor countries will likely get great deals on used cars, when people in the rich countries change over.

[Red Squirrel]

I'd say the current system of signs and stop lights works, but with better technology available than when these systems were first thought up, I think it could probably be improved.  Like stop light systems that learn/adapt to traffic flow, and sync together to create better traffic flow.  Also, some that convert into stop signs at times of the day when there is less traffic.

In fact simple law changes could help.  Make it legal to go through a red light if you stopped, there is no other traffic around, and you looked both ways.  Basically, when you are at a red light and you are the only person at the intersection, you treat it like a stop sign.  This could be a very simple law change that would improve traffic flow.  Things like that could help a lot.

But there is one thing that would rule everything... SOLAR FREAKING ROADWAYS!   

[vk6zgo]

Years ago, when I spent some time in England, I found one roundabout with a hill in the middle of it.
Nice, if you liked living dangerously!

The "shared space" idea, is actually what many of my generation of Australians had as a "de facto" system.


Many roads in non urban areas didn't have "footpaths" (as we called them back then), alongside the roadway, so the default was to walk along the verge, or when that was not possible, walk on the roadway, facing oncoming traffic.
This meant walking along the right hand edge of the paved roadway.
When a car approached, you were meant to step off the road, &  if you couldn't safely continue your walk there, stop until the vehicle had passed you.


With this method, you were much more likely to see the car, or for them to see you.
We knew that it is much easier for a pedestrian to see a car, than vice versa, especially at night.


Today, many people don't understand why we did this, as they assume they have the absolute right to walk on any part of the road they may desire to.
When someone gets hit by a car, they are surprised!!

[tggzzz]

Your anecdotes about Australia touch on two key points.

First, the UK Department for Transport notes that pedestrians use share spaces as their proponents claim, provided there  are fewer than 100 vehicles/hour. Unfortunately shared space zealots are now claiming they should be installed in much higher traffic densities.

Secondly, driver expectations. Drivers subconsciously pick up clues about how to behave by recognising familiar clues, e.g. kerbs and median white lines. When absent,  driver don't behave sensibly, e.g. absently mindedly crossing onto pavements and crossing median lines into oncoming traffic. The shared space mantra "very dangerous is safe" relies on drivers recognising danger i.e.the absence of familiar features. It manifestly fails  important cases.

[nes999]

As a sign maker I dont like the idea of zero signs. I like eating and don't look good standing in the unemployment lines!

We just recently got 2 roundabouts in my area. Quick question, is there supposed to be decoration the center and along the edges of a round about? Ours is designed in such away you can see a car until its 1-1.5 car lengths away from you. I love the idea but I feel like at least a partial line of sight would greatly increase efficiency.

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk

[nes999]

I'd say the current system of signs and stop lights works, but with better technology available than when these systems were first thought up, I think it could probably be improved.  Like stop light systems that learn/adapt to traffic flow, and sync together to create better traffic flow.  Also, some that convert into stop signs at times of the day when there is less traffic.

In fact simple law changes could help.  Make it legal to go through a red light if you stopped, there is no other traffic around, and you looked both ways.  Basically, when you are at a red light and you are the only person at the intersection, you treat it like a stop sign.  This could be a very simple law change that would improve traffic flow.  Things like that could help a lot.

But there is one thing that would rule everything... SOLAR FREAKING ROADWAYS!   

I can't speak of other countries but the US has been doing that for along time. In my area when the High school lets out the traffic lights giving the green light from the school additional time, thus helping flow traffic from the school.

Many of our traffic lights have cameras that read traffic and if no one is coming the other direction it will automatically change. This is really nice so you don't end up waiting at a stop light when no one is around.

In IL, we have a law where if you are stopped at a red light for x amount time you are allowed to go assuming it is safe to do so. This is supposed to be used for I'd the traffic signal doesnt pick you up. However it sometines get used as a way to move faster.

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk

[CJay]

As a sign maker I dont like the idea of zero signs. I like eating and don't look good standing in the unemployment lines!

We just recently got 2 roundabouts in my area. Quick question, is there supposed to be decoration the center and along the edges of a round about? Ours is designed in such away you can see a car until its 1-1.5 car lengths away from you. I love the idea but I feel like at least a partial line of sight would greatly increase efficiency.

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk

I can't vouch for the numbers but apparently it's safer to block oncoming traffic's view of  a roundabout until you're actually at the entry point, the reasoning is that if you can't see oncoming traffic and you know there's a junction ahead you're less likely to take a chance and misjudge it.

[vk6zgo]

As a sign maker I dont like the idea of zero signs. I like eating and don't look good standing in the unemployment lines!

We just recently got 2 roundabouts in my area. Quick question, is there supposed to be decoration the center and along the edges of a round about? Ours is designed in such away you can see a car until its 1-1.5 car lengths away from you. I love the idea but I feel like at least a partial line of sight would greatly increase efficiency.

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk

I can't vouch for the numbers but apparently it's safer to block oncoming traffic's view of  a roundabout until you're actually at the entry point, the reasoning is that if you can't see oncoming traffic and you know there's a junction ahead you're less likely to take a chance and misjudge it.

In most roundabouts I've seen & driven through, in Oz, the UK, & Ireland, a significant percentage of people just come barging through, so that if you can't see them, they will crash into you!

We have a "mini-roundabout" at the end of our street where, if you give way to one car in the roundabout, you are stuck there, as a "train" of cars charge through, with only a metre or two between them.

They justify this as their being "on your right", although that isn't the rule in roundabouts, despite what "their old grandaddy told them back in 1905"!

One thing I've never got my mind round, is that in some places, traffic lights go amber in both directions during their cycle.
A "chancer" on each road going through on the amber...
 

[6PTsocket]

I thought the whole idea of doing away with traffic signals was to force people to take responsibiliy.for their driving. Under the signal system people cede their resposibility to the signals. It just turned green so I am going while the fellow in the cross road thinks I can squeeze through this changing light. CRASH!! With no signals both drivers are forced to look around and see if it is safe to cross the intersection. As for roundabouts (traffic circles in  the US), my state New Jersey has done away with many of them in favor of jug handles and traffic signals. I think it is a good move, i find them very stressful.

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[tggzzz]

I thought the whole idea of doing away with traffic signals was to force people to take responsibiliy.for their driving. Under the signal system people cede their resposibility to the signals. It just turned green so I am going while the fellow in the cross road thinks I can squeeze through this changing light. CRASH!! With no signals both drivers are forced to look around and see if it is safe to cross the intersection. As for roundabouts (traffic circles in  the US), my state New Jersey has done away with many of them in favor of jug handles and traffic signals. I think it is a good move, i find them very stressful.

The whole concept relies on drivers being competent and alert. Unfortunately that isn't always the case: you shouldn't wear dogmatic rose-tinted spectacles where other people's safety is concerned. You must consider typical human behaviour. Consider these common driver failures which endanger other people:

• driver adjusting audio system
• driver chatting to passengers
• driver using cellphones
• driver drunk, or otherwise under the influence
• driver deliberately being reckless due to excess testosterone or showing off
• driver just inexplicably stupid

Additionally, drivers and pedestrians rely on subliminal cues when driving. Examples:

• In my local city they kept the kerb but had the same cobbled surface for the pavement and footway. Many pedestrians walked out in front of 7.5 ton busses without looking. And that was before the smartphone "head down" effect!
• In my local village there are many parked cars on a narrow road, so drivers have to cross the centreline. That used to be done with a minimum of fuss, with cars going in each direction without problems. Now the median white line has been removed. Consequently drivers aren't sure (or don't even realise) where they are on the road (especially at night), and don't notice how far they are across the road. Consequently I have had to do several emergency stops where before I never had to do any.

There are several examples where, after experience and time to get used to new shared spaces, the inhabitants want to revert to the old ways. And in some places they are doing just that.

Summary: while there are, arguably, too many road signs, throwing them all out would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater - i.e. unbalanced.

[tszaboo]

How about no. How about, there is a part where cars go, there is a part, where pedestrians go. Maybe there is a part for cyclists, if there isnt, then GTFO cyclist from that road. How about no magic roundabouts. How about no roads like this:

I have set up my GPS in my car to permanently avoid some roads. Most of them are rondabouts (with 6 lanes, and random shit in it), and shared spaces.

Idiot road designers think about drivers as this is some kind of a social experiments. Bugger off. Give me proper roads, and roads to avoid towns and cities. I pay my taxes for that.

[tggzzz]

How about no.

No to what?

(Context can be included via the "quote" button; too many people forget that)

[tggzzz]

How about no magic roundabouts.

The two "magic roundabouts" I've bumbled into were a simple delight to use.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Swindon/@51.5629239,-1.7720195,181m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x4871444f3ddbe4e5:0xa556bf37e9c5949a!8m2!3d51.5557739!4d-1.7797176

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Hemel+Hempstead/@51.7463753,-0.4736289,180m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x487640d05cd71ac1:0xf0e07f1fcfdff2b2!8m2!3d51.753241!4d-0.448632

[bd139]

Hemel one is a dick on a Saturday night. It's got a combination of Uber drivers, local taxi drivers, idiots dropping people off and drunken zombies navigating it.

Interestingly though, I went to Guildford last week and I noticed that every single protective fence near roundabouts, crossings etc was mangled. Literally every one has had a car pile through it. 

[tszaboo]

How about no.

No to what?

(Context can be included via the "quote" button; too many people forget that)

The topic's title is a question...

[cdev]

choose life!

[Monkeh]

Under the signal system people cede their resposibility to the signals.

The hell you say. Drivers do not cede their responsibility to anything.

[tggzzz]

Interestingly though, I went to Guildford last week and I noticed that every single protective fence near roundabouts, crossings etc was mangled. Literally every one has had a car pile through it. 

Ouch. Just as well they hit that metalwork rather than other metalwork containing "innocent third parties".

In Sicily, where the signs are few and people behave as if everywhere is a shared space, a numerical majority of the cars have significant bodywork damage - up to and including missing front wings!

Shared space zealots don't like to think about that, and some idiots even claim that it is a great idea because it works in India. They can't even be bothered to look up the accident stats, which are 10-20 times worse than here.

[bd139]

Couldn't agree more.

Here's 30 minutes of India: